If Ketogenic diet is the answer to all our problems-why is still based around caloric values?
viren19890
Posts: 778 Member
Hello,
Just wondering-isn't this basically answer to all our prayers. I mean going on a maintenance caloric allowance and then replacing all the carbs with Fats/protein. Voila! we stay at the same weight and everything is replaced with muscle.
I was reading that energy is taken from fats instead of carbs and then when fats are lower (being in a deficit) it'll take away from fat stored in body. All muscle stays intact and we lose fat and fat only.
Are there any studies or research done on this topic? Proper ones not the chocolate helps you lose weight kind.
If this is all true then why isn't it employed by almost everyone?
Body recomp gang should go bonkers over this stuff right?
Just wondering-isn't this basically answer to all our prayers. I mean going on a maintenance caloric allowance and then replacing all the carbs with Fats/protein. Voila! we stay at the same weight and everything is replaced with muscle.
I was reading that energy is taken from fats instead of carbs and then when fats are lower (being in a deficit) it'll take away from fat stored in body. All muscle stays intact and we lose fat and fat only.
Are there any studies or research done on this topic? Proper ones not the chocolate helps you lose weight kind.
If this is all true then why isn't it employed by almost everyone?
Body recomp gang should go bonkers over this stuff right?
0
Replies
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Well if they don't... there's probably a reason for it.1
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You are grossly misinformed.8
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viren19890 wrote: »Hello,
Just wondering-isn't this basically answer to all our prayers. I mean going on a maintenance caloric allowance and then replacing all the carbs with Fats/protein. Voila! we stay at the same weight and everything is replaced with muscle.
I was reading that energy is taken from fats instead of carbs and then when fats are lower (being in a deficit) it'll take away from fat stored in body. All muscle[/url] stays intact and we lose fat and fat only.
Are there any studies or research done on this topic? Proper ones not the chocolate helps you lose weight kind.
If this is all true then why isn't it employed by almost everyone?
Body recomp gang should go bonkers over this stuff right?
Keto can cause problems for some people.
In my case keto seems to be working well and in my case as long as I eat my macro and never going hungry I can maintain at 200 pounds. I do not eat keto for weight loss and body recomp yet it does both in my case.
I left sugar and all forms of grains Oct 2014 hoping for pain management. Pain levels dropped from 7-8 to 2-3 30 days later after 40 years of high levels of pain and remain low eating < 50 grams of carbs daily.
Do not replace Carbs with protein if you want to get into and stay in nutritional ketosis because for most people carbs need to be less than 50 grams daily and protein in the 70-90 grams per day range and you make up the difference with fats to hit your calorie needs. Half of the protein one eats becomes glucose it is like one ate that many more carbs. High protein and keto does not mix.
Nutritional ketosis is muscle sparing in part thanks to chaperone mediated autophagy which leads to reusing junk protein stuck in one's cells. This is one reason people living in nutritional ketosis often start looking younger due to one's skin becoming more healthy looking after the junk protein in skin cells start to get recycled for building muscles, etc. It is all cells that contain junk protein over time.
nature.com/cr/journal/v24/n1/full/cr2013153a.html
Ketosis is not magic but just basic human physiology science. Living on ketones instead of mainly glucose can be hard to get the mind wrapped around.
Google is the best way I have found to learn the concept but after two years I still have a lot more to learn even starting out with an OD degree. One should give themselves lot of time if they want to understand this way of eating.
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viren19890 wrote: »If this is all true then why isn't it employed by almost everyone?
Even if your description of keto was accurate, personally, I would be horrendously miserable without pasta, rice, bread, potatoes, etc. I've lost 76lbs eating 50-60% of my daily calories as carbs and I can keep it up because I'm happy with it and don't feel like I'm missing out on anything. I would fail a Ketogenic diet fairly quickly. Number one rule of dieting, at least for me, is do what works for you.
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yeah that's the thing... Compliance. For those people that do follow the keto woe, it really does work wonderfully for them.
