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Fat Acceptance Movement
Replies
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jammer1963 wrote: »The term "Thick" comes to mind. I'm not fat, I'm "thick". No, your fat, but in a political correct world, that's not the proper thing to say, so saying "thick" is more acceptable and expected. That only exacerbates the problem.
I love this so much cos in Ireland if you call someone "Thick" it is in no way related to their weight/body. If you're "thick" over here it means you're stupid!! Lol
Thick isn't totally mainstream in the US. Maybe 'cause I'm not a millennial I am pretty sure most I know wouldn't understand what it was supposed to me or consider it an insult. Also, even from MFP, I think it refers to a specific look, not just being fat. (I think it sounds dumb and there are better words, but like I said, I'm not with it.) ;-)However I do think The HAES is definitely related to bigger people.
Eh, it's easy to overestimate the influence of something if you happen to pay a lot of attention to it (like with your FB page). I never heard of HAES before MFP, and I am positive it's no influence on people I know (and I am also positive that most people want to be thin, even if they aren't). It's usually social ideas of attractiveness -- which still means thin -- plus your social circle that dictates whether fat is acceptable, I think, so if anything more people being fat means it's more okay (not that people want to be, but they don't feel as freakish to be a little overweight as I think people did in, say, the '80s). Don't think HAES plays any role. (What I think it does in some cases (which is bad) is encourage some who are already overweight to think they have no control over it and shouldn't try to lose weight.)I have seen so much stuff on Facebook about "men want meat, not bones" or similar stuff. It seems OK to shame slimmer people, but you say boo to a heavier person you're seen as a bad person. How many people have told me in the last few months "Is that all you're having for lunch?" or "You have lost TOO much weight" but wouldn't dream of saying to an obese person "Are you eating ALL of that for lunch?" or "You've gained too much weight". :-(
Again, people don't say stuff directly to fat people when being polite, because they assume (correctly) that the fat person thinks it is bad to be fat already. When I was fat I was super aware of not eating much in front of people because they could judge me and would (I think this was from my own head, largely -- no one said anything -- but it was some kind of social thing I got). Not saying this is bad, btw. Being normal weight, I'm much more comfortable in being able to eat what I want (although I'm still paranoid that people might think "oh, she's going to get fat again"). I get comments now that some would apparently take as "shaming" -- including "don't get to thin" -- but since I know the dominant ideal in my social circle/culture is thin, I tend to perceive these as compliments or harmless buttering me up (I am not "so thin," not even close).
The men like meat thing, while offensive IMO too and while I think thinner women (or simply less curvy women) should call it out, and I call it out too as inappropriate, reads to me like people trying to convince themselves that it's okay to be a bit heavy. It doesn't change the certainty in my mind that most people still think it's better to be thinner.
I don't really see people commenting on each other's meals, so always wonder where this happens, as it comes across as extremely rude and inappropriate to me, violating social norms unless it's a relative or something. (Asking questions about food choices in an interested way would be different and I wonder if some misinterpret this or start the conversation -- I know many who like to go on about their special diets -- and then get mad if they get asked.)
As for over-the-top comments on physical appearance, I really think those read as socially inappropriate and to me they would be rare (most are nervous to say anything). (I found out one co-worker asked if I was sick before saying anything which seems weird to me but I understand the worry about saying "good job" and finding out the weight loss was unintentional or related to something bad.) I have gotten a bunch from our cleaning woman at work (who is Polish) and it always struck me as a sign of a very different culture, so I gave her a pass for some stuff that would be really rude in the US (although it was mostly positive, sometimes in a superbackhanded way, though, and not always about weight, she comments on my hair too).
Thinking back, when I was in college a dorm-mate went from normal to worryingly thin (this was the late '80s) and we asked her if she was okay and stuff like that and she got annoyed, but it wasn't thin shaming at all and had nothing to do with thinking she looked bad -- it was genuine worry. Even when I think it's way off-base I'd understand genuine worry, especially from a friend or relative. (And I know from others that they've suspected a co-worker of having a problem with what sounded like good reasons and yet felt like it would be wrong to say anything and didn't, so I don't really think that it's considered much more okay to comment when someone is too thin. I do think comments like "you are so skinny lately!" may just be awkward ways to compliment that some take as insulting (I've taken the same as positive), and "jeez, do you always have to be so strict" can be rude ways to complain if someone is perceived as interfering with other's fun (as if can't do something until gets the workout in or can't go to a desired restaurant). I think you'd get the latter if you were fat and refused to do something on that basis too, though -- I think it's more humans being self-absorbed than an effort to shame.1 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »obiwankendrobi wrote: »I'm indifferent. Not my body, not my problem. If someone is completely happy being fat, then good for them. If anyone has a problem with someone being happy with their fat, then they really need to take a look at their lives and think about why they have a problem with it and why they feel the need to tear someone down.
I'd like to step in here and make a point that there a discussion going on about the movement, not about individuals.
I have a huge problem with obesity as a societal issue, because it is a drain on society and we aren't effectively addressing it. The Fat Acceptance Movement actively promotes obesity. I don't have a problem with any individual obese people.
I have a huge problem with a movement that glorifies and promotes unhealthy behaviors among its members and ultimately wants civil rights protection for obesity.
I don't have a problem with my next door neighbor or the grocery store cashier with the cool purple hair.
There is a difference.
Yep, excellent distinction that apparently some aren't seeing (I suspect from not really reading the discussion).2 -
Gallowmere1984 wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »obiwankendrobi wrote: »I'm indifferent. Not my body, not my problem. If someone is completely happy being fat, then good for them. If anyone has a problem with someone being happy with their fat, then they really need to take a look at their lives and think about why they have a problem with it and why they feel the need to tear someone down.
I'd like to step in here and make a point that there a discussion going on about the movement, not about individuals.
