Feminists and nonconformists - where do your goals come from?
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The constant physical pain I was in was what made me keep going after my initial success when I had already accepted myself but found mfp by chance and decided to experiment.0
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amusedmonkey wrote: »I have no horse in this race as I have never felt oppressed or discriminated against for being obese, or for being a woman for that matter. There was no social pressure to wear makeup, for example, so I chose not to, while other women choose to do so on a daily basis because that's their preference, and there are plenty of women around in either camp with no real expectations from society regarding this matter. There was some pressure to lose weight with all the magazines and beauty standards in the media, but I guess I just filtered out the noise and didn't care enough to ride the fad diet rollercoaster other than an occasional "something to do" with my friends when I was a teen. My decision to lose weight came about after a health scare and being given the choice by the doctor to either lose weight or go on medications. It was presented to me as a choice without any hint of judgement. As a grownup I chose to stay at home and work from home with no negative feedback from people and in a field where wages are skill-based and you aren't even asked about your gender.
I had to disclose this background to explain why I may not be as enthusiastic as some about this topic and why it's weird to me. If feminism is about equal rights and freedom of choice for all genders, why are people who freely choose to conform to certain society standards because it makes them happy are viewed in a negative light by some of the members of a movement that values freedom of choice? Why are we pressured to deliberately be nonconformists just for the sake of it? It reminds me of teenage rebellion and strikes me as immature for this to even be an issue. So people (note, people, not just women) are generally influenced by the society and social standards to different degrees, so what? It's human nature and I see nothing wrong with that. I may not be influenced by wanting a big butt or an athletic thin and strong look (which is awesome, just not for me) simply because it never felt important, but I am influenced by some other social standard and don't see why I should be ashamed of that.
I don't feel like the purpose of the OP's post was to add to any of this pressure. I took it as an internal conflict of sorts, and a request for a variety of men and women, possibly having experienced the same conflict in the past, to share their thoughts.1 -
bendyourkneekatie wrote: »lemonlionheart wrote: »I will add though that I do believe in body positivity, which means that regardless of health risks I believe that nobody should be treated with disrespect or made to feel less worthy because of their size. I have several gorgeous, plus-sized lady friends who are happy, healthy, and absolute BABES, and it seems crazy to me that anyone would think these women were unattractive because of their weight. If a friend came to me wanting advice about making a healthy change I would happily give it, but I really feel people have the right to make (informed) choices about their bodies and health.
I've often wished that the h in haes stood for happy. Everyone deserves to be happy, to feel happy, with their bodies. Not every body (or weight) is healthy, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be happy.
IMO health is so multi faceted that I don't believe that failing, or not being optimal on one front means we should throw out the baby with the bath water. So if you're thin and exercise regularly but have high cholesterol, does that make you unhealthy? Asthma, PCOS, IBS, whatever, sorry, you're off the list, can't ever be healthy. Of course, the difference between these and body weight is that the latter is clearly visible to everyone that sees you1 -
My body works better without a layer of fat & with larger muscles. I can kick sexist and/or zombie a** better as a result. Even wearing lipstick if I wish.0
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No I rather felt that was worth mentioning because of the context of our argument. This is a post about feminism in relation to weight loss after all. Surely you anticipated that the content of anything within this post was going to relate back to that? And in any case, you accused me of being in a rage, which is a fairly common thing women hear when they disagree with men and the man in question resorts to insults and snide remarks about education levels rather than present an actual counter-argument.
So it's possible I'm guilty of assumption here, but you've done nothing in our conversation except 1. Accuse me of being emotionally compromised, 2. Insulted me as having a lack of or poor education/intelligence, and 3. Disregarded my argument completely by saying "I'll take that as a yes" when it was most obviously not one. The one and only thing you have not done is actually state your own reasons for why you disagree with the idea ITSELF.
