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Does a high fat diet reduce cholesterol numbers?
MelaniaTrump
Posts: 2,694 Member
in Debate Club
If you stay within the same daily calories?
Please provide links.
I want exact info that shows daily caloric info and changes in cholesterol numbers.
Not just sites stating that if you replace the SAD junk food diet with this, well,, of coarse.
Info on diets like the mediterranean, or vegetarian diet vs high fat diet would be nice.
Which is better for cholesterol?
Please provide links.
I want exact info that shows daily caloric info and changes in cholesterol numbers.
Not just sites stating that if you replace the SAD junk food diet with this, well,, of coarse.
Info on diets like the mediterranean, or vegetarian diet vs high fat diet would be nice.
Which is better for cholesterol?
0
Replies
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How are you defining high fat?
Also, what kind of fat? Any limits on that? That's likely going to make a difference, as is what the fat is replacing.
"Vegetarian diet" has no particular macros, it can be high fat and low fat and moderate fat.
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lemurcat12 wrote: »How are you defining high fat?
Also, what kind of fat? Any limits on that? That's likely going to make a difference, as is what the fat is replacing.
"Vegetarian diet" has no particular macros, it can be high fat and low fat and moderate fat.
This ^^
The question seems too nonspecific to garner much debate, though that doesn't always stop debate on here.
Also, it would be important to know if diet was the only thing that changed before the cholesterol profile improved, as exercise may have a bigger impact on lipid profiles than diet.0 -
JanetYellen wrote: »If you stay within the same daily calories?
Please provide links.
I want exact info that shows daily caloric info and changes in cholesterol numbers.
Not just sites stating that if you replace the SAD junk food diet with this, well,, of coarse.
Info on diets like the mediterranean, or vegetarian diet vs high fat diet would be nice.
Which is better for cholesterol?
@JanetYellen a year into eating 5% carbs, 15% protein and 80% fat both my Total Cholesterol and HDL numbers are higher than pre LCHF.
journal-advocate.com/ci_20054451
HDL/Total Cholesterol ideal ratio is 0.24 or greater. Mine was 0.17 pre LCHF and 0.23 after 1 year LCHF.
Triglycerides/HDL ideal ratio is 2 or less. Mine was 3.02 pre LCHF and 0.72 after one year LCHF.
As you can after 1 year LCHF I moved from high risk of CVD to a very safe to very low CVD risk. It also lowered my risks of premature death across the board from July 2014 to the Nov 2015 lipid panel test.
This n=1 results is all I am interested in at a personal level.
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GaleHawkins wrote: »JanetYellen wrote: »If you stay within the same daily calories?
Please provide links.
I want exact info that shows daily caloric info and changes in cholesterol numbers.
Not just sites stating that if you replace the SAD junk food diet with this, well,, of coarse.
Info on diets like the mediterranean, or vegetarian diet vs high fat diet would be nice.
Which is better for cholesterol?
@JanetYellen a year into eating 5% carbs, 15% protein and 80% fat both of my Total Cholesterol and HDL numbers are higher than pre LCHF.
journal-advocate.com/ci_20054451
HDL/Total Cholesterol ideal ratio is 0.24 or greater. Mine was 0.17 pre LCHF and 0.23 after 1 year LCHF.
Triglycerides/HDL ideal ratio is 2 or less. Mine was 3.02 pre LCHF and 0.72
As you can after 1 year LCHF I moved from high risk of CVD to a very safe to low CVD risk. It also lowered my risks of premature death across the board from Oct 2014 to the Nov 2015 lipid panel test.
This n=1 results is all I am interested in at a personal level.
Was diet the only thing that changed? Or was there weight loss, increase in physical activity, or other lifestyle changes.
What type of diet did you have before you went LCHF?0 -
Need2Exerc1se wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »JanetYellen wrote: »If you stay within the same daily calories?
Please provide links.
I want exact info that shows daily caloric info and changes in cholesterol numbers.
Not just sites stating that if you replace the SAD junk food diet with this, well,, of coarse.
Info on diets like the mediterranean, or vegetarian diet vs high fat diet would be nice.
Which is better for cholesterol?
@JanetYellen a year into eating 5% carbs, 15% protein and 80% fat both of my Total Cholesterol and HDL numbers are higher than pre LCHF.
journal-advocate.com/ci_20054451
HDL/Total Cholesterol ideal ratio is 0.24 or greater. Mine was 0.17 pre LCHF and 0.23 after 1 year LCHF.
Triglycerides/HDL ideal ratio is 2 or less. Mine was 3.02 pre LCHF and 0.72
As you can after 1 year LCHF I moved from high risk of CVD to a very safe to low CVD risk. It also lowered my risks of premature death across the board from Oct 2014 to the Nov 2015 lipid panel test.
This n=1 results is all I am interested in at a personal level.
Was diet the only thing that changed? Or was there weight loss, increase in physical activity, or other lifestyle changes.
What type of diet did you have before you went LCHF?
@Need2Exerc1se the question is: Does a high fat diet reduce cholesterol numbers? The answer was NO in the first sentence since mine numbers went up dropping my risk of death like a rock.
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GaleHawkins wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »JanetYellen wrote: »If you stay within the same daily calories?
Please provide links.
I want exact info that shows daily caloric info and changes in cholesterol numbers.
Not just sites stating that if you replace the SAD junk food diet with this, well,, of coarse.
Info on diets like the mediterranean, or vegetarian diet vs high fat diet would be nice.
Which is better for cholesterol?
@JanetYellen a year into eating 5% carbs, 15% protein and 80% fat both of my Total Cholesterol and HDL numbers are higher than pre LCHF.
journal-advocate.com/ci_20054451
HDL/Total Cholesterol ideal ratio is 0.24 or greater. Mine was 0.17 pre LCHF and 0.23 after 1 year LCHF.
