Welcome to Debate Club! Please be aware that this is a space for respectful debate, and that your ideas will be challenged here. Please remember to critique the argument, not the author.

Fat Acceptance Movement

Options
1…3536384041…73

Replies

  • T1DCarnivoreRunner
    T1DCarnivoreRunner Posts: 11,502 Member
    edited December 2016
    Options
    jmbmilholland wrote: »
    midwesterner85 wrote: »
    cqbkaju wrote: »
    midwesterner85 wrote: »
    1. I never use chopsticks, so of course it would be slower when using an unfamiliar tool. If I ate with chopsticks at every meal, I am sure I would be faster at using them.
    2. Nope. I realize you don't know me, so I'll set the record straight: slower eating only means digestion speed is faster in comparison to eating speed. As it is, I already am often far enough along in digestion by the time I finish eating that I can continue to eat in perpetuity. By eating slower, I'm only going to grow hungrier and hungrier as I eat.
    3. Also no. There is no such food that is filling enough for me to just eat until full and prevent obesity. Maybe that applies to some others, but I can't comprehend that nearly everyone could feel full exactly at maintenance calories with a particular food. The types of foods that satisfy one person may not satisfy another. For me, there isn't such a food, which is why I'm always frustrated with hunger.
    4. That sounds logical, but it is predicated on all of the above being true. They aren't, so this fails as a result.

    To your point, if you think you will learn to eat as fast with chopsticks as you can with a fork & spoon then you would be in for a rude awakening.
    Even Korean and Chinese people frequently use a spoon to eat because it is faster - and they have been using chopsticks since they were 3 or 4 years old.
    Japanese people do not often use a spoon except when eating curry, which really isn't part of the "diet".

    I don't know why you think you will surpass that degree of proficiency, no matter how much you practice.
    Since #1 of the "diet" is based on using chopsticks, you will not eat as fast as you think and the rest will follow.

    You will get better, but you will not get faster than a native Japanese, Korean or Chinese person who was using them since they could walk.

    Doesn't matter and I don't want to debate it but you are starting with a flawed premise.
    Thinking you will become faster with chopsticks than someone using them their whole life is simply misguided.

    Fair enough. So I guess I'm spending a whole lot more time eating, then. This doesn't mean I will eat less, it just means that I have to spend all my waking hours eating. Incredibly inefficient, since I won't have time to do anything more productive.

    Do you feel like eating large piles of romaine or spinach or other low-calorie green veggies has no impact on your hunger? Like, if you just had your burger or whatnot as usual, but rather than fries you had piles of greens fixed in a tasty manner, it wouldn't have an impact? Aren't there some foods that contribute to satiety more than others?

    Just to further elaborate, today I brought a slice of quiche with a lard crust which is over 450 calories. I didn't have time to pack my sides, so I went down to our cafeteria and, inspired by our discussion (thank you!), grabbed 100 g of calamari, a huge pile of romaine, a huge pile of pickled onions and cucumbers, and a tablespoon of a lime-vinaigrette dressing--all that food was a mere 250 calories, and additionally contributed to satiety and hit many important micronutrients as well as putting a dent in my protein macro.

    Had I instead grabbed a medium fry and then attempted to eat 250 calories worth, it would have been a fail because I would have eaten the whole box (can't moderate) and probably not been as filled, mentally, physically, and nutritionally, as with the pile of squid and veg.

    Interestingly, while the Japanese portion of my lunch is manifestly healthy, the French portion (handmade lard crust, heavy cream, eggs, onions, cheese and bacon) is the poster child for the stereotypical "Western" diet (being another crown jewel of French provincial cuisine) and has people screaming and dancing about the evil "unhealthy" fat, meats, and dairy on MFP on a regular basis. Thus, we also have the mysterious "French Paradox." (Again, I suspect much of this comes down to portion sizes and lots of walking, plus very long meals and lots of talking, which likely has the same effect as the chopsticks referenced above). I can fit one slice of quiche in my diet and it is still perfectly healthy; of course, more is definitely not better.

    Nope. I was just mentioning today in another thread that I once ate 9 lbs. of salad and only stopped because I ran out, not because I was full. The logic that any particular food is going to be filling for everyone ignores individual differences.