I have a huge problem with obesity as a societal issue, because it is a drain on society and we aren't effectively addressing it. The Fat Acceptance Movement promotes actively promotes obesity. I don't have a problem with any individual obese people.
I have a huge problem with a movement that glorifies and promotes unhealthy behaviors among its members that ultimately wants civil rights protection for obesity.
I don't have a problem with my next door neighbor or the grocery store cashier with the cool purple hair.
There is a difference.
I view it much the same as drug users who are in extremely deep. It's none of my business what they put in their bodies on an individual level, but I think we can all agree that a nation consisting of 40+% apathetic smackheads would be a problem, especially if they suddenly became a protected class.
This I see as different from GottaBurnEm's comment. I do think the obesity rate is a social problem -- obesity causes health problems and if children are increasingly obese that is especially worrisome.
I don't think it causes nearly the same kinds of problems or is much similar to people being junkies. People who are overweight and obese can still be productive members of society, and there's no related crime, etc.0 -
What I would personally love to see, is a bunch of prominent bodybuilders completely hijack the HAES movement.
Reasons:
1) because most of them range between overweight and morbidly obese by the BMI scale, so it fits.
2) because most high end BB offseason diets look gluttonous as hell.
3) because it would *kitten* all over the HAES narrative.
4) because they'd end up dropping a deuce all over their own principles when the fat ones came out against it.
5) because hilarious.11 -
Gallowmere1984 wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »obiwankendrobi wrote: »I'm indifferent. Not my body, not my problem. If someone is completely happy being fat, then good for them. If anyone has a problem with someone being happy with their fat, then they really need to take a look at their lives and think about why they have a problem with it and why they feel the need to tear someone down.
I'd like to step in here and make a point that there a discussion going on about the movement, not about individuals.
I have a huge problem with obesity as a societal issue, because it is a drain on society and we aren't effectively addressing it. The Fat Acceptance Movement promotes actively promotes obesity. I don't have a problem with any individual obese people.
I have a huge problem with a movement that glorifies and promotes unhealthy behaviors among its members that ultimately wants civil rights protection for obesity.
I don't have a problem with my next door neighbor or the grocery store cashier with the cool purple hair.
There is a difference.
I view it much the same as drug users who are in extremely deep. It's none of my business what they put in their bodies on an individual level, but I think we can all agree that a nation consisting of 40+% apathetic smackheads would be a problem, especially if they suddenly became a protected class.
Yes, and I would even go a step further: My personal observation is that the normalization of obesity has become so widespread that overweight is now considered to be a healthy weight. As most everyone here knows, I have type 1 diabetes... not related to obesity. It used to be that I met the clinical criteria for type 2 diabetes as well. In fact, I was diagnosed with type 2 diabetes as a teenager after having type 1 diabetes for a few years. I know more about type 1 diabetes than most physicians, and have a very good understanding of type 2 diabetes (better than a lot of physicians, perhaps not most). I am very open about my health issues and am always willing to discuss.
Often, I'm having a conversation and I mention that most type 2's have diabetes simply because they are overweight or obese. Nearly every time, the response is, "<My relative, friend, or I> have type 2 diabetes and isn't/am not fat." It may be a defensive response because they are thinking, often subconsciously, that the status of being overweight or obese is a negative trait. It isn't positive or negative, it is neutral... it's just a fact of that person's stats. On the other hand, it is more relevant that being overweight or obese is subjectively determined. They look at someone (or they are someone) who, as far as I can tell, is noticeably overweight. Yet the bar for what is perceived to be overweight has shifted so far upwards that suddenly carrying 50 lbs. too much is considered normal and healthy.
In fact, I get the same thing from others. I'm open with people I know about trying to lose weight. As that has happened over the past few years, I get responses more and more often about how good I look. About 25-30 lbs. ago, I started getting responses that I should stop trying to lose. Some people were genuinely concerned that I'm losing too much. Their view of what is healthy vs. unhealthy considers what is a truly healthy weight to be underweight; and what is overweight to be healthy. I can't help but think that these movements have had an effect to socially normalize being overweight and obese.2 -
Gallowmere1984 wrote: »What I would personally love to see, is a bunch of prominent bodybuilders completely hijack the HAES movement.
Was already done on the Twitter hashtag #notyourgoodfatty - the website of the same name was created by someone to counter their lying *kitten*.0 -
CipherZero wrote: »Gallowmere1984 wrote: »What I would personally love to see, is a bunch of prominent bodybuilders completely hijack the HAES movement.
Was already done on the Twitter hashtag #notyourgoodfatty - the website of the same name was created by someone to counter their lying *kitten*.
The fact that it's on Twitter would explain why I missed it.1 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »obiwankendrobi wrote: »I'm indifferent. Not my body, not my problem. If someone is completely happy being fat, then good for them. If anyone has a problem with someone being happy with their fat, then they really need to take a look at their lives and think about why they have a problem with it and why they feel the need to tear someone down.
I'd like to step in here and make a point that there a discussion going on about the movement, not about individuals.
I have a huge problem with obesity as a societal issue, because it is a drain on society and we aren't effectively addressing it. The Fat Acceptance Movement actively promotes obesity. I don't have a problem with any individual obese people.
I have a huge problem with a movement that glorifies and promotes unhealthy behaviors among its members and ultimately wants civil rights protection for obesity.
I don't have a problem with my next door neighbor or the grocery store cashier with the cool purple hair.
There is a difference.
On civil rights...I agree there should not be a need for "special rights" for anyone...they should be the same for us all. The problem is...people take it upon themselves to decide who is "worthy" of being treated equally.
However...we know prejudices exist...they exist in forms of discriminations against many including those that are obese. No laws can stop it...maybe only slow it down a bit. I am sure that there are some people that have been denied job/promotions in the work place because of their size. Possibly there have been obese people denied housing because they are obese.