Triglycerides/HDL ideal ratio is 2 or less. Mine was 3.02 pre LCHF and 0.72
As you can after 1 year LCHF I moved from high risk of CVD to a very safe to low CVD risk. It also lowered my risks of premature death across the board from Oct 2014 to the Nov 2015 lipid panel test.
This n=1 results is all I am interested in at a personal level.
Was diet the only thing that changed? Or was there weight loss, increase in physical activity, or other lifestyle changes.
What type of diet did you have before you went LCHF?
@Need2Exerc1se the debate question was: Does a high fat diet reduce cholesterol numbers? The answer was NO in the first sentence since they went up.
Doh! Epic reading fail. I think it would still be interesting to know if diet was the only change. For instance if you increased exercise and switched to LCHF and blood cholesterol still went up that would interesting (to me).
But I suppose that wasn't the OP's question. My bad.0 -
OP stated with the same calories.
I agree that exercise is also often going to make a difference (as could losing weight if same calories plus exercise led to lost weight).0 -
Need2Exerc1se wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »JanetYellen wrote: »If you stay within the same daily calories?
Please provide links.
I want exact info that shows daily caloric info and changes in cholesterol numbers.
Not just sites stating that if you replace the SAD junk food diet with this, well,, of coarse.
Info on diets like the mediterranean, or vegetarian diet vs high fat diet would be nice.
Which is better for cholesterol?
@JanetYellen a year into eating 5% carbs, 15% protein and 80% fat both of my Total Cholesterol and HDL numbers are higher than pre LCHF.
journal-advocate.com/ci_20054451
HDL/Total Cholesterol ideal ratio is 0.24 or greater. Mine was 0.17 pre LCHF and 0.23 after 1 year LCHF.
Triglycerides/HDL ideal ratio is 2 or less. Mine was 3.02 pre LCHF and 0.72
As you can after 1 year LCHF I moved from high risk of CVD to a very safe to low CVD risk. It also lowered my risks of premature death across the board from Oct 2014 to the Nov 2015 lipid panel test.
This n=1 results is all I am interested in at a personal level.
Was diet the only thing that changed? Or was there weight loss, increase in physical activity, or other lifestyle changes.
What type of diet did you have before you went LCHF?
@Need2Exerc1se the debate question was: Does a high fat diet reduce cholesterol numbers? The answer was NO in the first sentence since they went up.
Doh! Epic reading fail. I think it would still be interesting to know if diet was the only change. For instance if you increased exercise and switched to LCHF and blood cholesterol still went up that would interesting (to me).
But I suppose that wasn't the OP's question. My bad.
@Need2Exerc1se you are good. I had an appointment.
My major change was I left sugar and and all forms of all types of grain cold turkey and keep carbs <50 grams daily. We all know slashing carbs is what pumps up HDL numbers and drops triglycerides like a rock for most people. You know my current way of eating and that I did not accidently go LCHF to loose weight but to lower pain and cancer risks that I thought were increasing due to starting Enbrel injections. Thanks to LCHF killing my pain I dodged the Enbrel bullet totally.
Earlier in the 2014 I had lost 20 pounds with the old standard CICO starvation diet. Another 30 pounds automatically came off starting a couple months into LCHF. I did keep walking the 1/4 mile daily after going LCHF and I have maintained at 200 pounds for one full year.
I had done the CICO starvation yo yo diet for 40 years and it had about killed me so at 63 I decided to stopping dieting for the rest of my life and just eat for better health and let the weight manage itself. Because my eating was disordered I did count at first but after I resolved my eating disorder with LCHF (cravings all left) I only count now basically when someone asks for my calories. On average they still are 2500+ daily. At 65 with better health markers than at 45 I fully expect my health to be better at ago 70 than today. As you read above in just 18 months of eating < 50 grams of carbs I have my lipid numbers showing low health risks on LCHF. I do not tell others to eat one way or another because that is impossible to know. I share the way I eat so others if interested can google the subject and decide if it or parts of it may slow their rate to a premature death due to diet.5 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »JanetYellen wrote: »If you stay within the same daily calories?
Please provide links.
I want exact info that shows daily caloric info and changes in cholesterol numbers.
Not just sites stating that if you replace the SAD junk food diet with this, well,, of coarse.
Info on diets like the mediterranean, or vegetarian diet vs high fat diet would be nice.
Which is better for cholesterol?
@JanetYellen a year into eating 5% carbs, 15% protein and 80% fat both my Total Cholesterol and HDL numbers are higher than pre LCHF.
journal-advocate.com/ci_20054451
HDL/Total Cholesterol ideal ratio is 0.24 or greater. Mine was 0.17 pre LCHF and 0.23 after 1 year LCHF.
Triglycerides/HDL ideal ratio is 2 or less. Mine was 3.02 pre LCHF and 0.72 after one year LCHF.
As you can after 1 year LCHF I moved from high risk of CVD to a very safe to very low CVD risk. It also lowered my risks of premature death across the board from July 2014 to the Nov 2015 lipid panel test.
This n=1 results is all I am interested in at a personal level.
Gale, just a quick question. What was your total cholestrol level for your final readings. I know you are using mostly ratios and therefore a higher HDL makes the numbers look better without any other changes. Not questioning if it worked for you or not. I am just curious as to how it fits in with the guidelines represented on the lab results (given that you said it was higher)
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20yearsyounger wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »JanetYellen wrote: »If you stay within the same daily calories?
Please provide links.
I want exact info that shows daily caloric info and changes in cholesterol numbers.
Not just sites stating that if you replace the SAD junk food diet with this, well,, of coarse.
Info on diets like the mediterranean, or vegetarian diet vs high fat diet would be nice.
Which is better for cholesterol?
@JanetYellen a year into eating 5% carbs, 15% protein and 80% fat both my Total Cholesterol and HDL numbers are higher than pre LCHF.
journal-advocate.com/ci_20054451
HDL/Total Cholesterol ideal ratio is 0.24 or greater. Mine was 0.17 pre LCHF and 0.23 after 1 year LCHF.
