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Fat Acceptance Movement
Replies
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GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »JstTheWayIam wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »
Yes actually, that is what the "fat acceptance" movement is, its people who argue that being obese is healthy and there is nothing to be concerned by and that we should as a society "accept" being fat as normal and healthy.
That's not what I see. I see people looking for acceptance in society. Someone shouldn't be looked down upon because of there weight.
Who is anyone to judge.
Okay well just because you personally haven't encountered people from the fat acceptance movement doesn't mean they don't exist and as far as I can tell the subject of this thread is "Fat acceptance movement".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fat_acceptance_movement
This is a movement who glorifies being fat to the point of shaming people for trying to lose weight if they are obese. Understand that that is what we are talking about when we talk about the fat acceptance movement. You seem to be confusing them with people who just stand against verbally abusing fat people which is completely legitimate.
I get it. This is a movement so ridiculous your brain rebels at the very idea that it would even exist. The fat acceptance movement is like the other side of the coin to the pro-Ana groups who glorify being anorexicly thin.
If I speak out against the pro-Ana movement it doesn't mean that I am a skinny-shamer. If I speak out against the fat acceptance movement that doesn't make me a fat-shamer.
Not every person in the FAM has the same thoughts (just like not every feminist or BLM advocate agrees with every other person in the movement). I've met people who identify as FAM who don't "glorify" it, they're just arguing for decent treatment for everyone, including those who are obese. They're focused on things like access to appropriate health care or employment discrimination, things like that. And they're fine with people losing weight if that is what they want to do. Others are like you describe. It's a varied group of people.
Most of the people I've seen cited who get into pushing things like fat studies into academia at best promote a "weight neutral" approach to everything.
I'm not aware of any of the thought leaders in the movement who are okay with dieting. The mantra that they use is that dieting leads to failure leads to weight regain (and then some) and is dangerous and not to be undertaken. Hence the "weight neutral" stance.
I don't know how the movement is defined and mostly prefer to ignore it, but there are a lot of anti diet people, who talk about dieting and pressure to fit a particular societal norm resulting, for some, in more weight gain and messed up views about food. I am thinking of people like Isabel Foxen Duke, Laura Fraser (wrote Losing It, which I enjoyed and really helped me get into a better frame of mind), and even some of the people who focus on fitness and weights like Jen Sinkler. Some of those (maybe Duke and Fraser, some others) I'd consider closer to the movement than others, although I'd say body acceptance and anti dieting vs. "fat acceptance." But the bigger point is that none of them are anti weight loss or would say that it can't be done -- Duke and Fraser have talked about normalizing their relationship with food and getting out of the dieting cycle and focusing on other things as being responsible for being able to lose weight. In the same camp I'd put the intuitive eating people, as their the idea is that focusing on dieting and messed up ideas of food are what makes putting on weight so common, and that getting past that, even to the point of overeating for a while to be able to learn to trust the body and not be in starve/binge cycles is important (and self-hatred plays into that).
That's not my approach so much -- I don't have a history with dieting much and am skeptical of intuitive eating in general as I don't think it squares with human evolution as well as people want to think, but oh well.
Bigger point is that I'd include in the discussion people who are anti diet, who focus on body positivity and self acceptance, so on, even if they don't think being fat is idea or the longterm goal. This is because I think they'd also say that stigmatizing fat isn't really the answer.
But of course I agree that some go too far, and the HAES notion that fat is healthy or can't and shouldn't be changed is dumb (if a reasonably common kind of extreme for a "movement"). There are similarly wings of feminism that irritate me (even though I consider myself a feminist), and ideas that I think we unhealthy or bad within the various movements surrounding sexual orientation.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I think it would be easier to call out the ideas that we think are bad (and I think most of us in this discussion largely agree on what's bad) simply because I get the sense that some here are interpreting those of us saying "there may be some good things in the acceptance idea" or "I don't get what you would mean in telling someone else that 'fat is not okay'" (going back to earlier in the thread for that one) to mean that we consider calling obesity a societal problem to be fat shaming or that doctors shouldn't tell patients that overweight is a health concern, and I don't think that's the case.
I do think -- and maybe the social environment I know is non representative, as I know it's certainly not politically representative of the country as a whole, heh -- that the idea that people don't know obesity is a health risk or that fatness is being seen as desirable, or even not undesirable is completely unlike the world I see and IMO not a serious concern. Bigger issue is that people still get fat, despite this, so yes, that's a problem that I'd like to find a way to help with it, because it is generally bad for individuals and society.0 -
midwesterner85 wrote: »I only care because being at an unhealthy weight (high or low) adds to the rising health insurance / medical costs that everyone -including people trying to be reasonably fit- usually pays for.
Starting a "movement" (ironic word choice...) to make it even more acceptable to be at an unhealthy weight is just pushing "Politically Correct" to the extreme.
Japan taxes and educates people who are at unhealthy weight levels.
Every year everyone has blood work, measurements and the like checked and it is reported to the government.
Those taxes help balance the drain on the public health insurance system in Japan.
Guess what? Japan has around a 5% obesity rate, and that includes sumo wrestlers.
People in Japan are taught how to make healthy lifestyle choices and workplaces often help by making sure cafeteria menus are healthy or having mandatory exercise classes at the beginning of work shifts.
This applies to foreigners (がいじん）living in Japan as well, I think.
I they should do something like that here in the States, in my opinion.
How exactly do they make "healthy" cafeteria menus?
Also, look at many European school meal- they are FAR healthier then the crap that is served in US schools. In high school (2004) we had a French exchange student stay for a year and she was appalled at the school lunches.
School lunches vary quite a bit. We had some talk about them in some other thread, and it seems to me they are a lot better on average than when I was a kid (when people were thinner) and the ones in my school district seem fine. I really don't think they are why people are overweight. Are there places where they are horrible? I am sure -- it's largely local, after all.0 -
Aaron_K123 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »JstTheWayIam wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »
Yes actually, that is what the "fat acceptance" movement is, its people who argue that being obese is healthy and there is nothing to be concerned by and that we should as a society "accept" being fat as normal and healthy.
That's not what I see. I see people looking for acceptance in society. Someone shouldn't be looked down upon because of there weight.
Who is anyone to judge.
Okay well just because you personally haven't encountered people from the fat acceptance movement doesn't mean they don't exist and as far as I can tell the subject of this thread is "Fat acceptance movement".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fat_acceptance_movement
This is a movement who glorifies being fat to the point of shaming people for trying to lose weight if they are obese. Understand that that is what we are talking about when we talk about the fat acceptance movement. You seem to be confusing them with people who just stand against verbally abusing fat people which is completely legitimate.
I get it. This is a movement so ridiculous your brain rebels at the very idea that it would even exist. The fat acceptance movement is like the other side of the coin to the pro-Ana groups who glorify being anorexicly thin.
If I speak out against the pro-Ana movement it doesn't mean that I am a skinny-shamer. If I speak out against the fat acceptance movement that doesn't make me a fat-shamer.
Not every person in the FAM has the same thoughts (just like not every feminist or BLM advocate agrees with every other person in the movement). I've met people who identify as FAM who don't "glorify" it, they're just arguing for decent treatment for everyone, including those who are obese. They're focused on things like access to appropriate health care or employment discrimination, things like that. And they're fine with people losing weight if that is what they want to do. Others are like you describe. It's a varied group of people.
Is there actually a debate about that? Is there anyone who advocates making fun of an individual for being fat? That seems like a strawman to me. People saying being fat is a health problem are being mislabeled as "fat shaming". There is a huge difference between calling someone a "fatty" to hurt their feelings and stating the FACT that being overweight causes health problems and that we as a society should employ cultural pressure on those who are obese (or those who are underweight) to come more in line with a healthy body not only for their sake but for the sake of society as a whole. That is not "shaming".
Those who are against fat-shaming seem to be against the idea of someone just being flippant and rude to an individual. Okay...yeah thats inappropriate same as it would be inappropriate to be flippant and rude about any of their physical attributes. Does anyone actually believe otherwise? That just seems like a strawman to me.
If someone has cancer I don't call them cancer-face but I would support them fighting the cancer. If, for some reason, they decide cancer is good for them and they want me to accept their cancer as being part of who they are I'm not going to do that because that is ridiculous. At that point am I cancer-shaming? Is cancer somehow part of their identity and by speaking out against cancer I am being rude to them in some way?
There are absolutely people who advocate ridiculing and shaming obese people. I don't know if you are very familiar with reddit, but they had entire groups of subreddits dedicated to that, doing things like sharing pictures of people for the purposes of mocking them, directing comments at them, etc. I have some online acquaintances who receive frequent comments mocking their weight. Like daily -- comments calling them names, saying they're disgusting, speculation about what is "wrong" with their partners to want to be with them, tweeting pictures of them for the purposes of ridicule, etc.
I'm glad it seems like a strawman to you because it means that you aren't seeing this type of behavior, but it does happen. It happens a lot to some higher profile obese women (not to say it doesn't happen to men too, it's just the people I know happen to be women). The courage it takes to be a higher profile obese/overweight woman is incredible because you have to be ready for people who don't know you to constantly bring up your weight if you are expressing a political/cultural opinion they don't like.
It happens even if you aren't overweight -- in political/cultural discussions, I've had men making dismissive and ridiculing comments about me based on the assumption that I was overweight (things like "You're probably a fat ugly feminist," "She's probably so fat nobody would want her," etc). These are in conversations that have nothing to do with weight and nobody is asking anyone to "accept" anything about fatness.
I am not saying that what I face as a not-fat person who gets accused of being fat as a way to "discredit" my opinion is equivalent to what these women go through, but the truth is that in some sections of the internet, "fat shaming" is a way to try to silence political/cultural speech by women (and possibly some men, I don't know, don't have enough experience with this) by just making it so that you have to wade through so many comments on your weight and appearance that you will decide it just isn't worth it.
If someone expresses an opinion and they're fat, you aren't "accepting" their fatness if you just discuss the opinion and don't bring up their weight. Their weight isn't relevant to the discussion. If we're talking about minimum wage or the Matrix movies, weight isn't relevant and you don't have to support or not support their weight.
