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Fat Acceptance Movement
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Apart from HAES, though -- my knowledge of them is largely based on the descriptions here -- who is saying we can't talk about obesity being a negative or problem? From my observation, this is commonplace, and I have no problem with it.
I am maybe being too literal, but I don't know what is meant by saying society does or doesn't accept obesity. How do we community to a fat person (assuming she has no idea that this is the view, which I think is a false assumption) that being fat is a negative or not acceptable, for example. How it's not healthy is easy (and IMO unobjectionable): that's covered in the press, doctors tell you, there are governmental efforts, wellness programs through insurance, etc.0 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »Ah, I finally figured out my Googlefu. For anyone laboring under the illusion that there's any pretense of "health" in HAES, check this out:
https://www.sizediversityandhealth.org/content.asp?id=152The Health At Every Size® Approach
The Association for Size Diversity and Health (ASDAH) affirms a holistic definition of health, which cannot be characterized as simply the absence of physical or mental illness, limitation, or disease. Rather, health exists on a continuum that varies with time and circumstance for each individual. Health should be conceived as a resource or capacity available to all regardless of health condition or ability level, and not as an outcome or objective of living. Pursuing health is neither a moral imperative nor an individual obligation, and health status should never be used to judge, oppress, or determine the value of an individual.
The framing for a Health At Every Size (HAES®) approach comes out of discussions among healthcare workers, consumers, and activists who reject both the use of weight, size, or BMI as proxies for health, and the myth that weight is a choice. The HAES model is an approach to both policy and individual decision-making. It addresses broad forces that support health, such as safe and affordable access. It also helps people find sustainable practices that support individual and community well-being. The HAES approach honors the healing power of social connections, evolves in response to the experiences and needs of a diverse community, and grounds itself in a social justice framework.
This is among the most vapid nonsense I've read in forever, and I have an MA in English lit.
Try reading anything coming out of critical theorists work and you get this, word for word. It's post-Marxist communist theory.3 -
Aaron_K123 wrote: »Look. Being overweight has negative health consequences...that is a fact. A society with high obesity rates is impoverished by this because taking care of people with habitual health issues costs a lot of money. Therefore society should discourage obesity. For society to be able to discourage obesity we have to be able to talk about it as being a negative. Acting like that is hurtful to people's feelings so we shouldn't do it is the PC nonesense.
I'm not saying that you as an individual should yell at fat people and call them fatty-McFatpants or something its just as a society we should encourage people to be at body weights that are most conducive to health because what is the point of a society if it isn't to steer the general population away from harm and into positive outcomes. Not by force, but by what the society accepts versus what it does not accept.
Yes this exactly0 -
"lemurcat12 wrote:I think because it is visible and other ways of endangering your health (my sleep example, or being reckless in general) are not --
heh. the canadian medical system has just put out for me and my lifestyle, to the tune of a doctor's appointment, a pelvic and hip x-ray, and who knows what might come next if that doesn't show anything. if i were part of some third-party 'extended coverage' system the costs of supporting my little hobby would be a lot more because i'd be hitting the physio and other paramedical systems as well.
simple solution: quit lifting weights. your fun's getting expensive for everyone else. but i like lifting weights the same way someone else might like eating oreos. our poisons of choice are both costing The System. my needs are directly induced by my lifestyle of choice, but what makes mine 'better' on some moral plane? it's a theoretical question, i know. but it is true that since i got interested enough to actually seek out 'active' communities, i've found an incredible wealth of medical activity being talked about as if it were perfectly fine. my own doctor has certainly seen more of me since i discovered barbells than she's seen of me in the previous ten years combined.
so yeah. i'd agree the dichotomy's false. i've now suddenly gotten interested too in the fact that judgeyness and derision are endemic in lots of gyms, but almost nobody justifies their nitpicking about other people's lifting form by reaching for this 'money out of my pocket' card. huh.7 -
canadianlbs wrote: »"lemurcat12 wrote:I think because it is visible and other ways of endangering your health (my sleep example, or being reckless in general) are not --
heh. the canadian medical system has just put out for me and my lifestyle, to the tune of a doctor's appointment, a pelvic and hip x-ray, and who knows what might come next if that doesn't show anything. if i were part of some third-party 'extended coverage' system the costs of supporting my little hobby would be a lot more because i'd be hitting the physio and other paramedical systems as well.