Triglycerides/HDL ideal ratio is 2 or less. Mine was 3.02 pre LCHF and 0.72 after one year LCHF.
As you can after 1 year LCHF I moved from high risk of CVD to a very safe to very low CVD risk. It also lowered my risks of premature death across the board from July 2014 to the Nov 2015 lipid panel test.
This n=1 results is all I am interested in at a personal level.
Gale, just a quick question. What was your total cholestrol level for your final readings. I know you are using mostly ratios and therefore a higher HDL makes the numbers look better without any other changes. Not questioning if it worked for you or not. I am just curious as to how it fits in with the guidelines represented on the lab results (given that you said it was higher)
@20yearsyounger the numbers are at the office but I think as of Nov 2015 lipid test Total Cholesterol was down to 310 from 404 July 2015. July 2014 pre LCHF I think the reading was 213. I use the two ratios above to judge my health since we now know no study has shown cholesterol only levels to predict cardio vascular health risks.0 -
JanetYellen wrote: »If you stay within the same daily calories?
Please provide links.
I want exact info that shows daily caloric info and changes in cholesterol numbers.
Not just sites stating that if you replace the SAD junk food diet with this, well,, of coarse.
Info on diets like the mediterranean, or vegetarian diet vs high fat diet would be nice.
Which is better for cholesterol?
To narrow this down, you want a eucaloric study where the intervention diet is the same as the baseline calories, or can it be hypocaloric where two diets are compared with the same calorie intake ?
Weight loss may have a long term effect on cholesterol by itself, and there may be a transient effect where it goes the other way too.
Are you purely interest in numbers of lab sheets - cholesterol levels - or are you looking for indicators of diseases / heart realth / risk predictions ?
What is eligible as "high fat " - >40% of calories, >50% ?
How is the composition of the non-fat intake allowed to change ie should protein (or carbs) be kept the same with the other reducing to accommodate the extra fat.0 -
Here's a recent one to kick around - DASH vs an increased fat version. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26718414
Results: Thirty-six participants completed all 3 dietary periods. Blood pressure was reduced similarly with the DASH and HF-DASH diets compared with the control diet. The HF-DASH diet significantly reduced triglycerides and large and medium very-low-density lipoprotein (VLDL) particle concentrations and increased LDL peak particle diameter compared with the DASH diet. The DASH diet, but not the HF-DASH diet, significantly reduced LDL cholesterol, HDL cholesterol, apolipoprotein A-I, intermediate-density lipoprotein and large LDL particles, and LDL peak diameter compared with the control diet.
Conclusions: The HF-DASH diet lowered blood pressure to the same extent as the DASH diet but also reduced plasma triglyceride and VLDL concentrations without significantly increasing LDL cholesterol. This trial was registered at clinicaltrials.gov as NCT01404897.
Experimental: Dietary Intervention: Control Diet Other: Dietary Intervention
3 weeks of a typical Western diet pattern. 48% carbohydrate, 15% protein, 37% fat.
3 weeks of a diet based on the Dietary Approaches to Stop Hypertension (DASH) diet plan. 57% carbohydrate, 18% protein, 25% fat.
3 weeks of a reduced carbohydrate, higher fat modification of the DASH diet plan. 42% carbohydrate, 18% protein, 40% fat.2 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »20yearsyounger wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »JanetYellen wrote: »If you stay within the same daily calories?
Please provide links.
I want exact info that shows daily caloric info and changes in cholesterol numbers.
Not just sites stating that if you replace the SAD junk food diet with this, well,, of coarse.
Info on diets like the mediterranean, or vegetarian diet vs high fat diet would be nice.
Which is better for cholesterol?
@JanetYellen a year into eating 5% carbs, 15% protein and 80% fat both my Total Cholesterol and HDL numbers are higher than pre LCHF.
journal-advocate.com/ci_20054451
HDL/Total Cholesterol ideal ratio is 0.24 or greater. Mine was 0.17 pre LCHF and 0.23 after 1 year LCHF.
Triglycerides/HDL ideal ratio is 2 or less. Mine was 3.02 pre LCHF and 0.72 after one year LCHF.
As you can after 1 year LCHF I moved from high risk of CVD to a very safe to very low CVD risk. It also lowered my risks of premature death across the board from July 2014 to the Nov 2015 lipid panel test.
This n=1 results is all I am interested in at a personal level.
Gale, just a quick question. What was your total cholestrol level for your final readings. I know you are using mostly ratios and therefore a higher HDL makes the numbers look better without any other changes. Not questioning if it worked for you or not. I am just curious as to how it fits in with the guidelines represented on the lab results (given that you said it was higher)
@20yearsyounger the numbers are at the office but I think as of Nov 2015 lipid test Total Cholesterol was down to 310 from 404 July 2015. July 2014 pre LCHF I think the reading was 213. I use the two ratios above to judge my health since we now know no study has shown cholesterol only levels to predict cardio vascular health risks.
Thanks for sharing and good job on your results. Personally, I would prefer the nice ratios at your pre LCHF level. I have nothing against high fat diets. The good fats will increase HDL and give better ratios. Same as exercise. From a personal experience, I ordered the tests myself and tracked my own body fat versus cholestrol progress and my lower body fat had a strong correlation to better cholestrol numbers.
I did a quick search and found this study
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3303886/#!po=31.0811
While it doesnt prove anything it was still an interesting read to see that with this population there are risks involved with high cholestrol numbers moreso with IHD than CVD. But the study doesnt have data on the underlying ratios which I agree with you is more important.1 -
JanetYellen wrote: »If you stay within the same daily calories?
Please provide links.
I want exact info that shows daily caloric info and changes in cholesterol numbers.
Not just sites stating that if you replace the SAD junk food diet with this, well,, of coarse.
Info on diets like the mediterranean, or vegetarian diet vs high fat diet would be nice.
Which is better for cholesterol?
