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Non-GMO foods aren't any safer or healthier
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The most common victims of theobromine poisoning are dogs,[3][4] for which it can be fatal. The toxic dose for cats is even lower than for dogs.[5] However, cats are less prone to eating chocolate since they are unable to taste sweetness.[6] Theobromine is less toxic to rats, mice, and humans, who all have an LD50 of about 1,000 mg/kg.
In dogs, the biological half-life of theobromine is 17.5 hours; in severe cases, clinical symptoms of theobromine poisoning can persist for 72 hours.[7] Medical treatment performed by a veterinarian involves inducing vomiting within two hours of ingestion and administration of benzodiazepines or barbiturates for seizures, antiarrhythmics for heart arrhythmias, and fluid diuresis. Theobromine is also suspected to induce right atrial cardiomyopathy after long term exposure at levels equivalent to ~15 g of dark chocolate per kg of weight and per day.[8] According to the Merck Veterinary Manual, baker's chocolate of approximately 1.3 g/kg (0.02 oz/lb) of a dog's body weight is sufficient to cause symptoms of toxicity.[9] For example, 0.4 ounces (11 g) of baker's chocolate would be enough to produce mild symptoms in a 20-pound (9.1 kg) dog, while a 25% cacao chocolate bar (like milk chocolate) would be 25% as toxic as the same dose of baker's chocolate.[10] One ounce of milk chocolate per pound of body weight is a potentially lethal dose in dogs.[9]
Chemists with the USDA are investigating the use of theobromine as a toxicant to control coyotes that prey on livestock.[11]2 -
Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »Worrying that BT toxin is going to poke holes in our commensal prokaria or our own gut lining because it pokes holes in specific insects midguts is like worrying that a holepunch is going to punch holes in the ozone layer because it punches holes in paper.
This may be the most ridiculous post I've seen to date on this site.
Why? There is about as much reason to worry that an insect midgut enterotoxin is going to poke holes in a bacterial cell wall as there is to worry that a hole punch is going to hurt the ozone layer. In otherwords...no reason.
Just because something punches a hole in one thing doesn't mean you can just transfer that concern to anything you don't want holes punched into. That was my point and I think it stands.
If you think that is silly then what is the specific mechanism by which BT is going to poke holes in the cell walls of commensal prokaryia or our own intestinal lining that has you concerned?
It's silly because comparing two living organisms consuming the same thing is a very far cry from trying to put ozone into a hole punch. It's not just comparing apples to oranges, it's comparing apples to a manual drill press.
If you want to compare living organisms consuming the same thing:
Garlic is toxic to cats
Theobromine (found in chocolate) is poisonous to dogs and cats
Avocados are toxic to some birds
Shall I go on?
Just because one thing is bad for a certain living thing does not mean it's bad for all living things.
There are more concrete concerns involving our food supply that are real things to worry about right now.
Go on as long as you like, but you might want to check your facts first.
Chocolate is not poisonous to dogs (not sure about cats). It's a common allergen for dogs. Many dogs can eat chocolate without any negative reactions.
And then if you could somehow relate your list to the threads topic that would also be cool.
Theobromine is not poisonous to dogs?
And you can't see the relation between BT killing specific insects but not our intestinal flora, and theobromine being toxic to some animals but not to humans?
I don't see the relation between your list and my comment about a silly post comparing 2 completely different things. I also don't see the relation to the OP (GMO being safe/unsafe).
To spell it out:
Bt is toxic to bugs. Humans, and microorganisms in our gut, do not have receptors for the protein that makes Bt toxic to bugs. Therefore, Bt is not a concern for our consumption, whether it's in GMO or sprayed pesticide form.
You didn't like Aaron's analogy because it wasn't comparing living organisms, so Jane gave you a list of living organisms that react to foods differently. We can consume things that are toxic to other living organisms. Garlic won't hurt us, but it will hurt cats. Bt won't hurt us, but it will hurt bugs.6 -
Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »Worrying that BT toxin is going to poke holes in our commensal prokaria or our own gut lining because it pokes holes in specific insects midguts is like worrying that a holepunch is going to punch holes in the ozone layer because it punches holes in paper.
This may be the most ridiculous post I've seen to date on this site.
Why? There is about as much reason to worry that an insect midgut enterotoxin is going to poke holes in a bacterial cell wall as there is to worry that a hole punch is going to hurt the ozone layer. In otherwords...no reason.
Just because something punches a hole in one thing doesn't mean you can just transfer that concern to anything you don't want holes punched into. That was my point and I think it stands.
If you think that is silly then what is the specific mechanism by which BT is going to poke holes in the cell walls of commensal prokaryia or our own intestinal lining that has you concerned?