simple solution: quit lifting weights. your fun's getting expensive for everyone else. but i like lifting weights the same way someone else might like eating oreos. our poisons of choice are both costing The System. my needs are directly induced by my lifestyle of choice, but what makes mine 'better' on some moral plane? it's a theoretical question, i know. but it is true that since i got interested enough to actually seek out 'active' communities, i've found an incredible wealth of medical activity being talked about as if it were perfectly fine. my own doctor has certainly seen more of me since i discovered barbells than she's seen of me in the previous ten years combined.
so yeah. i'd agree the dichotomy's false. i've now suddenly gotten interested too in the fact that judgeyness and derision are endemic in lots of gyms, but almost nobody justifies their nitpicking about other people's lifting form by reaching for this 'money out of my pocket' card. huh.
You do make a good point.
But, there may be a limit to that as well. If what you're doing is hurting yourself, by the same logic people are using against obesity, you should back off or modify in order to reduce the risk of injury and therefore needing less medical intervention than you would need if you keep doing things the way you are doing them. There are plenty of alternatives.
Example. A cousin of mine played some rough sports when he was younger. He broke his arm at least four times and his nose at least 4 times and his leg at least twice. We thought he was being pretty silly, to put it nicely. People (especially outside of the natural bias of MFP) don't actually approve of people exercising/doing "healthy" things to such an extreme that it becomes detrimental.
And joining an active community where the medical activity is not negative... is just like joining a HAES group where they think the medical activity isn't negative. You're in a group of like-minded individuals so it is normalized. Even MFP isn't going to be without bias on this topic.
So, playing devils advocate, yes, what you are doing is as bad for the system and I don't think it's a one directional "card". The people at the gym probably aren't going to say anything as a lot of them may think the same - that costing the medical system due to sports injuries is better than any other way because exercise is "always good".
And on the other side of the fence... "free" resources are provided to people who need to lose weight such as dietitians. And while physio is sometimes covered... a personal trainer (the actual solution for learning proper lifting form) will never be covered by the medical system. So it is different from that stand point, which might make people judge more heavily on the obesity issue than the over/improper use issue. Hmm.
(Again, I'm just trying to express a possible opposing point of view. I'm also one who costs the system more than they "should". I'm not trying to represent any of my personal beliefs).3 -
canadianlbs wrote: »"lemurcat12 wrote:I think because it is visible and other ways of endangering your health (my sleep example, or being reckless in general) are not --
heh. the canadian medical system has just put out for me and my lifestyle, to the tune of a doctor's appointment, a pelvic and hip x-ray, and who knows what might come next if that doesn't show anything. if i were part of some third-party 'extended coverage' system the costs of supporting my little hobby would be a lot more because i'd be hitting the physio and other paramedical systems as well.
simple solution: quit lifting weights. your fun's getting expensive for everyone else. but i like lifting weights the same way someone else might like eating oreos. our poisons of choice are both costing The System. my needs are directly induced by my lifestyle of choice, but what makes mine 'better' on some moral plane? it's a theoretical question, i know. but it is true that since i got interested enough to actually seek out 'active' communities, i've found an incredible wealth of medical activity being talked about as if it were perfectly fine. my own doctor has certainly seen more of me since i discovered barbells than she's seen of me in the previous ten years combined.
so yeah. i'd agree the dichotomy's false. i've now suddenly gotten interested too in the fact that judgeyness and derision are endemic in lots of gyms, but almost nobody justifies their nitpicking about other people's lifting form by reaching for this 'money out of my pocket' card. huh.
Unlike many, I would see you denied public funding right alongside the obese. Since I am a smoker and my lifting contributed to my injury potential, I would see me denied for any injuries and illnesses resulting from my personal choices as well. I'm nothing if not consistent, and I do not believe that I should benefit from the system anymore than anyone else.