NO, a high fat diet INCREASED my cholesterol. This happened when I started eating low carb, high fat paleo. Prior to going paleo, I had normal labs. This was the first time I had dodgy labs.
On low carb, high fat paleo, I was eating 1500-1700 cals, was around 145 lbs, I'm 5' 4.5". I was mostly sedentary.
Total Cholesterol - 287 (should be <200)
LDL - 203 (should be <100)
HDL - 65 (should be >39)
Triglycerides - 95 (should be <125)
Last June, I changed my diet to a plant-based diet, low fat (10%) and high carb (75%). I had become more active, was eating about 1700-2000 cals and at the time of my blood test, I was about 135 lbs.
Total Cholesterol - 168 (down 41%)
LDL - 108 (down 47%)
HDL - 46
Triglycerides - 71
So, considering the difference in weight between the two tests was only about 10 lbs, and the calorie intake wasn't vastly different, the improvement in cholesterol can be attributed to reducing fat. Exercise also probably helped. I was previously eating a lot of meat, milk, cheese, eggs and used olive oil when cooking. Now I avoid using oil when cooking and have cut waaay back on animal foods. I still eat chocolates and ice cream as I did before though.1 -
Traveler120 wrote: »JanetYellen wrote: »If you stay within the same daily calories?
Please provide links.
I want exact info that shows daily caloric info and changes in cholesterol numbers.
Not just sites stating that if you replace the SAD junk food diet with this, well,, of coarse.
Info on diets like the mediterranean, or vegetarian diet vs high fat diet would be nice.
Which is better for cholesterol?
NO, a high fat diet INCREASED my cholesterol. This happened when I started eating low carb, high fat paleo. Prior to going paleo, I had normal labs. This was the first time I had dodgy labs.
On low carb, high fat paleo, I was eating 1500-1700 cals, was around 145 lbs, I'm 5' 4.5". I was mostly sedentary.
Total Cholesterol - 287 (should be <200)
LDL - 203 (should be <100)
HDL - 65 (should be >39)
Triglycerides - 90 (should be <125)
Last June, I changed my diet to a plant-based diet, low fat (10%) and high carb (75%). I had become more active, was eating about 1700-2000 cals and at the time of my blood test, I was about 135 lbs.
Total Cholesterol - 168 (down 41%)
LDL - 108 (down 47%)
HDL - 46
Triglycerides - 71
So, considering the difference in weight between the two tests was only about 10 lbs, and the calorie intake wasn't vastly different, the improvement in cholesterol can be attributed to reducing fat. Exercise also probably helped. I was previously eating a lot of meat, milk, cheese, eggs and used olive oil when cooking. Now I avoid using oil when cooking and have cut waaay back on animal foods. I still eat chocolates and ice cream as I did before though.
maybe. Although it was only a drop of 10lbs, a drop in overall body fat could change your numbers as well even with higher fat. HDL above 60 is a risk reduction factor.
2 -
20yearsyounger wrote: »Traveler120 wrote: »JanetYellen wrote: »If you stay within the same daily calories?
Please provide links.
I want exact info that shows daily caloric info and changes in cholesterol numbers.
Not just sites stating that if you replace the SAD junk food diet with this, well,, of coarse.
Info on diets like the mediterranean, or vegetarian diet vs high fat diet would be nice.
Which is better for cholesterol?
NO, a high fat diet INCREASED my cholesterol. This happened when I started eating low carb, high fat paleo. Prior to going paleo, I had normal labs. This was the first time I had dodgy labs.
On low carb, high fat paleo, I was eating 1500-1700 cals, was around 145 lbs, I'm 5' 4.5". I was mostly sedentary.
Total Cholesterol - 287 (should be <200)
LDL - 203 (should be <100)
HDL - 65 (should be >39)
Triglycerides - 90 (should be <125)
Last June, I changed my diet to a plant-based diet, low fat (10%) and high carb (75%). I had become more active, was eating about 1700-2000 cals and at the time of my blood test, I was about 135 lbs.
Total Cholesterol - 168 (down 41%)
LDL - 108 (down 47%)
HDL - 46
Triglycerides - 71
So, considering the difference in weight between the two tests was only about 10 lbs, and the calorie intake wasn't vastly different, the improvement in cholesterol can be attributed to reducing fat. Exercise also probably helped. I was previously eating a lot of meat, milk, cheese, eggs and used olive oil when cooking. Now I avoid using oil when cooking and have cut waaay back on animal foods. I still eat chocolates and ice cream as I did before though.
maybe. Although it was only a drop of 10lbs, a drop in overall body fat could change your numbers as well even with higher fat. HDL above 60 is a risk reduction factor.
Then how come my cholesterol was normal BEFORE I went low carb, high fat paleo, even though my weight was not that different? The most significant change from before paleo, was the increase in dietary fat.
Also, HDL typically goes up if you eat high fat. That's why most hardcore high fat paleos get very high HDL and it makes them feel better about their correspondingly high TC and LDL because it "improves" their ratios. The way I see it, instead of raising HDL to mop up after the bad cholesterol, how about keeping the bad cholesterol down in the first place.0 -
Traveler120 wrote: »20yearsyounger wrote: »Traveler120 wrote: »JanetYellen wrote: »If you stay within the same daily calories?
Please provide links.
I want exact info that shows daily caloric info and changes in cholesterol numbers.
Not just sites stating that if you replace the SAD junk food diet with this, well,, of coarse.
Info on diets like the mediterranean, or vegetarian diet vs high fat diet would be nice.
Which is better for cholesterol?
NO, a high fat diet INCREASED my cholesterol. This happened when I started eating low carb, high fat paleo. Prior to going paleo, I had normal labs. This was the first time I had dodgy labs.
On low carb, high fat paleo, I was eating 1500-1700 cals, was around 145 lbs, I'm 5' 4.5". I was mostly sedentary.