Sadly, no matter what laws that exist, people seem to be able to find a way around them if they are bigoted against any one group of people.
You can't legislate out every bias, though. There's also a statistic showing that short men don't get hired as often.
Are they to be granted protection under the law too? At least their height is something that can never be changed. Obesity is a solvable problem.
That's my biggest issue with having any sort of civil rights status given to obese people. It's a self-inflicted condition. Of course there are mitigating factors, but they can be addressed, and we have not properly addressed them as a society. Passing a law granting them special privilege while they remain obese instead of getting to the root of the cause of their obesity and addressing and solving that is doing them a disservice.3 -
midwesterner85 wrote: »Gallowmere1984 wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »obiwankendrobi wrote: »I'm indifferent. Not my body, not my problem. If someone is completely happy being fat, then good for them. If anyone has a problem with someone being happy with their fat, then they really need to take a look at their lives and think about why they have a problem with it and why they feel the need to tear someone down.
I'd like to step in here and make a point that there a discussion going on about the movement, not about individuals.
I have a huge problem with obesity as a societal issue, because it is a drain on society and we aren't effectively addressing it. The Fat Acceptance Movement promotes actively promotes obesity. I don't have a problem with any individual obese people.
I have a huge problem with a movement that glorifies and promotes unhealthy behaviors among its members that ultimately wants civil rights protection for obesity.
I don't have a problem with my next door neighbor or the grocery store cashier with the cool purple hair.
There is a difference.
In fact, I get the same thing from others. I'm open with people I know about trying to lose weight. As that has happened over the past few years, I get responses more and more often about how good I look. About 25-30 lbs. ago, I started getting responses that I should stop trying to lose. Some people were genuinely concerned that I'm losing too much. Their view of what is healthy vs. unhealthy considers what is a truly healthy weight to be underweight; and what is overweight to be healthy. I can't help but think that these movements have had an effect to socially normalize being overweight and obese.
I honestly don't think the movements have had much to do with normalizing overweight as a "healthy" look - I think that's much more based upon your social circle and the demographics in your area. In my neighborhood and at my gym, the women my age generally are as slim or slimmer than me, so I wouldn't feel comfortable being heavier than I am. My extended family is all overweight/obese, but they live in areas and are friends with people who are also overweight and obese, so it seems normal. While I feel social pressure to be active and maintain a certain weight, they feel social pressure to maintain their lifestyles and relationships, i.e. pizza night with their friends instead of hitting the gym. My morbidly obese SIL calls my overweight husband "skinny" because compared to her, he is much smaller. Knowing my relatives, I bet most have never even heard of FAM or HAES.0 -
seekingdaintiness wrote: »These threads are alwasy a kitten storm. yes I types kitten ahead of the censors. lol
Fact - I am no healthier for losing weight because my weight NEVER made me unhealthy. It's amazing how many people get super angry with me and want me to not believe my own personal experience, backed up with medical records. It's amazing how many doctors would get visibly angry when they would test me for all the "fat person" illnesses and couldn't find any. My real illnesses have been present since birth and it is very true that doctors have never had any interest in treating them because they were too busy looking for reasons to be mad at me for being fat.
I have been on this stupid "weight loss journey" for social acceptance, nothing more, because people are viciously, hatefully cruel to fat people, have called me names you wouldn't believe, told me to die or kill myself, that I shouldn't exist, shouldn't do anything, shouldn't eat at all, shouldn't be allowed to have an opinion, and things I can't say here because they would all be "kittened" out. None of these things made me want to do anything more than lock myself in my bedroom and cry. Why do people think these things "encourage people to lose weight"?
I suppose in a sense it is true - eventually they pushed me into an eating disorder because I hated myself. I have not lost weight healthily and am in much worse shape now than when I was fat.
As mentioned earlier you are one person. Also you look relatively young, most likely the effects just had not manifested themselves in you yet.
If you do some research, the effects of virtually all illnesses, diseases, orthopedic problems, etc are made worse by excess weight.3 -
chocolate_owl wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »Gallowmere1984 wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »obiwankendrobi wrote: »I'm indifferent. Not my body, not my problem. If someone is completely happy being fat, then good for them. If anyone has a problem with someone being happy with their fat, then they really need to take a look at their lives and think about why they have a problem with it and why they feel the need to tear someone down.
I'd like to step in here and make a point that there a discussion going on about the movement, not about individuals.
I have a huge problem with obesity as a societal issue, because it is a drain on society and we aren't effectively addressing it. The Fat Acceptance Movement promotes actively promotes obesity. I don't have a problem with any individual obese people.
I have a huge problem with a movement that glorifies and promotes unhealthy behaviors among its members that ultimately wants civil rights protection for obesity.
I don't have a problem with my next door neighbor or the grocery store cashier with the cool purple hair.
There is a difference.
In fact, I get the same thing from others. I'm open with people I know about trying to lose weight. As that has happened over the past few years, I get responses more and more often about how good I look. About 25-30 lbs. ago, I started getting responses that I should stop trying to lose. Some people were genuinely concerned that I'm losing too much. Their view of what is healthy vs. unhealthy considers what is a truly healthy weight to be underweight; and what is overweight to be healthy. I can't help but think that these movements have had an effect to socially normalize being overweight and obese.
I honestly don't think the movements have had much to do with normalizing overweight as a "healthy" look - I think that's much more based upon your social circle and the demographics in your area. In my neighborhood and at my gym, the women my age generally are as slim or slimmer than me, so I wouldn't feel comfortable being heavier than I am. My extended family is all overweight/obese, but they live in areas and are friends with people who are also overweight and obese, so it seems normal. While I feel social pressure to be active and maintain a certain weight, they feel social pressure to maintain their lifestyles and relationships, i.e. pizza night with their friends instead of hitting the gym. My morbidly obese SIL calls my overweight husband "skinny" because compared to her, he is much smaller. Knowing my relatives, I bet most have never even heard of FAM or HAES.