Hell, given my stance on all of it, I feel that I have a bit of a moral obligation to not take advantage, regardless of whether or not anyone else thinks that I should.
For the record, despite several lifting injuries, and getting backed over by a truck at work, I haven't been to a doctor since I was 16.1 -
And all this ridiculous "you owe it to everyone in society to be perfect" disappears if you reject collectivism.1
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But ultimately, who gets to define what would be labeled risky behavior for the purpose of denying benefits? Riding a road bike? Running? HIking? Walking on an uneven path? Falling off a treadmill? Not getting a yearly screening for preventable diseases?2
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People are people, humans. Tall, short, skinny,chubby, fat, hairy, hairless, dark hair blond hair, blue eyes, green eyes. Some ride motorcycles, some skydive etc (if healthcare is your issue). Where do we draw the line?
Independent of any origination individual people should be accepted as we all like to be. Perhaps we don't accept the amount of food they eat, nor would we accept their body composition but they are more than that with thoughts and feelings.
Usually people have issues accepting themselves and with others lack of acceptance drives them to these types of organizations for the simple need of human companionship of some sort.
Also there is so much information out there that folks sometimes just freaking give up because they don't know what to do.1 -
canadianlbs wrote: »i think there's a lot of visceral hate among anti-fat folks, to be honest. now that obesity has become an acceptable Thing to get all bent about, it's gained a set of terms and 'concerns' to dress itself in. but i still don't grok looking over the fence and giving a damn about somebody else and what they do, don't do, or are. so i think the hatred is there. and i think it's really the same thing that it always was.
the original fat acceptance movement was something i might have been around for, if what i saw in the later 90's was its inception. i liked it. it sought to get at the real, psychological sources of what 'fat' people deal with, and it sought to call the vilification for what it was in hopes that everybody would grow a little and some things would change. but isms usually evolve pretty fast to find ways around whatever is put up to block them ime. so since then the haters have gone sideways into this host of easily-accessed medical and social justifications. it seems like this particular group just wasn't mentally swift enough to resist the temptation to answer in kind. but so what? when the focus remains only on what the lunatic fringe are saying, then it's a closed loop, a static circle - just an endless cycle of hate revolving between two poles that are pretty much fixed.
it's still just two groups of toddlers calling each other poopyheads, to my mind.
Do you know that the original organized fat acceptance movement actually has unsavory underpinnings?
At its genesis in the ... I want to say 70's, the man who got the ball rolling was a feeder?
The women who had tried earlier in the 60's to launch some sort of movement hitched their wagons to his star when his group started to gain some traction.
I find the whole story ultimately sad. The women sold out their ideals to further their dysfunctional behavior and put themselves in bed with a fetishist all in the name of getting some political standing.
And now, here we are.1 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »Apart from HAES, though -- my knowledge of them is largely based on the descriptions here -- who is saying we can't talk about obesity being a negative or problem? From my observation, this is commonplace, and I have no problem with it.
I am maybe being too literal, but I don't know what is meant by saying society does or doesn't accept obesity. How do we community to a fat person (assuming she has no idea that this is the view, which I think is a false assumption) that being fat is a negative or not acceptable, for example. How it's not healthy is easy (and IMO unobjectionable): that's covered in the press, doctors tell you, there are governmental efforts, wellness programs through insurance, etc.
Actually, the fat acceptance movement holds that speaking of fatness as a negative is fat shaming.
Even saying that it's not healthy isn't acceptable. All of the things you mentioned about the government's efforts, press coverage and doctors? They're all wrong and fat shaming.2 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »I'm not a fan of HAES and I think the idea that obesity is perfectly healthy and outside our control is nuts. But that said, I am curious about some things:But I don't think it's okay to open the door to accepting unhealthy behaviors.
What are you concerned about happening that would result in "accepting unhealthy behaviors" more than we as a society always have (in that I'm not going to comment on what someone else chooses to eat, none of my business). Maybe it's different subcultures, but it definitely doesn't seem to me that it's considered preferable to be overweight or desirable at all or that anyone is being told (outside of non mainstream groups) that obesity is healthy. Quite the opposite -- when I was a kid being fat was a bad thing because people thought it was a size of laziness and unattractive, but I don't think people were nearly as conscious of it as a health issue.
