Welcome to Debate Club! Please be aware that this is a space for respectful debate, and that your ideas will be challenged here. Please remember to critique the argument, not the author.
Does a high fat diet reduce cholesterol numbers?
Replies
-
Traveler120 wrote: »20yearsyounger wrote: »Traveler120 wrote: »20yearsyounger wrote: »Traveler120 wrote: »JanetYellen wrote: »If you stay within the same daily calories?
Please provide links.
I want exact info that shows daily caloric info and changes in cholesterol numbers.
Not just sites stating that if you replace the SAD junk food diet with this, well,, of coarse.
Info on diets like the mediterranean, or vegetarian diet vs high fat diet would be nice.
Which is better for cholesterol?
NO, a high fat diet INCREASED my cholesterol. This happened when I started eating low carb, high fat paleo. Prior to going paleo, I had normal labs. This was the first time I had dodgy labs.
On low carb, high fat paleo, I was eating 1500-1700 cals, was around 145 lbs, I'm 5' 4.5". I was mostly sedentary.
Total Cholesterol - 287 (should be <200)
LDL - 203 (should be <100)
HDL - 65 (should be >39)
Triglycerides - 90 (should be <125)
Last June, I changed my diet to a plant-based diet, low fat (10%) and high carb (75%). I had become more active, was eating about 1700-2000 cals and at the time of my blood test, I was about 135 lbs.
Total Cholesterol - 168 (down 41%)
LDL - 108 (down 47%)
HDL - 46
Triglycerides - 71
So, considering the difference in weight between the two tests was only about 10 lbs, and the calorie intake wasn't vastly different, the improvement in cholesterol can be attributed to reducing fat. Exercise also probably helped. I was previously eating a lot of meat, milk, cheese, eggs and used olive oil when cooking. Now I avoid using oil when cooking and have cut waaay back on animal foods. I still eat chocolates and ice cream as I did before though.
maybe. Although it was only a drop of 10lbs, a drop in overall body fat could change your numbers as well even with higher fat. HDL above 60 is a risk reduction factor.
Then how come my cholesterol was normal BEFORE I went low carb, high fat paleo, even though my weight was not that different? The most significant change from before paleo, was the increase in dietary fat.
Also, HDL typically goes up if you eat high fat. That's why most hardcore high fat paleos get very high HDL and it makes them feel better about their correspondingly high TC and LDL because it "improves" their ratios. The way I see it, instead of raising HDL to mop up after the bad cholesterol, how about keeping the bad cholesterol down in the first place.
My only argument is that because you only saw a 10lb different, it doesnt mean that your body composition doesnt come into play. Who knows what really happened unless you were measuring the other factors.
I dont eat high fat but my HDL levels are high. The only reason I commented there was because you went from one extreme high-fat to another extreme low-fat. Who is to say you wouldnt have good or better results at 15%,20%,25% 30% fat?
Because I've taken several tests in between those two and I can't argue with my own results, which show a downward trend with decreasing fat. Here's the thing, people are different. Some have a propensity for higher cholesterol than others do. Even at my low fat levels, you'll notice my LDL is 108 when it should be under 100. It's been over 6 months since my last test so I'll be testing again to see what's changed. So I'm one of those people who can't mess around with fatty foods and esp animal fats and get away with it, as I found out. Some folks eat ultra high fat and swear their labs are normal.
The only thing that should matter is how one's own body reacts to a particular diet. It's just like how some folks can't eat high carb and keep their blood glucose normal, whereas, I eat very high carb, mostly whole foods but I include sugar and sweets and yet, my last fasting blood glucose was 70 mg/dl(normal being 65-99). I have great insulin sensitivity, but can't handle too much fat. Works for me though because I prefer carbs and sweets anyway and I don't miss the types of fats that I've cut out. So it's win win.
Thanks for responding by the way. I dont disagree with anything you say. As a researcher, I just like to point out that correlation doesnt mean causation. I do like Mark's Daily Apple as well and you do know that 75% carbs doesnt fit that model. However, its all about making it work for you and it looks like you did just that.0 -
I dont have links but I do know for me going lower carb last year dropped all my numbers by half and my HDL went to a normal level as well as my triglycerides, my LDL was high though at this point. my cholesterol is back up, but not sure how high because my dr hasnt called back yet,but the nurse said it was high. its high because I went off low carb about 6 months ago. my cholesterol became an issue when I was 25lb less than I am now.They put me on a low cholesterol diet(no red meats,no fried foods,no oils,low fat,etc) and that raised everything higher than it was,but when I started eating those foods again but in moderation they went down some. I have had cholesterol issues for over 15 years. I have taken countless meds but am off them because of the side effects they were giving me. I cant tolerate statins well.so for me its back to low carb and medium level fat.so I think for everyone it will be different. some can go vegan or vegetarian and have success,some can go high carb and not have issues, I would say try it for a few months and have it checked and go from there.I dont think there is one way of eating that will work for everyone to lower cholesterol. everyone is going to have different results.0
-
The LOOK AHEAD trial http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa1212914#results was abandoned when the reduced fat calorie restricted intervention was found to be ineffective in terms of outcomes.0
-
Traveler120 wrote: »Also, I should add that if you go to forums like Marks Daily Apple, which is low carb, high fat paleo central, you'll find numerous threads started by people who went on the diet, lost weight and yet their cholesterol numbers skyrocketed. And their question is always, 'what went wrong?'. Well...duh! you ate more fat, that's why.
well, in your case, I remember very well that you never really ate paleo (significant amount of sugar and polenta)0 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »20yearsyounger wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »JanetYellen wrote: »If you stay within the same daily calories?
Please provide links.
I want exact info that shows daily caloric info and changes in cholesterol numbers.
Not just sites stating that if you replace the SAD junk food diet with this, well,, of coarse.
Info on diets like the mediterranean, or vegetarian diet vs high fat diet would be nice.