Others simply refuse or feel the need to give up carbs/sugar4 -
I think it works for some people that have problems with BAD carbs.
Like cupcakes, chips, sugary drinks, twinkies, cookies, french fries, candy.
And I think it works because they don't really like to eat veggies and beans.
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JanetYellen wrote: »I think it works for some people that have problems with BAD carbs.
Like cupcakes, chips, sugary drinks, twinkies, cookies, french fries, candy.
And I think it works because they don't really like to eat veggies and beans.
There is no such thing as good or bad carbs. They are just carbs.
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It's just complicated. It's science. I really do think it's more than just cico, but that's a good place to start. Keto helps so many people, it has great merit too.0
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JanetYellen wrote: »I think it works for some people that have problems with BAD carbs.
Like cupcakes, chips, sugary drinks, twinkies, cookies, french fries, candy.
And I think it works because they don't really like to eat veggies and beans.
There is no such thing as good or bad carbs. They are just carbs.
I know what you mean. But some people see "bad carbs" as those they tend to binge on or can't eat in moderation, so cutting them out helps them to stick with a deficit.
If i was going to say bad carbs, I'd choose breakfast cereal, because I love the stuff and have trouble eating it in moderation. They're bad for me, but are good for others who don't have a problem with them
But if I'm going to be brutally honest... My willpower is the "bad" thing in all of this 
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JanetYellen wrote: »I think it works for some people that have problems with BAD carbs.
Like cupcakes, chips, sugary drinks, twinkies, cookies, french fries, candy.
And I think it works because they don't really like to eat veggies and beans.
I eat way more veggies now that I'm low carb than I did eating a more mainstream diet... I just eat smaller quantities of specific types, or eat them less frequently.3 -
I just read a book by Lyle McDonald "Rapid Fat loss" he talks about increasing protein to 1.25 g/lbm for 16-24% BF people -carbs less than 50 grams but then goes to say eat unlimited vegetables.
This threw me off and I put the book aside lol - I mean unlimited vegetables would have calories and would defeat the purpose.1 -
Veggies equal calories plus carbs. Surely eating an unlimited amount is a contradiction to keeping the diet low on carbs and calories.
I'm not familiar with the "rapid fat loss" protocol, so I could be completely off base..0 -
People can do fine with keto compliance if they come to the realization being put in their coffin is the other option.
Like I said keto is just based on human physiology that evolved over time. We are just Flex Fuel machines that can run on glucose and ketone bodies.
There are no bad carbs that we grow in our gardens or were grown in a field somewhere I expect. Processed carbs may or not be in the best interest of our bodies.
I see life potential as four quarters of 30 years each. In a medical sense we know cell health can start to decline after age 30 and by 40 most of us know we are past our prime. Most people will make it to age 60. The third quarter takes about a bunch of people. My 96 year old neighbor just pasted away a few weeks ago. Those who make it to the four quarter seldom make it past 115-116 per Google.
The 18-30 age group will still have most of their high school class still alive so a crystal clear view that death is coming has not dawned on most of the group. When our parents/guardians die then we know we are next in line to die.
We are all free to eat the way we desire without others harassing us. We are free to smoke with the understanding it will does increase the risk of our premature death.
MFP is the same as BITOG (Bob is the oil Guy) forums in that both food and motor oil get talked to death and we defend our position like many do religion and politics.
Food and motor oil are important but most of both are just fine and will do a good job.
I found the macro that cut down my internal inflammation and quickly my health started improving. When it was carbs (a non essential food group) that was proven by elimination at the age of 63 to be causing 40 years of serious health issues and deformities leaving off the processed carbs was easy after two weeks and nearly two years later my craves are still gone.
Our brains were designed to control what we eat and how much of it we eat.
I still like the taste of sugar and have the memories pies and cakes. I just have no craving to pick them up and eat them. I like their looks and taste but I do not have a burning desire to touch, taste or eat them like I did before going off of sugar and all forms of all grains cold turkey.