Total Cholesterol - 287 (should be <200)
LDL - 203 (should be <100)
HDL - 65 (should be >39)
Triglycerides - 90 (should be <125)
Last June, I changed my diet to a plant-based diet, low fat (10%) and high carb (75%). I had become more active, was eating about 1700-2000 cals and at the time of my blood test, I was about 135 lbs.
Total Cholesterol - 168 (down 41%)
LDL - 108 (down 47%)
HDL - 46
Triglycerides - 71
So, considering the difference in weight between the two tests was only about 10 lbs, and the calorie intake wasn't vastly different, the improvement in cholesterol can be attributed to reducing fat. Exercise also probably helped. I was previously eating a lot of meat, milk, cheese, eggs and used olive oil when cooking. Now I avoid using oil when cooking and have cut waaay back on animal foods. I still eat chocolates and ice cream as I did before though.
maybe. Although it was only a drop of 10lbs, a drop in overall body fat could change your numbers as well even with higher fat. HDL above 60 is a risk reduction factor.
Then how come my cholesterol was normal BEFORE I went low carb, high fat paleo, even though my weight was not that different? The most significant change from before paleo, was the increase in dietary fat.
Also, HDL typically goes up if you eat high fat. That's why most hardcore high fat paleos get very high HDL and it makes them feel better about their correspondingly high TC and LDL because it "improves" their ratios. The way I see it, instead of raising HDL to mop up after the bad cholesterol, how about keeping the bad cholesterol down in the first place.
My only argument is that because you only saw a 10lb different, it doesnt mean that your body composition doesnt come into play. Who knows what really happened unless you were measuring the other factors.
I dont eat high fat but my HDL levels are high. The only reason I commented there was because you went from one extreme high-fat to another extreme low-fat. Who is to say you wouldnt have good or better results at 15%,20%,25% 30% fat?1 -
20yearsyounger wrote: »Traveler120 wrote: »20yearsyounger wrote: »Traveler120 wrote: »JanetYellen wrote: »If you stay within the same daily calories?
Please provide links.
I want exact info that shows daily caloric info and changes in cholesterol numbers.
Not just sites stating that if you replace the SAD junk food diet with this, well,, of coarse.
Info on diets like the mediterranean, or vegetarian diet vs high fat diet would be nice.
Which is better for cholesterol?
NO, a high fat diet INCREASED my cholesterol. This happened when I started eating low carb, high fat paleo. Prior to going paleo, I had normal labs. This was the first time I had dodgy labs.
On low carb, high fat paleo, I was eating 1500-1700 cals, was around 145 lbs, I'm 5' 4.5". I was mostly sedentary.
Total Cholesterol - 287 (should be <200)
LDL - 203 (should be <100)
HDL - 65 (should be >39)
Triglycerides - 90 (should be <125)
Last June, I changed my diet to a plant-based diet, low fat (10%) and high carb (75%). I had become more active, was eating about 1700-2000 cals and at the time of my blood test, I was about 135 lbs.
Total Cholesterol - 168 (down 41%)
LDL - 108 (down 47%)
HDL - 46
Triglycerides - 71
So, considering the difference in weight between the two tests was only about 10 lbs, and the calorie intake wasn't vastly different, the improvement in cholesterol can be attributed to reducing fat. Exercise also probably helped. I was previously eating a lot of meat, milk, cheese, eggs and used olive oil when cooking. Now I avoid using oil when cooking and have cut waaay back on animal foods. I still eat chocolates and ice cream as I did before though.
maybe. Although it was only a drop of 10lbs, a drop in overall body fat could change your numbers as well even with higher fat. HDL above 60 is a risk reduction factor.
Then how come my cholesterol was normal BEFORE I went low carb, high fat paleo, even though my weight was not that different? The most significant change from before paleo, was the increase in dietary fat.
Also, HDL typically goes up if you eat high fat. That's why most hardcore high fat paleos get very high HDL and it makes them feel better about their correspondingly high TC and LDL because it "improves" their ratios. The way I see it, instead of raising HDL to mop up after the bad cholesterol, how about keeping the bad cholesterol down in the first place.
My only argument is that because you only saw a 10lb different, it doesnt mean that your body composition doesnt come into play. Who knows what really happened unless you were measuring the other factors.
I dont eat high fat but my HDL levels are high. The only reason I commented there was because you went from one extreme high-fat to another extreme low-fat. Who is to say you wouldnt have good or better results at 15%,20%,25% 30% fat?
Because I've taken several tests in between those two and I can't argue with my own results, which show a downward trend with decreasing fat. Here's the thing, people are different. Some have a propensity for higher cholesterol than others do. Even at my low fat levels, you'll notice my LDL is 108 when it should be under 100. It's been over 6 months since my last test so I'll be testing again to see what's changed. So I'm one of those people who can't mess around with fatty foods and esp animal fats and get away with it, as I found out. Some folks eat ultra high fat and swear their labs are normal.
The only thing that should matter is how one's own body reacts to a particular diet. It's just like how some folks can't eat high carb and keep their blood glucose normal, whereas, I eat very high carb, mostly whole foods but I include sugar and sweets and yet, my last fasting blood glucose was 70 mg/dl(normal being 65-99). I have great insulin sensitivity, but can't handle too much fat. Works for me though because I prefer carbs and sweets anyway and I don't miss the types of fats that I've cut out. So it's win win.0 -
Also, I should add that if you go to forums like Marks Daily Apple, which is low carb, high fat paleo central, you'll find numerous threads started by people who went on the diet, lost weight and yet their cholesterol numbers skyrocketed. And their question is always, 'what went wrong?'. Well...duh! you ate more fat, that's why.1
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Big drop in HDL there and getting close to the minimum. Hmm.3
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Traveler120 wrote: »20yearsyounger wrote: »Traveler120 wrote: »20yearsyounger wrote: »Traveler120 wrote: »JanetYellen wrote: »If you stay within the same daily calories?
Please provide links.
I want exact info that shows daily caloric info and changes in cholesterol numbers.