    ETA: More recently (yesterday), I ate 38.2 ounces of salad. This is something I had mixed together starting with a Dole Classic Iceberg lettuce, then added diced cucumbers and diced tomatoes. I ate that while I was impatiently waiting for a corned beef brisket to finish cooking. Then after eating the brisket, I was still hungry so I chopped up and ate more than 20 ounces of celery. At that point, I was still hungry but was already over my calories for the day and decided to stop eating. Before I cared about losing weight, I would have eaten quite a bit more.
  • lemurcat12
    lemurcat12 Posts: 30,886 Member
    Options
    midwesterner85 wrote: »
    lemurcat12 wrote: »
    cqbkaju wrote: »
    lemurcat12 wrote: »
    I do think it's easy enough to have healthy cafeterias and many places probably do. My old employer had what I'd consider a healthy in-house lunch available for $4. My current one has no lunch, except for a group thing every other Friday that isn't cafeteria like at all. (Sometimes it's more healthy than others.)

    There is a big difference between having a few more expensive "healthy" choices and having mostly affordable healthy choices.
    Many people pick the less healthy choices because of price, taste preference, etc.

    By making most or all of the choices "healthy" and pricing them accordingly, the problem can begin to solve itself.
    You might not like how Japan does it, but you are hard pressed to argue with results.

    I am confused by this -- I wasn't arguing against your idea. Midwesterner was, of course. You seem to word this as if I were arguing with you: "you might not like how Japan does it." (I haven't stated an opinion and on the cafeteria thing think I like it, without having enough information to say for sure. I do think there are other cultural differences that will make a difference to success.)

    As for my former employer's choices, they were generally "healthy" to the extent individual foods can be. There'd usually be meat (usually lean meat, most commonly chicken breast or fish), salad, a cooked veg, some kind of starch (potatoes, rice, etc.). Also salad dressing that was higher cal as well as lower, cheese and bacon bits and croutons that could be added to salad, and usually some kind of dessert option (definitely a difference, I'd assume). You could also make a sandwich (there was always bread and sandwich makings) and could eat unlimited amounts.

    The office was probably more health-conscious than the public as a whole and obesity was extremely rare -- I think the cafeteria being generally "healthy" was a result of that rather than the cause.

    No, you have clearly misunderstood my point.

    I understood you to be arguing with the idea that Japanese cafeterias focused on "healthy" food would be a possible help. I understood that that was in part because you were taking issue with the idea that they were "healthier" or that people would eat less based on the food differences, but wasn't really interested in that. My (limited) point was the one arguing about the cafeteria thing was you, not me.

    Since the poster actually seems to have understood this, I have no further need to comment.

    Oh, okay, one more:
    If I were at a Japanese cafeteria, I can guarantee I'm not eating fewer calories than I am here in the U.S.

    That's nice. I don't happen to think they are the solution here either, for a lot of reasons, but I do think that given a choice between that or fast food MOST people (not everyone) would consume more calories at the fast food place. But I'm not trying to say eating fast food makes you fat or that it should be outlawed or that companies should have to have cafeterias or any such thing.
  • Annie_01
    Annie_01 Posts: 3,096 Member
    Options
    GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »
    obiwankendrobi wrote: »
    I'm indifferent. Not my body, not my problem. If someone is completely happy being fat, then good for them. If anyone has a problem with someone being happy with their fat, then they really need to take a look at their lives and think about why they have a problem with it and why they feel the need to tear someone down.

    I'd like to step in here and make a point that there a discussion going on about the movement, not about individuals.

    I have a huge problem with obesity as a societal issue, because it is a drain on society and we aren't effectively addressing it. The Fat Acceptance Movement actively promotes obesity. I don't have a problem with any individual obese people.

    I have a huge problem with a movement that glorifies and promotes unhealthy behaviors among its members and ultimately wants civil rights protection for obesity.

    I don't have a problem with my next door neighbor or the grocery store cashier with the cool purple hair.

    There is a difference.

    On civil rights...I agree there should not be a need for "special rights" for anyone...they should be the same for us all. The problem is...people take it upon themselves to decide who is "worthy" of being treated equally.