My way of eating is not restrictive because it gives me a better quality of life. Not running around on my wife is not restrictive because it gives me a better quality of life.
What we eat is just a simple decision that we make and nothing less or nothing more.
I expect our thought processes may do many of us more harm than the kind of food we eat.
We evolved without soda pop and processed food we all agree. We also evolved without cell phones, cars, Rx meds, etc, etc.
I have no desire to go back to the stone age way of life and that includes their diet and food supply. 3 -
viren19890 wrote: »I just read a book by Lyle McDonald "Rapid Fat loss" he talks about increasing protein to 1.25 g/lbm for 16-24% BF people -carbs less than 50 grams but then goes to say eat unlimited vegetables.
This threw me off and I put the book aside lol - I mean unlimited vegetables would have calories and would defeat the purpose.
The PSMF is a rapid fat loss diet, basically a crash diet, with very low calories . Lyle has your fats and calories down so low in that diet that eating a copious amount of vegetables would not take you out of a deficit.4 -
viren19890 wrote: »I just read a book by Lyle McDonald "Rapid Fat loss" he talks about increasing protein to 1.25 g/lbm for 16-24% BF people -carbs less than 50 grams but then goes to say eat unlimited vegetables.
This threw me off and I put the book aside lol - I mean unlimited vegetables would have calories and would defeat the purpose.
@viren19890 most books are like that. Some of us convert carbs to fat very well so the <50 grams works for us. Most whole foods contain fiber, minerals, vitamins which may not be the case with highly processed food that has chemically been altered. Few people think fresh meat is worse for health than a cheap hot dog.
If you find a way of eating that is interesting give it a try for 90 days is you wish and decide what your body is telling to about that way of eating and go from that point.0 -
And to add to that-veg has a lot of fiber so even after you fill up with them, it's easy to meet the 50g net carbs once you subtract the fiber. Also, he does mention not to eat veg higher in sugar.arditarose wrote: »viren19890 wrote: »I just read a book by Lyle McDonald "Rapid Fat loss" he talks about increasing protein to 1.25 g/lbm for 16-24% BF people -carbs less than 50 grams but then goes to say eat unlimited vegetables.
This threw me off and I put the book aside lol - I mean unlimited vegetables would have calories and would defeat the purpose.
The PSMF is a rapid fat loss diet, basically a crash diet, with very low calories . Lyle has your fats and calories down so low in that diet that eating a copious amount of vegetables would not take you out of a deficit.4 -
Lol, regardless of eating style, a deficit will result in weightloss. If you have other factors, like emotional eating or addictive eating, no diet style will help combat that until you get your eating habits helped.2
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arditarose wrote: »viren19890 wrote: »I just read a book by Lyle McDonald "Rapid Fat loss" he talks about increasing protein to 1.25 g/lbm for 16-24% BF people -carbs less than 50 grams but then goes to say eat unlimited vegetables.
This threw me off and I put the book aside lol - I mean unlimited vegetables would have calories and would defeat the purpose.
The PSMF is a rapid fat loss diet, basically a crash diet, with very low calories . Lyle has your fats and calories down so low in that diet that eating a copious amount of vegetables would not take you out of a deficit.
This. Plus he changed that in the 2nd edition so the OP most likely has a pirated copy3 -
JanetYellen wrote: »I think it works for some people that have problems with BAD carbs.
Like cupcakes, chips, sugary drinks, twinkies, cookies, french fries, candy.
And I think it works because they don't really like to eat veggies and beans.
5/7 of those BAD carbs have just as much fat as carbs...4 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »viren19890 wrote: »I just read a book by Lyle McDonald "Rapid Fat loss" he talks about increasing protein to 1.25 g/lbm for 16-24% BF people -carbs less than 50 grams but then goes to say eat unlimited vegetables.
This threw me off and I put the book aside lol - I mean unlimited vegetables would have calories and would defeat the purpose.