I realize this isn't exactly what you are referring to, but "fat shaming" is real. I'm glad it isn't something you support, I'm glad you don't see it because it is an incredibly sad thing to see.6 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »JstTheWayIam wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »
Yes actually, that is what the "fat acceptance" movement is, its people who argue that being obese is healthy and there is nothing to be concerned by and that we should as a society "accept" being fat as normal and healthy.
That's not what I see. I see people looking for acceptance in society. Someone shouldn't be looked down upon because of there weight.
Who is anyone to judge.
Okay well just because you personally haven't encountered people from the fat acceptance movement doesn't mean they don't exist and as far as I can tell the subject of this thread is "Fat acceptance movement".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fat_acceptance_movement
This is a movement who glorifies being fat to the point of shaming people for trying to lose weight if they are obese. Understand that that is what we are talking about when we talk about the fat acceptance movement. You seem to be confusing them with people who just stand against verbally abusing fat people which is completely legitimate.
I get it. This is a movement so ridiculous your brain rebels at the very idea that it would even exist. The fat acceptance movement is like the other side of the coin to the pro-Ana groups who glorify being anorexicly thin.
If I speak out against the pro-Ana movement it doesn't mean that I am a skinny-shamer. If I speak out against the fat acceptance movement that doesn't make me a fat-shamer.
Not every person in the FAM has the same thoughts (just like not every feminist or BLM advocate agrees with every other person in the movement). I've met people who identify as FAM who don't "glorify" it, they're just arguing for decent treatment for everyone, including those who are obese. They're focused on things like access to appropriate health care or employment discrimination, things like that. And they're fine with people losing weight if that is what they want to do. Others are like you describe. It's a varied group of people.
Most of the people I've seen cited who get into pushing things like fat studies into academia at best promote a "weight neutral" approach to everything.
I'm not aware of any of the thought leaders in the movement who are okay with dieting. The mantra that they use is that dieting leads to failure leads to weight regain (and then some) and is dangerous and not to be undertaken. Hence the "weight neutral" stance.
I do know some people who aren't okay with dieting, I know some people who are. I don't really follow the "thought leaders" so I accept that you're likely right.0 -
janejellyroll wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »JstTheWayIam wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »
Yes actually, that is what the "fat acceptance" movement is, its people who argue that being obese is healthy and there is nothing to be concerned by and that we should as a society "accept" being fat as normal and healthy.
That's not what I see. I see people looking for acceptance in society. Someone shouldn't be looked down upon because of there weight.
Who is anyone to judge.
Okay well just because you personally haven't encountered people from the fat acceptance movement doesn't mean they don't exist and as far as I can tell the subject of this thread is "Fat acceptance movement".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fat_acceptance_movement
This is a movement who glorifies being fat to the point of shaming people for trying to lose weight if they are obese. Understand that that is what we are talking about when we talk about the fat acceptance movement. You seem to be confusing them with people who just stand against verbally abusing fat people which is completely legitimate.
I get it. This is a movement so ridiculous your brain rebels at the very idea that it would even exist. The fat acceptance movement is like the other side of the coin to the pro-Ana groups who glorify being anorexicly thin.
If I speak out against the pro-Ana movement it doesn't mean that I am a skinny-shamer. If I speak out against the fat acceptance movement that doesn't make me a fat-shamer.
Not every person in the FAM has the same thoughts (just like not every feminist or BLM advocate agrees with every other person in the movement). I've met people who identify as FAM who don't "glorify" it, they're just arguing for decent treatment for everyone, including those who are obese. They're focused on things like access to appropriate health care or employment discrimination, things like that. And they're fine with people losing weight if that is what they want to do. Others are like you describe. It's a varied group of people.
Is there actually a debate about that? Is there anyone who advocates making fun of an individual for being fat? That seems like a strawman to me. People saying being fat is a health problem are being mislabeled as "fat shaming". There is a huge difference between calling someone a "fatty" to hurt their feelings and stating the FACT that being overweight causes health problems and that we as a society should employ cultural pressure on those who are obese (or those who are underweight) to come more in line with a healthy body not only for their sake but for the sake of society as a whole. That is not "shaming".
Those who are against fat-shaming seem to be against the idea of someone just being flippant and rude to an individual. Okay...yeah thats inappropriate same as it would be inappropriate to be flippant and rude about any of their physical attributes. Does anyone actually believe otherwise? That just seems like a strawman to me.
If someone has cancer I don't call them cancer-face but I would support them fighting the cancer. If, for some reason, they decide cancer is good for them and they want me to accept their cancer as being part of who they are I'm not going to do that because that is ridiculous. At that point am I cancer-shaming? Is cancer somehow part of their identity and by speaking out against cancer I am being rude to them in some way?
There are absolutely people who advocate ridiculing and shaming obese people. I don't know if you are very familiar with reddit, but they had entire groups of subreddits dedicated to that, doing things like sharing pictures of people for the purposes of mocking them, directing comments at them, etc. I have some online acquaintances who receive frequent comments mocking their weight. Like daily -- comments calling them names, saying they're disgusting, speculation about what is "wrong" with their partners to want to be with them, tweeting pictures of them for the purposes of ridicule, etc.
I'm glad it seems like a strawman to you because it means that you aren't seeing this type of behavior, but it does happen. It happens a lot to some higher profile obese women (not to say it doesn't happen to men too, it's just the people I know happen to be women). The courage it takes to be a higher profile obese/overweight woman is incredible because you have to be ready for people who don't know you to constantly bring up your weight if you are expressing a political/cultural opinion they don't like.
It happens even if you aren't overweight -- in political/cultural discussions, I've had men making dismissive and ridiculing comments about me based on the assumption that I was overweight (things like "You're probably a fat ugly feminist," "She's probably so fat nobody would want her," etc). These are in conversations that have nothing to do with weight and nobody is asking anyone to "accept" anything about fatness.
I am not saying that what I face as a not-fat person who gets accused of being fat as a way to "discredit" my opinion is equivalent to what these women go through, but the truth is that in some sections of the internet, "fat shaming" is a way to try to silence political/cultural speech by women (and possibly some men, I don't know, don't have enough experience with this) by just making it so that you have to wade through so many comments on your weight and appearance that you will decide it just isn't worth it.
If someone expresses an opinion and they're fat, you aren't "accepting" their fatness if you just discuss the opinion and don't bring up their weight. Their weight isn't relevant to the discussion. If we're talking about minimum wage or the Matrix movies, weight isn't relevant and you don't have to support or not support their weight.
I realize this isn't exactly what you are referring to, but "fat shaming" is real. I'm glad it isn't something you support, I'm glad you don't see it because it is an incredibly sad thing to see.
I'll definitely be the first to admit that Reddit is a toilet that's been long in need of a good bleaching. The only moment I ever had where I thought that freedom of speech might need a limit or two, was on Reddit.
It made me abandon the site altogether, as I quickly realized that even my core Libertarian values were being poisoned by that cesspool.3 -
Shaming as a motivational tool is often one of the least effective.
THIS. It's too bad, because shame is one of the most common tools used by loved ones, bosses, teachers, coaches, etc. to attempt to motivate people, and it tends to either discourage them or, best case scenario, it creates unsustainable success.1 -
I have thought about this many times. Just the other day I watched a short clip on Buzzfeed - it was someone simply writing a note to Santa. Do you know what people commented? They commented about how fat the persons arms were, and that was a majority of what was said.
Here is my take, plain and simple:
Should people make health a priority? Yes
Should you teach your family how to live healthy, active lives? Yes
Does that mean you have the right to ridicule, comment, or degrade someone based on their size (big or small)? Absolutely not!
Is a strangers weight or jean size any of your business? NO - let's be honest, most of the people commenting on someone's weight are not doing so to try and help improve their health. Close family, sure...that absolutely happens, but when a comedian posts a video making fun of anyone overweight, that is fat shaming.
I'm not advocating obesity or being unhealthy (honestly I don't think anyone is); I am working on improving my health every day. I do, however, participate in the body positive movement, embracing everyone in every size. You should be able to feel great no matter what your size. Size 2-22 and up, I don't care. No one should be made to feel inferior based on physical appearance.
That is what I feel - good, bad, whatever.3 -
Gallowmere1984 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »JstTheWayIam wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »
Yes actually, that is what the "fat acceptance" movement is, its people who argue that being obese is healthy and there is nothing to be concerned by and that we should as a society "accept" being fat as normal and healthy.
That's not what I see. I see people looking for acceptance in society. Someone shouldn't be looked down upon because of there weight.
Who is anyone to judge.
Okay well just because you personally haven't encountered people from the fat acceptance movement doesn't mean they don't exist and as far as I can tell the subject of this thread is "Fat acceptance movement".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fat_acceptance_movement
This is a movement who glorifies being fat to the point of shaming people for trying to lose weight if they are obese. Understand that that is what we are talking about when we talk about the fat acceptance movement. You seem to be confusing them with people who just stand against verbally abusing fat people which is completely legitimate.
I get it. This is a movement so ridiculous your brain rebels at the very idea that it would even exist. The fat acceptance movement is like the other side of the coin to the pro-Ana groups who glorify being anorexicly thin.
If I speak out against the pro-Ana movement it doesn't mean that I am a skinny-shamer. If I speak out against the fat acceptance movement that doesn't make me a fat-shamer.
Not every person in the FAM has the same thoughts (just like not every feminist or BLM advocate agrees with every other person in the movement). I've met people who identify as FAM who don't "glorify" it, they're just arguing for decent treatment for everyone, including those who are obese. They're focused on things like access to appropriate health care or employment discrimination, things like that. And they're fine with people losing weight if that is what they want to do. Others are like you describe. It's a varied group of people.
Is there actually a debate about that? Is there anyone who advocates making fun of an individual for being fat? That seems like a strawman to me. People saying being fat is a health problem are being mislabeled as "fat shaming". There is a huge difference between calling someone a "fatty" to hurt their feelings and stating the FACT that being overweight causes health problems and that we as a society should employ cultural pressure on those who are obese (or those who are underweight) to come more in line with a healthy body not only for their sake but for the sake of society as a whole. That is not "shaming".