You brought up ad hominem fallacy initially. Does it surprise you that you have enacted it throughout this discussion? I responded with a researched and data-plentiful explanation of my belief when you asked me the question about inflation, and your response was to disregard that and say I was in a rage. You could have countered with your own argument, but you chose instead to essentially say I was emotionally compromised to invalidate what I said. Being written off as over-emotional or emotionally-driven and thus inferior in our ability to argue a point is something women experience on the daily, so, yes, I assumed that was your point based on prior experience.
There you go again. You really are quite insistent that there must be some larger disagreement or purpose, or bias here. My one and only disagreement with you was right at the beginning and you're managed to turn this into something bigger in your mind. I'll also note this:Does the presence of more bodies available to fill jobs drive down wages in general? Of course it does in a capitalist economy.
That could have been full stop. Yet, you decided that couldn't possibly reflect reality and instead made a conclusory statement but provided no data. You also revealed your own confirmation bias. I've run into this on many occasions with people of a variety of beliefs, including both religions and political ideologies. It ends discussions and it's one of the reasons our political process is such a wreck. To you, our disagreement wasn't over a minor point about economics, it was instead about the larger struggle of male vs. female and oppression and weight loss? All of that said, you took the bait. I was scrolling through thinking about much of what was said in this thread until I came upon your statement, wrote what I wrote, thought better of it because I didn't want to get drawn into this, and yet you took the bait too quickly. It's like saying the word "fetus" in a Catholic church, "Obama" at a NRA convention . . . or e'hm "rage" in this thread. It was late, and I poked the bear.
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bendyourkneekatie wrote: »cristalball wrote: »How do you know if you are bowing to society's views and pressures to try to obtain the "ideal" body or if your goals are more internally and personally motivated? Or does it even matter? I ask because I'm not sure for my own goals and was curious about others.
You are not implying that feminists should make an effort to not conform by being obese and out of shape on purpose?
It sounds bizarre, but it's not an uncommon claim among haes/fa proponents.
Definitely not an implication I intended. I'm loving all of this discussion and reading thoughts from mentally (as well as physically) strong and thoughtful people.
I had no idea that the HAES movement was taking things in the direction they are - had to look up what HAES stood for.
I intentionally left out personal information about myself when I asked the question, and I'm glad I did because I think it's generated more diverse discussion. I'm not overweight and never have been. I've tried a few times to lose the 5-15 pounds of "vanity weight" that give me a muffin top in clothes I think I should fit into. This latest attempt has been the most successful because I didn't create a strict timeline, I'm not starving myself, and I don't freak out if I have days or weeks where I'm eating more calories and/or indulging on sweets. So now my clothes fit well and I've got some more muscle, which I like. But I still have some squishiness around my belly - really only when I bend over. I'd prefer it wasn't there, and I suspect it's because I have internalized the low body fat percentage look of DVD workout instructors and Athleta catalog models.
And perhaps that's okay for me.
I do, however, see how short of a step it would be to eating disorder territory in order to achieve a look that may or may not be healthy for my particular body. And I think it's fair to blame societal pressures for creating a culture of women, especially young women (which I'm not), who are deeply unhappy because their bodies don't look like the examples of beauty and fitness they are surrounded by every day.
Those are the thoughts that led to this post. I'm glad to hear from fellow feminists on here!
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emmycantbemeeko wrote: »Are my goals and desires and personal aesthetic influenced by the larger culture, which is pretty sexist and patriarchal in a lot of ways? Heck yeah. I'm not a magician who can eliminate the impact of decades of media and social imagery and pressure on my own mind.
Does that make me a bad feminist? No. Feminism is about recognizing those places where we're still falling short as a society in providing equal opportunity and treatment for everyone, where there's room for improvement, and where we are placing unreasonable demands and pressures on others and ourselves. It's not about becoming flawless living embodiments of the version of ourselves who already lives in a perfectly egalitarian world (if we could even accurately conceive of and execute what that might look like for each of us).