Not just sites stating that if you replace the SAD junk food diet with this, well,, of coarse.
Info on diets like the mediterranean, or vegetarian diet vs high fat diet would be nice.
Which is better for cholesterol?
NO, a high fat diet INCREASED my cholesterol. This happened when I started eating low carb, high fat paleo. Prior to going paleo, I had normal labs. This was the first time I had dodgy labs.
On low carb, high fat paleo, I was eating 1500-1700 cals, was around 145 lbs, I'm 5' 4.5". I was mostly sedentary.
Total Cholesterol - 287 (should be <200)
LDL - 203 (should be <100)
HDL - 65 (should be >39)
Triglycerides - 90 (should be <125)
Last June, I changed my diet to a plant-based diet, low fat (10%) and high carb (75%). I had become more active, was eating about 1700-2000 cals and at the time of my blood test, I was about 135 lbs.
Total Cholesterol - 168 (down 41%)
LDL - 108 (down 47%)
HDL - 46
Triglycerides - 71
So, considering the difference in weight between the two tests was only about 10 lbs, and the calorie intake wasn't vastly different, the improvement in cholesterol can be attributed to reducing fat. Exercise also probably helped. I was previously eating a lot of meat, milk, cheese, eggs and used olive oil when cooking. Now I avoid using oil when cooking and have cut waaay back on animal foods. I still eat chocolates and ice cream as I did before though.
maybe. Although it was only a drop of 10lbs, a drop in overall body fat could change your numbers as well even with higher fat. HDL above 60 is a risk reduction factor.
Then how come my cholesterol was normal BEFORE I went low carb, high fat paleo, even though my weight was not that different? The most significant change from before paleo, was the increase in dietary fat.
Also, HDL typically goes up if you eat high fat. That's why most hardcore high fat paleos get very high HDL and it makes them feel better about their correspondingly high TC and LDL because it "improves" their ratios. The way I see it, instead of raising HDL to mop up after the bad cholesterol, how about keeping the bad cholesterol down in the first place.
My only argument is that because you only saw a 10lb different, it doesnt mean that your body composition doesnt come into play. Who knows what really happened unless you were measuring the other factors.
I dont eat high fat but my HDL levels are high. The only reason I commented there was because you went from one extreme high-fat to another extreme low-fat. Who is to say you wouldnt have good or better results at 15%,20%,25% 30% fat?
Because I've taken several tests in between those two and I can't argue with my own results, which show a downward trend with decreasing fat. Here's the thing, people are different. Some have a propensity for higher cholesterol than others do. Even at my low fat levels, you'll notice my LDL is 108 when it should be under 100. It's been over 6 months since my last test so I'll be testing again to see what's changed. So I'm one of those people who can't mess around with fatty foods and esp animal fats and get away with it, as I found out. Some folks eat ultra high fat and swear their labs are normal.
The only thing that should matter is how one's own body reacts to a particular diet. It's just like how some folks can't eat high carb and keep their blood glucose normal, whereas, I eat very high carb, mostly whole foods but I include sugar and sweets and yet, my last fasting blood glucose was 70 mg/dl(normal being 65-99). I have great insulin sensitivity, but can't handle too much fat. Works for me though because I prefer carbs and sweets anyway and I don't miss the types of fats that I've cut out. So it's win win.
Thanks for responding by the way. I dont disagree with anything you say. As a researcher, I just like to point out that correlation doesnt mean causation. I do like Mark's Daily Apple as well and you do know that 75% carbs doesnt fit that model. However, its all about making it work for you and it looks like you did just that.0 -
I dont have links but I do know for me going lower carb last year dropped all my numbers by half and my HDL went to a normal level as well as my triglycerides, my LDL was high though at this point. my cholesterol is back up, but not sure how high because my dr hasnt called back yet,but the nurse said it was high. its high because I went off low carb about 6 months ago. my cholesterol became an issue when I was 25lb less than I am now.They put me on a low cholesterol diet(no red meats,no fried foods,no oils,low fat,etc) and that raised everything higher than it was,but when I started eating those foods again but in moderation they went down some. I have had cholesterol issues for over 15 years. I have taken countless meds but am off them because of the side effects they were giving me. I cant tolerate statins well.so for me its back to low carb and medium level fat.so I think for everyone it will be different. some can go vegan or vegetarian and have success,some can go high carb and not have issues, I would say try it for a few months and have it checked and go from there.I dont think there is one way of eating that will work for everyone to lower cholesterol. everyone is going to have different results.0
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The LOOK AHEAD trial http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa1212914#results was abandoned when the reduced fat calorie restricted intervention was found to be ineffective in terms of outcomes.0
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Traveler120 wrote: »Also, I should add that if you go to forums like Marks Daily Apple, which is low carb, high fat paleo central, you'll find numerous threads started by people who went on the diet, lost weight and yet their cholesterol numbers skyrocketed. And their question is always, 'what went wrong?'. Well...duh! you ate more fat, that's why.
well, in your case, I remember very well that you never really ate paleo (significant amount of sugar and polenta)0 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »20yearsyounger wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »JanetYellen wrote: »If you stay within the same daily calories?
Please provide links.
I want exact info that shows daily caloric info and changes in cholesterol numbers.
Not just sites stating that if you replace the SAD junk food diet with this, well,, of coarse.
Info on diets like the mediterranean, or vegetarian diet vs high fat diet would be nice.
Which is better for cholesterol?
@JanetYellen a year into eating 5% carbs, 15% protein and 80% fat both my Total Cholesterol and HDL numbers are higher than pre LCHF.
journal-advocate.com/ci_20054451
HDL/Total Cholesterol ideal ratio is 0.24 or greater. Mine was 0.17 pre LCHF and 0.23 after 1 year LCHF.
Triglycerides/HDL ideal ratio is 2 or less. Mine was 3.02 pre LCHF and 0.72 after one year LCHF.