Those who are against fat-shaming seem to be against the idea of someone just being flippant and rude to an individual. Okay...yeah thats inappropriate same as it would be inappropriate to be flippant and rude about any of their physical attributes. Does anyone actually believe otherwise? That just seems like a strawman to me.
If someone has cancer I don't call them cancer-face but I would support them fighting the cancer. If, for some reason, they decide cancer is good for them and they want me to accept their cancer as being part of who they are I'm not going to do that because that is ridiculous. At that point am I cancer-shaming? Is cancer somehow part of their identity and by speaking out against cancer I am being rude to them in some way?
There are absolutely people who advocate ridiculing and shaming obese people. I don't know if you are very familiar with reddit, but they had entire groups of subreddits dedicated to that, doing things like sharing pictures of people for the purposes of mocking them, directing comments at them, etc. I have some online acquaintances who receive frequent comments mocking their weight. Like daily -- comments calling them names, saying they're disgusting, speculation about what is "wrong" with their partners to want to be with them, tweeting pictures of them for the purposes of ridicule, etc.
I'm glad it seems like a strawman to you because it means that you aren't seeing this type of behavior, but it does happen. It happens a lot to some higher profile obese women (not to say it doesn't happen to men too, it's just the people I know happen to be women). The courage it takes to be a higher profile obese/overweight woman is incredible because you have to be ready for people who don't know you to constantly bring up your weight if you are expressing a political/cultural opinion they don't like.
It happens even if you aren't overweight -- in political/cultural discussions, I've had men making dismissive and ridiculing comments about me based on the assumption that I was overweight (things like "You're probably a fat ugly feminist," "She's probably so fat nobody would want her," etc). These are in conversations that have nothing to do with weight and nobody is asking anyone to "accept" anything about fatness.
I am not saying that what I face as a not-fat person who gets accused of being fat as a way to "discredit" my opinion is equivalent to what these women go through, but the truth is that in some sections of the internet, "fat shaming" is a way to try to silence political/cultural speech by women (and possibly some men, I don't know, don't have enough experience with this) by just making it so that you have to wade through so many comments on your weight and appearance that you will decide it just isn't worth it.
If someone expresses an opinion and they're fat, you aren't "accepting" their fatness if you just discuss the opinion and don't bring up their weight. Their weight isn't relevant to the discussion. If we're talking about minimum wage or the Matrix movies, weight isn't relevant and you don't have to support or not support their weight.
I realize this isn't exactly what you are referring to, but "fat shaming" is real. I'm glad it isn't something you support, I'm glad you don't see it because it is an incredibly sad thing to see.
I'll definitely be the first to admit that Reddit is a toilet that's been long in need of a good bleaching. The only moment I ever had where I thought that freedom of speech might need a limit or two, was on Reddit.
It made me abandon the site altogether, as I quickly realized that even my core Libertarian values were being poisoned by that cesspool.
Yeah, I don't go there anymore myself.
There are some really great people there and also some of the worst people. I have no problems with free speech, but there are people there who aren't just content to say what they want to say -- they want to bully and silence others they disagree with. I would have no issue with people getting together to discuss what they don't like about any group (I mean, I have *moral* objections to bigotry, but I don't believe bigoted discussion should be restricted), but it got impossible to have a conversation there that wasn't derailed or turned toxic because people were just roving around looking for opportunities to spread their grossness.0 -
I think there are two competing ideas going on.
1. Fat shaming is wrong and cruel no one can know where another person is in their life or how hard they're working to be the person they want to be.
2. Fat acceptance is dangerous. You get these "statistics" which say humans CAN be healthy at varying levels of being overweight, but the simple fact is the vast majority are not. If people are not eating healthy foods and exercising as part of their routines, they're not going to be healthy. The emphasis of such movements should always be for people to seek help first, be it a food logging app or a commitment with buddies to do the gym.
3. Everyone is well within their own right to "pick their own poison," but in doing so they should be aware that that is what they're doing.
So many obese people use food like a literal drug -- it's self-medicating in a lot of ways for a lot of people. They should be encouraged to get help, not some illogical "acceptance."
You can't believe #2 and #1 concurrently.
Because while you are spouting politically correct narratives, you are mentally judging fat people.
I actually had a woman who recently lost weight I know tell me that she was upset going to the nail salon and seeing fat women get pedicures and have their hair done. She thought their time should be spent working on their weight. While not even knowing if they might be rewarding themselves for losing weight.
Are fat women supposed to look and feel like dirt, until they prove themselves worthy of taking care of themselves? No.
I am so OVER society telling fat people they should hate themselves or their bodies.
And if they DON'T hate themselves, they are in denial somehow.
Last time I checked, optimism does more to motivate people to change than self-loathing.
Shows like the Biggest Loser where they make people cry and feel like sub-humans because they are fat is nothing short of psychological and physical abuse.
Here's a BIG dirty secret the diet industry doesn't want you to know: A LOT of very skinny, skinny people are horribly miserable and self-loathing.
Because they are starving, and have body dismorphia, where they are not ever thin enough.
Because I was MISERABLE at size 4, and happy as peaches on a tree on a warm day at size 16. At size 4, I looked at my bones poking out everywhere and wondered why that four pack wasn't a six pack yet.
At size 16, I was rocking my career and having the time of my life. And yes, men tripping over themselves to talk to me.
The diet industry wants you to think the reverse is true.
Now that I look and feel good, and treat myself like I am worthy, regardless of society's judgements, I am the fittest and strongest I've been in my life, even though I'm not as skinny as I was before. I'm working on it, even if your eyeballs and mental calculations, i.e., judgements don't agree.
So, fat men and women, ask for forgiveness from God for sloth or greed or whatever it was, and be free of shame, hold your head up high. You are a new creation in Christ and God loves you, so the rest of the people who don't can go lump it. Spend some money on successive makeovers, let the haters hate and you love yourself. Then, the weight loss is so....much....easier.
This formerly fat women benched pressed 170lbs last night. Hope that motivates some of you.
Much love! Be blessed!
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There is very real discrimination against people, particularly women, based on weight.
"Overweight women earn smaller paychecks"
Short men and overweight women earn less"
"Extra pounds prove costly to women in the workplace"
Obesity bias common among medical students
Then there was this incidentProfessor tweets about fat grad school applicants
Dear obese PhD applicants: if you didn’t have the willpower to stop eating carbs, you won’t have the willpower to do a dissertation #truth.
~Dr. Jeffery Miller, University of New Mexico "
That isn't limited to one person.
Weight a factor in graduate school admissions
P. S. I want a cookie for writing all of that on my phone.7 -
There is very real discrimination against people, particularly women, based on weight.
"Overweight women earn smaller paychecks"
Short men and overweight women earn less"
"Extra pounds prove costly to women in the workplace"
Obesity bias common among medical students
Then there was this incidentProfessor tweets about fat grad school applicants
Dear obese PhD applicants: if you didn’t have the willpower to stop eating carbs, you won’t have the willpower to do a dissertation #truth.
~Dr. Jeffery Miller, University of New Mexico "
That isn't limited to one person.
Weight a factor in graduate school admissions
P. S. I want a cookie for writing all of that on my phone.
Cookie for you!
You deserve it for typing all of that with no wonky auto correct
There is always differing treatment based on appearance and perception. Weight, facial feature symmetry, unusual features such as prominent birthmarks, height, clothing, makeup, hairstyle, apparent age, you name it and it affects someone's first impression of you.
I would not expect that first impression (good or bad) to be overturned in a single interview unless the professor found the candidate to be a standout in some way.
It would be nice if we could all be judged based on merit - whatever qualities are applicable to the situation - but barring situations where blind tests are appropriate that won't happen.1 -
There is very real discrimination against people, particularly women, based on weight.
"Overweight women earn smaller paychecks"
Short men and overweight women earn less"
"Extra pounds prove costly to women in the workplace"
Obesity bias common among medical students
Then there was this incidentProfessor tweets about fat grad school applicants
Dear obese PhD applicants: if you didn’t have the willpower to stop eating carbs, you won’t have the willpower to do a dissertation #truth.
~Dr. Jeffery Miller, University of New Mexico "
That isn't limited to one person.
Weight a factor in graduate school admissions
P. S. I want a cookie for writing all of that on my phone.
I am opposed to any discrimination based on arbitrary factors. In occupations where physical fitness is part of the job this isn't bias, this is a job qualification.
A colleague of mine is an ER physician in a teaching hospital and he PTs his staff daily. His rationale is that the elevator breaks down, power goes out, and things go wrong. As a physician you need to be at the top of your game and may have to climb 6 flights of stairs before treating a patient. In a mass casualty situation you may have to go extended hours without rest and you cannot properly treat a patient and be overweight. As a physician you need to lead by example. How could you tell a person that they need to lose weight when you are overweight?
PS - Here's your cookie. Adjust your macros accordingly.6 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »JstTheWayIam wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »
Yes actually, that is what the "fat acceptance" movement is, its people who argue that being obese is healthy and there is nothing to be concerned by and that we should as a society "accept" being fat as normal and healthy.
That's not what I see. I see people looking for acceptance in society. Someone shouldn't be looked down upon because of there weight.
Who is anyone to judge.
Okay well just because you personally haven't encountered people from the fat acceptance movement doesn't mean they don't exist and as far as I can tell the subject of this thread is "Fat acceptance movement".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fat_acceptance_movement
This is a movement who glorifies being fat to the point of shaming people for trying to lose weight if they are obese. Understand that that is what we are talking about when we talk about the fat acceptance movement. You seem to be confusing them with people who just stand against verbally abusing fat people which is completely legitimate.
I get it. This is a movement so ridiculous your brain rebels at the very idea that it would even exist. The fat acceptance movement is like the other side of the coin to the pro-Ana groups who glorify being anorexicly thin.
If I speak out against the pro-Ana movement it doesn't mean that I am a skinny-shamer. If I speak out against the fat acceptance movement that doesn't make me a fat-shamer.