    However...we know prejudices exist...they exist in forms of discriminations against many including those that are obese. No laws can stop it...maybe only slow it down a bit. I am sure that there are some people that have been denied job/promotions in the work place because of their size. Possibly there have been obese people denied housing because they are obese.

    Sadly, no matter what laws that exist, people seem to be able to find a way around them if they are bigoted against any one group of people.

  • lemurcat12
    lemurcat12 Posts: 30,886 Member
    Options
    mskimee wrote: »
    jammer1963 wrote: »
    The term "Thick" comes to mind. I'm not fat, I'm "thick". No, your fat, but in a political correct world, that's not the proper thing to say, so saying "thick" is more acceptable and expected. That only exacerbates the problem.

    I love this so much cos in Ireland if you call someone "Thick" it is in no way related to their weight/body. If you're "thick" over here it means you're stupid!! Lol

    Thick isn't totally mainstream in the US. Maybe 'cause I'm not a millennial I am pretty sure most I know wouldn't understand what it was supposed to me or consider it an insult. Also, even from MFP, I think it refers to a specific look, not just being fat. (I think it sounds dumb and there are better words, but like I said, I'm not with it.) ;-)
    However I do think The HAES is definitely related to bigger people.

    Eh, it's easy to overestimate the influence of something if you happen to pay a lot of attention to it (like with your FB page). I never heard of HAES before MFP, and I am positive it's no influence on people I know (and I am also positive that most people want to be thin, even if they aren't). It's usually social ideas of attractiveness -- which still means thin -- plus your social circle that dictates whether fat is acceptable, I think, so if anything more people being fat means it's more okay (not that people want to be, but they don't feel as freakish to be a little overweight as I think people did in, say, the '80s). Don't think HAES plays any role. (What I think it does in some cases (which is bad) is encourage some who are already overweight to think they have no control over it and shouldn't try to lose weight.)
    I have seen so much stuff on Facebook about "men want meat, not bones" or similar stuff. It seems OK to shame slimmer people, but you say boo to a heavier person you're seen as a bad person. How many people have told me in the last few months "Is that all you're having for lunch?" or "You have lost TOO much weight" but wouldn't dream of saying to an obese person "Are you eating ALL of that for lunch?" or "You've gained too much weight". :-(

    Again, people don't say stuff directly to fat people when being polite, because they assume (correctly) that the fat person thinks it is bad to be fat already. When I was fat I was super aware of not eating much in front of people because they could judge me and would (I think this was from my own head, largely -- no one said anything -- but it was some kind of social thing I got). Not saying this is bad, btw. Being normal weight, I'm much more comfortable in being able to eat what I want (although I'm still paranoid that people might think "oh, she's going to get fat again"). I get comments now that some would apparently take as "shaming" -- including "don't get to thin" -- but since I know the dominant ideal in my social circle/culture is thin, I tend to perceive these as compliments or harmless buttering me up (I am not "so thin," not even close).

    The men like meat thing, while offensive IMO too and while I think thinner women (or simply less curvy women) should call it out, and I call it out too as inappropriate, reads to me like people trying to convince themselves that it's okay to be a bit heavy. It doesn't change the certainty in my mind that most people still think it's better to be thinner.

    I don't really see people commenting on each other's meals, so always wonder where this happens, as it comes across as extremely rude and inappropriate to me, violating social norms unless it's a relative or something. (Asking questions about food choices in an interested way would be different and I wonder if some misinterpret this or start the conversation -- I know many who like to go on about their special diets -- and then get mad if they get asked.)

    As for over-the-top comments on physical appearance, I really think those read as socially inappropriate and to me they would be rare (most are nervous to say anything). (I found out one co-worker asked if I was sick before saying anything which seems weird to me but I understand the worry about saying "good job" and finding out the weight loss was unintentional or related to something bad.) I have gotten a bunch from our cleaning woman at work (who is Polish) and it always struck me as a sign of a very different culture, so I gave her a pass for some stuff that would be really rude in the US (although it was mostly positive, sometimes in a superbackhanded way, though, and not always about weight, she comments on my hair too).