As you can after 1 year LCHF I moved from high risk of CVD to a very safe to very low CVD risk. It also lowered my risks of premature death across the board from July 2014 to the Nov 2015 lipid panel test.
This n=1 results is all I am interested in at a personal level.
Gale, just a quick question. What was your total cholestrol level for your final readings. I know you are using mostly ratios and therefore a higher HDL makes the numbers look better without any other changes. Not questioning if it worked for you or not. I am just curious as to how it fits in with the guidelines represented on the lab results (given that you said it was higher)
@20yearsyounger the numbers are at the office but I think as of Nov 2015 lipid test Total Cholesterol was down to 310 from 404 July 2015. July 2014 pre LCHF I think the reading was 213. I use the two ratios above to judge my health since we now know no study has shown cholesterol only levels to predict cardio vascular health risks.
Dang, that's some high cholesterol numbers (the higher ones). Great job on the improvements
I don't track macros, but just tracking calorie intake/staying at a lower bmi (lower end of healthy range), my cholesterol numbers have been pretty solid (May, 2015 total was 150/HDL:58/LDL:82/Triglycerides:49..... October, 2015 total was 167/HDL:69/LDL:97 (no triglycerides given that time.). My October numbers went up a bit, but with the improvements in HDL, I'm still pretty good. I've also been doing some reading on how lower total cholesterol numbers may actually not be best, so getting over 150 makes me feel a bit better. Now I'm curious to know what my fat intake is, maybe I'll start tracking it until I have my next blood work done (next month).0 -
Big drop in HDL there and getting close to the minimum. Hmm.
True...that's because the human body is smart enough to reduce the number of garbage trucks (HDL) in circulation, if there's less excess trash (LDL) to pick up. (excess as in beyond normal LDL levels).
Besides, even from the perspective of the ratios, they're all better than before, despite the lower HDL.
Total Chol/HDL (optimal 3.5 or less, per AHA)
Before: 287/65=4.4
After: 168/46=3.6
LDL/HDL (optimal=?? not sure. My lab rpt says 1.5 is lowest risk)
Before: 203/65=3.1
After: 108/46=2.3
Triglycerides/HDL (optimal 2 or less)
Before:95/65=1.5
After:71/46=1.51 -
ReaderGirl3 wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »20yearsyounger wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »JanetYellen wrote: »If you stay within the same daily calories?
Please provide links.
I want exact info that shows daily caloric info and changes in cholesterol numbers.
Not just sites stating that if you replace the SAD junk food diet with this, well,, of coarse.
Info on diets like the mediterranean, or vegetarian diet vs high fat diet would be nice.
Which is better for cholesterol?
@JanetYellen a year into eating 5% carbs, 15% protein and 80% fat both my Total Cholesterol and HDL numbers are higher than pre LCHF.
journal-advocate.com/ci_20054451
HDL/Total Cholesterol ideal ratio is 0.24 or greater. Mine was 0.17 pre LCHF and 0.23 after 1 year LCHF.
Triglycerides/HDL ideal ratio is 2 or less. Mine was 3.02 pre LCHF and 0.72 after one year LCHF.
As you can after 1 year LCHF I moved from high risk of CVD to a very safe to very low CVD risk. It also lowered my risks of premature death across the board from July 2014 to the Nov 2015 lipid panel test.
This n=1 results is all I am interested in at a personal level.
Gale, just a quick question. What was your total cholestrol level for your final readings. I know you are using mostly ratios and therefore a higher HDL makes the numbers look better without any other changes. Not questioning if it worked for you or not. I am just curious as to how it fits in with the guidelines represented on the lab results (given that you said it was higher)
@20yearsyounger the numbers are at the office but I think as of Nov 2015 lipid test Total Cholesterol was down to 310 from 404 July 2015. July 2014 pre LCHF I think the reading was 213. I use the two ratios above to judge my health since we now know no study has shown cholesterol only levels to predict cardio vascular health risks.
Dang, that's some high cholesterol numbers (the higher ones). Great job on the improvements
I don't track macros, but just tracking calorie intake/staying at a lower bmi (lower end of healthy range), my cholesterol numbers have been pretty solid (May, 2015 total was 150/HDL:58/LDL:82/Triglycerides:49..... October, 2015 total was 167/HDL:69/LDL:97 (no triglycerides given that time.). My October numbers went up a bit, but with the improvements in HDL, I'm still pretty good. I've also been doing some reading on how lower total cholesterol numbers may actually not be best, so getting over 150 makes me feel a bit better. Now I'm curious to know what my fat intake is, maybe I'll start tracking it until I have my next blood work done (next month).
@ReaderGirl3 clearly you have good lipid panel test results.
My total cholesterol goal is in the 200-250 range being an older guy (65) planning to live to be 110. From research I have read for old guys like me as long as we keep our total cholesterol levels as high as 200 we have no increase in risk or premature death, dementia, heart, etc. I hope my next round of testing may show me back down to my 213 pre LCHF values based on the fast drop from 404 to 310 over a period of 5 months.
Having maintained at 200 pounds for the 12 months at about 2500+ LCHF calories I am considering cutting back on the fats and work down to 175 which would give me a BMI of around 25.
Even holding an OD degree and have read medical research for years as it relates to my Ankylosing Spondylitis trying to make heads and tails out of research about cholesterol levels is confusing. At this point in time I think the Triglyceride/HDL ratio is the one health risk indicator that I trust and that it should be <2 (currently I am at 0.72) and keeping my Total Cholesterol at 200 - 250 are my only lipid goals. My goal to live to be 110 includes doing it walking and talking the entire way.
It makes me glad to seeing young people learning how to eat for health at a young age so you all do not wake up at the age of 63 realizing you have wrecked your health the way I did on yo yo dieting for 40 years.
While I know what is currently working for me I have no way to know how what others should eat. I do encourage younger people to read and select a Way Of Eating that sounds interesting and try it in 90 day steps until one can rule it in or out as working for them. If it is not then modify or replace that WOE with another one that sounds interesting.