Not every person in the FAM has the same thoughts (just like not every feminist or BLM advocate agrees with every other person in the movement). I've met people who identify as FAM who don't "glorify" it, they're just arguing for decent treatment for everyone, including those who are obese. They're focused on things like access to appropriate health care or employment discrimination, things like that. And they're fine with people losing weight if that is what they want to do. Others are like you describe. It's a varied group of people.
Most of the people I've seen cited who get into pushing things like fat studies into academia at best promote a "weight neutral" approach to everything.
I'm not aware of any of the thought leaders in the movement who are okay with dieting. The mantra that they use is that dieting leads to failure leads to weight regain (and then some) and is dangerous and not to be undertaken. Hence the "weight neutral" stance.
I don't know how the movement is defined and mostly prefer to ignore it, but there are a lot of anti diet people, who talk about dieting and pressure to fit a particular societal norm resulting, for some, in more weight gain and messed up views about food. I am thinking of people like Isabel Foxen Duke, Laura Fraser (wrote Losing It, which I enjoyed and really helped me get into a better frame of mind), and even some of the people who focus on fitness and weights like Jen Sinkler. Some of those (maybe Duke and Fraser, some others) I'd consider closer to the movement than others, although I'd say body acceptance and anti dieting vs. "fat acceptance." But the bigger point is that none of them are anti weight loss or would say that it can't be done -- Duke and Fraser have talked about normalizing their relationship with food and getting out of the dieting cycle and focusing on other things as being responsible for being able to lose weight. In the same camp I'd put the intuitive eating people, as their the idea is that focusing on dieting and messed up ideas of food are what makes putting on weight so common, and that getting past that, even to the point of overeating for a while to be able to learn to trust the body and not be in starve/binge cycles is important (and self-hatred plays into that).
That's not my approach so much -- I don't have a history with dieting much and am skeptical of intuitive eating in general as I don't think it squares with human evolution as well as people want to think, but oh well.
Bigger point is that I'd include in the discussion people who are anti diet, who focus on body positivity and self acceptance, so on, even if they don't think being fat is idea or the longterm goal. This is because I think they'd also say that stigmatizing fat isn't really the answer.
But of course I agree that some go too far, and the HAES notion that fat is healthy or can't and shouldn't be changed is dumb (if a reasonably common kind of extreme for a "movement"). There are similarly wings of feminism that irritate me (even though I consider myself a feminist), and ideas that I think we unhealthy or bad within the various movements surrounding sexual orientation.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I think it would be easier to call out the ideas that we think are bad (and I think most of us in this discussion largely agree on what's bad) simply because I get the sense that some here are interpreting those of us saying "there may be some good things in the acceptance idea" or "I don't get what you would mean in telling someone else that 'fat is not okay'" (going back to earlier in the thread for that one) to mean that we consider calling obesity a societal problem to be fat shaming or that doctors shouldn't tell patients that overweight is a health concern, and I don't think that's the case.
I do think -- and maybe the social environment I know is non representative, as I know it's certainly not politically representative of the country as a whole, heh -- that the idea that people don't know obesity is a health risk or that fatness is being seen as desirable, or even not undesirable is completely unlike the world I see and IMO not a serious concern. Bigger issue is that people still get fat, despite this, so yes, that's a problem that I'd like to find a way to help with it, because it is generally bad for individuals and society.
I think the two you cited aren't, as you said, quite out there enough to be fat acceptance. They look to be more body positive, intuitive eating, and anti-structured dieting. I don't necessarily disagree with any of those approaches and think they're probably the healthiest for quite a few people.
I certainly agree with the idea of feeling positive about yourself as an enabling force to forming healthy habits. They seem to support this.
The fat acceptance movement as I've seen it, however, veers off from that into at times celebrating what amounts to gluttony. That's not healthy behavior.0 -
janejellyroll wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »JstTheWayIam wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »
Yes actually, that is what the "fat acceptance" movement is, its people who argue that being obese is healthy and there is nothing to be concerned by and that we should as a society "accept" being fat as normal and healthy.
That's not what I see. I see people looking for acceptance in society. Someone shouldn't be looked down upon because of there weight.
Who is anyone to judge.
Okay well just because you personally haven't encountered people from the fat acceptance movement doesn't mean they don't exist and as far as I can tell the subject of this thread is "Fat acceptance movement".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fat_acceptance_movement
This is a movement who glorifies being fat to the point of shaming people for trying to lose weight if they are obese. Understand that that is what we are talking about when we talk about the fat acceptance movement. You seem to be confusing them with people who just stand against verbally abusing fat people which is completely legitimate.
I get it. This is a movement so ridiculous your brain rebels at the very idea that it would even exist. The fat acceptance movement is like the other side of the coin to the pro-Ana groups who glorify being anorexicly thin.
If I speak out against the pro-Ana movement it doesn't mean that I am a skinny-shamer. If I speak out against the fat acceptance movement that doesn't make me a fat-shamer.
Not every person in the FAM has the same thoughts (just like not every feminist or BLM advocate agrees with every other person in the movement). I've met people who identify as FAM who don't "glorify" it, they're just arguing for decent treatment for everyone, including those who are obese. They're focused on things like access to appropriate health care or employment discrimination, things like that. And they're fine with people losing weight if that is what they want to do. Others are like you describe. It's a varied group of people.
Is there actually a debate about that? Is there anyone who advocates making fun of an individual for being fat? That seems like a strawman to me. People saying being fat is a health problem are being mislabeled as "fat shaming". There is a huge difference between calling someone a "fatty" to hurt their feelings and stating the FACT that being overweight causes health problems and that we as a society should employ cultural pressure on those who are obese (or those who are underweight) to come more in line with a healthy body not only for their sake but for the sake of society as a whole. That is not "shaming".
Those who are against fat-shaming seem to be against the idea of someone just being flippant and rude to an individual. Okay...yeah thats inappropriate same as it would be inappropriate to be flippant and rude about any of their physical attributes. Does anyone actually believe otherwise? That just seems like a strawman to me.
If someone has cancer I don't call them cancer-face but I would support them fighting the cancer. If, for some reason, they decide cancer is good for them and they want me to accept their cancer as being part of who they are I'm not going to do that because that is ridiculous. At that point am I cancer-shaming? Is cancer somehow part of their identity and by speaking out against cancer I am being rude to them in some way?
There are absolutely people who advocate ridiculing and shaming obese people. I don't know if you are very familiar with reddit, but they had entire groups of subreddits dedicated to that, doing things like sharing pictures of people for the purposes of mocking them, directing comments at them, etc. I have some online acquaintances who receive frequent comments mocking their weight. Like daily -- comments calling them names, saying they're disgusting, speculation about what is "wrong" with their partners to want to be with them, tweeting pictures of them for the purposes of ridicule, etc.
I'm glad it seems like a strawman to you because it means that you aren't seeing this type of behavior, but it does happen. It happens a lot to some higher profile obese women (not to say it doesn't happen to men too, it's just the people I know happen to be women). The courage it takes to be a higher profile obese/overweight woman is incredible because you have to be ready for people who don't know you to constantly bring up your weight if you are expressing a political/cultural opinion they don't like.
It happens even if you aren't overweight -- in political/cultural discussions, I've had men making dismissive and ridiculing comments about me based on the assumption that I was overweight (things like "You're probably a fat ugly feminist," "She's probably so fat nobody would want her," etc). These are in conversations that have nothing to do with weight and nobody is asking anyone to "accept" anything about fatness.
I am not saying that what I face as a not-fat person who gets accused of being fat as a way to "discredit" my opinion is equivalent to what these women go through, but the truth is that in some sections of the internet, "fat shaming" is a way to try to silence political/cultural speech by women (and possibly some men, I don't know, don't have enough experience with this) by just making it so that you have to wade through so many comments on your weight and appearance that you will decide it just isn't worth it.
If someone expresses an opinion and they're fat, you aren't "accepting" their fatness if you just discuss the opinion and don't bring up their weight. Their weight isn't relevant to the discussion. If we're talking about minimum wage or the Matrix movies, weight isn't relevant and you don't have to support or not support their weight.
I realize this isn't exactly what you are referring to, but "fat shaming" is real. I'm glad it isn't something you support, I'm glad you don't see it because it is an incredibly sad thing to see.
That subreddit was banned, thankfully.
I agree with you that fat shaming is real.
Where I think some of the fat acceptance advocates are crossing the line is that they want protection as a special class, and that goes beyond wanting to not be shamed.
3 -
There is very real discrimination against people, particularly women, based on weight.
"Overweight women earn smaller paychecks"
Short men and overweight women earn less"
"Extra pounds prove costly to women in the workplace"
Obesity bias common among medical students
Then there was this incidentProfessor tweets about fat grad school applicants
Dear obese PhD applicants: if you didn’t have the willpower to stop eating carbs, you won’t have the willpower to do a dissertation #truth.
~Dr. Jeffery Miller, University of New Mexico "
That isn't limited to one person.
Weight a factor in graduate school admissions
P. S. I want a cookie for writing all of that on my phone.
The question isn't whether this happens. The question is what to do about it. I have no trouble with the idea of open discussion and trying to change attitudes. However, that's not all that some are pushing for.
Obesity is a self-inflicted condition. These people may face discrimination because societal norms (what norm, most people are overweight!) dictate a certain physical appearance, but how does having a self-inflicted, easily corrected condition merit protection under the law as a special class? In my mind, that's a bridge too far.3 -
Fat acceptance = people who stand up and say, yes I overeat, or I love food, or I have a physical condition, or whatever... is it any different than say... a knocker on your door or a stander on the street that inquires about your need for the Lord JC in your life? what people stand for... is as vast as the number of people...IF a lonely person, sees someone and identifies with that person and says Hell Yeah I am fat and I am proud of myself.. JUST like that woman, or man... and it empowers that person to step up and step out... then yay!!! We all need a hero in our lives... we all need some one/thing to believe in so we don't feel alone... let some fat people own that... let the door knocker, or the street stander own that... our worlds are governed by our perception... I saw one poster that suggested "fat" is a world issue... in their eyes I guess it is... BUT in my eyes... I see billions of people... that's literally thousands of millions... struggling to feed themselves let alone eat too much...
