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more protien better...or not?

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  • ChieflrgChieflrg Posts: 7,882Member Member Posts: 7,882Member Member
    Protien beneficial to help retain muscle in a cut.

    Protien suppliments are taken blindly by less experienced people thinking it's some sort of magic to build muscle.

    Many people ignore carbs intake when bulking thinking protien needs to be higher than on a cut.
  • senecarrsenecarr Posts: 5,377Member Member Posts: 5,377Member Member
    AnvilHead wrote: »
    auddii wrote: »
    GsKiki wrote: »
    I think high protein diet works well for some people, not so well for others. It's about finding what works the best for you. I prefer a nice balance in carbs, fat and protein. I found that's just what works for me best.
    Agreed. If you do your research OP, too much protein turns to fat IF you don't burn it off enough.

    To much of any calories can turn into fat.
    Not if you're eating correctly...?

    What do you mean by correctly?
    One can be eating a lot of protein but not consuming too much calories

    In which case the protein (or any other macronutrient) wouldn't be stored as fat. There is no net fat storage when in a caloric deficit regardless of the macronutrient profile.

    Also, while the pathway for protein being stored as fat exists, it's extremely inefficient and basically doesn't happen: http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/nutrition/excess-protein-and-fat-storage-qa.html/
    ...Which means that the odds of protein being converted to fat in any quantitatively meaningful fashion is simply not going to happen. Certain amino acids are processed to a great degree in the liver (as I discuss in The Protein Book) and this can produce glucose, ketones and a few other things. But triglycerides (the storage form of ‘fat’) isn’t one of them.

    I imagine that if protein were going to be converted to fat, it would first have to be converted to glucose and only if the amount produced were then in excess of daily maintenance requirements would there be conversion to fat. But as noted above, this simply isn’t going to happen under any even reasonably normal circumstances. No human could eat enough protein on a daily basis for it to occur.

    What will happen, as discussed in Nutrient Intake, Nutrient Storage and Nutrient Oxidation. is that amino acid oxidation (burning for energy) will go up somewhat although, as discussed in that article, it’s a slow process and isn’t complete.

    So, as noted above, while the pathway exists for protein to be stored as fat, and folks will continue to claim that ‘excess protein just turns to fat’, it’s really just not going to happen under any sort of real-world situation. Certainly we can dream up odd theoretical situations where it might but those won’t apply to 99.9% of real-world situations.

    I'm not sure there exists a direct metabolic pathway in humans to go directly from protein to fat. I believe it would require gluconeogenesis from protein first, and then de novo lipogensis of glucose.
  • AnvilHeadAnvilHead Posts: 18,543Member Member Posts: 18,543Member Member
    senecarr wrote: »
    AnvilHead wrote: »
    auddii wrote: »
    GsKiki wrote: »
    I think high protein diet works well for some people, not so well for others. It's about finding what works the best for you. I prefer a nice balance in carbs, fat and protein. I found that's just what works for me best.
    Agreed. If you do your research OP, too much protein turns to fat IF you don't burn it off enough.

    To much of any calories can turn into fat.
    Not if you're eating correctly...?

    What do you mean by correctly?
    One can be eating a lot of protein but not consuming too much calories

    In which case the protein (or any other macronutrient) wouldn't be stored as fat. There is no net fat storage when in a caloric deficit regardless of the macronutrient profile.

    Also, while the pathway for protein being stored as fat exists, it's extremely inefficient and basically doesn't happen: http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/nutrition/excess-protein-and-fat-storage-qa.html/
    ...Which means that the odds of protein being converted to fat in any quantitatively meaningful fashion is simply not going to happen. Certain amino acids are processed to a great degree in the liver (as I discuss in The Protein Book) and this can produce glucose, ketones and a few other things. But triglycerides (the storage form of ‘fat’) isn’t one of them.

    I imagine that if protein were going to be converted to fat, it would first have to be converted to glucose and only if the amount produced were then in excess of daily maintenance requirements would there be conversion to fat. But as noted above, this simply isn’t going to happen under any even reasonably normal circumstances. No human could eat enough protein on a daily basis for it to occur.