Which is better for cholesterol?
@JanetYellen a year into eating 5% carbs, 15% protein and 80% fat both my Total Cholesterol and HDL numbers are higher than pre LCHF.
journal-advocate.com/ci_20054451
HDL/Total Cholesterol ideal ratio is 0.24 or greater. Mine was 0.17 pre LCHF and 0.23 after 1 year LCHF.
Triglycerides/HDL ideal ratio is 2 or less. Mine was 3.02 pre LCHF and 0.72 after one year LCHF.
As you can after 1 year LCHF I moved from high risk of CVD to a very safe to very low CVD risk. It also lowered my risks of premature death across the board from July 2014 to the Nov 2015 lipid panel test.
This n=1 results is all I am interested in at a personal level.
Gale, just a quick question. What was your total cholestrol level for your final readings. I know you are using mostly ratios and therefore a higher HDL makes the numbers look better without any other changes. Not questioning if it worked for you or not. I am just curious as to how it fits in with the guidelines represented on the lab results (given that you said it was higher)
@20yearsyounger the numbers are at the office but I think as of Nov 2015 lipid test Total Cholesterol was down to 310 from 404 July 2015. July 2014 pre LCHF I think the reading was 213. I use the two ratios above to judge my health since we now know no study has shown cholesterol only levels to predict cardio vascular health risks.
Dang, that's some high cholesterol numbers (the higher ones). Great job on the improvements
I don't track macros, but just tracking calorie intake/staying at a lower bmi (lower end of healthy range), my cholesterol numbers have been pretty solid (May, 2015 total was 150/HDL:58/LDL:82/Triglycerides:49..... October, 2015 total was 167/HDL:69/LDL:97 (no triglycerides given that time.). My October numbers went up a bit, but with the improvements in HDL, I'm still pretty good. I've also been doing some reading on how lower total cholesterol numbers may actually not be best, so getting over 150 makes me feel a bit better. Now I'm curious to know what my fat intake is, maybe I'll start tracking it until I have my next blood work done (next month).0 -
Big drop in HDL there and getting close to the minimum. Hmm.
True...that's because the human body is smart enough to reduce the number of garbage trucks (HDL) in circulation, if there's less excess trash (LDL) to pick up. (excess as in beyond normal LDL levels).
Besides, even from the perspective of the ratios, they're all better than before, despite the lower HDL.
Total Chol/HDL (optimal 3.5 or less, per AHA)
Before: 287/65=4.4
After: 168/46=3.6
LDL/HDL (optimal=?? not sure. My lab rpt says 1.5 is lowest risk)
Before: 203/65=3.1
After: 108/46=2.3
Triglycerides/HDL (optimal 2 or less)
Before:95/65=1.5
After:71/46=1.51 -
ReaderGirl3 wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »20yearsyounger wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »JanetYellen wrote: »If you stay within the same daily calories?
Please provide links.
I want exact info that shows daily caloric info and changes in cholesterol numbers.
Not just sites stating that if you replace the SAD junk food diet with this, well,, of coarse.
Info on diets like the mediterranean, or vegetarian diet vs high fat diet would be nice.
Which is better for cholesterol?
@JanetYellen a year into eating 5% carbs, 15% protein and 80% fat both my Total Cholesterol and HDL numbers are higher than pre LCHF.
journal-advocate.com/ci_20054451
HDL/Total Cholesterol ideal ratio is 0.24 or greater. Mine was 0.17 pre LCHF and 0.23 after 1 year LCHF.
Triglycerides/HDL ideal ratio is 2 or less. Mine was 3.02 pre LCHF and 0.72 after one year LCHF.
As you can after 1 year LCHF I moved from high risk of CVD to a very safe to very low CVD risk. It also lowered my risks of premature death across the board from July 2014 to the Nov 2015 lipid panel test.
This n=1 results is all I am interested in at a personal level.
Gale, just a quick question. What was your total cholestrol level for your final readings. I know you are using mostly ratios and therefore a higher HDL makes the numbers look better without any other changes. Not questioning if it worked for you or not. I am just curious as to how it fits in with the guidelines represented on the lab results (given that you said it was higher)
@20yearsyounger the numbers are at the office but I think as of Nov 2015 lipid test Total Cholesterol was down to 310 from 404 July 2015. July 2014 pre LCHF I think the reading was 213. I use the two ratios above to judge my health since we now know no study has shown cholesterol only levels to predict cardio vascular health risks.
Dang, that's some high cholesterol numbers (the higher ones). Great job on the improvements
I don't track macros, but just tracking calorie intake/staying at a lower bmi (lower end of healthy range), my cholesterol numbers have been pretty solid (May, 2015 total was 150/HDL:58/LDL:82/Triglycerides:49..... October, 2015 total was 167/HDL:69/LDL:97 (no triglycerides given that time.). My October numbers went up a bit, but with the improvements in HDL, I'm still pretty good. I've also been doing some reading on how lower total cholesterol numbers may actually not be best, so getting over 150 makes me feel a bit better. Now I'm curious to know what my fat intake is, maybe I'll start tracking it until I have my next blood work done (next month).
@ReaderGirl3 clearly you have good lipid panel test results.
My total cholesterol goal is in the 200-250 range being an older guy (65) planning to live to be 110. From research I have read for old guys like me as long as we keep our total cholesterol levels as high as 200 we have no increase in risk or premature death, dementia, heart, etc. I hope my next round of testing may show me back down to my 213 pre LCHF values based on the fast drop from 404 to 310 over a period of 5 months.
Having maintained at 200 pounds for the 12 months at about 2500+ LCHF calories I am considering cutting back on the fats and work down to 175 which would give me a BMI of around 25.
Even holding an OD degree and have read medical research for years as it relates to my Ankylosing Spondylitis trying to make heads and tails out of research about cholesterol levels is confusing. At this point in time I think the Triglyceride/HDL ratio is the one health risk indicator that I trust and that it should be <2 (currently I am at 0.72) and keeping my Total Cholesterol at 200 - 250 are my only lipid goals. My goal to live to be 110 includes doing it walking and talking the entire way.