I'm pretty unconcerned about obesity being encouraged or even not discouraged socially or by health professionals, so when people claim to be worried about this, I wonder what they mean.Sure, a few pounds here or there isn't likely to cause adverse health effects, similarly a few drinks here and there aren't likely to cause adverse health effects. We should be supportive and be helping one another, no matter the challenges of their journey. No matter their hang ups.
What do you think we should be doing? It might be that we agree on that stuff (education or some such), but from what you say I can't tell if you think it would be useful to go up to random fat people in the grocery store or some such and tell them they eat too much, which -- as a formerly fat person -- I can't imagine being helpful at all.
Now if someone asks me about how I lost weight, sincerely, I'm always happy to be helpful and supportive, and as seeing others lose weight was inspiring to me I hope that my having done so and living an active life is maybe inspiring to some others.We really need to be addressing for what it is, a disorder. Love the people, treat the disease.
Again, what do you mean by this?No one is shaming large people. I think that's just political crap.
I've seen plenty of insults yelled at fat people and the like (was told I was fat and disgusting as a teen even though I objectively was not), and I see a lot of more subtle fat shaming (mocking people for being overweight, not directly to their face, discounting people for being fat).It's okay to not take care of yourself physically, mentally or spirituality? Did the insurance companies come up with this?
Why would the insurance companies come up with it? Their motive is to charge you more if you are more of a health risk (i.e., fat), which isn't exactly like saying it's cool. And now that they can't, really, their motive is to cut costs by pressuring people to lose weight. If insurance companies or the medical establishment could figure out good ways to combat obesity, they'd be all over it. (My insurance plan, like many, has a health and wellness program that focuses a lot on weight -- even though it didn't change what I paid, I liked being able to score well on it and make improvements.)
Also, I never know what people mean when they say something is "not okay." I spent months sleeping far less than is recommended, for example, which is a health risk. Let's agree that's not okay (although I kind of think it's my business). What does that imply to you? That if you know it (since it's less visible than my weight and I don't have to admit to it) that you can come up to me and lecture me? What? I honestly don't understand what you are really saying here.
I don't think it's responsible to not follow the news or not know who the members of the Supreme Court are, or the Cabinet, or how our governmental system works, or basic history. Yet, from what I see, lots and lots of people don't care about that at all. I guess I kind of think that's not okay, that they are choosing to be ignorant and not taking care of their mental development or being a responsible citizen (heck, I think not reading books falls into this category, and yet again many people are in it). Should I proclaim that we all must accept that this is NOT OKAY? And if so, what should I demand?
I'm saying, I don't understand the fat shaming issue. I was told by a larger person that they don't like people that work out. That's fine, no one is forcing another person to live as I or anyone else sees fit. Be fat if you want. But it's not healthy. I never cried skinny shaming.
Ya know, people are *kitten*. They criticize others on childish whims. I could wear something stupid and be ridiculed for it- I don't have to be fat.
I have no idea why you think confronting "fat" people would be ideal or even a sarcastic solution.
Get the chip of your shoulder.0 -
You don't have to accept people's lifestyle choices to accept the person themselves.
You may smoke, I don't - but I can accept you and not accept your choice. That's all I'm saying.
Again I'm talking about individuals not the organization.
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I don't care if people want to be happy with their body size as long as they realize being fat at 70 isn't the same as 30 or 40. I work in a hospital and if you are fat and make it to 70 chances are you are going to have to have a bed side commode (potty next to the bed) and have me wipe your butt because your little skeleton and joints aren't young anymore. People NEVER think about this. Basically this means you will end up in a nursing home with little independence.7
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You don't have to accept people's lifestyle choices to accept the person themselves.
You may smoke, I don't - but I can accept you and not accept your choice. That's all I'm saying.
Again I'm talking about individuals not the organization.
This is essentially how I handle it. I see a lot of butthurt over some of the terms that I use to describe the obese (including my former self), but I have never once directly attacked an individual, other than myself. Now, of members of a larger group identify with the terms that I use enough to get upset about it, that's not my problem.