It's silly because comparing two living organisms consuming the same thing is a very far cry from trying to put ozone into a hole punch. It's not just comparing apples to oranges, it's comparing apples to a manual drill press.
If you want to compare living organisms consuming the same thing:
Garlic is toxic to cats
Theobromine (found in chocolate) is poisonous to dogs and cats
Avocados are toxic to some birds
Shall I go on?
Just because one thing is bad for a certain living thing does not mean it's bad for all living things.
There are more concrete concerns involving our food supply that are real things to worry about right now.
Go on as long as you like, but you might want to check your facts first.
Chocolate is not poisonous to dogs (not sure about cats). It's a common allergen for dogs. Many dogs can eat chocolate without any negative reactions.
And then if you could somehow relate your list to the threads topic that would also be cool.
Chocolate is most definitely poisonous to dogs:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theobromine_poisoning
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Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »Worrying that BT toxin is going to poke holes in our commensal prokaria or our own gut lining because it pokes holes in specific insects midguts is like worrying that a holepunch is going to punch holes in the ozone layer because it punches holes in paper.
This may be the most ridiculous post I've seen to date on this site.
Why? There is about as much reason to worry that an insect midgut enterotoxin is going to poke holes in a bacterial cell wall as there is to worry that a hole punch is going to hurt the ozone layer. In otherwords...no reason.
Just because something punches a hole in one thing doesn't mean you can just transfer that concern to anything you don't want holes punched into. That was my point and I think it stands.
If you think that is silly then what is the specific mechanism by which BT is going to poke holes in the cell walls of commensal prokaryia or our own intestinal lining that has you concerned?
It's silly because comparing two living organisms consuming the same thing is a very far cry from trying to put ozone into a hole punch. It's not just comparing apples to oranges, it's comparing apples to a manual drill press.
If you want to compare living organisms consuming the same thing:
Garlic is toxic to cats
Theobromine (found in chocolate) is poisonous to dogs and cats
Avocados are toxic to some birds
Shall I go on?
Just because one thing is bad for a certain living thing does not mean it's bad for all living things.
There are more concrete concerns involving our food supply that are real things to worry about right now.
Go on as long as you like, but you might want to check your facts first.
Chocolate is not poisonous to dogs (not sure about cats). It's a common allergen for dogs. Many dogs can eat chocolate without any negative reactions.
And then if you could somehow relate your list to the threads topic that would also be cool.
Theobromine is not poisonous to dogs?
And you can't see the relation between BT killing specific insects but not our intestinal flora, and theobromine being toxic to some animals but not to humans?
I don't see the relation between your list and my comment about a silly post comparing 2 completely different things. I also don't see the relation to the OP (GMO being safe/unsafe).
Aaron_k123 said "There is about as much reason to worry that an insect midgut enterotoxin is going to poke holes in a bacterial cell wall as there is to worry that a hole punch is going to hurt the ozone layer. In otherwords...no reason."
You said: "It's silly because comparing two living organisms consuming the same thing is a very far cry from trying to put ozone into a hole punch. It's not just comparing apples to oranges, it's comparing apples to a manual drill press."
I gave examples of living organisms that will die if they eat foods that are harmless to humans, just like corn borers die if the eat BT which is harmless to our intestinal flora. (maybe I should have spelled out that I was comparing humans to birds, cats and dogs?)
You say this has no relationship to the OP/topic at hand. I don't see how it could be more relevant.1 -
Need2Exerc1se wrote: »suzyjane1972 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »Worrying that BT toxin is going to poke holes in our commensal prokaria or our own gut lining because it pokes holes in specific insects midguts is like worrying that a holepunch is going to punch holes in the ozone layer because it punches holes in paper.
This may be the most ridiculous post I've seen to date on this site.
Why? There is about as much reason to worry that an insect midgut enterotoxin is going to poke holes in a bacterial cell wall as there is to worry that a hole punch is going to hurt the ozone layer. In otherwords...no reason.
Just because something punches a hole in one thing doesn't mean you can just transfer that concern to anything you don't want holes punched into. That was my point and I think it stands.
If you think that is silly then what is the specific mechanism by which BT is going to poke holes in the cell walls of commensal prokaryia or our own intestinal lining that has you concerned?
It's silly because comparing two living organisms consuming the same thing is a very far cry from trying to put ozone into a hole punch. It's not just comparing apples to oranges, it's comparing apples to a manual drill press.
If you want to compare living organisms consuming the same thing:
Garlic is toxic to cats
Theobromine (found in chocolate) is poisonous to dogs and cats
Avocados are toxic to some birds
Shall I go on?
