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Fat Acceptance Movement
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Noreenmarie1234 wrote: »The problem I have with it is, you are NOT healthy at any size. Both ways- to skinny is unhealthy and to fat is unhealthy. To skinny can give you reproduction issues, muscle and joint issues. To fat can give you heart issues, joint issues, diabetes, and high cholesterol.
However, shaming someone for being fat makes you an *kitten*, human decency is not limited by someone's size.
Exactly, its not okay to make fun of fat people and "shame" them. But being overweight and obese should NOT be shown as healthy in the media. It is terrible that they are showing "obesity is healthy and normal, some people are just big" because it skews the general perception of obesity. Many people nowadays say that people who are on the low end of healthy are "anorexic thin" and "way too thin". It was never this way back in the the day. But not that everyone is used to seeing so many obese and overweight it has become normal. THAT is the problem.
Except that having a BMI <20 had been shown in many analysis to be strongly correlated with high rates of morbidity and mortality, been after controlling for preexisting illnesses. How high? Higher than "overweight" and "class 1" obesity. Slightly higher than"class 2" obesity. Moreover, outcomes have changed since the smoking rates have dropped.
Lumping "overweight" and all "obese" individuals together makes no statistical sense and less sense for people exhorting on the ills of too much weight.
You have to remember with the BMI less than 20 statistic than many people who are terminally ill fall to below 20 before they die so it isn't necessarily the fact that they are below 20 that is explaining the higher mortality5 -
Anorexics have pro-ana groups, obese people have fat-acceptance groups. Its a way of retreating from a society that considers their health to be at risk and instead surrounding themselves with people who are affirming that what they are or what they are doing is okay.13
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Noreenmarie1234 wrote: »The problem I have with it is, you are NOT healthy at any size. Both ways- to skinny is unhealthy and to fat is unhealthy. To skinny can give you reproduction issues, muscle and joint issues. To fat can give you heart issues, joint issues, diabetes, and high cholesterol.
However, shaming someone for being fat makes you an *kitten*, human decency is not limited by someone's size.
Exactly, its not okay to make fun of fat people and "shame" them. But being overweight and obese should NOT be shown as healthy in the media. It is terrible that they are showing "obesity is healthy and normal, some people are just big" because it skews the general perception of obesity. Many people nowadays say that people who are on the low end of healthy are "anorexic thin" and "way too thin". It was never this way back in the the day. But not that everyone is used to seeing so many obese and overweight it has become normal. THAT is the problem.
Except that having a BMI <20 had been shown in many analysis to be strongly correlated with high rates of morbidity and mortality, been after controlling for preexisting illnesses. How high? Higher than "overweight" and "class 1" obesity. Slightly higher than"class 2" obesity. Moreover, outcomes have changed since the smoking rates have dropped.
Lumping "overweight" and all "obese" individuals together makes no statistical sense and less sense for people exhorting on the ills of too much weight.
Can you site a source for this? The only data I've seen that suggested this did NOT account for medical conditions.0 -
Aaron_K123 wrote: »Anorexics have pro-ana groups, obese people have fat-acceptance groups. Its a way of retreating from a society that considers their health to be at risk and instead surrounding themselves with people who are affirming that what they are or what they are doing is okay.
Exactly though I know a lot of people with diagnosed eating disorders who hate hate hate pro ana as it seems a lot of the members are "wannabe" anorexics and glamorize a horrible disease0 -
Noreenmarie1234 wrote: »The problem I have with it is, you are NOT healthy at any size. Both ways- to skinny is unhealthy and to fat is unhealthy. To skinny can give you reproduction issues, muscle and joint issues. To fat can give you heart issues, joint issues, diabetes, and high cholesterol.
However, shaming someone for being fat makes you an *kitten*, human decency is not limited by someone's size.