    Thinking back, when I was in college a dorm-mate went from normal to worryingly thin (this was the late '80s) and we asked her if she was okay and stuff like that and she got annoyed, but it wasn't thin shaming at all and had nothing to do with thinking she looked bad -- it was genuine worry. Even when I think it's way off-base I'd understand genuine worry, especially from a friend or relative. (And I know from others that they've suspected a co-worker of having a problem with what sounded like good reasons and yet felt like it would be wrong to say anything and didn't, so I don't really think that it's considered much more okay to comment when someone is too thin. I do think comments like "you are so skinny lately!" may just be awkward ways to compliment that some take as insulting (I've taken the same as positive), and "jeez, do you always have to be so strict" can be rude ways to complain if someone is perceived as interfering with other's fun (as if can't do something until gets the workout in or can't go to a desired restaurant). I think you'd get the latter if you were fat and refused to do something on that basis too, though -- I think it's more humans being self-absorbed than an effort to shame.
  • lemurcat12
    lemurcat12 Posts: 30,886 Member
    Options
    GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »
    obiwankendrobi wrote: »
    I'm indifferent. Not my body, not my problem. If someone is completely happy being fat, then good for them. If anyone has a problem with someone being happy with their fat, then they really need to take a look at their lives and think about why they have a problem with it and why they feel the need to tear someone down.

    I'd like to step in here and make a point that there a discussion going on about the movement, not about individuals.

    I have a huge problem with obesity as a societal issue, because it is a drain on society and we aren't effectively addressing it. The Fat Acceptance Movement actively promotes obesity. I don't have a problem with any individual obese people.

    I have a huge problem with a movement that glorifies and promotes unhealthy behaviors among its members and ultimately wants civil rights protection for obesity.

    I don't have a problem with my next door neighbor or the grocery store cashier with the cool purple hair.

    There is a difference.

    Yep, excellent distinction that apparently some aren't seeing (I suspect from not really reading the discussion).
  • lemurcat12
    lemurcat12 Posts: 30,886 Member
    Options
    Gallowmere1984 wrote: »
    GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »
    obiwankendrobi wrote: »
    I'm indifferent. Not my body, not my problem. If someone is completely happy being fat, then good for them. If anyone has a problem with someone being happy with their fat, then they really need to take a look at their lives and think about why they have a problem with it and why they feel the need to tear someone down.

    I'd like to step in here and make a point that there a discussion going on about the movement, not about individuals.

    I have a huge problem with obesity as a societal issue, because it is a drain on society and we aren't effectively addressing it. The Fat Acceptance Movement promotes actively promotes obesity. I don't have a problem with any individual obese people.

    I have a huge problem with a movement that glorifies and promotes unhealthy behaviors among its members that ultimately wants civil rights protection for obesity.

    I don't have a problem with my next door neighbor or the grocery store cashier with the cool purple hair.

    There is a difference.

    I view it much the same as drug users who are in extremely deep. It's none of my business what they put in their bodies on an individual level, but I think we can all agree that a nation consisting of 40+% apathetic smackheads would be a problem, especially if they suddenly became a protected class.

    This I see as different from GottaBurnEm's comment. I do think the obesity rate is a social problem -- obesity causes health problems and if children are increasingly obese that is especially worrisome.

    I don't think it causes nearly the same kinds of problems or is much similar to people being junkies. People who are overweight and obese can still be productive members of society, and there's no related crime, etc.
  • T1DCarnivoreRunner
    T1DCarnivoreRunner Posts: 11,502 Member
    Options
    Gallowmere1984 wrote: »
    GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »
    obiwankendrobi wrote: »
    I'm indifferent. Not my body, not my problem. If someone is completely happy being fat, then good for them. If anyone has a problem with someone being happy with their fat, then they really need to take a look at their lives and think about why they have a problem with it and why they feel the need to tear someone down.

    I'd like to step in here and make a point that there a discussion going on about the movement, not about individuals.

    I have a huge problem with obesity as a societal issue, because it is a drain on society and we aren't effectively addressing it. The Fat Acceptance Movement promotes actively promotes obesity. I don't have a problem with any individual obese people.

    I have a huge problem with a movement that glorifies and promotes unhealthy behaviors among its members that ultimately wants civil rights protection for obesity.