Just because one thing is bad for a certain living thing does not mean it's bad for all living things.
There are more concrete concerns involving our food supply that are real things to worry about right now.
Go on as long as you like, but you might want to check your facts first.
Chocolate is not poisonous to dogs (not sure about cats). It's a common allergen for dogs. Many dogs can eat chocolate without any negative reactions.
And then if you could somehow relate your list to the threads topic that would also be cool.
Sorry to burst your bubble but Chocolate is poisons to dogs. The theobromine is a toxin
Someone should tell that to all the dogs out there safely eating chocolate.
How do you how many dogs safely eat chocolate? Did you poll all the canines in your neighborhood? Between my family and close friends, 14 dog owners, none feed them chocolate.
Also, milk chocolate contains far less theobromine than bakers chocolate. So the all the numerous dogs you know safely consuming chocolate may be eating milk chocolate. It is also weight dependent.6 -
Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »Worrying that BT toxin is going to poke holes in our commensal prokaria or our own gut lining because it pokes holes in specific insects midguts is like worrying that a holepunch is going to punch holes in the ozone layer because it punches holes in paper.
This may be the most ridiculous post I've seen to date on this site.
Why? There is about as much reason to worry that an insect midgut enterotoxin is going to poke holes in a bacterial cell wall as there is to worry that a hole punch is going to hurt the ozone layer. In otherwords...no reason.
Just because something punches a hole in one thing doesn't mean you can just transfer that concern to anything you don't want holes punched into. That was my point and I think it stands.
If you think that is silly then what is the specific mechanism by which BT is going to poke holes in the cell walls of commensal prokaryia or our own intestinal lining that has you concerned?
It's silly because comparing two living organisms consuming the same thing is a very far cry from trying to put ozone into a hole punch. It's not just comparing apples to oranges, it's comparing apples to a manual drill press.
If you want to compare living organisms consuming the same thing:
Garlic is toxic to cats
Theobromine (found in chocolate) is poisonous to dogs and cats
Avocados are toxic to some birds
Shall I go on?
Just because one thing is bad for a certain living thing does not mean it's bad for all living things.
There are more concrete concerns involving our food supply that are real things to worry about right now.
Go on as long as you like, but you might want to check your facts first.
Chocolate is not poisonous to dogs (not sure about cats). It's a common allergen for dogs. Many dogs can eat chocolate without any negative reactions.
And then if you could somehow relate your list to the threads topic that would also be cool.
Theobromine is not poisonous to dogs?
And you can't see the relation between BT killing specific insects but not our intestinal flora, and theobromine being toxic to some animals but not to humans?
I don't see the relation between your list and my comment about a silly post comparing 2 completely different things. I also don't see the relation to the OP (GMO being safe/unsafe).
Aaron_k123 said "There is about as much reason to worry that an insect midgut enterotoxin is going to poke holes in a bacterial cell wall as there is to worry that a hole punch is going to hurt the ozone layer. In otherwords...no reason."
You said: "It's silly because comparing two living organisms consuming the same thing is a very far cry from trying to put ozone into a hole punch. It's not just comparing apples to oranges, it's comparing apples to a manual drill press."
I gave examples of living organisms that will die if they eat foods that are harmless to humans, just like corn borers die if the eat BT which is harmless to our intestinal flora. (maybe I should have spelled out that I was comparing humans to birds, cats and dogs?)
You say this has no relationship to the OP/topic at hand. I don't see how it could be more relevant.
I'd give up. It was such a simple point in the first place but need2exercise loves to go off on tangents, obfuscate and generally misconstrue arguments.1 -
Need2Exerc1se wrote: »suzyjane1972 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »Worrying that BT toxin is going to poke holes in our commensal prokaria or our own gut lining because it pokes holes in specific insects midguts is like worrying that a holepunch is going to punch holes in the ozone layer because it punches holes in paper.
This may be the most ridiculous post I've seen to date on this site.
Why? There is about as much reason to worry that an insect midgut enterotoxin is going to poke holes in a bacterial cell wall as there is to worry that a hole punch is going to hurt the ozone layer. In otherwords...no reason.
Just because something punches a hole in one thing doesn't mean you can just transfer that concern to anything you don't want holes punched into. That was my point and I think it stands.
If you think that is silly then what is the specific mechanism by which BT is going to poke holes in the cell walls of commensal prokaryia or our own intestinal lining that has you concerned?
It's silly because comparing two living organisms consuming the same thing is a very far cry from trying to put ozone into a hole punch. It's not just comparing apples to oranges, it's comparing apples to a manual drill press.