Exactly, its not okay to make fun of fat people and "shame" them. But being overweight and obese should NOT be shown as healthy in the media. It is terrible that they are showing "obesity is healthy and normal, some people are just big" because it skews the general perception of obesity. Many people nowadays say that people who are on the low end of healthy are "anorexic thin" and "way too thin". It was never this way back in the the day. But not that everyone is used to seeing so many obese and overweight it has become normal. THAT is the problem.
Except that having a BMI <20 had been shown in many analysis to be strongly correlated with high rates of morbidity and mortality, been after controlling for preexisting illnesses. How high? Higher than "overweight" and "class 1" obesity. Slightly higher than"class 2" obesity. Moreover, outcomes have changed since the smoking rates have dropped.
Lumping "overweight" and all "obese" individuals together makes no statistical sense and less sense for people exhorting on the ills of too much weight.
Have you seen the newest meta-analysis that they did using data for never smokers? I'm not arguing with you, but it changes the old data a bit. Smoking affected the numbers by inversely skewing the data against lower BMI's.
However, being underweight is still as bad as being obese, if I recall correctly off the top of my head.
http://www.bmj.com/content/353/bmj.i21560 -
chloe0wens wrote: »Nope, just nope. I "loved" myself overweight, because I was "worth it" to "treat myself" (etc. etc.). One day I woke up and realised that I disgusted myself and needed to change. Self love and accepting myself led to complacency and increasingly larger pants. Realising that I wasn't genetically destined to be big and that my weight was something I could change, hating looking at myself in mirrors, crying buying clothes, that got me off my *kitten* and out of the fridge.
Preach it!0 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »Noreenmarie1234 wrote: »The problem I have with it is, you are NOT healthy at any size. Both ways- to skinny is unhealthy and to fat is unhealthy. To skinny can give you reproduction issues, muscle and joint issues. To fat can give you heart issues, joint issues, diabetes, and high cholesterol.
However, shaming someone for being fat makes you an *kitten*, human decency is not limited by someone's size.
Exactly, its not okay to make fun of fat people and "shame" them. But being overweight and obese should NOT be shown as healthy in the media. It is terrible that they are showing "obesity is healthy and normal, some people are just big" because it skews the general perception of obesity. Many people nowadays say that people who are on the low end of healthy are "anorexic thin" and "way too thin". It was never this way back in the the day. But not that everyone is used to seeing so many obese and overweight it has become normal. THAT is the problem.
Except that having a BMI <20 had been shown in many analysis to be strongly correlated with high rates of morbidity and mortality, been after controlling for preexisting illnesses. How high? Higher than "overweight" and "class 1" obesity. Slightly higher than"class 2" obesity. Moreover, outcomes have changed since the smoking rates have dropped.
Lumping "overweight" and all "obese" individuals together makes no statistical sense and less sense for people exhorting on the ills of too much weight.
Have you seen the newest meta-analysis that they did using data for never smokers? I'm not arguing with you, but it changes the old data a bit. Smoking affected the numbers by inversely skewing the data against lower BMI's.
However, being underweight is still as bad as being obese, if I recall correctly off the top of my head.
http://www.bmj.com/content/353/bmj.i2156
Yes underweight is bad but the cutoff is 18.5 not 20.3 -
singingflutelady wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »Anorexics have pro-ana groups, obese people have fat-acceptance groups. Its a way of retreating from a society that considers their health to be at risk and instead surrounding themselves with people who are affirming that what they are or what they are doing is okay.
Exactly though I know a lot of people with diagnosed eating disorders who hate hate hate pro ana as it seems a lot of the members are "wannabe" anorexics and glamorize a horrible disease
I would assume the same is true of obese people and fat acceptance that some obese people would hate it. Not sure if there are "wannabe" obese people though, our society does glamorize being thin so I can see the "wannabe" annorexics...but probably not wannabe obese people.0 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Apart from HAES, though -- my knowledge of them is largely based on the descriptions here -- who is saying we can't talk about obesity being a negative or problem? From my observation, this is commonplace, and I have no problem with it.