It's pretty silly to blame the targets of various kinds of oppression for behaviors motivated by that oppression, even if that seems like the easiest way to tackle it. "Hey, stop acting so oppressed!" to an individual is a much easier, but lazier and less useful thing to say then "Hey, stop oppressing people" to a larger system that's actually doing it.
Looked at objectively, it's pretty silly that men can wear their body hair unaltered and women are considered shocking outliers if not outright disgusting in many settings if they don't remove it. That makes no objective sense. But it doesn't follow that a woman who bows to that pressure and shaves or waxes- whether because she feels external pressure from the social setting she moves in to do so or because she's totally internalized the idea that it IS gross to have body hair- is a "bad feminist."
If she goes around telling *other* women that they're disgusting for having body hair, that's some bad feminism. And it's probably worthwhile to each of us to confront and interrogate the gender-based expectations placed on us, even if we ultimately choose to comply with them. But making choices or having thoughts or feelings that conform to patriarchal ideals is not an inherently antifeminist thing, and blaming the targets of social control for being socially influenced is kind of a jerk move.
Such a great response!
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amusedmonkey wrote: »I have no horse in this race as I have never felt oppressed or discriminated against for being obese, or for being a woman for that matter. There was no social pressure to wear makeup, for example, so I chose not to, while other women choose to do so on a daily basis because that's their preference, and there are plenty of women around in either camp with no real expectations from society regarding this matter. There was some pressure to lose weight with all the magazines and beauty standards in the media, but I guess I just filtered out the noise and didn't care enough to ride the fad diet rollercoaster other than an occasional "something to do" with my friends when I was a teen. My decision to lose weight came about after a health scare and being given the choice by the doctor to either lose weight or go on medications. It was presented to me as a choice without any hint of judgement. As a grownup I chose to stay at home and work from home with no negative feedback from people and in a field where wages are skill-based and you aren't even asked about your gender.
I had to disclose this background to explain why I may not be as enthusiastic as some about this topic and why it's weird to me. If feminism is about equal rights and freedom of choice for all genders, why are people who freely choose to conform to certain society standards because it makes them happy are viewed in a negative light by some of the members of a movement that values freedom of choice? Why are we pressured to deliberately be nonconformists just for the sake of it? It reminds me of teenage rebellion and strikes me as immature for this to even be an issue. So people (note, people, not just women) are generally influenced by the society and social standards to different degrees, so what? It's human nature and I see nothing wrong with that. I may not be influenced by wanting a big butt or an athletic thin and strong look (which is awesome, just not for me) simply because it never felt important, but I am influenced by some other social standard and don't see why I should be ashamed of that.
Yes! This is truth!
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Asher_Ethan wrote: »I consider myself a feminist. I can understand why people would think I'm bowing down to society's views of the perfect body. Unfortunately, there is a huge difference of how people treat me when I weigh more to when I weigh less including my mother.
Growing up, I was always a little bigger than average but still in a healthy BMI range. Because I wasn't a size 0, like my sister, my mother would always tell me outfits looked bad on me and would look better if I lost weight. She made me feel like I was never good enough for anything because I was a size 6.
Even now we're great friends, but 2 years and 33 pounds ago she would never call me and wouldn't come over to talk to me and when I did finally get her on the phone she was always doing something else and acting like talking to me was a huge inconvenience. Maybe it's all in my head, or a weird coincidence but it's weird how much more she calls me and comes over when I'm smaller.
TL;DR I stay thin so my mother will be my friend not because of society.
This is one of the saddest things I've read. I'm so sorry your mother is a jerk.
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SarcasmIsMyLoveLanguage wrote: »I clicked on this thread fully expecting it to be a dumpster fire. Pleasantly surprised. Great discussion.
Ha ha!
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bendyourkneekatie wrote: »lemonlionheart wrote: »I will add though that I do believe in body positivity, which means that regardless of health risks I believe that nobody should be treated with disrespect or made to feel less worthy because of their size. I have several gorgeous, plus-sized lady friends who are happy, healthy, and absolute BABES, and it seems crazy to me that anyone would think these women were unattractive because of their weight. If a friend came to me wanting advice about making a healthy change I would happily give it, but I really feel people have the right to make (informed) choices about their bodies and health.