Yep -- this is what I was trying to say, but put much better. (My neighborhood and social circle are also mostly people of normal weight and thin and those overweight aren't much overweight.)0 -
seekingdaintiness wrote: »These threads are alwasy a kitten storm. yes I types kitten ahead of the censors. lol
Fact - I am no healthier for losing weight because my weight NEVER made me unhealthy. It's amazing how many people get super angry with me and want me to not believe my own personal experience, backed up with medical records. It's amazing how many doctors would get visibly angry when they would test me for all the "fat person" illnesses and couldn't find any. My real illnesses have been present since birth and it is very true that doctors have never had any interest in treating them because they were too busy looking for reasons to be mad at me for being fat.
I have been on this stupid "weight loss journey" for social acceptance, nothing more, because people are viciously, hatefully cruel to fat people, have called me names you wouldn't believe, told me to die or kill myself, that I shouldn't exist, shouldn't do anything, shouldn't eat at all, shouldn't be allowed to have an opinion, and things I can't say here because they would all be "kittened" out. None of these things made me want to do anything more than lock myself in my bedroom and cry. Why do people think these things "encourage people to lose weight"?
I suppose in a sense it is true - eventually they pushed me into an eating disorder because I hated myself. I have not lost weight healthily and am in much worse shape now than when I was fat.
135 lbs down? You're healthier. You might not want to admit it, or you might not realize it, but you are, in fact, healthier.
That is less work being placed on your heart, and circulatory system.. Your risk for type II diabetes has decreased. These are just the starter items.5 -
seekingdaintiness wrote: »These threads are alwasy a kitten storm. yes I types kitten ahead of the censors. lol
Fact - I am no healthier for losing weight because my weight NEVER made me unhealthy. It's amazing how many people get super angry with me and want me to not believe my own personal experience, backed up with medical records. It's amazing how many doctors would get visibly angry when they would test me for all the "fat person" illnesses and couldn't find any. My real illnesses have been present since birth and it is very true that doctors have never had any interest in treating them because they were too busy looking for reasons to be mad at me for being fat.
I have been on this stupid "weight loss journey" for social acceptance, nothing more, because people are viciously, hatefully cruel to fat people, have called me names you wouldn't believe, told me to die or kill myself, that I shouldn't exist, shouldn't do anything, shouldn't eat at all, shouldn't be allowed to have an opinion, and things I can't say here because they would all be "kittened" out. None of these things made me want to do anything more than lock myself in my bedroom and cry. Why do people think these things "encourage people to lose weight"?
I suppose in a sense it is true - eventually they pushed me into an eating disorder because I hated myself. I have not lost weight healthily and am in much worse shape now than when I was fat.
There aren't "fat person" illnesses. There are, however, a myriad of significant life threatening illnesses and conditions where your chance of acquiring them goes through the roof if you are obese. Saying "well I was fat and I didn't have those illnesses" is some sort of misunderstanding of statistics. You not having diabetes while obese does NOT at all mean that the chances of becoming diabetic aren't HUGELY magnified by being obese. If 98% of morbidly obese people become type-II diabetic over 10 years of being morbidly obese that means that 2% don't. Of those 2% perhaps 50% do after another 5 years...which means that 50% of those don't.
Being healthy isn't a reference to what diseases or illnesses you have at the moment, its a reference to the state of your body and how likely you are to die early or become ill. Someone who is morbidly obese is not healthy because statistically speaking they are likely to come down with a myriad of different debilitating conditions that will shorten their life span. If an olympic athlete has the flu they are still a healthy person. If a morbidly obese person doesn't have diabetes that doesn't mean they are healthy.
If you lost over a hundred pounds you have most definately improved your health because you have improved the statistical likelyhood that you won't die early to debilitating conditions or illnesses. So congratulations.
Now as for you not losing the weight healthily which I assume means you undernourished, made yourself malnourished or lost significant muscle mass then those are things that can increase your risk for problems and those things will make you less healthy sure. But its not because you weigh less that that is true.5 -
Some of us are genetically supposed to be on the higher end of the bmi scale (some of us are supposed to be boney on the other end), if you spend time around a farm you understand how much genetics plays into the size of various animals that are all fed on the same schedule, etc. MY "healthy" looks different from YOUR "healthy", it should be about feeling your best (wherever you have the most energy and vitality) it should not be about fitting into some mold or ideal. It should be about having a healthy relationship with food and yourself. Literally every member of my family has been 30-50+ lbs overweight going back more than 3 generations (that I have pictures of). Nobody died before the age of 84 yrs old except an aunt who died in a car wreck. I know that my "healthy" is about 30-35 lbs more than what the bmi chart says is "healthy" (I once starved myself to get into that "healthy" range and made myself sick). That's what I'm shooting for, I could really careless what anyone here has to say about it either as I know what is healthy for me. YOU decide for YOU (not anyone else-you aren't living in their body).1
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GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »obiwankendrobi wrote: »I'm indifferent. Not my body, not my problem. If someone is completely happy being fat, then good for them. If anyone has a problem with someone being happy with their fat, then they really need to take a look at their lives and think about why they have a problem with it and why they feel the need to tear someone down.
I'd like to step in here and make a point that there a discussion going on about the movement, not about individuals.
I have a huge problem with obesity as a societal issue, because it is a drain on society and we aren't effectively addressing it. The Fat Acceptance Movement actively promotes obesity. I don't have a problem with any individual obese people.
I have a huge problem with a movement that glorifies and promotes unhealthy behaviors among its members and ultimately wants civil rights protection for obesity.
I don't have a problem with my next door neighbor or the grocery store cashier with the cool purple hair.
There is a difference.