I say... end this thread... donate a meal to a homeless shelter... and as we approach that designated birthday... as someone I know has continually reminded me is JUST a day appropriated by early Christians to make converting the pagans a little easier...
happy festivus to one and all ...
2 -
Until reading this thread I was under the impression that the fat acceptance movement was a push to end discrimination against overweight and obese people in social and professional environments. It's been an education to see how so many different agendas make up the whole. I'm staunchly in favor of working to make body-shaming of any sort socially unacceptable. Knowing full well that if that day ever comes there'll always be another group available for shaming because anyone who's different from me (particularity if I have the potential of becoming one of those people has to be kept in their place. Rooting out institutionalized discrimination is like playing whack-a-mole. Just when you think k you've got them all another one raises it's ugly head.
3 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »JstTheWayIam wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »
Yes actually, that is what the "fat acceptance" movement is, its people who argue that being obese is healthy and there is nothing to be concerned by and that we should as a society "accept" being fat as normal and healthy.
That's not what I see. I see people looking for acceptance in society. Someone shouldn't be looked down upon because of there weight.
Who is anyone to judge.
Okay well just because you personally haven't encountered people from the fat acceptance movement doesn't mean they don't exist and as far as I can tell the subject of this thread is "Fat acceptance movement".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fat_acceptance_movement
This is a movement who glorifies being fat to the point of shaming people for trying to lose weight if they are obese. Understand that that is what we are talking about when we talk about the fat acceptance movement. You seem to be confusing them with people who just stand against verbally abusing fat people which is completely legitimate.
I get it. This is a movement so ridiculous your brain rebels at the very idea that it would even exist. The fat acceptance movement is like the other side of the coin to the pro-Ana groups who glorify being anorexicly thin.
If I speak out against the pro-Ana movement it doesn't mean that I am a skinny-shamer. If I speak out against the fat acceptance movement that doesn't make me a fat-shamer.
Not every person in the FAM has the same thoughts (just like not every feminist or BLM advocate agrees with every other person in the movement). I've met people who identify as FAM who don't "glorify" it, they're just arguing for decent treatment for everyone, including those who are obese. They're focused on things like access to appropriate health care or employment discrimination, things like that. And they're fine with people losing weight if that is what they want to do. Others are like you describe. It's a varied group of people.
Most of the people I've seen cited who get into pushing things like fat studies into academia at best promote a "weight neutral" approach to everything.
I'm not aware of any of the thought leaders in the movement who are okay with dieting. The mantra that they use is that dieting leads to failure leads to weight regain (and then some) and is dangerous and not to be undertaken. Hence the "weight neutral" stance.
I don't know how the movement is defined and mostly prefer to ignore it, but there are a lot of anti diet people, who talk about dieting and pressure to fit a particular societal norm resulting, for some, in more weight gain and messed up views about food. I am thinking of people like Isabel Foxen Duke, Laura Fraser (wrote Losing It, which I enjoyed and really helped me get into a better frame of mind), and even some of the people who focus on fitness and weights like Jen Sinkler. Some of those (maybe Duke and Fraser, some others) I'd consider closer to the movement than others, although I'd say body acceptance and anti dieting vs. "fat acceptance." But the bigger point is that none of them are anti weight loss or would say that it can't be done -- Duke and Fraser have talked about normalizing their relationship with food and getting out of the dieting cycle and focusing on other things as being responsible for being able to lose weight. In the same camp I'd put the intuitive eating people, as their the idea is that focusing on dieting and messed up ideas of food are what makes putting on weight so common, and that getting past that, even to the point of overeating for a while to be able to learn to trust the body and not be in starve/binge cycles is important (and self-hatred plays into that).
That's not my approach so much -- I don't have a history with dieting much and am skeptical of intuitive eating in general as I don't think it squares with human evolution as well as people want to think, but oh well.
Bigger point is that I'd include in the discussion people who are anti diet, who focus on body positivity and self acceptance, so on, even if they don't think being fat is idea or the longterm goal. This is because I think they'd also say that stigmatizing fat isn't really the answer.
But of course I agree that some go too far, and the HAES notion that fat is healthy or can't and shouldn't be changed is dumb (if a reasonably common kind of extreme for a "movement"). There are similarly wings of feminism that irritate me (even though I consider myself a feminist), and ideas that I think we unhealthy or bad within the various movements surrounding sexual orientation.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I think it would be easier to call out the ideas that we think are bad (and I think most of us in this discussion largely agree on what's bad) simply because I get the sense that some here are interpreting those of us saying "there may be some good things in the acceptance idea" or "I don't get what you would mean in telling someone else that 'fat is not okay'" (going back to earlier in the thread for that one) to mean that we consider calling obesity a societal problem to be fat shaming or that doctors shouldn't tell patients that overweight is a health concern, and I don't think that's the case.
I do think -- and maybe the social environment I know is non representative, as I know it's certainly not politically representative of the country as a whole, heh -- that the idea that people don't know obesity is a health risk or that fatness is being seen as desirable, or even not undesirable is completely unlike the world I see and IMO not a serious concern. Bigger issue is that people still get fat, despite this, so yes, that's a problem that I'd like to find a way to help with it, because it is generally bad for individuals and society.
I think the two you cited aren't, as you said, quite out there enough to be fat acceptance. They look to be more body positive, intuitive eating, and anti-structured dieting. I don't necessarily disagree with any of those approaches and think they're probably the healthiest for quite a few people.
I certainly agree with the idea of feeling positive about yourself as an enabling force to forming healthy habits. They seem to support this.
The fat acceptance movement as I've seen it, however, veers off from that into at times celebrating what amounts to gluttony. That's not healthy behavior.
I think I've been equating body positivity or anti-dieting with "fat acceptance," which is probably a mistake, but to me even "fat acceptance" doesn't require that one think that being fat is a good thing or not bad for health or whatever. Some aspects of the "movement," sure. (Reagan Chastain or whoever.)
As a result, the ideas I find objectionable may be less fringe or more central within "the movement" itself today than I thought. (I admit I wasn't aware of fat acceptance as anything other than "shaming is bad" prior to MFP, although I was aware of the anti dieting/intuitive eating/body positivity/focus on health and fitness stuff I mentioned before.)
However, when we are talking about the influence on society in general, I am still comfortable in saying that I think worries (again, looking way back in the thread) about obesity being seen as desirable or not unhealthy or not something most people would prefer to change about themselves, if they believe it's possible, is not a true concern.
I'd be curious where the disagreement lines are drawn when it comes to posters in this thread.1 -
There is very real discrimination against people, particularly women, based on weight.
"Overweight women earn smaller paychecks"
Short men and overweight women earn less"
"Extra pounds prove costly to women in the workplace"
Obesity bias common among medical students
Then there was this incidentProfessor tweets about fat grad school applicants
Dear obese PhD applicants: if you didn’t have the willpower to stop eating carbs, you won’t have the willpower to do a dissertation #truth.
~Dr. Jeffery Miller, University of New Mexico "
That isn't limited to one person.
Weight a factor in graduate school admissions
P. S. I want a cookie for writing all of that on my phone.
Cookie for you!
You deserve it for typing all of that with no wonky auto correct
There is always differing treatment based on appearance and perception. Weight, facial feature symmetry, unusual features such as prominent birthmarks, height, clothing, makeup, hairstyle, apparent age, you name it and it affects someone's first impression of you.
I would not expect that first impression (good or bad) to be overturned in a single interview unless the professor found the candidate to be a standout in some way.
It would be nice if we could all be judged based on merit - whatever qualities are applicable to the situation - but barring situations where blind tests are appropriate that won't happen.
It's absolutely true that we are constantly evaluating others. But if we are in positions where we are screening candidates for job/educational opportunities, we should strive to try to be aware of our biases/assumptions/impressions. There are things that organizations can do to try to address decisions based on irrelevant factors even though we will probably never totally succeed.3 -
thisonetimeatthegym wrote: »I think there are two competing ideas going on.
1. Fat shaming is wrong and cruel no one can know where another person is in their life or how hard they're working to be the person they want to be.
2. Fat acceptance is dangerous. You get these "statistics" which say humans CAN be healthy at varying levels of being overweight, but the simple fact is the vast majority are not. If people are not eating healthy foods and exercising as part of their routines, they're not going to be healthy. The emphasis of such movements should always be for people to seek help first, be it a food logging app or a commitment with buddies to do the gym.
You can't believe #2 and #1 concurrently.
Because while you are spouting politically correct narratives, you are mentally judging fat people.
Nonsense. Humans mentally judge each other; it's built into us.
1. I see no reason to give someone crap for their choice to be overfat to the point of self-destruction.
2. It doesn't make it less dangerous to be overfat.2 -
janejellyroll wrote: »There is very real discrimination against people, particularly women, based on weight.
"Overweight women earn smaller paychecks"
Short men and overweight women earn less"
"Extra pounds prove costly to women in the workplace"
Obesity bias common among medical students
Then there was this incidentProfessor tweets about fat grad school applicants
Dear obese PhD applicants: if you didn’t have the willpower to stop eating carbs, you won’t have the willpower to do a dissertation #truth.
~Dr. Jeffery Miller, University of New Mexico "
That isn't limited to one person.
Weight a factor in graduate school admissions
P. S. I want a cookie for writing all of that on my phone.
Cookie for you!
You deserve it for typing all of that with no wonky auto correct
There is always differing treatment based on appearance and perception. Weight, facial feature symmetry, unusual features such as prominent birthmarks, height, clothing, makeup, hairstyle, apparent age, you name it and it affects someone's first impression of you.
I would not expect that first impression (good or bad) to be overturned in a single interview unless the professor found the candidate to be a standout in some way.
It would be nice if we could all be judged based on merit - whatever qualities are applicable to the situation - but barring situations where blind tests are appropriate that won't happen.
It's absolutely true that we are constantly evaluating others. But if we are in positions where we are screening candidates for job/educational opportunities, we should strive to try to be aware of our biases/assumptions/impressions. There are things that organizations can do to try to address decisions based on irrelevant factors even though we will probably never totally succeed.