It makes me glad to seeing young people learning how to eat for health at a young age so you all do not wake up at the age of 63 realizing you have wrecked your health the way I did on yo yo dieting for 40 years.
While I know what is currently working for me I have no way to know how what others should eat. I do encourage younger people to read and select a Way Of Eating that sounds interesting and try it in 90 day steps until one can rule it in or out as working for them. If it is not then modify or replace that WOE with another one that sounds interesting.
Preventing a premature death from eating the wrong way is very doable when one is young. Reversing damage from eating in a way that was wrong for one's body is not as doable but cutting out most of my serious pain, resolving my 40 years of IBS, improving health markers while having less fat and more muscles by diet and walking a 1/4 mile daily indicates I need to keep working to reverse my damaged health. 0 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »ReaderGirl3 wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »20yearsyounger wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »JanetYellen wrote: »If you stay within the same daily calories?
Please provide links.
I want exact info that shows daily caloric info and changes in cholesterol numbers.
Not just sites stating that if you replace the SAD junk food diet with this, well,, of coarse.
Info on diets like the mediterranean, or vegetarian diet vs high fat diet would be nice.
Which is better for cholesterol?
@JanetYellen a year into eating 5% carbs, 15% protein and 80% fat both my Total Cholesterol and HDL numbers are higher than pre LCHF.
journal-advocate.com/ci_20054451
HDL/Total Cholesterol ideal ratio is 0.24 or greater. Mine was 0.17 pre LCHF and 0.23 after 1 year LCHF.
Triglycerides/HDL ideal ratio is 2 or less. Mine was 3.02 pre LCHF and 0.72 after one year LCHF.
As you can after 1 year LCHF I moved from high risk of CVD to a very safe to very low CVD risk. It also lowered my risks of premature death across the board from July 2014 to the Nov 2015 lipid panel test.
This n=1 results is all I am interested in at a personal level.
Gale, just a quick question. What was your total cholestrol level for your final readings. I know you are using mostly ratios and therefore a higher HDL makes the numbers look better without any other changes. Not questioning if it worked for you or not. I am just curious as to how it fits in with the guidelines represented on the lab results (given that you said it was higher)
@20yearsyounger the numbers are at the office but I think as of Nov 2015 lipid test Total Cholesterol was down to 310 from 404 July 2015. July 2014 pre LCHF I think the reading was 213. I use the two ratios above to judge my health since we now know no study has shown cholesterol only levels to predict cardio vascular health risks.
Dang, that's some high cholesterol numbers (the higher ones). Great job on the improvements
I don't track macros, but just tracking calorie intake/staying at a lower bmi (lower end of healthy range), my cholesterol numbers have been pretty solid (May, 2015 total was 150/HDL:58/LDL:82/Triglycerides:49..... October, 2015 total was 167/HDL:69/LDL:97 (no triglycerides given that time.). My October numbers went up a bit, but with the improvements in HDL, I'm still pretty good. I've also been doing some reading on how lower total cholesterol numbers may actually not be best, so getting over 150 makes me feel a bit better. Now I'm curious to know what my fat intake is, maybe I'll start tracking it until I have my next blood work done (next month).
@ReaderGirl3 clearly you have good lipid panel test results.
My total cholesterol goal is in the 200-250 range being an older guy (65) planning to live to be 110. From research I have read for old guys like me as long as we keep our total cholesterol levels as high as 200 we have no increase in risk or premature death, dementia, heart, etc. I hope my next round of testing may show me back down to my 213 pre LCHF values based on the fast drop from 404 to 310 over a period of 5 months.
Having maintained at 200 pounds for the 12 months at about 2500+ LCHF calories I am considering cutting back on the fats and work down to 175 which would give me a BMI of around 25.
Even holding an OD degree and have read medical research for years as it relates to my Ankylosing Spondylitis trying to make heads and tails out of research about cholesterol levels is confusing. At this point in time I think the Triglyceride/HDL ratio is the one health risk indicator that I trust and that it should be <2 (currently I am at 0.72) and keeping my Total Cholesterol at 200 - 250 are my only lipid goals. My goal to live to be 110 includes doing it walking and talking the entire way.
It makes me glad to seeing young people learning how to eat for health at a young age so you all do not wake up at the age of 63 realizing you have wrecked your health the way I did on yo yo dieting for 40 years.
While I know what is currently working for me I have no way to know how what others should eat. I do encourage younger people to read and select a Way Of Eating that sounds interesting and try it in 90 day steps until one can rule it in or out as working for them. If it is not then modify or replace that WOE with another one that sounds interesting.
Preventing a premature death from eating the wrong way is very doable when one is young. Reversing damage from eating in a way that was wrong for one's body is not as doable but cutting out most of my serious pain, resolving my 40 years of IBS, improving health markers while having less fat and more muscles by diet and walking a 1/4 mile daily indicates I need to keep working to reverse my damaged health.
Gale, your plan sounds like a good one. Any real reason you chose to cut the fats versus cutting other areas in order to reduce the overall calories? I have a special interest in metabolic syndrome related research etc (even if it is n=1) and though we may have some differences with regard to your thoughts on carbs, what you are doing is still interesting.0 -
Traveler120 wrote: »Big drop in HDL there and getting close to the minimum. Hmm.
True...that's because the human body is smart enough to reduce the number of garbage trucks (HDL) in circulation, if there's less excess trash (LDL) to pick up. (excess as in beyond normal LDL levels).
Besides, even from the perspective of the ratios, they're all better than before, despite the lower HDL.