On civil rights...I agree there should not be a need for "special rights" for anyone...they should be the same for us all. The problem is...people take it upon themselves to decide who is "worthy" of being treated equally.
However...we know prejudices exist...they exist in forms of discriminations against many including those that are obese. No laws can stop it...maybe only slow it down a bit. I am sure that there are some people that have been denied job/promotions in the work place because of their size. Possibly there have been obese people denied housing because they are obese.
Sadly, no matter what laws that exist, people seem to be able to find a way around them if they are bigoted against any one group of people.
You can't legislate out every bias, though. There's also a statistic showing that short men don't get hired as often.
Are they to be granted protection under the law too? At least their height is something that can never be changed. Obesity is a solvable problem.
That's my biggest issue with having any sort of civil rights status given to obese people. It's a self-inflicted condition. Of course there are mitigating factors, but they can be addressed, and we have not properly addressed them as a society. Passing a law granting them special privilege while they remain obese instead of getting to the root of the cause of their obesity and addressing and solving that is doing them a disservice.
Consistent research shows that in job interviews, people with curly hair are taken less seriously.
Do I ask for special protection, or quotas or whatnot? No - I straighten my hair before the interview.3 -
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rkhazard432 wrote: »Some of us are genetically supposed to be on the higher end of the bmi scale (some of us are supposed to be boney on the other end), if you spend time around a farm you understand how much genetics plays into the size of various animals that are all fed on the same schedule, etc. MY "healthy" looks different from YOUR "healthy", it should be about feeling your best (wherever you have the most energy and vitality) it should not be about fitting into some mold or ideal. It should be about having a healthy relationship with food and yourself. Literally every member of my family has been 30-50+ lbs overweight going back more than 3 generations (that I have pictures of). Nobody died before the age of 84 yrs old except an aunt who died in a car wreck. I know that my "healthy" is about 30-35 lbs more than what the bmi chart says is "healthy" (I once starved myself to get into that "healthy" range and made myself sick). That's what I'm shooting for, I could really careless what anyone here has to say about it either as I know what is healthy for me. YOU decide for YOU (not anyone else-you aren't living in their body).
No one is genetically determined to being 30-50 pounds overweight into an overweight BMI.
Read this:
https://directorsblog.nih.gov/2015/02/19/genetic-studies-yield-new-insights-into-obesity/But we’re pushing the research needle in the right direction. We know that a normal-sized person who has 104 BMI-increasing genetic markers will on average be 20-plus pounds heavier than someone of a similar build who has less than 78 BMI-increasing genetic markers.
That's not even talking being out of the range of a normal BMI.
Also:Previous studies suggest that about 50 percent of BMI is genetic. Elizabeth Speliotes, a geneticist-physician at the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor, and her army of colleagues examined the genomes of more than 339,000 individuals and discovered 97 sites in the genome that influence obesity, of which 56 were new discoveries. The greater the number of these BMI-boosting sites a person carries, the greater their BMI will tend to be—but this is not destiny. Genetic risk factors are not predetermining, they are predisposing.5 -
I just look at overweight/obesity like this. In 2013, the American Medical Association decided that obesity is a disease. In my mind, that makes it a condition which is between a person and their medical care team. Teasing or shaming a person with a disease would be despicable. Just as it would be with someone with cancer, mental illness or any other chronic condition.
Since I have no medical degree, it's none of my business. I can speak only from my own experience and wish them well on their journey through life.6 -
Aaron_K123 wrote: »JstTheWayIam wrote: »And it's not just about calories, the food industry is willing to sell cancer causing substances wrapped in sugar to kids in order to make an extra penny on the dollar.
That is some FoodBabe/Mercola level b.s. right there. Can you provide one example of a product currently on shelves marketed towards children that contains a KNOWN group 1 carcinogen (ie not a group 2,3 or 4)? Can you even name one that is group 2A or 2B that isn't something like bacon? (which you better not be complaining about bacon man). Not only that but at levels significantly above what is in everything else to actually be concerned (keep in mind I could list off some class 1 known carcinogens present in fruit).
I just don't get people who say stuff like this. If you genuinely believed there was a KNOWN carcinogen being sold to kids in a grocery store right now that was going to ACTIVELY cause them to develop cancer then why aren't you in that store ripping it off the shelf?
You can read this if you like...
http://www.ecowatch.com/5-reasons-high-fructose-corn-syrup-will-kill-you-1882106389.html
Not to mention that Coke and Pepsi have admitted there products contain cancer causing substance... Not to mention obesity, diabetes among other health issues, in children.
Are you actually going to sit there and try to defend their right to market soda, knowing how terrible it is for you, to kids.
Why on earth would someone try to defend these companies that don't give a damn about you or your health, by trying ever so lamely, to split hairs with me.
You can find articles online that site studies blaming soda for over 184000 deaths each year.
And another thing, do you honestly think you know more than Dr Mercola or Dr Greger, or Dr Haymen or Dr Furman.
Drink your soda... Swim in it for all I care. It's your right to let these companies take advantage of you if you want to be a fool.2 -
rkhazard432 wrote: »Some of us are genetically supposed to be on the higher end of the bmi scale (some of us are supposed to be boney on the other end), if you spend time around a farm you understand how much genetics plays into the size of various animals that are all fed on the same schedule, etc. MY "healthy" looks different from YOUR "healthy", it should be about feeling your best (wherever you have the most energy and vitality) it should not be about fitting into some mold or ideal. It should be about having a healthy relationship with food and yourself. Literally every member of my family has been 30-50+ lbs overweight going back more than 3 generations (that I have pictures of). Nobody died before the age of 84 yrs old except an aunt who died in a car wreck. I know that my "healthy" is about 30-35 lbs more than what the bmi chart says is "healthy" (I once starved myself to get into that "healthy" range and made myself sick). That's what I'm shooting for, I could really careless what anyone here has to say about it either as I know what is healthy for me. YOU decide for YOU (not anyone else-you aren't living in their body).