I've often wished that the h in haes stood for happy. Everyone deserves to be happy, to feel happy, with their bodies. Not every body (or weight) is healthy, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be happy.
IMO health is so multi faceted that I don't believe that failing, or not being optimal on one front means we should throw out the baby with the bath water. So if you're thin and exercise regularly but have high cholesterol, does that make you unhealthy? Asthma, PCOS, IBS, whatever, sorry, you're off the list, can't ever be healthy. Of course, the difference between these and body weight is that the latter is clearly visible to everyone that sees you
The difference is that being obese is a choice. Illness is not.0 -
My goals come from the desire to be comfortable in my own skin, to regain self respect and confidence, and to feel beautiful as I define beauty. That said, I eat to fuel my exercise. I exercise to be fit and strong, not just skinny. And me personally, I feel beautiful wearing whatever amount and shade of makeup I want, so bash away. I wear my African American hair natural some days and a wig on others just because I feel like it, not because of insecurity or because society says so. The most important thing I've learned going from 208lbs to 138lbs is that I define me.0
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My body, my goals. I like to be strong.0
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When I was in high school and college, I wanted to skinny. I thought my body was the issue I couldn't be a professional ballerina (which at the time was pretty much true) and why I couldn't get guys to like me more than a friend.
I have always been a bit non-conformist and a feminist. I always wore and did what I wanted, despite what was trendy. The older I get the more feminist I become. I also realize I need to do what I like, not what I think others will want.
Now I want to reduce body fat/weight for health reasons plus I don't like to jiggle. Is that me or society? I don't know, I just know I'm not happy at my current state. I want to have a healthy relationship with food and not stuff my face when I get stressed.
I want to lift weights, a love affair that started in high school but hasn't been consistent until recently. I want to be strong. I want to run because I love the freedom and peace of mind it gives me. I love doing races to see if I can do better than I did before. I am all about improving myself, mentally and physically. I am all for making myself happy. If I am happy then I can help others be happy.1 -
I would say I am a feminist, and I really enjoyed researching the beauty myth in university. However, most of my early life was spent trying to live up to the myth instead of trying to understand it. I was slim & felt relatively attractive my whole life, but I never ever felt like I was enough. I always tore myself apart in my mind. Now my wellness goals, and the success I've had so far at achieving them, have come from a very internal shift in the way I look at the world and myself.
Strangely, it took getting older (40's) and gaining 100 extra lbs of weight to truly listen to my body and finally find it beautiful, exactly as it is, for the first time in my life. Getting healthy and undoing the effect of the beauty myth actually started in a sort of meditative way for me. In order to pull myself out of a chronic depression and unhealthy choices I decided to start being inspired by really paying attention to small details: the incredible beauty in a piece of fruit or a vegetable for instance. I mean really stopping to admire the minutiae of things: the deep glorious colour of a beet, the rippled texture of a kale leaf, the fascinating pattern of dodecahedrons in a pomegranate. Foods were a great place to start because then I internalized all of that appreciation by eating 'em up.
It really helped that we also grew a lot of veggies & fruit at our community garden... a whole immersive process. Also truly being Nature. Not simply walking through it, but stopping, standing still and letting my whole self gasp at the astounding bliss of the natural world.
And then learning how to feel that blissful about things outside of myself seemed to translate to how I appreciated my body. So now I can enjoy my form for everything it is... the little tributaries of my stretch marks can be gorgeous little sparkling rivers if I let them. They are mine. They are part of the map of my story. I find beauty now in the idea of FEELING strong and fit instead of LOOKING "skinny" or pretty. Though I feel like I can have both - just not someone else's idea of perfect prettiness. Not any more, because above all I can now feel great to please myself and no other. And yet for the first time ever I also feel like I can finally believe it and appreciate it when someone says that they think I'm beautiful. I suppose, for me, inspiration for wellness has become a matter of learning a new way of seeing, appreciating, and internalizing a deeper sort of beauty.0 -
As somebody who is incredibly feminist, one of my goals IS to look better. I'm not going to lie, I want to wear cute clothes and feel comfortable in them. But like hell if that makes me any less of a feminist.
