Feminists and nonconformists - where do your goals come from?
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Diabetes is rampant in my family and, while I know it will probably get me eventually, I'd like to miss that boat for as long as possible. I don't want to be trapped in an unhealthy body for the rest of my life.0
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My impetus to lose weight was mostly based on health and comfort, although I'd be lying if I said appearance had nothing to do with it. As I gained weight, I lost confidence, which I think negatively impacted not only my social life but my career. It held me back from speaking my mind and inserting myself into important conversations. I'm a lawyer, and nobody trusts a lawyer without confidence.
At one time, I would have blamed "society" for making me feel that I didn't belong, for making me feel like everyone was judging me for being overweight. What I realize now is that I made myself feel that way, and that I had the power to change it. Empowerment- that is real feminism.0 -
I'm so glad that the HAES and FA wasn't around when I was younger. I would have fallen for that hard. Those people aren't feminists. They are crabs dragging everyone they can into their bucket of self pity.
These days I'm all about being the best version of me. I compete only with myself.
Looking good is a side benefit of feeling good. And in order for me to feel good, I have to exercise and keep myself at a reasonable weight. When I slack off, I feel depressed and unmotivated to do anything. When I take care of my physical self, my emotional self is much more balanced and stable.0 -
A lot of my feelings on the topic have already been covered. I'm also glad to see men contributing to the discussion because, as mentioned, you don't have to be female to be feminist. Additionally, men benefit from feminism as well.
A big part of my goals do have to do with appearance. But it's what I like to look like, not what anyone else has said I should look like (My husband has commented that he loves how my back looks, which is really nice, but I didn't make these goals just to please him.) I also love feeling strong from my workouts, and knowing I can do whatever I set my mind to.
To me, feminism means we are all free and responsible to set our own goals, without having to bow to gender stereotypes or expectations. You don't have to set goals contrary to the mainstream ideas; just decide what you like and what you want (and yes, that may be influenced by media, etc. But you can still chose whether you like that or not)0 -
If you're happy, does it really matter? That's how I feel about it.
Yes, we are going to be somewhat influenced by society, but the more you can recognise this, the more true yourself you will find. Will there still be some influence at the back of our minds, that we don't even realise? Probably. I'm happy though. If my views change I'm confident enough to admit it and grow as a person. My body ideals, whether stereotypical "beauty standards" or not, influenced or not, really do feel like my own. I personally don't think mine are pretty conventional - more size please! But I'm going for it because it makes me happy.
Away from the "feminist" label, because who knows what it really means now. I believe in equal rights, I'm against body shaming (fat or skinny or anything in between) and I wish people would stop pretending it's about health when they put bigger people down (can this HAES debate thing just end now?) Let's be honest here, it's not about health. Nobody gives a damn about the health of a large number of young, slim attractive young people going out binge drinking, smoking, with a poor diet, but with a fat woman and suddenly everyone think they're an expert "I'm just concerned about your health" Unless they're close to you (real concern doesn't involve nasty comments) that's BS.
You can be overweight (or underweight for that matter) and healthy. However, the more extreme you go either end the more chances you have of having health problems. That's obvious. But there's more to it than just scale weight, way more.
Love your body, love what it does for you, appreciate it when it does you well. Do what makes you feel good, physically and mentally. Be happy, be confident! Be you.0 -
cristalball wrote: »How do you know if you are bowing to society's views and pressures to try to obtain the "ideal" body or if your goals are more internally and personally motivated? Or does it even matter? I ask because I'm not sure for my own goals and was curious about others.
I am of the opinion that it doesn't matter. I don't spend a lot of time thinking about my choices (on any subject) with respect to whether or not they make me a feminist. I also don't think about whether or not I should do things based on my gender. To me, that is the true aim of feminism. It shouldn't be about women attempting equality with men or superiority to men. It should be about doing what we want without thinking about it in terms of gender...because it doesn't matter.
ETA: This goes both ways for me. Men should be able to do things that are traditionally seen as feminine without receiving flak for it.
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Liking how you look in the mirror is not inherently anti feminist to me. Neither is necessarily wanting to look good for others. I think it becomes anti feminist if that is the only reason or you focus on that to the detriment of the rest of your physical and emotional health.
Some of my other goals include fitting into my clothes better, more energy to do things, and getting involved in a sport.0 -
Cool. I don't have the time to quote and copy all of the wonderful things I am reading here right now but know that I am loving this thread.
I am a strong independent woman. Single mother to three. I am most decidedly a feminist and feminine. I love that I can choose how I will portray myself and that I can set a role model for my two daughters and my son. I wish to be strong inside and out. I will not be defined by society. Period.