Your lifestyle dictates your size. Everyone can loose weight. There are no genes or medical conditions that make you absorb calories from thin air. You are right about the bad relationship with food though. That is what makes a person overweight.8 -
I just look at overweight/obesity like this. In 2013, the American Medical Association decided that obesity is a disease. In my mind, that makes it a condition which is between a person and their medical care team. Teasing or shaming a person with a disease would be despicable. Just as it would be with someone with cancer, mental illness or any other chronic condition.
Since I have no medical degree, it's none of my business. I can speak only from my own experience and wish them well on their journey through life.
Just to clarify: you understand this thread is not about fat shaming and the alternative to the "fat acceptance movement" is not fat shaming, right?
I feel like a lot of posters are just dropping in, not reading the thread, and either accusing others of being in favor of "fat shaming" or accusing them of encouraging obesity/thinking obesity is not a health issue when for the most part neither is true.
Oh, and whether or not the AMA calls "obesity" a disease (which mainly has to do with recognizing that it's terrible for your health" is not what makes fat shaming wrong. Fat shaming was wrong before 2013 too, of course.6 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »I just look at overweight/obesity like this. In 2013, the American Medical Association decided that obesity is a disease. In my mind, that makes it a condition which is between a person and their medical care team. Teasing or shaming a person with a disease would be despicable. Just as it would be with someone with cancer, mental illness or any other chronic condition.
Since I have no medical degree, it's none of my business. I can speak only from my own experience and wish them well on their journey through life.
Just to clarify: you understand this thread is not about fat shaming and the alternative to the "fat acceptance movement" is not fat shaming, right?
I feel like a lot of posters are just dropping in, not reading the thread, and either accusing others of being in favor of "fat shaming" or accusing them of encouraging obesity/thinking obesity is not a health issue when for the most part neither is true.
Oh, and whether or not the AMA calls "obesity" a disease (which mainly has to do with recognizing that it's terrible for your health" is not what makes fat shaming wrong. Fat shaming was wrong before 2013 too, of course.
Ehhh, not gonna lie, if it weren't for "fat shaming", I'd have never gotten my *kitten* together, and I'd probably be north of 300 lbs. by now. Some really need that harsh, nasty wake-up call, but the tricky part is that it needs to come from someone the obese person respects. Some random doing it doesn't seem to change anything; at least it didn't for me. However, once I got it from both my wife at the time, and a powerlifter that I truly respect, it served as a real wake up call,11 -
JstTheWayIam wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »JstTheWayIam wrote: »And it's not just about calories, the food industry is willing to sell cancer causing substances wrapped in sugar to kids in order to make an extra penny on the dollar.
That is some FoodBabe/Mercola level b.s. right there. Can you provide one example of a product currently on shelves marketed towards children that contains a KNOWN group 1 carcinogen (ie not a group 2,3 or 4)? Can you even name one that is group 2A or 2B that isn't something like bacon? (which you better not be complaining about bacon man). Not only that but at levels significantly above what is in everything else to actually be concerned (keep in mind I could list off some class 1 known carcinogens present in fruit).
I just don't get people who say stuff like this. If you genuinely believed there was a KNOWN carcinogen being sold to kids in a grocery store right now that was going to ACTIVELY cause them to develop cancer then why aren't you in that store ripping it off the shelf?
You can read this if you like...
http://www.ecowatch.com/5-reasons-high-fructose-corn-syrup-will-kill-you-1882106389.html
Not to mention that Coke and Pepsi have admitted there products contain cancer causing substance... Not to mention obesity, diabetes among other health issues, in children.
Are you actually going to sit there and try to defend their right to market soda, knowing how terrible it is for you, to kids.
Why on earth would someone try to defend these companies that don't give a damn about you or your health, by trying ever so lamely, to split hairs with me.
You can find articles online that site studies blaming soda for over 184000 deaths each year.
And another thing, do you honestly think you know more than Dr Mercola or Dr Greger, or Dr Haymen or Dr Furman.
Drink your soda... Swim in it for all I care. It's your right to let these companies take advantage of you if you want to be a fool.
Oh FFS.
Yes, Aaron knows more than those quacks you listed, and unlike them, he's not using his PhD to try to sell you something.
Soda does not cause cancer. Go find real, non-quack, non-debunked, peer-reviewed sources.
A single full-sugar soda in moderation isn't going to give a kid diabetes. A parent who lets their kid drink 8 cans a day is negligent in their parenting duties. It's not Coke or Pepsi's fault if people overconsume their products. Personal responsibility, anyone?34 -
chocolate_owl wrote: »JstTheWayIam wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »JstTheWayIam wrote: »And it's not just about calories, the food industry is willing to sell cancer causing substances wrapped in sugar to kids in order to make an extra penny on the dollar.
That is some FoodBabe/Mercola level b.s. right there. Can you provide one example of a product currently on shelves marketed towards children that contains a KNOWN group 1 carcinogen (ie not a group 2,3 or 4)? Can you even name one that is group 2A or 2B that isn't something like bacon? (which you better not be complaining about bacon man). Not only that but at levels significantly above what is in everything else to actually be concerned (keep in mind I could list off some class 1 known carcinogens present in fruit).
I just don't get people who say stuff like this. If you genuinely believed there was a KNOWN carcinogen being sold to kids in a grocery store right now that was going to ACTIVELY cause them to develop cancer then why aren't you in that store ripping it off the shelf?
You can read this if you like...
http://www.ecowatch.com/5-reasons-high-fructose-corn-syrup-will-kill-you-1882106389.html
Not to mention that Coke and Pepsi have admitted there products contain cancer causing substance... Not to mention obesity, diabetes among other health issues, in children.