Total Chol/HDL (optimal 3.5 or less, per AHA)
Before: 287/65=4.4
After: 168/46=3.6
LDL/HDL (optimal=?? not sure. My lab rpt says 1.5 is lowest risk)
Before: 203/65=3.1
After: 108/46=2.3
Triglycerides/HDL (optimal 2 or less)
Before:95/65=1.5
After:71/46=1.5
@Traveler120 I have read about the 'garbage truck' needed number going down. It will be interesting to see your next HDL numbers. Also test results can vary for many reasons and only one set of test results is not enough info to change one's WOE I read. I am sure if your HDL drops another 19 points one the next lipid panel test then you will to the bottom of the WHY.0 -
A discussion about the notion that dietary fat influences serum cholesterol http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.co.uk/2011/01/does-dietary-saturated-fat-increase.html?m=1
n>14 -
20yearsyounger wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »ReaderGirl3 wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »20yearsyounger wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »JanetYellen wrote: »If you stay within the same daily calories?
Please provide links.
I want exact info that shows daily caloric info and changes in cholesterol numbers.
Not just sites stating that if you replace the SAD junk food diet with this, well,, of coarse.
Info on diets like the mediterranean, or vegetarian diet vs high fat diet would be nice.
Which is better for cholesterol?
@JanetYellen a year into eating 5% carbs, 15% protein and 80% fat both my Total Cholesterol and HDL numbers are higher than pre LCHF.
journal-advocate.com/ci_20054451
HDL/Total Cholesterol ideal ratio is 0.24 or greater. Mine was 0.17 pre LCHF and 0.23 after 1 year LCHF.
Triglycerides/HDL ideal ratio is 2 or less. Mine was 3.02 pre LCHF and 0.72 after one year LCHF.
As you can after 1 year LCHF I moved from high risk of CVD to a very safe to very low CVD risk. It also lowered my risks of premature death across the board from July 2014 to the Nov 2015 lipid panel test.
This n=1 results is all I am interested in at a personal level.
Gale, just a quick question. What was your total cholestrol level for your final readings. I know you are using mostly ratios and therefore a higher HDL makes the numbers look better without any other changes. Not questioning if it worked for you or not. I am just curious as to how it fits in with the guidelines represented on the lab results (given that you said it was higher)
@20yearsyounger the numbers are at the office but I think as of Nov 2015 lipid test Total Cholesterol was down to 310 from 404 July 2015. July 2014 pre LCHF I think the reading was 213. I use the two ratios above to judge my health since we now know no study has shown cholesterol only levels to predict cardio vascular health risks.
Dang, that's some high cholesterol numbers (the higher ones). Great job on the improvements
I don't track macros, but just tracking calorie intake/staying at a lower bmi (lower end of healthy range), my cholesterol numbers have been pretty solid (May, 2015 total was 150/HDL:58/LDL:82/Triglycerides:49..... October, 2015 total was 167/HDL:69/LDL:97 (no triglycerides given that time.). My October numbers went up a bit, but with the improvements in HDL, I'm still pretty good. I've also been doing some reading on how lower total cholesterol numbers may actually not be best, so getting over 150 makes me feel a bit better. Now I'm curious to know what my fat intake is, maybe I'll start tracking it until I have my next blood work done (next month).
@ReaderGirl3 clearly you have good lipid panel test results.
My total cholesterol goal is in the 200-250 range being an older guy (65) planning to live to be 110. From research I have read for old guys like me as long as we keep our total cholesterol levels as high as 200 we have no increase in risk or premature death, dementia, heart, etc. I hope my next round of testing may show me back down to my 213 pre LCHF values based on the fast drop from 404 to 310 over a period of 5 months.
Having maintained at 200 pounds for the 12 months at about 2500+ LCHF calories I am considering cutting back on the fats and work down to 175 which would give me a BMI of around 25.
Even holding an OD degree and have read medical research for years as it relates to my Ankylosing Spondylitis trying to make heads and tails out of research about cholesterol levels is confusing. At this point in time I think the Triglyceride/HDL ratio is the one health risk indicator that I trust and that it should be <2 (currently I am at 0.72) and keeping my Total Cholesterol at 200 - 250 are my only lipid goals. My goal to live to be 110 includes doing it walking and talking the entire way.
It makes me glad to seeing young people learning how to eat for health at a young age so you all do not wake up at the age of 63 realizing you have wrecked your health the way I did on yo yo dieting for 40 years.
While I know what is currently working for me I have no way to know how what others should eat. I do encourage younger people to read and select a Way Of Eating that sounds interesting and try it in 90 day steps until one can rule it in or out as working for them. If it is not then modify or replace that WOE with another one that sounds interesting.
Preventing a premature death from eating the wrong way is very doable when one is young. Reversing damage from eating in a way that was wrong for one's body is not as doable but cutting out most of my serious pain, resolving my 40 years of IBS, improving health markers while having less fat and more muscles by diet and walking a 1/4 mile daily indicates I need to keep working to reverse my damaged health.
Gale, your plan sounds like a good one. Any real reason you chose to cut the fats versus cutting other areas in order to reduce the overall calories? I have a special interest in metabolic syndrome related research etc (even if it is n=1) and though we may have some differences with regard to your thoughts on carbs, what you are doing is still interesting.
@20yearsyounger I want to stay in nutritional ketosis for its potential to reverse some health damage and protect from cancer, heart and dementia based on research I am learning about almost daily.
With a macro of 5% carb, 15% protein and 80% fat the only place I am willing to cut is the fat part of my macro.
My thoughts on carbs are they typically are an awesome source of a healthy way of eating provided us by nature and they make up a large part of diets of people who live to be 100 years or older. In what way are your thoughts on carbs different.0 -
A discussion about the notion that dietary fat influences serum cholesterol http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.co.uk/2011/01/does-dietary-saturated-fat-increase.html?m=1
n>1
@yarwell thanks for this awesome link. While I had never read this review of research it does support my findings. That is the reason I have no real concern with my LDL results, eat a lot of saturated fats and under no circumstance that I know about today would ever subject myself to statins health risks.0 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »Traveler120 wrote: »Big drop in HDL there and getting close to the minimum. Hmm.