I am maybe being too literal, but I don't know what is meant by saying society does or doesn't accept obesity. How do we community to a fat person (assuming she has no idea that this is the view, which I think is a false assumption) that being fat is a negative or not acceptable, for example. How it's not healthy is easy (and IMO unobjectionable): that's covered in the press, doctors tell you, there are governmental efforts, wellness programs through insurance, etc.
Actually, the fat acceptance movement holds that speaking of fatness as a negative is fat shaming.
Even saying that it's not healthy isn't acceptable. All of the things you mentioned about the government's efforts, press coverage and doctors? They're all wrong and fat shaming.
Right, but that's why I said other than HAES. I think those people are marginal, and that society as a whole thinks those positions are idiotic, so I'm not concerned that society is going to decide that all these things that are commonplace are awful, terrible things we cannot do. I'm open to an argument that things will change, but I definitely don't see it around me (which again, is good).0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »I'm not a fan of HAES and I think the idea that obesity is perfectly healthy and outside our control is nuts. But that said, I am curious about some things:But I don't think it's okay to open the door to accepting unhealthy behaviors.
What are you concerned about happening that would result in "accepting unhealthy behaviors" more than we as a society always have (in that I'm not going to comment on what someone else chooses to eat, none of my business). Maybe it's different subcultures, but it definitely doesn't seem to me that it's considered preferable to be overweight or desirable at all or that anyone is being told (outside of non mainstream groups) that obesity is healthy. Quite the opposite -- when I was a kid being fat was a bad thing because people thought it was a size of laziness and unattractive, but I don't think people were nearly as conscious of it as a health issue.
I'm pretty unconcerned about obesity being encouraged or even not discouraged socially or by health professionals, so when people claim to be worried about this, I wonder what they mean.Sure, a few pounds here or there isn't likely to cause adverse health effects, similarly a few drinks here and there aren't likely to cause adverse health effects. We should be supportive and be helping one another, no matter the challenges of their journey. No matter their hang ups.
What do you think we should be doing? It might be that we agree on that stuff (education or some such), but from what you say I can't tell if you think it would be useful to go up to random fat people in the grocery store or some such and tell them they eat too much, which -- as a formerly fat person -- I can't imagine being helpful at all.
Now if someone asks me about how I lost weight, sincerely, I'm always happy to be helpful and supportive, and as seeing others lose weight was inspiring to me I hope that my having done so and living an active life is maybe inspiring to some others.We really need to be addressing for what it is, a disorder. Love the people, treat the disease.
Again, what do you mean by this?No one is shaming large people. I think that's just political crap.
I've seen plenty of insults yelled at fat people and the like (was told I was fat and disgusting as a teen even though I objectively was not), and I see a lot of more subtle fat shaming (mocking people for being overweight, not directly to their face, discounting people for being fat).It's okay to not take care of yourself physically, mentally or spirituality? Did the insurance companies come up with this?
Why would the insurance companies come up with it? Their motive is to charge you more if you are more of a health risk (i.e., fat), which isn't exactly like saying it's cool. And now that they can't, really, their motive is to cut costs by pressuring people to lose weight. If insurance companies or the medical establishment could figure out good ways to combat obesity, they'd be all over it. (My insurance plan, like many, has a health and wellness program that focuses a lot on weight -- even though it didn't change what I paid, I liked being able to score well on it and make improvements.)
Also, I never know what people mean when they say something is "not okay." I spent months sleeping far less than is recommended, for example, which is a health risk. Let's agree that's not okay (although I kind of think it's my business). What does that imply to you? That if you know it (since it's less visible than my weight and I don't have to admit to it) that you can come up to me and lecture me? What? I honestly don't understand what you are really saying here.
I don't think it's responsible to not follow the news or not know who the members of the Supreme Court are, or the Cabinet, or how our governmental system works, or basic history. Yet, from what I see, lots and lots of people don't care about that at all. I guess I kind of think that's not okay, that they are choosing to be ignorant and not taking care of their mental development or being a responsible citizen (heck, I think not reading books falls into this category, and yet again many people are in it). Should I proclaim that we all must accept that this is NOT OKAY? And if so, what should I demand?