Are you actually going to sit there and try to defend their right to market soda, knowing how terrible it is for you, to kids.
Why on earth would someone try to defend these companies that don't give a damn about you or your health, by trying ever so lamely, to split hairs with me.
You can find articles online that site studies blaming soda for over 184000 deaths each year.
And another thing, do you honestly think you know more than Dr Mercola or Dr Greger, or Dr Haymen or Dr Furman.
Drink your soda... Swim in it for all I care. It's your right to let these companies take advantage of you if you want to be a fool.
Oh FFS.
Yes, Aaron knows more than those quacks you listed, and unlike them, he's not using his PhD to try to sell you something.
Soda does not cause cancer. Go find real, non-quack, non-debunked, peer-reviewed sources.
A single full-sugar soda in moderation isn't going to give a kid diabetes. A parent who lets their kid drink 8 cans a day is negligent in their parenting duties. It's not Coke or Pepsi's fault if people overconsume their products. Personal responsibility, anyone?
Hi
Not to mention that anything is harmful if consumed to excess. Even Water3 -
Gallowmere1984 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »I just look at overweight/obesity like this. In 2013, the American Medical Association decided that obesity is a disease. In my mind, that makes it a condition which is between a person and their medical care team. Teasing or shaming a person with a disease would be despicable. Just as it would be with someone with cancer, mental illness or any other chronic condition.
Since I have no medical degree, it's none of my business. I can speak only from my own experience and wish them well on their journey through life.
Just to clarify: you understand this thread is not about fat shaming and the alternative to the "fat acceptance movement" is not fat shaming, right?
I feel like a lot of posters are just dropping in, not reading the thread, and either accusing others of being in favor of "fat shaming" or accusing them of encouraging obesity/thinking obesity is not a health issue when for the most part neither is true.
Oh, and whether or not the AMA calls "obesity" a disease (which mainly has to do with recognizing that it's terrible for your health" is not what makes fat shaming wrong. Fat shaming was wrong before 2013 too, of course.
Ehhh, not gonna lie, if it weren't for "fat shaming", I'd have never gotten my *kitten* together, and I'd probably be north of 300 lbs. by now. Some really need that harsh, nasty wake-up call, but the tricky part is that it needs to come from someone the obese person respects. Some random doing it doesn't seem to change anything; at least it didn't for me. However, once I got it from both my wife at the time, and a powerlifter that I truly respect, it served as a real wake up call,
Someone else "shaming" me wouldn't have worked for me at all -- I was already caught up in self-hatred and dislike of my body from before I was even overweight and just felt more shame and like a failure for getting overweight. Getting over that (which had more to do with my overall approach to life) is what made me realize I wasn't a failure and (related) could control my body (i.e., get fit, lose weight). Deciding that I should be healthy and fit even if I didn't like my weight (since I still had trouble really believing weight loss would work for me) is what helped get me over that -- that and realizing that in other areas of life I was a competent, successful person who could figure stuff out, so why not this. Getting out of the shame and defeatist thing and taking charge (with the idea that I would be as fit and healthy as possible, no matter what happened with my weight and I would understand how weight loss and fitness worked) is what got me able to do what I needed to do to lose weight. And of course I lost weight and even before I was a weight I liked the fact I was using my body to do things and it was responding and I was back in control made me much more body positive (which I think was extremely helpful, not ever something that made me think "I want to stay obese" -- I find that idea weird).
Of course, I never felt like being fat was normal or acceptable when I was fat. In the subculture I am in, that people can seems hard to believe (especially for a woman). I wish I didn't so strongly accept the cultural message that fat is failure, thin is good, because I don't think it is especially helpful for me personally in staying fit.
Also, I do get how being told you are a loser or whatever can be motivating, it has been for me in other areas, but if someone is already at the point where they really believe it, are struggling hard with a total lack of esteem and feelings of self-worth, then being told that is IMO more likely to lead to defeatism and just thinking you can never have anything else, so might as well give up.4 -
JstTheWayIam wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »JstTheWayIam wrote: »And it's not just about calories, the food industry is willing to sell cancer causing substances wrapped in sugar to kids in order to make an extra penny on the dollar.
That is some FoodBabe/Mercola level b.s. right there. Can you provide one example of a product currently on shelves marketed towards children that contains a KNOWN group 1 carcinogen (ie not a group 2,3 or 4)? Can you even name one that is group 2A or 2B that isn't something like bacon? (which you better not be complaining about bacon man). Not only that but at levels significantly above what is in everything else to actually be concerned (keep in mind I could list off some class 1 known carcinogens present in fruit).
I just don't get people who say stuff like this. If you genuinely believed there was a KNOWN carcinogen being sold to kids in a grocery store right now that was going to ACTIVELY cause them to develop cancer then why aren't you in that store ripping it off the shelf?
You can read this if you like...
http://www.ecowatch.com/5-reasons-high-fructose-corn-syrup-will-kill-you-1882106389.html
Not to mention that Coke and Pepsi have admitted there products contain cancer causing substance... Not to mention obesity, diabetes among other health issues, in children.
Are you actually going to sit there and try to defend their right to market soda, knowing how terrible it is for you, to kids.
Why on earth would someone try to defend these companies that don't give a damn about you or your health, by trying ever so lamely, to split hairs with me.
You can find articles online that site studies blaming soda for over 184000 deaths each year.
And another thing, do you honestly think you know more than Dr Mercola or Dr Greger, or Dr Haymen or Dr Furman.
Drink your soda... Swim in it for all I care. It's your right to let these companies take advantage of you if you want to be a fool.
When you say that Coca-Cola and Pepsi have admitted their products contain a substance that causes cancer, what admission are you referring to?
Also, I'm not the person that this question was addressed to, but Dr. Mercola is an HIV-denialist who thinks that sunscreen causes cancer, microwaving makes food harmful, and that homeopathy works. I have no idea if I'm smarter than him, but I'm certainly better informed.