True...that's because the human body is smart enough to reduce the number of garbage trucks (HDL) in circulation, if there's less excess trash (LDL) to pick up. (excess as in beyond normal LDL levels).
Besides, even from the perspective of the ratios, they're all better than before, despite the lower HDL.
Total Chol/HDL (optimal 3.5 or less, per AHA)
Before: 287/65=4.4
After: 168/46=3.6
LDL/HDL (optimal=?? not sure. My lab rpt says 1.5 is lowest risk)
Before: 203/65=3.1
After: 108/46=2.3
Triglycerides/HDL (optimal 2 or less)
Before:95/65=1.5
After:71/46=1.5
@Traveler120 I have read about the 'garbage truck' needed number going down. It will be interesting to see your next HDL numbers. Also test results can vary for many reasons and only one set of test results is not enough info to change one's WOE I read. I am sure if your HDL drops another 19 points one the next lipid panel test then you will to the bottom of the WHY.
Ya, there's been more than 1 set of tests.
No, there's no reason to expect a drop in HDL. My diet and exercise has remained about the same as last time I took the test. I had also taken another test 3 months prior to that one and my HDL was 45, so it actually increased by 1 point while LDL continued to go down. So based on my own history, I should be good on that front.
The only other reasons I can find that typically cause a drop in HDL, is sedentary lifestyle, syndrome X (obesity, high blood pressure, glucose intolerance etc), smoking, alcohol, drugs/meds........and so on. None of these are applicable to me, so I should be good.0 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »20yearsyounger wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »ReaderGirl3 wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »20yearsyounger wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »JanetYellen wrote: »If you stay within the same daily calories?
Please provide links.
I want exact info that shows daily caloric info and changes in cholesterol numbers.
Not just sites stating that if you replace the SAD junk food diet with this, well,, of coarse.
Info on diets like the mediterranean, or vegetarian diet vs high fat diet would be nice.
Which is better for cholesterol?
@JanetYellen a year into eating 5% carbs, 15% protein and 80% fat both my Total Cholesterol and HDL numbers are higher than pre LCHF.
journal-advocate.com/ci_20054451
HDL/Total Cholesterol ideal ratio is 0.24 or greater. Mine was 0.17 pre LCHF and 0.23 after 1 year LCHF.
Triglycerides/HDL ideal ratio is 2 or less. Mine was 3.02 pre LCHF and 0.72 after one year LCHF.
As you can after 1 year LCHF I moved from high risk of CVD to a very safe to very low CVD risk. It also lowered my risks of premature death across the board from July 2014 to the Nov 2015 lipid panel test.
This n=1 results is all I am interested in at a personal level.
Gale, just a quick question. What was your total cholestrol level for your final readings. I know you are using mostly ratios and therefore a higher HDL makes the numbers look better without any other changes. Not questioning if it worked for you or not. I am just curious as to how it fits in with the guidelines represented on the lab results (given that you said it was higher)
@20yearsyounger the numbers are at the office but I think as of Nov 2015 lipid test Total Cholesterol was down to 310 from 404 July 2015. July 2014 pre LCHF I think the reading was 213. I use the two ratios above to judge my health since we now know no study has shown cholesterol only levels to predict cardio vascular health risks.
Dang, that's some high cholesterol numbers (the higher ones). Great job on the improvements
I don't track macros, but just tracking calorie intake/staying at a lower bmi (lower end of healthy range), my cholesterol numbers have been pretty solid (May, 2015 total was 150/HDL:58/LDL:82/Triglycerides:49..... October, 2015 total was 167/HDL:69/LDL:97 (no triglycerides given that time.). My October numbers went up a bit, but with the improvements in HDL, I'm still pretty good. I've also been doing some reading on how lower total cholesterol numbers may actually not be best, so getting over 150 makes me feel a bit better. Now I'm curious to know what my fat intake is, maybe I'll start tracking it until I have my next blood work done (next month).
@ReaderGirl3 clearly you have good lipid panel test results.
My total cholesterol goal is in the 200-250 range being an older guy (65) planning to live to be 110. From research I have read for old guys like me as long as we keep our total cholesterol levels as high as 200 we have no increase in risk or premature death, dementia, heart, etc. I hope my next round of testing may show me back down to my 213 pre LCHF values based on the fast drop from 404 to 310 over a period of 5 months.
Having maintained at 200 pounds for the 12 months at about 2500+ LCHF calories I am considering cutting back on the fats and work down to 175 which would give me a BMI of around 25.
Even holding an OD degree and have read medical research for years as it relates to my Ankylosing Spondylitis trying to make heads and tails out of research about cholesterol levels is confusing. At this point in time I think the Triglyceride/HDL ratio is the one health risk indicator that I trust and that it should be <2 (currently I am at 0.72) and keeping my Total Cholesterol at 200 - 250 are my only lipid goals. My goal to live to be 110 includes doing it walking and talking the entire way.
It makes me glad to seeing young people learning how to eat for health at a young age so you all do not wake up at the age of 63 realizing you have wrecked your health the way I did on yo yo dieting for 40 years.
While I know what is currently working for me I have no way to know how what others should eat. I do encourage younger people to read and select a Way Of Eating that sounds interesting and try it in 90 day steps until one can rule it in or out as working for them. If it is not then modify or replace that WOE with another one that sounds interesting.
Preventing a premature death from eating the wrong way is very doable when one is young. Reversing damage from eating in a way that was wrong for one's body is not as doable but cutting out most of my serious pain, resolving my 40 years of IBS, improving health markers while having less fat and more muscles by diet and walking a 1/4 mile daily indicates I need to keep working to reverse my damaged health.
