If Ketogenic diet is the answer to all our problems-why is still based around caloric values?

Options
13

Replies

  • WBB55
    WBB55 Posts: 4,131 Member
    edited May 2016
    Options
    viren19890 wrote: »
    Only protein powder is Whey from a company.
    Yes but it comprises 1/3 of your total calories. It's always best for health if your nutrition/calories comes from varied sources.

    For 21 days... meh. You probably won't do long term damage.

    Edit to add: that's whey? Holy moly, then eat some cheese and cottage cheese and greek yogurt... Shred some parmesan on those salads. Butter up those veggies.
  • SLLRunner
    SLLRunner Posts: 12,942 Member
    Options
    viren19890 wrote: »
    SLLRunner wrote: »
    viren19890 wrote: »
    This is the best I could customize my diet for 21 days. Starting monday.

    Why are you eating oil?
    auddii wrote: »
    Granted, I haven't read the dieting book, but what's with two spoonfuls of straight oil? It would seem that if you're doing pretty low calorie, wouldn't you want to go for higher volume foods to help you feel satiated?

    lol I'll be using those as dressing on top of my salad. That's one way I found to increase fats in my diet.

    Ohhhhh. Didn't know that. ;)
  • GaleHawkins
    GaleHawkins Posts: 8,159 Member
    Options
    stevencloser wrote: »
    GaleHawkins wrote: »
    viren19890 wrote: »
    I just read a book by Lyle McDonald "Rapid Fat loss" he talks about increasing protein to 1.25 g/lbm for 16-24% BF people -carbs less than 50 grams but then goes to say eat unlimited vegetables.

    This threw me off and I put the book aside lol - I mean unlimited vegetables would have calories and would defeat the purpose.

    @viren19890 most books are like that. Some of us convert carbs to fat very well so the <50 grams works for us. Most whole foods contain fiber, minerals, vitamins which may not be the case with highly processed food that has chemically been altered. Few people think fresh meat is worse for health than a cheap hot dog.

    If you find a way of eating that is interesting give it a try for 90 days is you wish and decide what your body is telling to about that way of eating and go from that point.

    One does not simply
    convert carbs to fat in a calorie deficit.

    The way to prevent fat is to burn all carbs eaten shortly after they are digested. Carbs can only go to fat after some conversion processes.
  • viren19890
    viren19890 Posts: 778 Member
    Options
    FunkyTobias wrote: »
    viren19890 wrote: »
    arditarose wrote: »
    viren19890 wrote: »
    What the heck happened here. Guys layman terms.

    Should I go on RFL diet for my last 3 weeks of cut or just reduce the calories and keep the macros same? Currently I'm on 1900 cals a day maintenance is 2700 for me. Should I just cut down to 1500 or so ?

    Funny thing is I'm a vegetarian no meat/seafood/eggs -even milk is Almond now. So it might not be hard eating unlimited vegetables but bumping up protein levels to 200 g from current 143 grams and fats to very high level will be hard.

    Vegetable eating is unlimited so I can probably eat salads lol (exclusion of pea, corn, carrots)

    Goal is to drop most amount of fat possible in 3 weeks (17 June)

    If this was a university course I would've needed so much extra tutoring.


    I don't suggest the RFL for you, no. You didn't even read the book.

    I was on page 33 where he specifically mentions eating unlimited vegetables. I kept the book on the side to ask questions. Not running away from reading it. I'll finish it tonight.


    " With the exception
    of peas, carrots and corn, and beets (the starchy vegetables which contain a lot of carbohydrate) which
    are off limits except in tiny amounts, you can (and should) eat basically an unlimited amount of
    vegetables. This will give you something crunchy to chew on, keep you full, and keep you regular.
    Veggies can also provide snacks in between meals to help keep hunger at bay. Since you probably
    need extra sodium anyhow (see below), a cucumber or bag of celery and a salt shaker can help with
    munchies for snacking. Vegetables also provides myriad nutrients that are valuable to health."

    From the book, there is only one book based on "Rapid fat loss" -not sure why the poster is talking about a new book when there isn't.

    Only updated book is "Ultimate nutrition 2.0"

    Sigh
    Originally Posted by lylemcd (the author) View Post
    No, it doesn't. Well, the first edition that basically only exists in pirated form does. But the second edition clarifies this as does THE FAQ AT THE TOP OF THIS FORUM.

    http://www.forums.lylemcdonald.com/showthread.php?t=28793

    I stand corrected and thanks for pointing it out.
  • VividVegan
    VividVegan Posts: 200 Member
    edited May 2016
    Options
    SLLRunner wrote: »
    JanetYellen wrote: »
    I think it works for some people that have problems with BAD carbs.
    Like cupcakes, chips, sugary drinks, twinkies, cookies, french fries, candy.
    And I think it works because they don't really like to eat veggies and beans.