I'm saying, I don't understand the fat shaming issue.
Saying that someone's opinions can be discounted (on something not having anything to do with weight, to make it clear), because fat. Telling someone they are disgusting, because fat. Going up to someone and telling her that she makes you sick and needs to lose weight. Using "fat" as the main way of undercutting someone's views or attaching mocking photos of fat people to classist commentary (people of Walmart, for example), all strike me as fat shaming in some sense. I didn't experience it much when fat (there were reasons for this and also I'm oblivious), but I got some milder forms of it (and like I said before, even when not actually fat the f word was used to shame me at times), and I've definitely seen it. IMO, this does not have anything to do with charging more if someone uses 2 airplane seats or being told that your weight is a health risk, obviously.I was told by a larger person that they don't like people that work out.
Well, that person was being narrow-minded or ridiculous or projecting insecurities or who knows what. When I was fat (I'm not now, haven't been most of my life) I liked people who work out (even was one, occasionally). But I don't see what it has to do with the shaming issue. Did you feel shamed? If I say I don't like people who take the elevator one floor when they could take the stairs am I shaming? I don't think so -- I would be shaming if I made a rude comment to someone who did (and although occasionally tempted I do not).Ya know, people are *kitten*. They criticize others on childish whims. I could wear something stupid and be ridiculed for it- I don't have to be fat.
True, but it's not polite, and one particular target is fat people.I have no idea why you think confronting "fat" people would be ideal or even a sarcastic solution.
I am genuinely asking what on earth you are suggesting. If you think we need to make it clear that fatness is "not okay" and "not acceptable" in a way beyond what of course we agree is fine and is already done now (doctors and government programs talking about it as a health issue) what do you mean. If you are saying that you think that the message that it's a health issue is not out there, I am mystified how you could think that.1 -
You don't have to accept people's lifestyle choices to accept the person themselves.
You may smoke, I don't - but I can accept you and not accept your choice. That's all I'm saying.
Again I'm talking about individuals not the organization.
I am trying to understand the "I don't accept it" argument. What does it mean to not accept someone's choice to be a smoker?
(This conversation reminds me a bit -- and this is said in a humorous way, as it may be me being dense for not getting it -- of when I got in a cab and the driver said (due to a homeless guy who was asking for money right when I got in) "do you believe in the homeless?" "Um, like do they exist?" I responded.)1 -
Aaron_K123 wrote: »Anorexics have pro-ana groups, obese people have fat-acceptance groups. Its a way of retreating from a society that considers their health to be at risk and instead surrounding themselves with people who are affirming that what they are or what they are doing is okay.
I don't really like the term "fat acceptance," but I'd distinguish between organized groups like HAES or FA (to the extent that's a group) and the general concept of accepting oneself or liking oneself whatever one's size. It is probably difficult for those who have not struggled with self hatred or severe body issues (beyond looking in the mirror and saying "I don't like X" or "Y could be improved" or "I wish my fat didn't linger there, while leaving this other place so easily" -- all of which I think are healthy and normal and where I mostly am now) to understand probably, but for a lot of us the feelings of self-hatred and shame (and I agree that shame is largely internalized, not simply the result of what others say) were extremely counter-productive to doing what is necessary to improve one's health, fitness, appearance, etc.
I think feeling better about myself even when fat helped me get to the point where I cared about being healthier and worked at it, at first (this wasn't that recent) with the idea that I would be as fit and healthy as possible even if I could not lose weight (because for weird reasons I doubted it would work). Doing that meant of course that I did lose weight and get fit. It wasn't as part of a group, but reading people who argued against the dieting obsession (not that I ever was a big dieter, personally) and for self-acceptance really helped me. (One example is Laura Fraser.) Now, had anyone ever said "and you should not want to lose weight and quit if you do" I would have laughed, since I always thought intellectually one could and should lose, if obese, and besides I thought OF COURSE we all want to. I didn't ever think being unfit/overeating was a good or responsible choice. But still I would say that notions of accepting myself and not hating myself helped me. (And I would have considered something like eat less/move more empowering too, if it had existed then, just as I found the logical understanding of calories and nutrition and exercise to be helpful.)