    What will happen, as discussed in Nutrient Intake, Nutrient Storage and Nutrient Oxidation. is that amino acid oxidation (burning for energy) will go up somewhat although, as discussed in that article, it’s a slow process and isn’t complete.

    So, as noted above, while the pathway exists for protein to be stored as fat, and folks will continue to claim that ‘excess protein just turns to fat’, it’s really just not going to happen under any sort of real-world situation. Certainly we can dream up odd theoretical situations where it might but those won’t apply to 99.9% of real-world situations.

    I'm not sure there exists a direct metabolic pathway in humans to go directly from protein to fat. I believe it would require gluconeogenesis from protein first, and then de novo lipogensis of glucose.

    That's my understanding as well. Which is what Lyle postulated in the article I quoted:
    ...I imagine that if protein were going to be converted to fat, it would first have to be converted to glucose and only if the amount produced were then in excess of daily maintenance requirements would there be conversion to fat. But as noted above, this simply isn’t going to happen under any even reasonably normal circumstances. No human could eat enough protein on a daily basis for it to occur...
  • MyUserNameizMyUserNameiz Posts: 6Member Member Posts: 6Member Member
    I.am.on doctors.plan, suggested ratio is.40% protein,.40% carbs 20% fat
  • Carlos_421Carlos_421 Posts: 4,881Member, Premium Member Posts: 4,881Member, Premium Member
    I know the negative effects of too much on the liver so I am curious what is too much?

    Actually, that's not so. If you don't already have liver problems, a high protein diet won't hurt it.
  • antennachickantennachick Posts: 464Member Member Posts: 464Member Member
    Carlos_421 wrote: »
    I know the negative effects of too much on the liver so I am curious what is too much?

    Actually, that's not so. If you don't already have liver problems, a high protein diet won't hurt it.
    So it cant cause liver problems? I have had some many people freak out when I tell them how protien is my goal and say I am going to have liver problems ha
  • Carlos_421Carlos_421 Posts: 4,881Member, Premium Member Posts: 4,881Member, Premium Member
    Carlos_421 wrote: »
    I know the negative effects of too much on the liver so I am curious what is too much?

    Actually, that's not so. If you don't already have liver problems, a high protein diet won't hurt it.
    So it cant cause liver problems? I have had some many people freak out when I tell them how protien is my goal and say I am going to have liver problems ha

    Nope. They are misinformed.
    http://www.biolayne.com/uncategorized/myths-surrounding-high-protein-diet-safety/
  • rankinsectrankinsect Posts: 2,238Member, Premium Member Posts: 2,238Member, Premium Member
    AnvilHead wrote: »
    senecarr wrote: »
    AnvilHead wrote: »
    auddii wrote: »
    GsKiki wrote: »
    I think high protein diet works well for some people, not so well for others. It's about finding what works the best for you. I prefer a nice balance in carbs, fat and protein. I found that's just what works for me best.
    Agreed. If you do your research OP, too much protein turns to fat IF you don't burn it off enough.

    To much of any calories can turn into fat.
    Not if you're eating correctly...?

    What do you mean by correctly?
    One can be eating a lot of protein but not consuming too much calories

    In which case the protein (or any other macronutrient) wouldn't be stored as fat. There is no net fat storage when in a caloric deficit regardless of the macronutrient profile.

    Also, while the pathway for protein being stored as fat exists, it's extremely inefficient and basically doesn't happen: http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/nutrition/excess-protein-and-fat-storage-qa.html/
    ...Which means that the odds of protein being converted to fat in any quantitatively meaningful fashion is simply not going to happen. Certain amino acids are processed to a great degree in the liver (as I discuss in The Protein Book) and this can produce glucose, ketones and a few other things. But triglycerides (the storage form of ‘fat’) isn’t one of them.

    I imagine that if protein were going to be converted to fat, it would first have to be converted to glucose and only if the amount produced were then in excess of daily maintenance requirements would there be conversion to fat. But as noted above, this simply isn’t going to happen under any even reasonably normal circumstances. No human could eat enough protein on a daily basis for it to occur.