Gale, your plan sounds like a good one. Any real reason you chose to cut the fats versus cutting other areas in order to reduce the overall calories? I have a special interest in metabolic syndrome related research etc (even if it is n=1) and though we may have some differences with regard to your thoughts on carbs, what you are doing is still interesting.
@20yearsyounger I want to stay in nutritional ketosis for its potential to reverse some health damage and protect from cancer, heart and dementia based on research I am learning about almost daily.
With a macro of 5% carb, 15% protein and 80% fat the only place I am willing to cut is the fat part of my macro.
My thoughts on carbs are they typically are an awesome source of a healthy way of eating provided us by nature and they make up a large part of diets of people who live to be 100 years or older. In what way are your thoughts on carbs different.
Gale, my thoughts are that there is no reason why I need to go below 30% carbs. My normal is 50%+ and based on the ketone count in some blood tests I obtained during weight loss, I know how to put my body in ketosis at that level. I don't think my body handles fat as well as it handles carbs but I do love fats and believe they are important to good health (in combination with the right calorie level for optimum weight).0 -
Here's a study that might meet the OP's spec except it went the wrong way - they reduced fat content in the diet stepwise while maintaining calorie levels and exchanging fat for carbs. After a controlled spell they went onto ad-lib low fat (15% F) from the controlled feeding, and lost weight. http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/71/6/1439.full.pdf
Triglycerides went up 35% with reducing fat, and HDL cholesterol fell 15%. LDL cholesterol fell 6% when fat went from 35 to 15%. CVD risk factors got worse by reducing the fat content and replacing with carbohydrate.
I guess the prevailing lipophobia makes it difficult to run a similar increasing fat trial.1 -
Here's a study that might meet the OP's spec except it went the wrong way - they reduced fat content in the diet stepwise while maintaining calorie levels and exchanging fat for carbs. After a controlled spell they went onto ad-lib low fat (15% F) from the controlled feeding, and lost weight. http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/71/6/1439.full.pdf
Triglycerides went up 35% with reducing fat, and HDL cholesterol fell 15%. LDL cholesterol fell 6% when fat went from 35 to 15%. CVD risk factors got worse by reducing the fat content and replacing with carbohydrate.
I guess the prevailing lipophobia makes it difficult to run a similar increasing fat trial.
Good researching. This one has some very good links in the References section that when traced can provide a wealth of information.0 -
20yearsyounger wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »20yearsyounger wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »ReaderGirl3 wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »20yearsyounger wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »JanetYellen wrote: »If you stay within the same daily calories?
Please provide links.
I want exact info that shows daily caloric info and changes in cholesterol numbers.
Not just sites stating that if you replace the SAD junk food diet with this, well,, of coarse.
Info on diets like the mediterranean, or vegetarian diet vs high fat diet would be nice.
Which is better for cholesterol?
@JanetYellen a year into eating 5% carbs, 15% protein and 80% fat both my Total Cholesterol and HDL numbers are higher than pre LCHF.
journal-advocate.com/ci_20054451
HDL/Total Cholesterol ideal ratio is 0.24 or greater. Mine was 0.17 pre LCHF and 0.23 after 1 year LCHF.
Triglycerides/HDL ideal ratio is 2 or less. Mine was 3.02 pre LCHF and 0.72 after one year LCHF.
As you can after 1 year LCHF I moved from high risk of CVD to a very safe to very low CVD risk. It also lowered my risks of premature death across the board from July 2014 to the Nov 2015 lipid panel test.
This n=1 results is all I am interested in at a personal level.
Gale, just a quick question. What was your total cholestrol level for your final readings. I know you are using mostly ratios and therefore a higher HDL makes the numbers look better without any other changes. Not questioning if it worked for you or not. I am just curious as to how it fits in with the guidelines represented on the lab results (given that you said it was higher)
@20yearsyounger the numbers are at the office but I think as of Nov 2015 lipid test Total Cholesterol was down to 310 from 404 July 2015. July 2014 pre LCHF I think the reading was 213. I use the two ratios above to judge my health since we now know no study has shown cholesterol only levels to predict cardio vascular health risks.
Dang, that's some high cholesterol numbers (the higher ones). Great job on the improvements
I don't track macros, but just tracking calorie intake/staying at a lower bmi (lower end of healthy range), my cholesterol numbers have been pretty solid (May, 2015 total was 150/HDL:58/LDL:82/Triglycerides:49..... October, 2015 total was 167/HDL:69/LDL:97 (no triglycerides given that time.). My October numbers went up a bit, but with the improvements in HDL, I'm still pretty good. I've also been doing some reading on how lower total cholesterol numbers may actually not be best, so getting over 150 makes me feel a bit better. Now I'm curious to know what my fat intake is, maybe I'll start tracking it until I have my next blood work done (next month).
@ReaderGirl3 clearly you have good lipid panel test results.
My total cholesterol goal is in the 200-250 range being an older guy (65) planning to live to be 110. From research I have read for old guys like me as long as we keep our total cholesterol levels as high as 200 we have no increase in risk or premature death, dementia, heart, etc. I hope my next round of testing may show me back down to my 213 pre LCHF values based on the fast drop from 404 to 310 over a period of 5 months.
Having maintained at 200 pounds for the 12 months at about 2500+ LCHF calories I am considering cutting back on the fats and work down to 175 which would give me a BMI of around 25.
Even holding an OD degree and have read medical research for years as it relates to my Ankylosing Spondylitis trying to make heads and tails out of research about cholesterol levels is confusing. At this point in time I think the Triglyceride/HDL ratio is the one health risk indicator that I trust and that it should be <2 (currently I am at 0.72) and keeping my Total Cholesterol at 200 - 250 are my only lipid goals. My goal to live to be 110 includes doing it walking and talking the entire way.
It makes me glad to seeing young people learning how to eat for health at a young age so you all do not wake up at the age of 63 realizing you have wrecked your health the way I did on yo yo dieting for 40 years.