@viren19890 most books are like that. Some of us convert carbs to fat very well so the <50 grams works for us. Most whole foods contain fiber, minerals, vitamins which may not be the case with highly processed food that has chemically been altered. Few people think fresh meat is worse for health than a cheap hot dog.
If you find a way of eating that is interesting give it a try for 90 days is you wish and decide what your body is telling to about that way of eating and go from that point.
One does not simply
convert carbs to fat in a calorie deficit.10 -
stevencloser wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »viren19890 wrote: »I just read a book by Lyle McDonald "Rapid Fat loss" he talks about increasing protein to 1.25 g/lbm for 16-24% BF people -carbs less than 50 grams but then goes to say eat unlimited vegetables.
This threw me off and I put the book aside lol - I mean unlimited vegetables would have calories and would defeat the purpose.
@viren19890 most books are like that. Some of us convert carbs to fat very well so the <50 grams works for us. Most whole foods contain fiber, minerals, vitamins which may not be the case with highly processed food that has chemically been altered. Few people think fresh meat is worse for health than a cheap hot dog.
If you find a way of eating that is interesting give it a try for 90 days is you wish and decide what your body is telling to about that way of eating and go from that point.
One does not simply
convert carbs to fat in a calorie deficit.
Or in a moderate surplus, for that matter. Only when carb intake surpasses TDEE does DNL occur to a significant degree.3 -
What the heck happened here. Guys layman terms.
Should I go on RFL diet for my last 3 weeks of cut or just reduce the calories and keep the macros same? Currently I'm on 1900 cals a day maintenance is 2700 for me. Should I just cut down to 1500 or so ?
Funny thing is I'm a vegetarian no meat/seafood/eggs -even milk is Almond now. So it might not be hard eating unlimited vegetables but bumping up protein levels to 200 g from current 143 grams and fats to very high level will be hard.
Vegetable eating is unlimited so I can probably eat salads lol (exclusion of pea, corn, carrots)
Goal is to drop most amount of fat possible in 3 weeks (17 June)
If this was a university course I would've needed so much extra tutoring.0 -
FunkyTobias wrote: »arditarose wrote: »viren19890 wrote: »I just read a book by Lyle McDonald "Rapid Fat loss" he talks about increasing protein to 1.25 g/lbm for 16-24% BF people -carbs less than 50 grams but then goes to say eat unlimited vegetables.
This threw me off and I put the book aside lol - I mean unlimited vegetables would have calories and would defeat the purpose.
The PSMF is a rapid fat loss diet, basically a crash diet, with very low calories . Lyle has your fats and calories down so low in that diet that eating a copious amount of vegetables would not take you out of a deficit.
This. Plus he changed that in the 2nd edition so the OP most likely has a pirated copy
There are two books Ultimate nutrition 2.0 and Rapid fat loss before that was Ketogenic diet.
Rapid fat loss was posted on Muscleandstrength forum IIRC
Are you saying there is Rapid fat loss 2.0?0 -
FunkyTobias wrote: »arditarose wrote: »viren19890 wrote: »I just read a book by Lyle McDonald "Rapid Fat loss" he talks about increasing protein to 1.25 g/lbm for 16-24% BF people -carbs less than 50 grams but then goes to say eat unlimited vegetables.
This threw me off and I put the book aside lol - I mean unlimited vegetables would have calories and would defeat the purpose.
The PSMF is a rapid fat loss diet, basically a crash diet, with very low calories . Lyle has your fats and calories down so low in that diet that eating a copious amount of vegetables would not take you out of a deficit.
This. Plus he changed that in the 2nd edition so the OP most likely has a pirated copy
Yeah I was pretty sure he didn't say just eat as many vegetables as you want.1 -
viren19890 wrote: »What the heck happened here. Guys layman terms.
Should I go on RFL diet for my last 3 weeks of cut or just reduce the calories and keep the macros same? Currently I'm on 1900 cals a day maintenance is 2700 for me. Should I just cut down to 1500 or so ?