I can find articles online telling me that Pizzagate is a real thing and that the Illumanati are controlling our minds in league with the lizardpeople from space. The fact that you can find articles discussing something online is absolutely meaningless.14 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »Gallowmere1984 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »I just look at overweight/obesity like this. In 2013, the American Medical Association decided that obesity is a disease. In my mind, that makes it a condition which is between a person and their medical care team. Teasing or shaming a person with a disease would be despicable. Just as it would be with someone with cancer, mental illness or any other chronic condition.
Since I have no medical degree, it's none of my business. I can speak only from my own experience and wish them well on their journey through life.
Just to clarify: you understand this thread is not about fat shaming and the alternative to the "fat acceptance movement" is not fat shaming, right?
I feel like a lot of posters are just dropping in, not reading the thread, and either accusing others of being in favor of "fat shaming" or accusing them of encouraging obesity/thinking obesity is not a health issue when for the most part neither is true.
Oh, and whether or not the AMA calls "obesity" a disease (which mainly has to do with recognizing that it's terrible for your health" is not what makes fat shaming wrong. Fat shaming was wrong before 2013 too, of course.
Ehhh, not gonna lie, if it weren't for "fat shaming", I'd have never gotten my *kitten* together, and I'd probably be north of 300 lbs. by now. Some really need that harsh, nasty wake-up call, but the tricky part is that it needs to come from someone the obese person respects. Some random doing it doesn't seem to change anything; at least it didn't for me. However, once I got it from both my wife at the time, and a powerlifter that I truly respect, it served as a real wake up call,
Someone else "shaming" me wouldn't have worked for me at all -- I was already caught up in self-hatred and dislike of my body from before I was even overweight and just felt more shame and like a failure for getting overweight. Getting over that (which had more to do with my overall approach to life) is what made me realize I wasn't a failure and (related) could control my body (i.e., get fit, lose weight). Deciding that I should be healthy and fit even if I didn't like my weight (since I still had trouble really believing weight loss would work for me) is what helped get me over that -- that and realizing that in other areas of life I was a competent, successful person who could figure stuff out, so why not this. Getting out of the shame and defeatist thing and taking charge (with the idea that I would be as fit and healthy as possible, no matter what happened with my weight and I would understand how weight loss and fitness worked) is what got me able to do what I needed to do to lose weight. And of course I lost weight and even before I was a weight I liked the fact I was using my body to do things and it was responding and I was back in control made me much more body positive (which I think was extremely helpful, not ever something that made me think "I want to stay obese" -- I find that idea weird).
Of course, I never felt like being fat was normal or acceptable when I was fat. In the subculture I am in, that people can seems hard to believe (especially for a woman). I wish I didn't so strongly accept the cultural message that fat is failure, thin is good, because I don't think it is especially helpful for me personally in staying fit.
Also, I do get how being told you are a loser or whatever can be motivating, it has been for me in other areas, but if someone is already at the point where they really believe it, are struggling hard with a total lack of esteem and feelings of self-worth, then being told that is IMO more likely to lead to defeatism and just thinking you can never have anything else, so might as well give up.
Now that you mention these things, it's likely because my starting point was the opposite. My whole family is fat. They are all okay with this, and have accepted it as some preordained lot in life. I was always surrounded by enabling behavior, and complete bullcrap about "genetics" and "big-boned". While I knew better to some extent, and disliked how I looked and felt, it was just "normal" to be that way. This was an even easier pill to swallow, coming up in the first generation to watch expanding waistlines become a common occurrence everywhere.
ETA: of course, the older I got and the more I learned, the more my hatred for the obese grew. When you spend your whole childhood being lied to about something, that it's outside of your control and acceptable...well, the pendulum swings both ways.5 -
It blows my mind that there are people out there, and apparently quite a few that would defend companies like soda manufacturers...
Why do these companies need to use caramel color and high fructose corn syrup in there products?
Arguing that "Yeah, sure... Water is unhealthy if you consume to much"... Is just so freaking retarded that I've completely lost faith in half of humanity.
It's people like many of those above that are the reason companies get away with things like this and why we can't have food labeling in California4 -
JstTheWayIam wrote: »It blows my mind that there are people out there, and apparently quite a few that would defend companies like soda manufacturers...
Why do these companies need to use caramel color and high fructose corn syrup in there products?
Arguing that "Yeah, sure... Water is unhealthy if you consume to much"... Is just so freaking retarded that I've completely lost faith in half of humanity.
It's people like many of those above that are the reason companies get away with things like this and why we can't have food labeling in California
They use these things because their sales plummet when they don't. Remember Crystal Pepsi and New Coke? Our demand drives the corporate decisions, no matter what you may choose to believe.
All of the cane sugar sodas introduced over the past few years still sell less than half of the volume of their standard counterparts.4 -
Gallowmere1984 wrote: »JstTheWayIam wrote: »It blows my mind that there are people out there, and apparently quite a few that would defend companies like soda manufacturers...
Why do these companies need to use caramel color and high fructose corn syrup in there products?
Arguing that "Yeah, sure... Water is unhealthy if you consume to much"... Is just so freaking retarded that I've completely lost faith in half of humanity.
It's people like many of those above that are the reason companies get away with things like this and why we can't have food labeling in California
They use these things because their sales plummet when they don't. Remember Crystal Pepsi and New Coke? Our demand drives the corporate decisions, no matter what you may choose to believe.
All of the cane sugar sodas introduced over the past few years still sell less than half of the volume of their standard counterparts.
Lame argument... Their sales are plummeting now because they use these ingredients.
I wanted to run through a wall when I saw the last Coke Zero commercial.
"Coke Zero... There's nothing in it! ".
Really... Nothing in it? As pure as water hu...
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