    I don't have a problem with my next door neighbor or the grocery store cashier with the cool purple hair.

    There is a difference.

    I view it much the same as drug users who are in extremely deep. It's none of my business what they put in their bodies on an individual level, but I think we can all agree that a nation consisting of 40+% apathetic smackheads would be a problem, especially if they suddenly became a protected class.

    Yes, and I would even go a step further: My personal observation is that the normalization of obesity has become so widespread that overweight is now considered to be a healthy weight. As most everyone here knows, I have type 1 diabetes... not related to obesity. It used to be that I met the clinical criteria for type 2 diabetes as well. In fact, I was diagnosed with type 2 diabetes as a teenager after having type 1 diabetes for a few years. I know more about type 1 diabetes than most physicians, and have a very good understanding of type 2 diabetes (better than a lot of physicians, perhaps not most). I am very open about my health issues and am always willing to discuss.

    Often, I'm having a conversation and I mention that most type 2's have diabetes simply because they are overweight or obese. Nearly every time, the response is, "<My relative, friend, or I> have type 2 diabetes and isn't/am not fat." It may be a defensive response because they are thinking, often subconsciously, that the status of being overweight or obese is a negative trait. It isn't positive or negative, it is neutral... it's just a fact of that person's stats. On the other hand, it is more relevant that being overweight or obese is subjectively determined. They look at someone (or they are someone) who, as far as I can tell, is noticeably overweight. Yet the bar for what is perceived to be overweight has shifted so far upwards that suddenly carrying 50 lbs. too much is considered normal and healthy.

    In fact, I get the same thing from others. I'm open with people I know about trying to lose weight. As that has happened over the past few years, I get responses more and more often about how good I look. About 25-30 lbs. ago, I started getting responses that I should stop trying to lose. Some people were genuinely concerned that I'm losing too much. Their view of what is healthy vs. unhealthy considers what is a truly healthy weight to be underweight; and what is overweight to be healthy. I can't help but think that these movements have had an effect to socially normalize being overweight and obese.
  • CipherZero
    CipherZero Posts: 1,418 Member
    Options
    Gallowmere1984 wrote: »
    What I would personally love to see, is a bunch of prominent bodybuilders completely hijack the HAES movement.

    Was already done on the Twitter hashtag #notyourgoodfatty - the website of the same name was created by someone to counter their lying *kitten*.
  • Gallowmere1984
    Gallowmere1984 Posts: 6,626 Member
    Options
    CipherZero wrote: »
    Gallowmere1984 wrote: »
    What I would personally love to see, is a bunch of prominent bodybuilders completely hijack the HAES movement.

    Was already done on the Twitter hashtag #notyourgoodfatty - the website of the same name was created by someone to counter their lying *kitten*.

    The fact that it's on Twitter would explain why I missed it.
  • GottaBurnEmAll
    GottaBurnEmAll Posts: 7,722 Member
    Options
    Annie_01 wrote: »
    GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »
    obiwankendrobi wrote: »
    I'm indifferent. Not my body, not my problem. If someone is completely happy being fat, then good for them. If anyone has a problem with someone being happy with their fat, then they really need to take a look at their lives and think about why they have a problem with it and why they feel the need to tear someone down.

    I'd like to step in here and make a point that there a discussion going on about the movement, not about individuals.

    I have a huge problem with obesity as a societal issue, because it is a drain on society and we aren't effectively addressing it. The Fat Acceptance Movement actively promotes obesity. I don't have a problem with any individual obese people.

    I have a huge problem with a movement that glorifies and promotes unhealthy behaviors among its members and ultimately wants civil rights protection for obesity.

    I don't have a problem with my next door neighbor or the grocery store cashier with the cool purple hair.

    There is a difference.

    On civil rights...I agree there should not be a need for "special rights" for anyone...they should be the same for us all. The problem is...people take it upon themselves to decide who is "worthy" of being treated equally.

    However...we know prejudices exist...they exist in forms of discriminations against many including those that are obese. No laws can stop it...maybe only slow it down a bit. I am sure that there are some people that have been denied job/promotions in the work place because of their size. Possibly there have been obese people denied housing because they are obese.

    Sadly, no matter what laws that exist, people seem to be able to find a way around them if they are bigoted against any one group of people.