    There is no such thing as good or bad carbs. They are just carbs.

    I think they're referring to simple vs complex carbs. Simple carbs are found in refined flours, white rice, table sugar, most desserts, etc. Complex are oats, whole wheat/grains, vegetables, etc (commonly consumed by us who do intense strength training and/or sprints). In terms of CICO carbs are carbs but if you want better body composition, I'd suggest less junk food and more nutrient dense foods. This is exactly how my weight lifting friends (guys and girls) and I leaned out. Two of us actually (a female friend and I) were previously skinny-fat because we mostly ate unhealthy foods. Yes CICO is important but in terms of body comp, so are nutrients.
  • klkateri
    klkateri Posts: 432 Member
    Options
    JanetYellen wrote: »
    I think it works for some people that have problems with BAD carbs.
    Like cupcakes, chips, sugary drinks, twinkies, cookies, french fries, candy.
    And I think it works because they don't really like to eat veggies and beans.

    I LOVE VEGGIES, FRUIT AND BEANS IN ANY WAY I CAN GET THEM INTO MY BODY!! However, they didn't like me. My fasting blood sugar was 101 and my doctor pretty told me keep doing what i'm doing or insulin in 20 years. I went Keto (with my doctors advise and recommendations). I really was the poster child for a fat person who ate really healthy but was still fat. Lots of whole wheat, low fat dairy, veggies, fruits, lean meats, and not a lot of sugary treats like pastries or the like. It was crazy frustrating to be doing everything right and nothing really worked.

    In January I started Keto and now, I'm down a total of 40+ pounds, half of them lost on Keto. I don't know any of my numbers (Chloesteral, blood sugar, etc.) until my physical this summer. BUT I feel better, I have more energy and even my IBS which has always been a really bad issue has been getting better and better.

    I think this WoE has been great for me. I still do watch my CICO but I also don't stress over it like I used to. If I have a hungry day I eat and know it will balance out.
  • lemurcat12
    lemurcat12 Posts: 30,886 Member
    Options
    GaleHawkins wrote: »
    stevencloser wrote: »
    GaleHawkins wrote: »
    viren19890 wrote: »
    I just read a book by Lyle McDonald "Rapid Fat loss" he talks about increasing protein to 1.25 g/lbm for 16-24% BF people -carbs less than 50 grams but then goes to say eat unlimited vegetables.

    This threw me off and I put the book aside lol - I mean unlimited vegetables would have calories and would defeat the purpose.

    @viren19890 most books are like that. Some of us convert carbs to fat very well so the <50 grams works for us. Most whole foods contain fiber, minerals, vitamins which may not be the case with highly processed food that has chemically been altered. Few people think fresh meat is worse for health than a cheap hot dog.

    If you find a way of eating that is interesting give it a try for 90 days is you wish and decide what your body is telling to about that way of eating and go from that point.

    One does not simply
    convert carbs to fat in a calorie deficit.

    The way to prevent fat is to burn all carbs eaten shortly after they are digested. Carbs can only go to fat after some conversion processes.

    The way to prevent fat gain is to eat fewer calories than you burn. The timing of your carb consumption doesn't not matter unless it helps your workouts/recoveries (as it will in some cases).
  • Sabine_Stroehm
    Sabine_Stroehm Posts: 19,263 Member
    Options
    msf74 wrote: »
    Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »
    msf74 wrote: »
    Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »
    SLLRunner wrote: »
    JanetYellen wrote: »
    I think it works for some people that have problems with BAD carbs.
    Like cupcakes, chips, sugary drinks, twinkies, cookies, french fries, candy.
    And I think it works because they don't really like to eat veggies and beans.

    There is no such thing as good or bad carbs. They are just carbs.
    True! But there are foods with carbs that are nutrient poor and low fiber and foods with carbs that are nutrient rich and high fiber.
    What a great book title that would be! :D:D

    "Hi Fi v Lo Fi ~ A Layman's Guide to Fine Tuning Your Metabolism".

    eh?
    Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »
    msf74 wrote: »
    Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »
    SLLRunner wrote: »
    JanetYellen wrote: »
    I think it works for some people that have problems with BAD carbs.
    Like cupcakes, chips, sugary drinks, twinkies, cookies, french fries, candy.
    And I think it works because they don't really like to eat veggies and beans.