While I know what is currently working for me I have no way to know how what others should eat. I do encourage younger people to read and select a Way Of Eating that sounds interesting and try it in 90 day steps until one can rule it in or out as working for them. If it is not then modify or replace that WOE with another one that sounds interesting.
Preventing a premature death from eating the wrong way is very doable when one is young. Reversing damage from eating in a way that was wrong for one's body is not as doable but cutting out most of my serious pain, resolving my 40 years of IBS, improving health markers while having less fat and more muscles by diet and walking a 1/4 mile daily indicates I need to keep working to reverse my damaged health.
Gale, your plan sounds like a good one. Any real reason you chose to cut the fats versus cutting other areas in order to reduce the overall calories? I have a special interest in metabolic syndrome related research etc (even if it is n=1) and though we may have some differences with regard to your thoughts on carbs, what you are doing is still interesting.
@20yearsyounger I want to stay in nutritional ketosis for its potential to reverse some health damage and protect from cancer, heart and dementia based on research I am learning about almost daily.
With a macro of 5% carb, 15% protein and 80% fat the only place I am willing to cut is the fat part of my macro.
My thoughts on carbs are they typically are an awesome source of a healthy way of eating provided us by nature and they make up a large part of diets of people who live to be 100 years or older. In what way are your thoughts on carbs different.
Gale, my thoughts are that there is no reason why I need to go below 30% carbs. My normal is 50%+ and based on the ketone count in some blood tests I obtained during weight loss, I know how to put my body in ketosis at that level. I don't think my body handles fat as well as it handles carbs but I do love fats and believe they are important to good health (in combination with the right calorie level for optimum weight).
@20yearsyounger your case is interesting. What was the ketone level reading when you were eat 30% of your calories from carbs?
The last couple days I noticed my head feeling different but no pain and on my 1/4 mile walk my energy was on the low side. The last 2 mornings I had blown a 0.75 and 0.82 reading on my $15 breath analyzer off Ebay. My acetone levels are typically 0.30 - 0.60 so last night I tested my blood ketone level using the Precision Xtra meter. BG was 82 and ketones were at 2.9 so I ate an apple. Now just after lunch I blew a 0.02 and my blood tested 110 BG level and 2.2 ketone level. There was about 16 hours after I ate the apple.
I do not know why but I have more energy when my ketone levels are no higher than like 2.5. Today at 2.2 is much better for some reason. I shoot for a 1-2 range. It is harder more me to get knocked out of ketosis if I hang around a 1.5-2.5 range. If I get out of ketosis it concerns me about as much as getting a drop of rain on me getting out of the car in a rain storm.
I know of no reason to be in ketosis for weight loss. In my case keeping my carbs below 50 grams daily does help with my weight loss however. I do nutritional ketosis for health reasons not for the automatic weight loss I experience.
While the blow meters really tells no concrete info I find it a good YES/NO am I in ketosis tool. The blood meter is required for meaningful data. dietdoctor.com/a-new-toy-measuring-blood-ketones1 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »20yearsyounger wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »20yearsyounger wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »ReaderGirl3 wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »20yearsyounger wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »JanetYellen wrote: »If you stay within the same daily calories?
Please provide links.
I want exact info that shows daily caloric info and changes in cholesterol numbers.
Not just sites stating that if you replace the SAD junk food diet with this, well,, of coarse.
Info on diets like the mediterranean, or vegetarian diet vs high fat diet would be nice.
Which is better for cholesterol?
@JanetYellen a year into eating 5% carbs, 15% protein and 80% fat both my Total Cholesterol and HDL numbers are higher than pre LCHF.
journal-advocate.com/ci_20054451
HDL/Total Cholesterol ideal ratio is 0.24 or greater. Mine was 0.17 pre LCHF and 0.23 after 1 year LCHF.
Triglycerides/HDL ideal ratio is 2 or less. Mine was 3.02 pre LCHF and 0.72 after one year LCHF.
As you can after 1 year LCHF I moved from high risk of CVD to a very safe to very low CVD risk. It also lowered my risks of premature death across the board from July 2014 to the Nov 2015 lipid panel test.
This n=1 results is all I am interested in at a personal level.
Gale, just a quick question. What was your total cholestrol level for your final readings. I know you are using mostly ratios and therefore a higher HDL makes the numbers look better without any other changes. Not questioning if it worked for you or not. I am just curious as to how it fits in with the guidelines represented on the lab results (given that you said it was higher)
@20yearsyounger the numbers are at the office but I think as of Nov 2015 lipid test Total Cholesterol was down to 310 from 404 July 2015. July 2014 pre LCHF I think the reading was 213. I use the two ratios above to judge my health since we now know no study has shown cholesterol only levels to predict cardio vascular health risks.
Dang, that's some high cholesterol numbers (the higher ones). Great job on the improvements
I don't track macros, but just tracking calorie intake/staying at a lower bmi (lower end of healthy range), my cholesterol numbers have been pretty solid (May, 2015 total was 150/HDL:58/LDL:82/Triglycerides:49..... October, 2015 total was 167/HDL:69/LDL:97 (no triglycerides given that time.). My October numbers went up a bit, but with the improvements in HDL, I'm still pretty good. I've also been doing some reading on how lower total cholesterol numbers may actually not be best, so getting over 150 makes me feel a bit better. Now I'm curious to know what my fat intake is, maybe I'll start tracking it until I have my next blood work done (next month).
@ReaderGirl3 clearly you have good lipid panel test results.
My total cholesterol goal is in the 200-250 range being an older guy (65) planning to live to be 110. From research I have read for old guys like me as long as we keep our total cholesterol levels as high as 200 we have no increase in risk or premature death, dementia, heart, etc. I hope my next round of testing may show me back down to my 213 pre LCHF values based on the fast drop from 404 to 310 over a period of 5 months.
Having maintained at 200 pounds for the 12 months at about 2500+ LCHF calories I am considering cutting back on the fats and work down to 175 which would give me a BMI of around 25.