    You can't legislate out every bias, though. There's also a statistic showing that short men don't get hired as often.

    Are they to be granted protection under the law too? At least their height is something that can never be changed. Obesity is a solvable problem.

    That's my biggest issue with having any sort of civil rights status given to obese people. It's a self-inflicted condition. Of course there are mitigating factors, but they can be addressed, and we have not properly addressed them as a society. Passing a law granting them special privilege while they remain obese instead of getting to the root of the cause of their obesity and addressing and solving that is doing them a disservice.
  • chocolate_owl
    chocolate_owl Posts: 1,695 Member
    edited December 2016
    Options
    midwesterner85 wrote: »
    Gallowmere1984 wrote: »
    GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »
    obiwankendrobi wrote: »
    I'm indifferent. Not my body, not my problem. If someone is completely happy being fat, then good for them. If anyone has a problem with someone being happy with their fat, then they really need to take a look at their lives and think about why they have a problem with it and why they feel the need to tear someone down.

    I'd like to step in here and make a point that there a discussion going on about the movement, not about individuals.

    I have a huge problem with obesity as a societal issue, because it is a drain on society and we aren't effectively addressing it. The Fat Acceptance Movement promotes actively promotes obesity. I don't have a problem with any individual obese people.

    I have a huge problem with a movement that glorifies and promotes unhealthy behaviors among its members that ultimately wants civil rights protection for obesity.

    I don't have a problem with my next door neighbor or the grocery store cashier with the cool purple hair.

    There is a difference.

    In fact, I get the same thing from others. I'm open with people I know about trying to lose weight. As that has happened over the past few years, I get responses more and more often about how good I look. About 25-30 lbs. ago, I started getting responses that I should stop trying to lose. Some people were genuinely concerned that I'm losing too much. Their view of what is healthy vs. unhealthy considers what is a truly healthy weight to be underweight; and what is overweight to be healthy. I can't help but think that these movements have had an effect to socially normalize being overweight and obese.

    I honestly don't think the movements have had much to do with normalizing overweight as a "healthy" look - I think that's much more based upon your social circle and the demographics in your area. In my neighborhood and at my gym, the women my age generally are as slim or slimmer than me, so I wouldn't feel comfortable being heavier than I am. My extended family is all overweight/obese, but they live in areas and are friends with people who are also overweight and obese, so it seems normal. While I feel social pressure to be active and maintain a certain weight, they feel social pressure to maintain their lifestyles and relationships, i.e. pizza night with their friends instead of hitting the gym. My morbidly obese SIL calls my overweight husband "skinny" because compared to her, he is much smaller. Knowing my relatives, I bet most have never even heard of FAM or HAES.
  • Packerjohn
    Packerjohn Posts: 4,855 Member
    Options
    seekingdaintiness wrote: »
    These threads are alwasy a kitten storm. yes I types kitten ahead of the censors. lol

    Fact - I am no healthier for losing weight because my weight NEVER made me unhealthy. It's amazing how many people get super angry with me and want me to not believe my own personal experience, backed up with medical records. It's amazing how many doctors would get visibly angry when they would test me for all the "fat person" illnesses and couldn't find any. My real illnesses have been present since birth and it is very true that doctors have never had any interest in treating them because they were too busy looking for reasons to be mad at me for being fat.

    I have been on this stupid "weight loss journey" for social acceptance, nothing more, because people are viciously, hatefully cruel to fat people, have called me names you wouldn't believe, told me to die or kill myself, that I shouldn't exist, shouldn't do anything, shouldn't eat at all, shouldn't be allowed to have an opinion, and things I can't say here because they would all be "kittened" out. None of these things made me want to do anything more than lock myself in my bedroom and cry. Why do people think these things "encourage people to lose weight"?

    I suppose in a sense it is true - eventually they pushed me into an eating disorder because I hated myself. I have not lost weight healthily and am in much worse shape now than when I was fat.

    As mentioned earlier you are one person. Also you look relatively young, most likely the effects just had not manifested themselves in you yet.

    If you do some research, the effects of virtually all illnesses, diseases, orthopedic problems, etc are made worse by excess weight.

Categories