    There is no such thing as good or bad carbs. They are just carbs.
    True! But there are foods with carbs that are nutrient poor and low fiber and foods with carbs that are nutrient rich and high fiber.
    What a great book title that would be! :D:D

    "Hi Fi v Lo Fi ~ A Layman's Guide to Fine Tuning Your Metabolism".

    eh?

    Alternative book title...

    Hi Fi - high fibre
    Lo Fi - low fibre
    Fine Tuning - because hi fi and lo fi are music terms ;)

    It would make a fortune!

    Ah. Thanks for clarifying your post.
  • viren19890
    viren19890 Posts: 778 Member
    Options
    ninerbuff wrote: »
    viren19890 wrote: »
    Hello,

    Just wondering-isn't this basically answer to all our prayers. I mean going on a maintenance caloric allowance and then replacing all the carbs with Fats/protein. Voila! we stay at the same weight and everything is replaced with muscle.

    I was reading that energy is taken from fats instead of carbs and then when fats are lower (being in a deficit) it'll take away from fat stored in body. All muscle stays intact and we lose fat and fat only.

    Are there any studies or research done on this topic? Proper ones not the chocolate helps you lose weight kind.

    If this is all true then why isn't it employed by almost everyone?
    Body recomp gang should go bonkers over this stuff right?
    Ketogenic diets aren't optimal for trying to put on muscle mass. There are signaling processes that aren't activated properly when trying to be anabolic. One of them is mTOR. Carbs help with protein synthesis, insulin, and recovery which get highly reduced on a ketogenic diet.

    Other issues:

    Insulin is a potent anti-catabolic hormone.
    Low-carb diets are currently being used to reduce prostate cancer via reducing IGF-1.
    Ketogenic diets promote acidosis in muscle (reduced Ph), which can increase muscle tissue proteolysis.
    Ketogenic diets turn on genes for catabolism. (SEE AMPK section).
    Reduced exercise intensity
    Carbs suppress cortisol
    Lowers SHBG (i.e., lowers free testosterone)

    The study was published in the Journal of Applied Physiology and reported that performing resistance training in a glycogen-depleted state results in impaired genes for muscle hypertrophy. The study follows a 2005 study in which researchers from the Human Performance Lab in Indiana reported that a glycogen-depletion diet blunts the expression of the muscle protein Akt. Akt, or protein kinase B (PKB), is an important molecule in cellular signaling. Akt is also able to induce protein synthesis pathways and is therefore a key signaling protein in the cellular pathways that lead to skeletal muscle hypertrophy and general tissue growth.

    Creer A, Gallagher P, Slivka D, Jemiolo B, Fink W, Trappe S. Influence of muscle glycogen availability on ERK1/2 and Akt signaling after resistance exercise in human skeletal muscle. J Appl Physiol, 2005 Sep;99(3):950-6.

    There are other studies showing it's not conducive to muscle building. I just don't have time to post them this morning.

    A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
    IDEA Fitness member
    Kickboxing Certified Instructor
    Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
    9285851.png

    Oh damn! thanks a lot bro.
  • viren19890
    viren19890 Posts: 778 Member
    Options
    I read further into the book and it's extremely hard for me to maintain or even do that "diet".

    Meat eaters can do this diet with no problems. This is specifically designed for short term results and then gradually going back into normal deficit or maintenance.

    I'll have to drink protein shake after protein shake to meet my 200 grams requirement. Even the best vegetables with high protein and low carbs wont work because it'll push me over the allowed limit.

    Fat aren't allowed either which I thought was essential for ketogenic diet but this diet plan is rapid and not ketogenic oriented.

    Being a vegetarian I don't know where I can get that amount of protein with the attached carbs and fats. Even my protein shake.

    The best I can do is reduce my calories to 1500 a day at the current Macro levels maybe with some up and down.

    Thanks all that posted. Imma go collect pieces of my shattered dreams.
  • paperpudding
    paperpudding Posts: 9,095 Member
    Options
    If this is all true then why isn't it employed by almost everyone?

    Can't speak for everyone else but it isn't employed by me because I like lots of yummy food with carbs and sugar and I don't want to stop eating them.

    And have lost the weight I wanted to lose and stayed in good health doing so.
  • GaleHawkins
    GaleHawkins Posts: 8,159 Member
    Options
    Keep in mind keto is not for weight loss.

    As one's general health improves weight loss is just a side effect based on my personal experience of the past year. I think most people that become obese first have health issues and we tried to eat more to feel better because initially it worked.