That being said, I know I'll never be society's ideal. Nor do I try. I have big thighs and hips with tiny breasts. I like running, I play rugby, and I lift weights. I keep a lot of goals fitness-oriented and I try to focus on how I feel more frequently than how I look. (although I focus on how I look more than I'm comfortable with). I want to be strong and fit, and quite frankly, I want to survive the zombie apocalypse!1 -
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Some would say obesity is not always a choice. I have never been obese, but I have watched people struggle with it and not everyone has the resources, knowledge, mental energy etc to simply beat obesity.bendyourkneekatie wrote: »lemonlionheart wrote: »I will add though that I do believe in body positivity, which means that regardless of health risks I believe that nobody should be treated with disrespect or made to feel less worthy because of their size. I have several gorgeous, plus-sized lady friends who are happy, healthy, and absolute BABES, and it seems crazy to me that anyone would think these women were unattractive because of their weight. If a friend came to me wanting advice about making a healthy change I would happily give it, but I really feel people have the right to make (informed) choices about their bodies and health.
I've often wished that the h in haes stood for happy. Everyone deserves to be happy, to feel happy, with their bodies. Not every body (or weight) is healthy, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be happy.
IMO health is so multi faceted that I don't believe that failing, or not being optimal on one front means we should throw out the baby with the bath water. So if you're thin and exercise regularly but have high cholesterol, does that make you unhealthy? Asthma, PCOS, IBS, whatever, sorry, you're off the list, can't ever be healthy. Of course, the difference between these and body weight is that the latter is clearly visible to everyone that sees you
The difference is that being obese is a choice. Illness is not.
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bendyourkneekatie wrote: »lemonlionheart wrote: »I will add though that I do believe in body positivity, which means that regardless of health risks I believe that nobody should be treated with disrespect or made to feel less worthy because of their size. I have several gorgeous, plus-sized lady friends who are happy, healthy, and absolute BABES, and it seems crazy to me that anyone would think these women were unattractive because of their weight. If a friend came to me wanting advice about making a healthy change I would happily give it, but I really feel people have the right to make (informed) choices about their bodies and health.
I've often wished that the h in haes stood for happy. Everyone deserves to be happy, to feel happy, with their bodies. Not every body (or weight) is healthy, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be happy.
IMO health is so multi faceted that I don't believe that failing, or not being optimal on one front means we should throw out the baby with the bath water. So if you're thin and exercise regularly but have high cholesterol, does that make you unhealthy? Asthma, PCOS, IBS, whatever, sorry, you're off the list, can't ever be healthy. Of course, the difference between these and body weight is that the latter is clearly visible to everyone that sees you
The difference is that being obese is a choice. Illness is not.
Whether or not a choice was made does not change the fact that is the current state of one's body. On the other hand, "society's" choice to cherry pick and choose what constitutes "health" might determine how said state is classified0 -
The difference is that being obese is a choice. Illness is not.
Wow. I cannot believe how angry these words make me.
My mom has a nonoperable tumor that causes her cortisol levels to be sky-high, creating Cushing's Syndrome. She was a DES baby and has systemic lupus erythrematosus, multiple sclerosis, heart failure, kidney failure, type 1 diabetes (since childhood), survived ovarian and uterine cancer (with a 10 year battle), diabetic neuropathy in legs, arms, feet, hands, and eyes, is mostly blind, survived four strokes, has severe neck pain because of injuries sustained in a couple of accidents, osteopetrosis of the spine, rheumatoid arthritis, and has a condition causing massive growth of nonoperable tumors which the doctor estimates weigh more than 150 lbs at this time.