    What will happen, as discussed in Nutrient Intake, Nutrient Storage and Nutrient Oxidation. is that amino acid oxidation (burning for energy) will go up somewhat although, as discussed in that article, it’s a slow process and isn’t complete.

    So, as noted above, while the pathway exists for protein to be stored as fat, and folks will continue to claim that ‘excess protein just turns to fat’, it’s really just not going to happen under any sort of real-world situation. Certainly we can dream up odd theoretical situations where it might but those won’t apply to 99.9% of real-world situations.

    I'm not sure there exists a direct metabolic pathway in humans to go directly from protein to fat. I believe it would require gluconeogenesis from protein first, and then de novo lipogensis of glucose.

    That's my understanding as well. Which is what Lyle postulated in the article I quoted:
    ...I imagine that if protein were going to be converted to fat, it would first have to be converted to glucose and only if the amount produced were then in excess of daily maintenance requirements would there be conversion to fat. But as noted above, this simply isn’t going to happen under any even reasonably normal circumstances. No human could eat enough protein on a daily basis for it to occur...

    I would disagree. The starting point for glucose to be transformed into fat is acetyl-CoA (forming fat when it's used for lipogenesis instead of entering the Krebs cycle to produce the proton gradient for ATP synthesis).

    Many, but not all, amino acids are also metabolized through acetyl-CoA, so I would think that would be the point at which protein byproduct would enter lipogenesis.
  • musclesandmusic866musclesandmusic866 Posts: 1,396Member Member Posts: 1,396Member Member
    Carlos_421 wrote: »
    I know the negative effects of too much on the liver so I am curious what is too much?

    Actually, that's not so. If you don't already have liver problems, a high protein diet won't hurt it.
    So it cant cause liver problems? I have had some many people freak out when I tell them how protien is my goal and say I am going to have liver problems ha

    I was taking 60 g in protein powder a day. Dr. told me to stop because it was throwing off my kidney blood work. Since then my blood work has been fine. Everything in moderation my dear… Everything!!
  • mrbytemrbyte Posts: 271Member Member Posts: 271Member Member
    Try not to rely on powders.
  • Carlos_421Carlos_421 Posts: 4,881Member, Premium Member Posts: 4,881Member, Premium Member
    Carlos_421 wrote: »
    I know the negative effects of too much on the liver so I am curious what is too much?

    Actually, that's not so. If you don't already have liver problems, a high protein diet won't hurt it.
    So it cant cause liver problems? I have had some many people freak out when I tell them how protien is my goal and say I am going to have liver problems ha

    I was taking 60 g in protein powder a day. Dr. told me to stop because it was throwing off my kidney blood work. Since then my blood work has been fine. Everything in moderation my dear… Everything!!

    Throwing off your blood work =\= throwing off your kidneys.
    High protein can cause increased creatinine levels which shows up as a red flag on blood work but if it's due to protein levels and not kidney failure it's not a problem.
  • antennachickantennachick Posts: 464Member Member Posts: 464Member Member
    Carlos_421 wrote: »
    I know the negative effects of too much on the liver so I am curious what is too much?

    Actually, that's not so. If you don't already have liver problems, a high protein diet won't hurt it.
    So it cant cause liver problems? I have had some many people freak out when I tell them how protien is my goal and say I am going to have liver problems ha

    I was taking 60 g in protein powder a day. Dr. told me to stop because it was throwing off my kidney blood work. Since then my blood work has been fine. Everything in moderation my dear… Everything!!
    Thats alot in powder form...what was your total protien grams?
  • gymphogympho Posts: 7Member Member Posts: 7Member Member
    I try to eat/drink 1gram of protein per pound I weigh. But being around 250Lbs, that's pretty hard. Therefore I normally drink 1 or 2 protein shakes a day. And I have for about the past 15 years.
  • Carlos_421Carlos_421 Posts: 4,881Member, Premium Member Posts: 4,881Member, Premium Member
    gympho wrote: »
    I try to eat/drink 1gram of protein per pound I weigh. But being around 250Lbs, that's pretty hard. Therefore I normally drink 1 or 2 protein shakes a day. And I have for about the past 15 years.