Preventing a premature death from eating the wrong way is very doable when one is young. Reversing damage from eating in a way that was wrong for one's body is not as doable but cutting out most of my serious pain, resolving my 40 years of IBS, improving health markers while having less fat and more muscles by diet and walking a 1/4 mile daily indicates I need to keep working to reverse my damaged health. 0 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »ReaderGirl3 wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »20yearsyounger wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »JanetYellen wrote: »If you stay within the same daily calories?
Please provide links.
I want exact info that shows daily caloric info and changes in cholesterol numbers.
Not just sites stating that if you replace the SAD junk food diet with this, well,, of coarse.
Info on diets like the mediterranean, or vegetarian diet vs high fat diet would be nice.
Which is better for cholesterol?
@JanetYellen a year into eating 5% carbs, 15% protein and 80% fat both my Total Cholesterol and HDL numbers are higher than pre LCHF.
journal-advocate.com/ci_20054451
HDL/Total Cholesterol ideal ratio is 0.24 or greater. Mine was 0.17 pre LCHF and 0.23 after 1 year LCHF.
Triglycerides/HDL ideal ratio is 2 or less. Mine was 3.02 pre LCHF and 0.72 after one year LCHF.
As you can after 1 year LCHF I moved from high risk of CVD to a very safe to very low CVD risk. It also lowered my risks of premature death across the board from July 2014 to the Nov 2015 lipid panel test.
This n=1 results is all I am interested in at a personal level.
Gale, just a quick question. What was your total cholestrol level for your final readings. I know you are using mostly ratios and therefore a higher HDL makes the numbers look better without any other changes. Not questioning if it worked for you or not. I am just curious as to how it fits in with the guidelines represented on the lab results (given that you said it was higher)
@20yearsyounger the numbers are at the office but I think as of Nov 2015 lipid test Total Cholesterol was down to 310 from 404 July 2015. July 2014 pre LCHF I think the reading was 213. I use the two ratios above to judge my health since we now know no study has shown cholesterol only levels to predict cardio vascular health risks.
Dang, that's some high cholesterol numbers (the higher ones). Great job on the improvements
I don't track macros, but just tracking calorie intake/staying at a lower bmi (lower end of healthy range), my cholesterol numbers have been pretty solid (May, 2015 total was 150/HDL:58/LDL:82/Triglycerides:49..... October, 2015 total was 167/HDL:69/LDL:97 (no triglycerides given that time.). My October numbers went up a bit, but with the improvements in HDL, I'm still pretty good. I've also been doing some reading on how lower total cholesterol numbers may actually not be best, so getting over 150 makes me feel a bit better. Now I'm curious to know what my fat intake is, maybe I'll start tracking it until I have my next blood work done (next month).
@ReaderGirl3 clearly you have good lipid panel test results.
My total cholesterol goal is in the 200-250 range being an older guy (65) planning to live to be 110. From research I have read for old guys like me as long as we keep our total cholesterol levels as high as 200 we have no increase in risk or premature death, dementia, heart, etc. I hope my next round of testing may show me back down to my 213 pre LCHF values based on the fast drop from 404 to 310 over a period of 5 months.
Having maintained at 200 pounds for the 12 months at about 2500+ LCHF calories I am considering cutting back on the fats and work down to 175 which would give me a BMI of around 25.
Even holding an OD degree and have read medical research for years as it relates to my Ankylosing Spondylitis trying to make heads and tails out of research about cholesterol levels is confusing. At this point in time I think the Triglyceride/HDL ratio is the one health risk indicator that I trust and that it should be <2 (currently I am at 0.72) and keeping my Total Cholesterol at 200 - 250 are my only lipid goals. My goal to live to be 110 includes doing it walking and talking the entire way.
It makes me glad to seeing young people learning how to eat for health at a young age so you all do not wake up at the age of 63 realizing you have wrecked your health the way I did on yo yo dieting for 40 years.
While I know what is currently working for me I have no way to know how what others should eat. I do encourage younger people to read and select a Way Of Eating that sounds interesting and try it in 90 day steps until one can rule it in or out as working for them. If it is not then modify or replace that WOE with another one that sounds interesting.
Preventing a premature death from eating the wrong way is very doable when one is young. Reversing damage from eating in a way that was wrong for one's body is not as doable but cutting out most of my serious pain, resolving my 40 years of IBS, improving health markers while having less fat and more muscles by diet and walking a 1/4 mile daily indicates I need to keep working to reverse my damaged health.
Gale, your plan sounds like a good one. Any real reason you chose to cut the fats versus cutting other areas in order to reduce the overall calories? I have a special interest in metabolic syndrome related research etc (even if it is n=1) and though we may have some differences with regard to your thoughts on carbs, what you are doing is still interesting.0 -
Traveler120 wrote: »Big drop in HDL there and getting close to the minimum. Hmm.
True...that's because the human body is smart enough to reduce the number of garbage trucks (HDL) in circulation, if there's less excess trash (LDL) to pick up. (excess as in beyond normal LDL levels).
Besides, even from the perspective of the ratios, they're all better than before, despite the lower HDL.
Total Chol/HDL (optimal 3.5 or less, per AHA)
Before: 287/65=4.4
After: 168/46=3.6
LDL/HDL (optimal=?? not sure. My lab rpt says 1.5 is lowest risk)
Before: 203/65=3.1
After: 108/46=2.3
Triglycerides/HDL (optimal 2 or less)
Before:95/65=1.5
After:71/46=1.5
@Traveler120 I have read about the 'garbage truck' needed number going down. It will be interesting to see your next HDL numbers. Also test results can vary for many reasons and only one set of test results is not enough info to change one's WOE I read. I am sure if your HDL drops another 19 points one the next lipid panel test then you will to the bottom of the WHY.0 -
A discussion about the notion that dietary fat influences serum cholesterol http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.co.uk/2011/01/does-dietary-saturated-fat-increase.html?m=1
n>14
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