I agree.
The problem from my point of view is that unless those biases/assumptions are pretty overt, organizations won't pick up on it and can't do anything about it. For example, it would be impossible to prove that I chose a particular employee out of a field of well-qualified candidates because I was biased against the rest of the field for reasons of appearance unless I spoke about it or established some kind of obvious pattern of doing it.
As for individuals being aware, how conscious are we of how much of our choices are influenced by appearance? I mean, there's obvious ones for certain, but I think that those influences are much more pervasive and subtle than most of us realize. I also think they are pretty easily bypassed with enough direct experience with a person - something that I don't think often happens in a single interview (to go back to the previous example).3 -
janejellyroll wrote: »There is very real discrimination against people, particularly women, based on weight.
"Overweight women earn smaller paychecks"
Short men and overweight women earn less"
"Extra pounds prove costly to women in the workplace"
Obesity bias common among medical students
Then there was this incidentProfessor tweets about fat grad school applicants
Dear obese PhD applicants: if you didn’t have the willpower to stop eating carbs, you won’t have the willpower to do a dissertation #truth.
~Dr. Jeffery Miller, University of New Mexico "
That isn't limited to one person.
Weight a factor in graduate school admissions
P. S. I want a cookie for writing all of that on my phone.
Cookie for you!
You deserve it for typing all of that with no wonky auto correct
There is always differing treatment based on appearance and perception. Weight, facial feature symmetry, unusual features such as prominent birthmarks, height, clothing, makeup, hairstyle, apparent age, you name it and it affects someone's first impression of you.
I would not expect that first impression (good or bad) to be overturned in a single interview unless the professor found the candidate to be a standout in some way.
It would be nice if we could all be judged based on merit - whatever qualities are applicable to the situation - but barring situations where blind tests are appropriate that won't happen.
It's absolutely true that we are constantly evaluating others. But if we are in positions where we are screening candidates for job/educational opportunities, we should strive to try to be aware of our biases/assumptions/impressions. There are things that organizations can do to try to address decisions based on irrelevant factors even though we will probably never totally succeed.
I agree.
The problem from my point of view is that unless those biases/assumptions are pretty overt, organizations won't pick up on it and can't do anything about it. For example, it would be impossible to prove that I chose a particular employee out of a field of well-qualified candidates because I was biased against the rest of the field for reasons of appearance unless I spoke about it or established some kind of obvious pattern of doing it.
As for individuals being aware, how conscious are we of how much of our choices are influenced by appearance? I mean, there's obvious ones for certain, but I think that those influences are much more pervasive and subtle than most of us realize. I also think they are pretty easily bypassed with enough direct experience with a person - something that I don't think often happens in a single interview (to go back to the previous example).
I agree -- unless individuals themselves are willing to accept they have biases and focus on them, there is little that organizations can do to address it.
I think many people are unconscious about their potential biases. When I went through interview training at my workplace, one that I became aware of was the bias towards people who are like me in some way. I realized that I have a much more favorable first impression of someone when their background or circumstances are like mine in some ways. There's little that my organization could do to really find this and address it if it was impacting the results of my job interviews -- it's one that I am able to manage (at least to some extent) now that I am aware of it.1 -
janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »There is very real discrimination against people, particularly women, based on weight.
"Overweight women earn smaller paychecks"
Short men and overweight women earn less"
"Extra pounds prove costly to women in the workplace"
Obesity bias common among medical students
Then there was this incidentProfessor tweets about fat grad school applicants
Dear obese PhD applicants: if you didn’t have the willpower to stop eating carbs, you won’t have the willpower to do a dissertation #truth.
~Dr. Jeffery Miller, University of New Mexico "
That isn't limited to one person.
Weight a factor in graduate school admissions
P. S. I want a cookie for writing all of that on my phone.
Cookie for you!
You deserve it for typing all of that with no wonky auto correct
There is always differing treatment based on appearance and perception. Weight, facial feature symmetry, unusual features such as prominent birthmarks, height, clothing, makeup, hairstyle, apparent age, you name it and it affects someone's first impression of you.
I would not expect that first impression (good or bad) to be overturned in a single interview unless the professor found the candidate to be a standout in some way.
It would be nice if we could all be judged based on merit - whatever qualities are applicable to the situation - but barring situations where blind tests are appropriate that won't happen.
It's absolutely true that we are constantly evaluating others. But if we are in positions where we are screening candidates for job/educational opportunities, we should strive to try to be aware of our biases/assumptions/impressions. There are things that organizations can do to try to address decisions based on irrelevant factors even though we will probably never totally succeed.
I agree.
The problem from my point of view is that unless those biases/assumptions are pretty overt, organizations won't pick up on it and can't do anything about it. For example, it would be impossible to prove that I chose a particular employee out of a field of well-qualified candidates because I was biased against the rest of the field for reasons of appearance unless I spoke about it or established some kind of obvious pattern of doing it.
As for individuals being aware, how conscious are we of how much of our choices are influenced by appearance? I mean, there's obvious ones for certain, but I think that those influences are much more pervasive and subtle than most of us realize. I also think they are pretty easily bypassed with enough direct experience with a person - something that I don't think often happens in a single interview (to go back to the previous example).
I agree -- unless individuals themselves are willing to accept they have biases and focus on them, there is little that organizations can do to address it.
I think many people are unconscious about their potential biases. When I went through interview training at my workplace, one that I became aware of was the bias towards people who are like me in some way. I realized that I have a much more favorable first impression of someone when their background or circumstances are like mine in some ways. There's little that my organization could do to really find this and address it if it was impacting the results of my job interviews -- it's one that I am able to manage (at least to some extent) now that I am aware of it.
Perhaps sometimes, but I often notice my own biases. Along the obesity wagon, I have a co-worker who is extremely overweight and unfit. When walking around our manufacturing plant and office, he will often stop to sit down and catch his breath. This is even though he walks slower than everyone else. I noticed he goes through 2 cups (44 oz. each) of soda on most days from the local convenience store (1 that he brings in at the start of the day, and a 2nd that he brings back from lunch). My bias tells me that this is probably regular, high-calorie soda (I don't know what it is, in fact) and that he doesn't care about his weight.
Even though it shouldn't really, this co-worker's behavior bothers me. I think the reason it bothers me is because I've worked incredibly hard to lose weight. I've noticed through MFP that almost everyone seems to find it easy to lose weight... and I mean most people just seem to lose weight by cutting CI or increasing CO. Things are not as simple for me and I have rarely seen the results that most everyone else would see under the same circumstances. It's annoying and frustrating. As far as I know, it hasn't affected our work interaction. I'm not going to say anything to him about it, of course. The difference is whether that bias actually turns into action. I don't think I can change whether his size bothers me or not. I can change whether I treat him differently as a result. The first step to that is just being aware of that underlying thought. The second step is considering whether or not I react to that thought.
Additionally, I could see some bias against me when I was overweight. I had a dentist who was hesitant to remove my wisdom teeth without a GP doing a fitness test first. I had to get on a treadmill and prove that I was fit enough to get dental surgery. What is worse is that this dentist wrote a very detailed explanation for the GP that clearly revealed that he thought I had no self-control. In his mind, I was a "slob" not worth his time. In hindsight, I should have just seen a different dentist. At that time, I was only about 50-55 lbs. too heavy (on BMI charts). I can't imagine what that dentist would have thought if I was even heavier.
There are other examples of situations where I could clearly see bias from others when I was much more overweight. It definitely exists, but I shouldn't be able to notice it. Because if I noticed it, that means I'm being treated differently. At that point, bias has manifested into a discriminatory action.2 -
midwesterner85 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »There is very real discrimination against people, particularly women, based on weight.
"Overweight women earn smaller paychecks"
Short men and overweight women earn less"
"Extra pounds prove costly to women in the workplace"
Obesity bias common among medical students
Then there was this incidentProfessor tweets about fat grad school applicants
Dear obese PhD applicants: if you didn’t have the willpower to stop eating carbs, you won’t have the willpower to do a dissertation #truth.
~Dr. Jeffery Miller, University of New Mexico "
That isn't limited to one person.
Weight a factor in graduate school admissions
P. S. I want a cookie for writing all of that on my phone.
Cookie for you!
You deserve it for typing all of that with no wonky auto correct
There is always differing treatment based on appearance and perception. Weight, facial feature symmetry, unusual features such as prominent birthmarks, height, clothing, makeup, hairstyle, apparent age, you name it and it affects someone's first impression of you.
I would not expect that first impression (good or bad) to be overturned in a single interview unless the professor found the candidate to be a standout in some way.
It would be nice if we could all be judged based on merit - whatever qualities are applicable to the situation - but barring situations where blind tests are appropriate that won't happen.
It's absolutely true that we are constantly evaluating others. But if we are in positions where we are screening candidates for job/educational opportunities, we should strive to try to be aware of our biases/assumptions/impressions. There are things that organizations can do to try to address decisions based on irrelevant factors even though we will probably never totally succeed.
I agree.
The problem from my point of view is that unless those biases/assumptions are pretty overt, organizations won't pick up on it and can't do anything about it. For example, it would be impossible to prove that I chose a particular employee out of a field of well-qualified candidates because I was biased against the rest of the field for reasons of appearance unless I spoke about it or established some kind of obvious pattern of doing it.
As for individuals being aware, how conscious are we of how much of our choices are influenced by appearance? I mean, there's obvious ones for certain, but I think that those influences are much more pervasive and subtle than most of us realize. I also think they are pretty easily bypassed with enough direct experience with a person - something that I don't think often happens in a single interview (to go back to the previous example).
I agree -- unless individuals themselves are willing to accept they have biases and focus on them, there is little that organizations can do to address it.
I think many people are unconscious about their potential biases. When I went through interview training at my workplace, one that I became aware of was the bias towards people who are like me in some way. I realized that I have a much more favorable first impression of someone when their background or circumstances are like mine in some ways. There's little that my organization could do to really find this and address it if it was impacting the results of my job interviews -- it's one that I am able to manage (at least to some extent) now that I am aware of it.