She does not "choose" to be obese. It's a medical term for a medical condition whose circumstances were set up by the myriad of health problems that she did not choose either. And yes, right now she's pretty much immobilized; thank the strokes for that. She lived with the Cushing's more than 20 years before a doctor recognized the syndrome and tested for it, before that doctor after doctor told her she was just a fat lazy pig who chose to be fat and lazy, even though she was anything BUT lazy.
I have witnessed self-righteous people call her names in public when she used a mobility cart, or when she stopped with her cane to rest at the county fair because walking all day caused a lot of pain. One lady loudly lectured her child in front of my mom and I about what a terrible person my mom was, because she was fat. I was 12. I've heard all the rude comments and slights.
When you look at someone who is overweight you know absolutely NOTHING about what they struggle with. Nothing. The only thing you know is that they're overweight.
And I guarantee you that NOBODY sits down and says "I want to be obese". Its a consequence of other choices, but its also something influenced by a lot of medical, financial, and emotional factors.0 -
The difference is that being obese is a choice. Illness is not.
Wow. I cannot believe how angry these words make me.
My mom has a nonoperable tumor that causes her cortisol levels to be sky-high, creating Cushing's Syndrome. She was a DES baby and has systemic lupus erythrematosus, multiple sclerosis, heart failure, kidney failure, type 1 diabetes (since childhood), survived ovarian and uterine cancer (with a 10 year battle), diabetic neuropathy in legs, arms, feet, hands, and eyes, is mostly blind, survived four strokes, has severe neck pain because of injuries sustained in a couple of accidents, osteopetrosis of the spine, rheumatoid arthritis, and has a condition causing massive growth of nonoperable tumors which the doctor estimates weigh more than 150 lbs at this time.
She does not "choose" to be obese. It's a medical term for a medical condition whose circumstances were set up by the myriad of health problems that she did not choose either. And yes, right now she's pretty much immobilized; thank the strokes for that. She lived with the Cushing's more than 20 years before a doctor recognized the syndrome and tested for it, before that doctor after doctor told her she was just a fat lazy pig who chose to be fat and lazy, even though she was anything BUT lazy.
I have witnessed self-righteous people call her names in public when she used a mobility cart, or when she stopped with her cane to rest at the county fair because walking all day caused a lot of pain. One lady loudly lectured her child in front of my mom and I about what a terrible person my mom was, because she was fat. I was 12. I've heard all the rude comments and slights.
When you look at someone who is overweight you know absolutely NOTHING about what they struggle with. Nothing. The only thing you know is that they're overweight.
And I guarantee you that NOBODY sits down and says "I want to be obese". Its a consequence of other choices, but its also something influenced by a lot of medical, financial, and emotional factors.
So are you saying that we should assume that every overweight person has an inoperable tumor?0 -
@DavPul is that all you really took from that? Read the last two paragraphs again and let it sink in. The illustration from my mom is only ONE example.
How many examples should be considered? Similar to how BMI works, these things are discussed across populations, not on a case by case basis. If we assume everyone has medical, financial, or emotional factors that "prevent" them from losing weight, how even would these forums operate?0 -
@DavPul I re-iterate. When a person is overweight, the ONLY thing you know about them is that they're overweight. That's it. Unless they've given you a personal history, a little compassion is in order. And saying anyone "Chooses" to be fat is just moronic. They choose other things in their lives, being fat is generally a consequence of OTHER choices. But just about no one says "hey, I want to be obese! Lets make this happen!".0
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And the entire reason this is relevant is that its used to defend berating , belittling, and treating overweight people as lesser human beings.
We have a long and sordid history on this planet of groups of people deciding other groups of people are bad / immoral / lazy / stupid / worth less because of physical characteristics. It really needs to stop. And the division of "being obese is a choice" is one used to justify prejudicial action and discrimination far too often.0
This discussion has been closed.
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