Also, those who get offended on behalf of others can be discarded out of hand.3 -
Gallowmere1984 wrote: »You don't have to accept people's lifestyle choices to accept the person themselves.
You may smoke, I don't - but I can accept you and not accept your choice. That's all I'm saying.
Again I'm talking about individuals not the organization.
This is essentially how I handle it. I see a lot of butthurt over some of the terms that I use to describe the obese (including my former self), but I have never once directly attacked an individual, other than myself. Now, of members of a larger group identify with the terms that I use enough to get upset about it, that's not my problem.
Also, those who get offended on behalf of others can be discarded out of hand.
I understood and you had me until that last sentence.
Sometimes we have to stand up for others, sometimes they are just so beaten down they don't know where to turn, sometimes they turn to dangers organizations.
But thats just me:).
ETA- I suspect if you saw a woman or child being openly fat shamed in some way in public and they were crying and looking defeated you and your big ole heart would not only get offended but you would probably speak out maybe to the offender maybe to just comfort the offended.
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I don't care if people want to be happy with their body size as long as they realize being fat at 70 isn't the same as 30 or 40. I work in a hospital and if you are fat and make it to 70 chances are you are going to have to have a bed side commode (potty next to the bed) and have me wipe your butt because your little skeleton and joints aren't young anymore. People NEVER think about this. Basically this means you will end up in a nursing home with little independence.
I work in healthcare as well and see a great deal of very large people (requiring more manpower, equipment, $$$$ and time to treat) and plenty of older people (65yrs +).
Don't see that many obese older people though.
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chocolate_owl wrote: »And why would being happy with my body keep me from improving it?
Sorry, this comment really depresses me
Loving my body would be such an accomplishment, I don't see how it's "giving up."
The whole point of the HAES and FA (Fat Acceptance) movement is to settle with what you have. If you attempt to improve yourself, those communities will absolutely shun you.
Be happy with your body. Or not. As long as you're working on self-improvement, you're on the right path. I am Random Internet Guy, and my opinion is as useless as everyone else's. Certainly nothing I say should depress anyone; I'm just not that important.
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Gallowmere1984 wrote: »You don't have to accept people's lifestyle choices to accept the person themselves.
You may smoke, I don't - but I can accept you and not accept your choice. That's all I'm saying.
Again I'm talking about individuals not the organization.
This is essentially how I handle it. I see a lot of butthurt over some of the terms that I use to describe the obese (including my former self), but I have never once directly attacked an individual, other than myself. Now, of members of a larger group identify with the terms that I use enough to get upset about it, that's not my problem.
Also, those who get offended on behalf of others can be discarded out of hand.
I understood and you had me until that last sentence.
Sometimes we have to stand up for others, sometimes they are just so beaten down they don't know where to turn, sometimes they turn to dangers organizations.
But thats just me:).
ETA- I suspect if you saw a woman or child being openly fat shamed in some way in public and they were crying and looking defeated you and your big ole heart would not only get offended but you would probably speak out maybe to the offender maybe to just comfort the offended.
I may not have been very clear. By "get offended on behalf of others", I was referring to the group based statements that are often made. A white person who gets offended when someone makes a fried chicken joke is an idiot. A white person who interjects into a situation where a black individual is being openly attacked (either verbally or otherwise) is just being a decent person.5 -
RonnieLodge wrote: »I don't care if people want to be happy with their body size as long as they realize being fat at 70 isn't the same as 30 or 40. I work in a hospital and if you are fat and make it to 70 chances are you are going to have to have a bed side commode (potty next to the bed) and have me wipe your butt because your little skeleton and joints aren't young anymore. People NEVER think about this. Basically this means you will end up in a nursing home with little independence.
I work in healthcare as well and see a great deal of very large people (requiring more manpower, equipment, $$$$ and time to treat) and plenty of older people (65yrs +).
Don't see that many obese older people though.
Yesterday, my RN daughter had a 300+ pd 70 yo patient who is bedridden and can only move her arms. It took 2 nurses to roll her over to clean her butt. Daughter's back is sore as heck today. 3
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