Perhaps sometimes, but I often notice my own biases. Along the obesity wagon, I have a co-worker who is extremely overweight and unfit. When walking around our manufacturing plant and office, he will often stop to sit down and catch his breath. This is even though he walks slower than everyone else. I noticed he goes through 2 cups (44 oz. each) of soda on most days from the local convenience store (1 that he brings in at the start of the day, and a 2nd that he brings back from lunch). My bias tells me that this is probably regular, high-calorie soda (I don't know what it is, in fact) and that he doesn't care about his weight.
Even though it shouldn't really, this co-worker's behavior bothers me. I think the reason it bothers me is because I've worked incredibly hard to lose weight. I've noticed through MFP that almost everyone seems to find it easy to lose weight... and I mean most people just seem to lose weight by cutting CI or increasing CO. Things are not as simple for me and I have rarely seen the results that most everyone else would see under the same circumstances. It's annoying and frustrating. As far as I know, it hasn't affected our work interaction. I'm not going to say anything to him about it, of course. The difference is whether that bias actually turns into action. I don't think I can change whether his size bothers me or not. I can change whether I treat him differently as a result. The first step to that is just being aware of that underlying thought. The second step is considering whether or not I react to that thought.
Additionally, I could see some bias against me when I was overweight. I had a dentist who was hesitant to remove my wisdom teeth without a GP doing a fitness test first. I had to get on a treadmill and prove that I was fit enough to get dental surgery. What is worse is that this dentist wrote a very detailed explanation for the GP that clearly revealed that he thought I had no self-control. In his mind, I was a "slob" not worth his time. In hindsight, I should have just seen a different dentist. At that time, I was only about 50-55 lbs. too heavy (on BMI charts). I can't imagine what that dentist would have thought if I was even heavier.
There are other examples of situations where I could clearly see bias from others when I was much more overweight. It definitely exists, but I shouldn't be able to notice it. Because if I noticed it, that means I'm being treated differently. At that point, bias has manifested into a discriminatory action.
This really resonates with me. I still can't control when I have an overly positive (or negative) first impression of someone, but I can take steps to control how I express that. Awareness is the first step because without that awareness, we may not even realize how our actions are being shaped by our thoughts about someone.2 -
midwesterner85 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »There is very real discrimination against people, particularly women, based on weight.
"Overweight women earn smaller paychecks"
Short men and overweight women earn less"
"Extra pounds prove costly to women in the workplace"
Obesity bias common among medical students
Then there was this incidentProfessor tweets about fat grad school applicants
Dear obese PhD applicants: if you didn’t have the willpower to stop eating carbs, you won’t have the willpower to do a dissertation #truth.
~Dr. Jeffery Miller, University of New Mexico "
That isn't limited to one person.
Weight a factor in graduate school admissions
P. S. I want a cookie for writing all of that on my phone.
Cookie for you!
You deserve it for typing all of that with no wonky auto correct
There is always differing treatment based on appearance and perception. Weight, facial feature symmetry, unusual features such as prominent birthmarks, height, clothing, makeup, hairstyle, apparent age, you name it and it affects someone's first impression of you.
I would not expect that first impression (good or bad) to be overturned in a single interview unless the professor found the candidate to be a standout in some way.
It would be nice if we could all be judged based on merit - whatever qualities are applicable to the situation - but barring situations where blind tests are appropriate that won't happen.
It's absolutely true that we are constantly evaluating others. But if we are in positions where we are screening candidates for job/educational opportunities, we should strive to try to be aware of our biases/assumptions/impressions. There are things that organizations can do to try to address decisions based on irrelevant factors even though we will probably never totally succeed.
I agree.
The problem from my point of view is that unless those biases/assumptions are pretty overt, organizations won't pick up on it and can't do anything about it. For example, it would be impossible to prove that I chose a particular employee out of a field of well-qualified candidates because I was biased against the rest of the field for reasons of appearance unless I spoke about it or established some kind of obvious pattern of doing it.
As for individuals being aware, how conscious are we of how much of our choices are influenced by appearance? I mean, there's obvious ones for certain, but I think that those influences are much more pervasive and subtle than most of us realize. I also think they are pretty easily bypassed with enough direct experience with a person - something that I don't think often happens in a single interview (to go back to the previous example).
I agree -- unless individuals themselves are willing to accept they have biases and focus on them, there is little that organizations can do to address it.
I think many people are unconscious about their potential biases. When I went through interview training at my workplace, one that I became aware of was the bias towards people who are like me in some way. I realized that I have a much more favorable first impression of someone when their background or circumstances are like mine in some ways. There's little that my organization could do to really find this and address it if it was impacting the results of my job interviews -- it's one that I am able to manage (at least to some extent) now that I am aware of it.
Perhaps sometimes, but I often notice my own biases. Along the obesity wagon, I have a co-worker who is extremely overweight and unfit. When walking around our manufacturing plant and office, he will often stop to sit down and catch his breath. This is even though he walks slower than everyone else. I noticed he goes through 2 cups (44 oz. each) of soda on most days from the local convenience store (1 that he brings in at the start of the day, and a 2nd that he brings back from lunch). My bias tells me that this is probably regular, high-calorie soda (I don't know what it is, in fact) and that he doesn't care about his weight.
Even though it shouldn't really, this co-worker's behavior bothers me. I think the reason it bothers me is because I've worked incredibly hard to lose weight. I've noticed through MFP that almost everyone seems to find it easy to lose weight... and I mean most people just seem to lose weight by cutting CI or increasing CO. Things are not as simple for me and I have rarely seen the results that most everyone else would see under the same circumstances. It's annoying and frustrating. As far as I know, it hasn't affected our work interaction. I'm not going to say anything to him about it, of course. The difference is whether that bias actually turns into action. I don't think I can change whether his size bothers me or not. I can change whether I treat him differently as a result. The first step to that is just being aware of that underlying thought. The second step is considering whether or not I react to that thought.
Additionally, I could see some bias against me when I was overweight. I had a dentist who was hesitant to remove my wisdom teeth without a GP doing a fitness test first. I had to get on a treadmill and prove that I was fit enough to get dental surgery. What is worse is that this dentist wrote a very detailed explanation for the GP that clearly revealed that he thought I had no self-control. In his mind, I was a "slob" not worth his time. In hindsight, I should have just seen a different dentist. At that time, I was only about 50-55 lbs. too heavy (on BMI charts). I can't imagine what that dentist would have thought if I was even heavier.
There are other examples of situations where I could clearly see bias from others when I was much more overweight. It definitely exists, but I shouldn't be able to notice it. Because if I noticed it, that means I'm being treated differently. At that point, bias has manifested into a discriminatory action.
The discriminatory action described is a defensive one and unfortunately necessary thanks to lack of tort reform. Being overweight causes all manner of adverse events when subjected to anesthesia. Your dentist isn't making this personal - they are simply mitigating risk of your health and covering themselves from a potential suit.3 -
janejellyroll wrote: »When I went through interview training at my workplace, one that I became aware of was the bias towards people who are like me in some way. I realized that I have a much more favorable first impression of someone when their background or circumstances are like mine in some ways. There's little that my organization could do to really find this and address it if it was impacting the results of my job interviews -- it's one that I am able to manage (at least to some extent) now that I am aware of it.
Yeah, this is really true. I realized this when I used to do interviews more often (at my first job they'd often have candidates go through a series of interviews with people of various levels and then to lunch with a couple of junior people to ask questions). People who would otherwise have excellent credentials but something on the resume that made them (on paper) not fit in/not be like the average employee would typically get dinged, and I could predict that it would happen. I'm not talking about anything you would normally think of as a reason people get discriminated against either. Made me realize that there were likely to be other ways that would affect hiring.
I don't think it's something that you can prevent, and I do think being aware of it (if you care, in some cases I think people would double down in arguing that it matters) is a way to better avoid it, but it was somewhat eye-opening in thinking about these things.0 -
midwesterner85 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »There is very real discrimination against people, particularly women, based on weight.
"Overweight women earn smaller paychecks"
Short men and overweight women earn less"
"Extra pounds prove costly to women in the workplace"
Obesity bias common among medical students
Then there was this incidentProfessor tweets about fat grad school applicants
Dear obese PhD applicants: if you didn’t have the willpower to stop eating carbs, you won’t have the willpower to do a dissertation #truth.
~Dr. Jeffery Miller, University of New Mexico "
That isn't limited to one person.
Weight a factor in graduate school admissions
P. S. I want a cookie for writing all of that on my phone.
Cookie for you!
You deserve it for typing all of that with no wonky auto correct
There is always differing treatment based on appearance and perception. Weight, facial feature symmetry, unusual features such as prominent birthmarks, height, clothing, makeup, hairstyle, apparent age, you name it and it affects someone's first impression of you.
I would not expect that first impression (good or bad) to be overturned in a single interview unless the professor found the candidate to be a standout in some way.
It would be nice if we could all be judged based on merit - whatever qualities are applicable to the situation - but barring situations where blind tests are appropriate that won't happen.
It's absolutely true that we are constantly evaluating others. But if we are in positions where we are screening candidates for job/educational opportunities, we should strive to try to be aware of our biases/assumptions/impressions. There are things that organizations can do to try to address decisions based on irrelevant factors even though we will probably never totally succeed.
I agree.
The problem from my point of view is that unless those biases/assumptions are pretty overt, organizations won't pick up on it and can't do anything about it. For example, it would be impossible to prove that I chose a particular employee out of a field of well-qualified candidates because I was biased against the rest of the field for reasons of appearance unless I spoke about it or established some kind of obvious pattern of doing it.
As for individuals being aware, how conscious are we of how much of our choices are influenced by appearance? I mean, there's obvious ones for certain, but I think that those influences are much more pervasive and subtle than most of us realize. I also think they are pretty easily bypassed with enough direct experience with a person - something that I don't think often happens in a single interview (to go back to the previous example).
I agree -- unless individuals themselves are willing to accept they have biases and focus on them, there is little that organizations can do to address it.