Keep on keepin' on my feminist friends.0 -
cristalball wrote: »How do you know if you are bowing to society's views and pressures to try to obtain the "ideal" body or if your goals are more internally and personally motivated? Or does it even matter? I ask because I'm not sure for my own goals and was curious about others.
You are not implying that feminists should make an effort to not conform by being obese and out of shape on purpose?0 -
It's hard to detangle my goals because of course I'd /like/ to be considered more attractive to others. Though that is also a scary thought, in some ways I feel like I've been "protected" from a lot of the negative attention many of my conventionally attractive friends have to deal with, like catcalling.
I actually think in some ways not wanting to care about what I looked like kept me from acknowledging my weight as a health concern until I realized I was actually obese and it was affecting my health and quality of life. I had seen "fat" as only an aesthetic issue that I /shouldn't/ care about, that I was ashamed to care about, instead of a health issue.
But my goals have nothing to do with just being skinny. My goals are to be healthier, be more active, and be less unhappy with my life and my choices. I don't really believe I ever will be thin, I don't buy magazines, and I have no interest in fad diets or "cleanses". I want to treat my body with respect, be comfortable in my embodied self rather than just thinking of myself as a brain in an unpleasant physical case. My goals are improved physical and mental well being. And if I daydream sometimes about turning heads and being cute, well, that's okay too.0 -
i had heard of the health at every size school of thought once or twice before but never knew it had its own acronym. (silly of me in todays fwiw, btw, brb, lol, world) So i looked it up and am saddened that their welcome paragraph begins with..."Face it. We have lost the war on obesity."0
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Feminism means one thing to me. Choice. I choose to be slender and healthy.0
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I have a serious health condition and my health/fitness goals are based on avoiding surgery.0
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For me, feminism is about what you believe, not how you look. I dress very "girly." Blame the ballet and figure skating when I was younger.
That doesn't mean I believe in traditional gender roles or that I dress that way to meet someone's/society's expectations. I do it for me--it's what I like! Other people should dress how they like. People need to be able to be themselves, not be fit into society's boxes so other people feel comfortable about their identity because they "know" who they are. It's not my job to make myself look or act in a certain way so others feel like their world is in its proper order. Personally, I despise the inequity and stereotypes of our society. I want to be who I am, and I want that for everyone else. (Serial killers and pedophiles, aside, of course!) 
I lost weight because I was unhealthy. My Dad had diabetes, high blood pressure and high cholesterol. Then he had a heart attack and was miserable and in a hospital for the last six months of his life. Now my mom's having a lot of the same struggles. A lot of those issues can be combated by a healthy weight, exercise and a healthy diet (for me--mostly lean protein, veggies, fruits, healthy fats, fiber, and limiting added sugar).
I've always loved weight-lifting. I'm 5'3 and 119 and have guys tell me when I'm on the leg press, "I wish I could do that." I add 590 to the sled right now. I love being strong and being able to lift stuff. I love improving my running times and durations. I love increasing my flexibility with yoga. Ariel yoga is NEXT!!!
Do I think I look good, sure! Do I care about how I look in comparison to others? Nope--who has time for all that crap? We're all different. Overall, I thought the Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Issue with its three covers and use of some not all "typical model size" models was awesome this year and a HUGE (pardon the pun) step forward. Beauty and sexy in different shapes and sizes!0 -
It's hard to detangle my goals because of course I'd /like/ to be considered more attractive to others. Though that is also a scary thought, in some ways I feel like I've been "protected" from a lot of the negative attention many of my conventionally attractive friends have to deal with, like catcalling.
I actually think in some ways not wanting to care about what I looked like kept me from acknowledging my weight as a health concern until I realized I was actually obese and it was affecting my health and quality of life. I had seen "fat" as only an aesthetic issue that I /shouldn't/ care about, that I was ashamed to care about, instead of a health issue.
But my goals have nothing to do with just being skinny. My goals are to be healthier, be more active, and be less unhappy with my life and my choices. I don't really believe I ever will be thin, I don't buy magazines, and I have no interest in fad diets or "cleanses". I want to treat my body with respect, be comfortable in my embodied self rather than just thinking of myself as a brain in an unpleasant physical case. My goals are improved physical and mental well being. And if I daydream sometimes about turning heads and being cute, well, that's okay too.
This. All of this.
And a lot of other amazing things that people have said.
When I first heard of HAES I thought it was a great idea to encourage people to be healthier no matter what size they were. Obviously that's not the message HAES is really about.
Health is at the core of my goals. I don't idolize anyone else's body because it isn't possible to achieve someone else's body. I accept by body for what it is and what it does for me. I can still work on changing it as I accept it. The most important parts are about getting to a place where I am healthy enough to lower the risk of various medical ailments, so I can take care of myself, and be fit enough to take on whatever adventure strikes my fancy. Doing this in a healthy sustainable way seems like the most logical and kind way to achieve these goals.