Funny thing is I'm a vegetarian no meat/seafood/eggs -even milk is Almond now. So it might not be hard eating unlimited vegetables but bumping up protein levels to 200 g from current 143 grams and fats to very high level will be hard.
Vegetable eating is unlimited so I can probably eat salads lol (exclusion of pea, corn, carrots)
Goal is to drop most amount of fat possible in 3 weeks (17 June)
If this was a university course I would've needed so much extra tutoring.
I don't suggest the RFL for you, no. You didn't even read the book.1 -
True! But there are foods with carbs that are nutrient poor and low fiber and foods with carbs that are nutrient rich and high fiber.JanetYellen wrote: »I think it works for some people that have problems with BAD carbs.
Like cupcakes, chips, sugary drinks, twinkies, cookies, french fries, candy.
And I think it works because they don't really like to eat veggies and beans.
There is no such thing as good or bad carbs. They are just carbs.
What a great book title that would be!
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Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »
True! But there are foods with carbs that are nutrient poor and low fiber and foods with carbs that are nutrient rich and high fiber.JanetYellen wrote: »I think it works for some people that have problems with BAD carbs.
Like cupcakes, chips, sugary drinks, twinkies, cookies, french fries, candy.
And I think it works because they don't really like to eat veggies and beans.
There is no such thing as good or bad carbs. They are just carbs.
What a great book title that would be!
"Hi Fi v Lo Fi ~ A Layman's Guide to Fine Tuning Your Metabolism".
1 -
Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »
True! But there are foods with carbs that are nutrient poor and low fiber and foods with carbs that are nutrient rich and high fiber.JanetYellen wrote: »I think it works for some people that have problems with BAD carbs.
Like cupcakes, chips, sugary drinks, twinkies, cookies, french fries, candy.
And I think it works because they don't really like to eat veggies and beans.
There is no such thing as good or bad carbs. They are just carbs.
What a great book title that would be!
"Hi Fi v Lo Fi ~ A Layman's Guide to Fine Tuning Your Metabolism".
eh?0 -
Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »
True! But there are foods with carbs that are nutrient poor and low fiber and foods with carbs that are nutrient rich and high fiber.JanetYellen wrote: »I think it works for some people that have problems with BAD carbs.
Like cupcakes, chips, sugary drinks, twinkies, cookies, french fries, candy.
And I think it works because they don't really like to eat veggies and beans.
There is no such thing as good or bad carbs. They are just carbs.
What a great book title that would be!
"Hi Fi v Lo Fi ~ A Layman's Guide to Fine Tuning Your Metabolism".
240 pages. *open to first page*
"build muscle and move more"
239 blank pages follow4 -
Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »
True! But there are foods with carbs that are nutrient poor and low fiber and foods with carbs that are nutrient rich and high fiber.JanetYellen wrote: »I think it works for some people that have problems with BAD carbs.
Like cupcakes, chips, sugary drinks, twinkies, cookies, french fries, candy.
And I think it works because they don't really like to eat veggies and beans.
There is no such thing as good or bad carbs. They are just carbs.
What a great book title that would be!
"Hi Fi v Lo Fi ~ A Layman's Guide to Fine Tuning Your Metabolism".
eh?Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »
True! But there are foods with carbs that are nutrient poor and low fiber and foods with carbs that are nutrient rich and high fiber.JanetYellen wrote: »I think it works for some people that have problems with BAD carbs.
Like cupcakes, chips, sugary drinks, twinkies, cookies, french fries, candy.
And I think it works because they don't really like to eat veggies and beans.
There is no such thing as good or bad carbs. They are just carbs.
What a great book title that would be!
"Hi Fi v Lo Fi ~ A Layman's Guide to Fine Tuning Your Metabolism".
eh?
Alternative book title...
Hi Fi - high fibre
Lo Fi - low fibre
Fine Tuning - because hi fi and lo fi are music terms
It would make a fortune!3
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