I think many people are unconscious about their potential biases. When I went through interview training at my workplace, one that I became aware of was the bias towards people who are like me in some way. I realized that I have a much more favorable first impression of someone when their background or circumstances are like mine in some ways. There's little that my organization could do to really find this and address it if it was impacting the results of my job interviews -- it's one that I am able to manage (at least to some extent) now that I am aware of it.
Perhaps sometimes, but I often notice my own biases. Along the obesity wagon, I have a co-worker who is extremely overweight and unfit. When walking around our manufacturing plant and office, he will often stop to sit down and catch his breath. This is even though he walks slower than everyone else. I noticed he goes through 2 cups (44 oz. each) of soda on most days from the local convenience store (1 that he brings in at the start of the day, and a 2nd that he brings back from lunch). My bias tells me that this is probably regular, high-calorie soda (I don't know what it is, in fact) and that he doesn't care about his weight.
Even though it shouldn't really, this co-worker's behavior bothers me. I think the reason it bothers me is because I've worked incredibly hard to lose weight. I've noticed through MFP that almost everyone seems to find it easy to lose weight... and I mean most people just seem to lose weight by cutting CI or increasing CO. Things are not as simple for me and I have rarely seen the results that most everyone else would see under the same circumstances. It's annoying and frustrating. As far as I know, it hasn't affected our work interaction. I'm not going to say anything to him about it, of course. The difference is whether that bias actually turns into action. I don't think I can change whether his size bothers me or not. I can change whether I treat him differently as a result. The first step to that is just being aware of that underlying thought. The second step is considering whether or not I react to that thought.
Additionally, I could see some bias against me when I was overweight. I had a dentist who was hesitant to remove my wisdom teeth without a GP doing a fitness test first. I had to get on a treadmill and prove that I was fit enough to get dental surgery. What is worse is that this dentist wrote a very detailed explanation for the GP that clearly revealed that he thought I had no self-control. In his mind, I was a "slob" not worth his time. In hindsight, I should have just seen a different dentist. At that time, I was only about 50-55 lbs. too heavy (on BMI charts). I can't imagine what that dentist would have thought if I was even heavier.
There are other examples of situations where I could clearly see bias from others when I was much more overweight. It definitely exists, but I shouldn't be able to notice it. Because if I noticed it, that means I'm being treated differently. At that point, bias has manifested into a discriminatory action.
The discriminatory action described is a defensive one and unfortunately necessary thanks to lack of tort reform. Being overweight causes all manner of adverse events when subjected to anesthesia. Your dentist isn't making this personal - they are simply mitigating risk of your health and covering themselves from a potential suit.
I might accept that argument, except you didn't read the note to my GP. It was way beyond CYA.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »JstTheWayIam wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »
Yes actually, that is what the "fat acceptance" movement is, its people who argue that being obese is healthy and there is nothing to be concerned by and that we should as a society "accept" being fat as normal and healthy.
That's not what I see. I see people looking for acceptance in society. Someone shouldn't be looked down upon because of there weight.
Who is anyone to judge.
Okay well just because you personally haven't encountered people from the fat acceptance movement doesn't mean they don't exist and as far as I can tell the subject of this thread is "Fat acceptance movement".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fat_acceptance_movement
This is a movement who glorifies being fat to the point of shaming people for trying to lose weight if they are obese. Understand that that is what we are talking about when we talk about the fat acceptance movement. You seem to be confusing them with people who just stand against verbally abusing fat people which is completely legitimate.
I get it. This is a movement so ridiculous your brain rebels at the very idea that it would even exist. The fat acceptance movement is like the other side of the coin to the pro-Ana groups who glorify being anorexicly thin.
If I speak out against the pro-Ana movement it doesn't mean that I am a skinny-shamer. If I speak out against the fat acceptance movement that doesn't make me a fat-shamer.
Not every person in the FAM has the same thoughts (just like not every feminist or BLM advocate agrees with every other person in the movement). I've met people who identify as FAM who don't "glorify" it, they're just arguing for decent treatment for everyone, including those who are obese. They're focused on things like access to appropriate health care or employment discrimination, things like that. And they're fine with people losing weight if that is what they want to do. Others are like you describe. It's a varied group of people.
Most of the people I've seen cited who get into pushing things like fat studies into academia at best promote a "weight neutral" approach to everything.
I'm not aware of any of the thought leaders in the movement who are okay with dieting. The mantra that they use is that dieting leads to failure leads to weight regain (and then some) and is dangerous and not to be undertaken. Hence the "weight neutral" stance.
I don't know how the movement is defined and mostly prefer to ignore it, but there are a lot of anti diet people, who talk about dieting and pressure to fit a particular societal norm resulting, for some, in more weight gain and messed up views about food. I am thinking of people like Isabel Foxen Duke, Laura Fraser (wrote Losing It, which I enjoyed and really helped me get into a better frame of mind), and even some of the people who focus on fitness and weights like Jen Sinkler. Some of those (maybe Duke and Fraser, some others) I'd consider closer to the movement than others, although I'd say body acceptance and anti dieting vs. "fat acceptance." But the bigger point is that none of them are anti weight loss or would say that it can't be done -- Duke and Fraser have talked about normalizing their relationship with food and getting out of the dieting cycle and focusing on other things as being responsible for being able to lose weight. In the same camp I'd put the intuitive eating people, as their the idea is that focusing on dieting and messed up ideas of food are what makes putting on weight so common, and that getting past that, even to the point of overeating for a while to be able to learn to trust the body and not be in starve/binge cycles is important (and self-hatred plays into that).
That's not my approach so much -- I don't have a history with dieting much and am skeptical of intuitive eating in general as I don't think it squares with human evolution as well as people want to think, but oh well.
Bigger point is that I'd include in the discussion people who are anti diet, who focus on body positivity and self acceptance, so on, even if they don't think being fat is idea or the longterm goal. This is because I think they'd also say that stigmatizing fat isn't really the answer.
But of course I agree that some go too far, and the HAES notion that fat is healthy or can't and shouldn't be changed is dumb (if a reasonably common kind of extreme for a "movement"). There are similarly wings of feminism that irritate me (even though I consider myself a feminist), and ideas that I think we unhealthy or bad within the various movements surrounding sexual orientation.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I think it would be easier to call out the ideas that we think are bad (and I think most of us in this discussion largely agree on what's bad) simply because I get the sense that some here are interpreting those of us saying "there may be some good things in the acceptance idea" or "I don't get what you would mean in telling someone else that 'fat is not okay'" (going back to earlier in the thread for that one) to mean that we consider calling obesity a societal problem to be fat shaming or that doctors shouldn't tell patients that overweight is a health concern, and I don't think that's the case.
I do think -- and maybe the social environment I know is non representative, as I know it's certainly not politically representative of the country as a whole, heh -- that the idea that people don't know obesity is a health risk or that fatness is being seen as desirable, or even not undesirable is completely unlike the world I see and IMO not a serious concern. Bigger issue is that people still get fat, despite this, so yes, that's a problem that I'd like to find a way to help with it, because it is generally bad for individuals and society.
I think the two you cited aren't, as you said, quite out there enough to be fat acceptance. They look to be more body positive, intuitive eating, and anti-structured dieting. I don't necessarily disagree with any of those approaches and think they're probably the healthiest for quite a few people.
I certainly agree with the idea of feeling positive about yourself as an enabling force to forming healthy habits. They seem to support this.
The fat acceptance movement as I've seen it, however, veers off from that into at times celebrating what amounts to gluttony. That's not healthy behavior.
I think I've been equating body positivity or anti-dieting with "fat acceptance," which is probably a mistake, but to me even "fat acceptance" doesn't require that one think that being fat is a good thing or not bad for health or whatever. Some aspects of the "movement," sure. (Reagan Chastain or whoever.)
As a result, the ideas I find objectionable may be less fringe or more central within "the movement" itself today than I thought. (I admit I wasn't aware of fat acceptance as anything other than "shaming is bad" prior to MFP, although I was aware of the anti dieting/intuitive eating/body positivity/focus on health and fitness stuff I mentioned before.)
However, when we are talking about the influence on society in general, I am still comfortable in saying that I think worries (again, looking way back in the thread) about obesity being seen as desirable or not unhealthy or not something most people would prefer to change about themselves, if they believe it's possible, is not a true concern.
I'd be curious where the disagreement lines are drawn when it comes to posters in this thread.
What concerns me is that the movement as I understand it is making inroads. There are institutes of higher learning that have fat studies symposiums and course offerings.
http://dailycaller.com/2016/01/11/fat-studies-courses-fat-awareness-groups-spread-across-universities/
There is a push to introduce legislation in Manitoba (which for now likely won't get anywhere) that will basically grant the obese protection under human rights law. I think that's taking things too far.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/manitoba-liberals-weight-human-rights-1.3864788
These developments worry me.1 -
CipherZero wrote: »thisonetimeatthegym wrote: »I think there are two competing ideas going on.
1. Fat shaming is wrong and cruel no one can know where another person is in their life or how hard they're working to be the person they want to be.
2. Fat acceptance is dangerous. You get these "statistics" which say humans CAN be healthy at varying levels of being overweight, but the simple fact is the vast majority are not. If people are not eating healthy foods and exercising as part of their routines, they're not going to be healthy. The emphasis of such movements should always be for people to seek help first, be it a food logging app or a commitment with buddies to do the gym.
You can't believe #2 and #1 concurrently.
Because while you are spouting politically correct narratives, you are mentally judging fat people.
Nonsense. Humans mentally judge each other; it's built into us.
1. I see no reason to give someone crap for their choice to be overfat to the point of self-destruction.
2. It doesn't make it less dangerous to be overfat.
My issue is with #1. Did they choose?
People don't understand the power of habit, genetic makeup, medications and stress that combine to make weight loss or gain more complicated than a choice.
For years, I chose to lose weight and gained weight instead.
It was only after much prayer and solutions to the obstacles I faced was I able to lose weight.
So what I'm saying is that you think a lot less compassionately than you act, and I'm sure it comes across even if you are unaware of it.
0
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