    Any keto research for a period of <24 months the results will have limited value to the population in general based on my experience.
  • arditarose
    arditarose Posts: 15,573 Member
    edited May 2016
    Options
    viren19890 wrote: »
    I read further into the book and it's extremely hard for me to maintain or even do that "diet".

    Meat eaters can do this diet with no problems. This is specifically designed for short term results and then gradually going back into normal deficit or maintenance.

    I'll have to drink protein shake after protein shake to meet my 200 grams requirement. Even the best vegetables with high protein and low carbs wont work because it'll push me over the allowed limit.

    Fat aren't allowed either which I thought was essential for ketogenic diet but this diet plan is rapid and not ketogenic oriented.

    Being a vegetarian I don't know where I can get that amount of protein with the attached carbs and fats. Even my protein shake.

    The best I can do is reduce my calories to 1500 a day at the current Macro levels maybe with some up and down.

    Thanks all that posted. Imma go collect pieces of my shattered dreams.

    RFL is not a ketogenic diet...

    Also, it is not easy for meat eaters either. It is an extremely low calorie diet with no fat. It's painful.
  • srecupid
    srecupid Posts: 660 Member
    Options
    Because the only way to lose weight is through a caloric deficit. It just might be easier to lose weight for some people if they have a strict set of rules that completely eliminate food groups from their diet.
  • Sabine_Stroehm
    Sabine_Stroehm Posts: 19,263 Member
    Options
    SLLRunner wrote: »
    Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »
    SLLRunner wrote: »
    JanetYellen wrote: »
    I think it works for some people that have problems with BAD carbs.
    Like cupcakes, chips, sugary drinks, twinkies, cookies, french fries, candy.
    And I think it works because they don't really like to eat veggies and beans.

    There is no such thing as good or bad carbs. They are just carbs.
    True! But there are foods with carbs that are nutrient poor and low fiber and foods with carbs that are nutrient rich and high fiber.
    What a great book title that would be! :D:D

    People are not discussing nutrition, they are discussing weight loss and the keto diet. Still, there are no good or bad carbs.....there are only carbs. :D:D
    Correct. People are only discussing weight loss. Not nutrition. I won't argue with you there. cheers
  • maxit
    maxit Posts: 880 Member
    edited May 2016
    Options
    viren19890 wrote: »
    What the heck happened here. Guys layman terms.

    Should I go on RFL diet for my last 3 weeks of cut or just reduce the calories and keep the macros same? Currently I'm on 1900 cals a day maintenance is 2700 for me. Should I just cut down to 1500 or so ?

    Funny thing is I'm a vegetarian no meat/seafood/eggs -even milk is Almond now. So it might not be hard eating unlimited vegetables but bumping up protein levels to 200 g from current 143 grams and fats to very high level will be hard.

    Vegetable eating is unlimited so I can probably eat salads lol (exclusion of pea, corn, carrots)

    Goal is to drop most amount of fat possible in 3 weeks (17 June)

    If this was a university course I would've needed so much extra tutoring.

    There is a part of RFL that discusses its usefulness & limitations, as well as the over all utility of having a more gentle deficit. If you are committed to remaining a vegesaurus that consumes no animal products, I don't see how you could do RFL. (If you go to McDonald's Body Recomposition Forum, you can read through the "stickies.")

    For folks who are not familiar with RFL: It's a type of protein-sparing modified fast (therefore, falls into the Very Low Calorie diet category) that is focused on providing the body with essential nutrients to provide for maximal fat loss and minimal lean body weight (not none, mind you) loss. It is modified from the usual PSMF protocols to include leafy, fibrous vegetables and omega-3 fatty acids. It is meant to be short-term (2-6 weeks for most people), and has a slightly different protocol for folks in different fat-mass groups. Ketosis is not a required part of this diet. There are planned diet breaks that involve carb ingestion to minimize unhelpful mechanisms of appetite hormones from kicking in, ranging from one day to two weeks depending on fat-mass category.
    Edited to add: The protocol specifically calls for modification to exercise intensity, as well.


  • Hovis15351
    Hovis15351 Posts: 9 Member
    Options
    A small amount of carbs from low carb veg and salad leaves are necessary for vitamins and minerals, even if you stick to 12-15g (450g in total low carb veg weight) + as someone has said the importance of fibre contained in the veg.

    Do not forget too much protein is bad for the kidneys, hence Atkins and other such eating plans have modified downwards the amount at each meal and in terms of snacks and consumtion of natural fats raised.

Categories