I think it's a shame that this gets grouped in with whacko extremists making odd political statements that most people probably have never even heard of.2 -
singingflutelady wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »Noreenmarie1234 wrote: »The problem I have with it is, you are NOT healthy at any size. Both ways- to skinny is unhealthy and to fat is unhealthy. To skinny can give you reproduction issues, muscle and joint issues. To fat can give you heart issues, joint issues, diabetes, and high cholesterol.
However, shaming someone for being fat makes you an *kitten*, human decency is not limited by someone's size.
Exactly, its not okay to make fun of fat people and "shame" them. But being overweight and obese should NOT be shown as healthy in the media. It is terrible that they are showing "obesity is healthy and normal, some people are just big" because it skews the general perception of obesity. Many people nowadays say that people who are on the low end of healthy are "anorexic thin" and "way too thin". It was never this way back in the the day. But not that everyone is used to seeing so many obese and overweight it has become normal. THAT is the problem.
Except that having a BMI <20 had been shown in many analysis to be strongly correlated with high rates of morbidity and mortality, been after controlling for preexisting illnesses. How high? Higher than "overweight" and "class 1" obesity. Slightly higher than"class 2" obesity. Moreover, outcomes have changed since the smoking rates have dropped.
Lumping "overweight" and all "obese" individuals together makes no statistical sense and less sense for people exhorting on the ills of too much weight.
Have you seen the newest meta-analysis that they did using data for never smokers? I'm not arguing with you, but it changes the old data a bit. Smoking affected the numbers by inversely skewing the data against lower BMI's.
However, being underweight is still as bad as being obese, if I recall correctly off the top of my head.
http://www.bmj.com/content/353/bmj.i2156
Yes underweight is bad but the cutoff is 18.5 not 20.
I'm not sure what your point is. That they were including data in the groups with higher mortality rates (under 20) in the underweight group?0 -
Mary_Anastasia wrote: »I have a problem with this on a personal level. I think big people are beautiful! I think there are lots of big people out there who can kick my butt, lift more than me, outrun me, and swim harder than me. I think you can be healthy and big...
Be careful not to confuse "healthy" with "having some level of physical fitness". They're not the same thing.
By "healthy" I mean zero cholesterol, blood pressure, glucose, liver, etc problems, not necessarily strictly physical abilities.0 -
Packerjohn wrote: »Mary_Anastasia wrote: »I think you can be healthy and big. quote]
Discuss this with any medical professional. Unless someone is a special snowflake issues with overfat will, like the chickens, come home to roost.
Of course, by "healthy" it is meant of an average health sustainable into an average lifespan--> not necessarily a fit and toned person. Of course being overweight is never healthy ITSELF, however, you can have an overweight person who is much healthier than a non-overweight person.1 -
Mary_Anastasia wrote: »Mary_Anastasia wrote: »I have a problem with this on a personal level. I think big people are beautiful! I think there are lots of big people out there who can kick my butt, lift more than me, outrun me, and swim harder than me. I think you can be healthy and big...
Be careful not to confuse "healthy" with "having some level of physical fitness". They're not the same thing.
By "healthy" I mean zero cholesterol, blood pressure, glucose, liver, etc problems, not necessarily strictly physical abilities.
It's completely possible to be overweight and healthy (I was). But the more extra fat a person carries the greater their risk for future disease is increased. The risk factor is about the same has some of the risk factors you mention above. That's why I decided to lose weight. While my blood work was fine now, I knew the odds of it remaining so if I continued to carry around extra fat.
It's impossible to be obese and healthy now that obesity itself is a recognized medical condition. By definition you are unhealthy if you are obese.3 -
Mary_Anastasia wrote: »Mary_Anastasia wrote: »I have a problem with this on a personal level. I think big people are beautiful! I think there are lots of big people out there who can kick my butt, lift more than me, outrun me, and swim harder than me. I think you can be healthy and big...