My goals are my own and I believe that my feminist/nonconformist background makes it easier to stick to my goals. I have no problem saying no to friends who invite me to do endless hours of cardio because I want to focus on weights and my goals.
I intend on never fitting into someone else's mold because I am myself and I'm the only one.
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I mostly just want to fit into a smaller dress size again. Also, I'm trying to shift my excess weight now, at 20 because I know it'll be easier to lose. I'm not sure if I'm overweight and if I am it's only slightly but I'm doing this for myself. My girlfriend loves my body and she wouldn't care if I stayed this size but I want to be healthier for me.0
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I have been asked about this before actually since I am a feminist. There was definitely a time where my goals were more driven by society's standards but I feel like my goals have matured with me. I am trying to lose weight because I just don't feel healthy at this weight and I feel sluggish and tired all of the time. Everyone will have their own reasons for wanting to lose (or gain) weight. Hope this helps!
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I'm a feminist
I want to look hot 0 -
If I want to care how others think of me, it's my choice. If I don't, same thing. Try to be aware of how you think you are influenced and make conscious choices. These labels, in particular the idea of non-conformism as a cultural choice require obligate referential to a mainstream. You think being edgy is edgy when everyone is trying to do it?
Just be.
My goals are highly fitness motivated - being able to do things for a long time and having seen what unfit destroys life and ability to enjoy the outdoors weighs heavily in my decisions. But I also have aesthetic goals and yes, they are influenced by social canon and that is perfectly ok because I decide where I put the cursor.
Often enough, there is also the trap that rejecting personal goals of fitness or looks is actually a capitulation to minimum effort. I can't be that, so I'm not going to try at all. Fine, if that is where your personal journey takes you - but it seems that often enough that type of capitulation leads to an unhappy place.
As to HAES? They are somewhat right - there is a lot of false sense of concern that is thrown at the overweight and it seems to me often to very counterproductive. "oh, their poor knees" "oh, their diabetes" are just disdainful mouth cluckings about appearance - and loaded assumptions about health, activity, social standings, etc... Unfortunately, they've taken it too far, going from self acceptance to self deception. My health, at any weight, is mostly my business.
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It's a good question, OP. Cultural currents influence all of us, even those going against the current. Comments about goals and cultural influence changing with age/maturity resonate for me, too. Appearance mattered more to me when I was younger, as did opinions of others. I really don't care much about either now, nor about clothes, but I enjoy my body/strength more for my own sake than I used to when younger. I surprised myself realizing I like a lower bf% than I had when young (and fit). Just because of how it feels when running.
Another thought is some of us seek attention while others want to escape attention. I've heard sexual abuse survivors say they hide behind their bodies and fear (or rebel against) being "attractive" per cultural ideals. In a more subtle vein, I realized that one aspect of my goal when younger was to be a size that would escape attention, mostly from overly opinionated family members.0 -
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CoffeeNCardio wrote: »As a very outspoken advocate against body-shaming, and a born and bred feminist, I can happily say that it's MY body and I'll make it look however I dam well please. If that happens to mimic societal beauty standards, so be it. I know what I want to look like. I know how I want to feel (energetic and happy). And uterus notwithstanding, I'm perfectly capable of making that decision in spite of the fashion industry.
I also really like clothes I find pretty. I like to feel pretty. I have no issue existing in both spheres and cannot comprehend why I shouldn't.
Being a feminist doesn't mean you have to stop caring what you look like. It means you don't let other people decide that for you. Whether that be some guy saying you're ugly because you don't meet his standard of sexual desirability (cause you are more than a sexual object) or some other woman saying you need to meet standards to be socially acceptable.
Came in here to write something, but it was pretty much going to be this. Very well said.0 -
Are my goals and desires and personal aesthetic influenced by the larger culture, which is pretty sexist and patriarchal in a lot of ways? Heck yeah. I'm not a magician who can eliminate the impact of decades of media and social imagery and pressure on my own mind.
Does that make me a bad feminist? No. Feminism is about recognizing those places where we're still falling short as a society in providing equal opportunity and treatment for everyone, where there's room for improvement, and where we are placing unreasonable demands and pressures on others and ourselves. It's not about becoming flawless living embodiments of the version of ourselves who already lives in a perfectly egalitarian world (if we could even accurately conceive of and execute what that might look like for each of us).
It's pretty silly to blame the targets of various kinds of oppression for behaviors motivated by that oppression, even if that seems like the easiest way to tackle it. "Hey, stop acting so oppressed!" to an individual is a much easier, but lazier and less useful thing to say then "Hey, stop oppressing people" to a larger system that's actually doing it.