    Ya know...the whole grams per pound thing is supposed to be for pounds of lean body mass...
    You could be getting by with a lot less.
  • lemurcat12lemurcat12 Posts: 30,886Member Member Posts: 30,886Member Member
    Carlos_421 wrote: »
    gympho wrote: »
    I try to eat/drink 1gram of protein per pound I weigh. But being around 250Lbs, that's pretty hard. Therefore I normally drink 1 or 2 protein shakes a day. And I have for about the past 15 years.

    Ya know...the whole grams per pound thing is supposed to be for pounds of lean body mass...
    You could be getting by with a lot less.

    Yep. Or if you don't know LBM, make it simple and do .85g/lb of goal weight.
    edited February 2016
  • Vortex88Vortex88 Posts: 60Member Member Posts: 60Member Member
    1 gram of protein per lb of bodyweight is a tried and tested gold standard. Many studies now seem to suggest lower is okay but I haven't seen evidence of this in the real world. If you weigh 150lbs, I personally think 150g protein is a minimum for you for optimal body composition. I shoot for 1.25g per lb or higher.
  • Carlos_421Carlos_421 Posts: 4,881Member, Premium Member Posts: 4,881Member, Premium Member
    Vortex88 wrote: »
    1 gram of protein per lb of bodyweight is a tried and tested gold standard. Many studies now seem to suggest lower is okay but I haven't seen evidence of this in the real world. If you weigh 150lbs, I personally think 150g protein is a minimum for you for optimal body composition. I shoot for 1.25g per lb or higher.

    Lean body mass. Grams per pound of lean body mass.
  • AnvilHeadAnvilHead Posts: 18,543Member Member Posts: 18,543Member Member
    Carlos_421 wrote: »
    I know the negative effects of too much on the liver so I am curious what is too much?

    Actually, that's not so. If you don't already have liver problems, a high protein diet won't hurt it.
    So it cant cause liver problems? I have had some many people freak out when I tell them how protien is my goal and say I am going to have liver problems ha

    I was taking 60 g in protein powder a day. Dr. told me to stop because it was throwing off my kidney blood work. Since then my blood work has been fine. Everything in moderation my dear… Everything!!
    Thats alot in powder form...what was your total protien grams?

    60g of powdered protein isn't that much. One scoop is 34g by weight (at least for the one I use), and I usually put 1.5 scoops (51g) into 8 oz. of nonfat milk.
  • antennachickantennachick Posts: 464Member Member Posts: 464Member Member
    AnvilHead wrote: »
    Carlos_421 wrote: »
    I know the negative effects of too much on the liver so I am curious what is too much?

    Actually, that's not so. If you don't already have liver problems, a high protein diet won't hurt it.
    So it cant cause liver problems? I have had some many people freak out when I tell them how protien is my goal and say I am going to have liver problems ha

    I was taking 60 g in protein powder a day. Dr. told me to stop because it was throwing off my kidney blood work. Since then my blood work has been fine. Everything in moderation my dear… Everything!!
    Thats alot in powder form...what was your total protien grams?

    60g of powdered protein isn't that much. One scoop is 34g by weight (at least for the one I use), and I usually put 1.5 scoops (51g) into 8 oz. of nonfat milk.
    Just seams alot to me with it being from just a powder..instead of from real food ;)
  • senecarrsenecarr Posts: 5,377Member Member Posts: 5,377Member Member
    AnvilHead wrote: »
    Carlos_421 wrote: »
    I know the negative effects of too much on the liver so I am curious what is too much?

    Actually, that's not so. If you don't already have liver problems, a high protein diet won't hurt it.
    So it cant cause liver problems? I have had some many people freak out when I tell them how protien is my goal and say I am going to have liver problems ha

    I was taking 60 g in protein powder a day. Dr. told me to stop because it was throwing off my kidney blood work. Since then my blood work has been fine. Everything in moderation my dear… Everything!!
    Thats alot in powder form...what was your total protien grams?

    60g of powdered protein isn't that much. One scoop is 34g by weight (at least for the one I use), and I usually put 1.5 scoops (51g) into 8 oz. of nonfat milk.

    I took it to mean he was getting 60g of protein from protein powder.
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