Be careful not to confuse "healthy" with "having some level of physical fitness". They're not the same thing.
By "healthy" I mean zero cholesterol, blood pressure, glucose, liver, etc problems, not necessarily strictly physical abilities.
At 233lbs and 5'4 5 months ago I had my blood panel done and everything came back in normal range. But I couldn't walk to my car without being out of breath so I'm not sure we can strictly go by blood tests. idk8 -
trigden1991 wrote: »Mary_Anastasia wrote: »I think big people are beautiful! I think there are lots of big people out there who can kick my butt, lift more than me, outrun me, and swim harder than me. I think you can be healthy and big.
Firstly the term "big" should not be used to describe people who are obese. Secondly, it is absurd to say all people of a certain size are beautiful.
Also there are numerous health risks directly related to being overweight/obese.
Some people are just big, though. There are many body types out there. Maybe you're big from tumors, or maybe you're 7feet tall and bulky, or maybe you are some other size/shape that looks "big" or oversized.
All big people, including obese, ARE beautiful, I'm sorry that you don't agree that every single human is beautiful. Of course, fat itself is NOT beautiful, and just like a bad haircut, or a case of depression, it will detract from one's beauty, both physically and emotionally.
There are numerous risks related to being overweight, I never said there weren't. There are numerous risks related to sitting down all day, or eating nothing but red meat, or smoking -> but these are all things done by thin people as well. Risks are just that though: they are not a finite end. I am obese and my cholesterol is too low, blood pressure is low, triglycerides are almost too low, glucose is a little high sometimes but it stays around 95. I have a ton of risk, but again -> it's risk, not a definite.
If you value someone's health based on their weight, it should stand to say you think meth addicts are healthier than an overweight jogger...not meaning to be pushy
just pointing out that's my takeaway from your comment. 2 -
Mary_Anastasia wrote: »Mary_Anastasia wrote: »I have a problem with this on a personal level. I think big people are beautiful! I think there are lots of big people out there who can kick my butt, lift more than me, outrun me, and swim harder than me. I think you can be healthy and big...
Be careful not to confuse "healthy" with "having some level of physical fitness". They're not the same thing.
By "healthy" I mean zero cholesterol, blood pressure, glucose, liver, etc problems, not necessarily strictly physical abilities.
At 233lbs and 5'4 5 months ago I had my blood panel done and everything came back in normal range. But I couldn't walk to my car without being out of breath so I'm not sure we can strictly go by blood tests. idk
Physical abilities definitely do indicate prowess. That must not have been a good feeling, I hope you are doing better these days!2 -
Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Mary_Anastasia wrote: »Mary_Anastasia wrote: »I have a problem with this on a personal level. I think big people are beautiful! I think there are lots of big people out there who can kick my butt, lift more than me, outrun me, and swim harder than me. I think you can be healthy and big...
Be careful not to confuse "healthy" with "having some level of physical fitness". They're not the same thing.
By "healthy" I mean zero cholesterol, blood pressure, glucose, liver, etc problems, not necessarily strictly physical abilities.
It's completely possible to be overweight and healthy (I was). But the more extra fat a person carries the greater their risk for future disease is increased. The risk factor is about the same has some of the risk factors you mention above. That's why I decided to lose weight. While my blood work was fine now, I knew the odds of it remaining so if I continued to carry around extra fat.
It's impossible to be obese and healthy now that obesity itself is a recognized medical condition. By definition you are unhealthy if you are obese.
Yes, the disease of obesity really is with long-term obesity and the effect it has, taxing your systems, over time. Carrying around extra weight is by no means as healthy as one can be. The point of my original reply was that: I am not with the acceptance movement, as nice as it is to recognize the beauty of every individual. I do not believe it's a healthy mindset to believe you do not need improvement, whether you are bedridden or a triathlete, you can always be better.0
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