Looked at objectively, it's pretty silly that men can wear their body hair unaltered and women are considered shocking outliers if not outright disgusting in many settings if they don't remove it. That makes no objective sense. But it doesn't follow that a woman who bows to that pressure and shaves or waxes- whether because she feels external pressure from the social setting she moves in to do so or because she's totally internalized the idea that it IS gross to have body hair- is a "bad feminist."
If she goes around telling *other* women that they're disgusting for having body hair, that's some bad feminism. And it's probably worthwhile to each of us to confront and interrogate the gender-based expectations placed on us, even if we ultimately choose to comply with them. But making choices or having thoughts or feelings that conform to patriarchal ideals is not an inherently antifeminist thing, and blaming the targets of social control for being socially influenced is kind of a jerk move.0 -
I want to live a healthy lifestyle and reduce my impact on the environment. My focus isn't on being "pretty or skinny" its on being healthy, eating healthy foods, and feeling strong and confident in my body.0
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I have simply decided how I want to look and have gone for it. Some of my goals might be things that others find appealing and some of my goals may not. Just because a few of the things I personally find pleasing are also things many others like doesn't mean I'm "conforming" to others standards.0
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id say losing 150 pounds was more for my health
im still chubby & not caring to lose anymore though so i guess anarchy and all that0 -
I'm more motivated by being able to DO things (keep up with my kids, be able to run a few miles, be able to go hiking without getting out of breath, be able to lift the things I need and want to, etc.) than the way I look, but I do want to look better also.
The other big issue is my health. Cardiovascular disease runs in my family. My dad just had a stroke at 49 and has lost a lot of use of his left foot and left hand. He just had a double bypass also, because his heart is a ticking time bomb of clogged and hardened arteries. My mom, at 49 also, is pre-diabetic, obese, has high blood pressure, and in need of a knee replacement due to damage from long-term obesity. My grandmother is obese, as are my uncles, aunts, and nearly everyone else, even my aunts and uncles who are in their early 40's, and they are all on cholesterol and BP medications, can't manage to walk very far without joint pain and/or difficulty breathing. My father's father had a quadruple bypass at 60-ish after a major heart attack. I don't want to be in that boat when I hit my 40's and 50's, etc. I plan on being active, strong, and full of life as long as I possibly can. I didn't grow up eating very healthy food, as my family was pretty poor and we couldn't really afford fresh vegetables and/or fruit, so a lot of the challenge for me is to retrain my palette to enjoy more vegetables and non-junk food.
I'm also a strong supporter of women's rights and equality for all and am most definitely a feminist.0 -
If you want to be a non-conformist, then you should ensure you're not overweight or obese. 2/3rds of America is overweight or obese. If you're overweight, or obese, then you're a conformist.
If you're a feminist, you have control of your body. Being obese or overweight means your body controls you. Being a feminist means you take ownership of your own body, and make it do what you want it to do.0 -
emmycantbemeeko wrote: »Are my goals and desires and personal aesthetic influenced by the larger culture, which is pretty sexist and patriarchal in a lot of ways? Heck yeah. I'm not a magician who can eliminate the impact of decades of media and social imagery and pressure on my own mind.
Does that make me a bad feminist? No. Feminism is about recognizing those places where we're still falling short as a society in providing equal opportunity and treatment for everyone, where there's room for improvement, and where we are placing unreasonable demands and pressures on others and ourselves. It's not about becoming flawless living embodiments of the version of ourselves who already lives in a perfectly egalitarian world (if we could even accurately conceive of and execute what that might look like for each of us).
It's pretty silly to blame the targets of various kinds of oppression for behaviors motivated by that oppression, even if that seems like the easiest way to tackle it. "Hey, stop acting so oppressed!" to an individual is a much easier, but lazier and less useful thing to say then "Hey, stop oppressing people" to a larger system that's actually doing it.
Looked at objectively, it's pretty silly that men can wear their body hair unaltered and women are considered shocking outliers if not outright disgusting in many settings if they don't remove it. That makes no objective sense. But it doesn't follow that a woman who bows to that pressure and shaves or waxes- whether because she feels external pressure from the social setting she moves in to do so or because she's totally internalized the idea that it IS gross to have body hair- is a "bad feminist."
If she goes around telling *other* women that they're disgusting for having body hair, that's some bad feminism. And it's probably worthwhile to each of us to confront and interrogate the gender-based expectations placed on us, even if we ultimately choose to comply with them. But making choices or having thoughts or feelings that conform to patriarchal ideals is not an inherently antifeminist thing, and blaming the targets of social control for being socially influenced is kind of a jerk move.
Fantastic answer.0
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