Even holding an OD degree and have read medical research for years as it relates to my Ankylosing Spondylitis trying to make heads and tails out of research about cholesterol levels is confusing. At this point in time I think the Triglyceride/HDL ratio is the one health risk indicator that I trust and that it should be <2 (currently I am at 0.72) and keeping my Total Cholesterol at 200 - 250 are my only lipid goals. My goal to live to be 110 includes doing it walking and talking the entire way.
It makes me glad to seeing young people learning how to eat for health at a young age so you all do not wake up at the age of 63 realizing you have wrecked your health the way I did on yo yo dieting for 40 years.
While I know what is currently working for me I have no way to know how what others should eat. I do encourage younger people to read and select a Way Of Eating that sounds interesting and try it in 90 day steps until one can rule it in or out as working for them. If it is not then modify or replace that WOE with another one that sounds interesting.
Preventing a premature death from eating the wrong way is very doable when one is young. Reversing damage from eating in a way that was wrong for one's body is not as doable but cutting out most of my serious pain, resolving my 40 years of IBS, improving health markers while having less fat and more muscles by diet and walking a 1/4 mile daily indicates I need to keep working to reverse my damaged health.
Gale, your plan sounds like a good one. Any real reason you chose to cut the fats versus cutting other areas in order to reduce the overall calories? I have a special interest in metabolic syndrome related research etc (even if it is n=1) and though we may have some differences with regard to your thoughts on carbs, what you are doing is still interesting.
@20yearsyounger I want to stay in nutritional ketosis for its potential to reverse some health damage and protect from cancer, heart and dementia based on research I am learning about almost daily.
With a macro of 5% carb, 15% protein and 80% fat the only place I am willing to cut is the fat part of my macro.
My thoughts on carbs are they typically are an awesome source of a healthy way of eating provided us by nature and they make up a large part of diets of people who live to be 100 years or older. In what way are your thoughts on carbs different.
Gale, my thoughts are that there is no reason why I need to go below 30% carbs. My normal is 50%+ and based on the ketone count in some blood tests I obtained during weight loss, I know how to put my body in ketosis at that level. I don't think my body handles fat as well as it handles carbs but I do love fats and believe they are important to good health (in combination with the right calorie level for optimum weight).
@20yearsyounger your case is interesting. What was the ketone level reading when you were eat 30% of your calories from carbs?
The last couple days I noticed my head feeling different but no pain and on my 1/4 mile walk my energy was on the low side. The last 2 mornings I had blown a 0.75 and 0.82 reading on my $15 breath analyzer off Ebay. My acetone levels are typically 0.30 - 0.60 so last night I tested my blood ketone level using the Precision Xtra meter. BG was 82 and ketones were at 2.9 so I ate an apple. Now just after lunch I blew a 0.02 and my blood tested 110 BG level and 2.2 ketone level. There was about 16 hours after I ate the apple.
I do not know why but I have more energy when my ketone levels are no higher than like 2.5. Today at 2.2 is much better for some reason. I shoot for a 1-2 range. It is harder more me to get knocked out of ketosis if I hang around a 1.5-2.5 range. If I get out of ketosis it concerns me about as much as getting a drop of rain on me getting out of the car in a rain storm.
I know of no reason to be in ketosis for weight loss. In my case keeping my carbs below 50 grams daily does help with my weight loss however. I do nutritional ketosis for health reasons not for the automatic weight loss I experience.
While the blow meters really tells no concrete info I find it a good YES/NO am I in ketosis tool. The blood meter is required for meaningful data. dietdoctor.com/a-new-toy-measuring-blood-ketones
Sorry, I had to look for the records. So I didn't get an actual number like you did. It's just bolded on the report and has a 1+ next to it (whereas everything else in negative or in range).
I went back to my diary and the day before I did 54% Carbs, 19% protein, 27% fats before my fast (that's around my norm)
Total Cholesterol - 180
HDL - 87
Triglycerides - 52
LDL - 83
Chol/HDLC Ratio - 2.1
Glucose - 78
Protein - 7.4 (range is 6.1-8.1)
Creatinine 1.09 (range is .6 - `1.35)
2 -
One more thing, just based on the definition of ketosis, I would expect most people to go into it for weight loss purposes (if you have a large deficit). My body fat was way higher than it should have been in the first place.0
-
20yearsyounger wrote: »One more thing, just based on the definition of ketosis, I would expect most people to go into it for weight loss purposes (if you have a large deficit). My body fat was way higher than it should have been in the first place.
Those are some awesome ratios. Would you say your source of carbs are mainly processed or not.
Ketosis I think based on my personal experience (n=1) is popular for some because it killed all of my cravings that was driving me to abuse processed carbs that just about took me out of the game of life. As I noted elsewhere I added an apple last night when I learned my ketone level was 2.9 and today it was back down to 2.2 and I feel better.
On a hunch I cut out sugar and all forms of all grains to see if it would manage my pain (and it did) so I did not have to start on Enbrel injections. I had already gone hog wild on coconut oil for the MCT's so I was eating keto accidentally before I found MFP. I am learning about Keto daily on MFP.0
Categories
- All Categories
- 1.4M Health, Wellness and Goals
- 393K Introduce Yourself
- 43.7K Getting Started
- 260.1K Health and Weight Loss
- 175.8K Food and Nutrition
- 47.4K Recipes
- 232.5K Fitness and Exercise
- 415 Sleep, Mindfulness and Overall Wellness
- 6.5K Goal: Maintaining Weight
- 8.5K Goal: Gaining Weight and Body Building
- 152.9K Motivation and Support
- 8K Challenges
- 1.3K Debate Club
- 96.3K Chit-Chat
- 2.5K Fun and Games
- 3.6K MyFitnessPal Information
- 23 News and Announcements
- 1.1K Feature Suggestions and Ideas
- 2.5K MyFitnessPal Tech Support Questions