If you want to compare living organisms consuming the same thing:
Garlic is toxic to cats
Theobromine (found in chocolate) is poisonous to dogs and cats
Avocados are toxic to some birds
Shall I go on?
Just because one thing is bad for a certain living thing does not mean it's bad for all living things.
There are more concrete concerns involving our food supply that are real things to worry about right now.
Go on as long as you like, but you might want to check your facts first.
Chocolate is not poisonous to dogs (not sure about cats). It's a common allergen for dogs. Many dogs can eat chocolate without any negative reactions.
And then if you could somehow relate your list to the threads topic that would also be cool.
Sorry to burst your bubble but Chocolate is poisons to dogs. The theobromine is a toxin
Someone should tell that to all the dogs out there safely eating chocolate.
How do you how many dogs safely eat chocolate? Did you poll all the canines in your neighborhood? Between my family and close friends, 14 dog owners, none feed them chocolate.
Also, milk chocolate contains far less theobromine than bakers chocolate. So the all the numerous dogs you know safely consuming chocolate may be eating milk chocolate. It is also weight dependent.
Exactly! When I was a kid, our family dog got a hold of my chocolate Easter bunny and ate most of it. He was a 110lb Rottweiler and the bunny was cheap milk chocolate. He was fine. Had he been a 15 lb chihuahua eating a square of baker's chocolate? Yeah, that probably wouldn't have ended well. With any poison, the dose matters.
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@Need2Exerc1se are you concerned about wearing clothes made with BT cotton? Because the likelihood of harm is about the same2
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paulgads82 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »Worrying that BT toxin is going to poke holes in our commensal prokaria or our own gut lining because it pokes holes in specific insects midguts is like worrying that a holepunch is going to punch holes in the ozone layer because it punches holes in paper.
This may be the most ridiculous post I've seen to date on this site.
Why? There is about as much reason to worry that an insect midgut enterotoxin is going to poke holes in a bacterial cell wall as there is to worry that a hole punch is going to hurt the ozone layer. In otherwords...no reason.
Just because something punches a hole in one thing doesn't mean you can just transfer that concern to anything you don't want holes punched into. That was my point and I think it stands.
If you think that is silly then what is the specific mechanism by which BT is going to poke holes in the cell walls of commensal prokaryia or our own intestinal lining that has you concerned?
It's silly because comparing two living organisms consuming the same thing is a very far cry from trying to put ozone into a hole punch. It's not just comparing apples to oranges, it's comparing apples to a manual drill press.
If you want to compare living organisms consuming the same thing:
Garlic is toxic to cats
Theobromine (found in chocolate) is poisonous to dogs and cats
Avocados are toxic to some birds
Shall I go on?
Just because one thing is bad for a certain living thing does not mean it's bad for all living things.
There are more concrete concerns involving our food supply that are real things to worry about right now.
Go on as long as you like, but you might want to check your facts first.
Chocolate is not poisonous to dogs (not sure about cats). It's a common allergen for dogs. Many dogs can eat chocolate without any negative reactions.
And then if you could somehow relate your list to the threads topic that would also be cool.
Theobromine is not poisonous to dogs?
And you can't see the relation between BT killing specific insects but not our intestinal flora, and theobromine being toxic to some animals but not to humans?
I don't see the relation between your list and my comment about a silly post comparing 2 completely different things. I also don't see the relation to the OP (GMO being safe/unsafe).
Aaron_k123 said "There is about as much reason to worry that an insect midgut enterotoxin is going to poke holes in a bacterial cell wall as there is to worry that a hole punch is going to hurt the ozone layer. In otherwords...no reason."
You said: "It's silly because comparing two living organisms consuming the same thing is a very far cry from trying to put ozone into a hole punch. It's not just comparing apples to oranges, it's comparing apples to a manual drill press."
I gave examples of living organisms that will die if they eat foods that are harmless to humans, just like corn borers die if the eat BT which is harmless to our intestinal flora. (maybe I should have spelled out that I was comparing humans to birds, cats and dogs?)
You say this has no relationship to the OP/topic at hand. I don't see how it could be more relevant.
I'd give up. It was such a simple point in the first place but need2exercise loves to go off on tangents, obfuscate and generally misconstrue arguments.
I'm glad you said the point was simple! I had to explain myself because I worried I hadn't made myself clear.
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Need2Exerc1se wrote: »suzyjane1972 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »Worrying that BT toxin is going to poke holes in our commensal prokaria or our own gut lining because it pokes holes in specific insects midguts is like worrying that a holepunch is going to punch holes in the ozone layer because it punches holes in paper.
This may be the most ridiculous post I've seen to date on this site.
Why? There is about as much reason to worry that an insect midgut enterotoxin is going to poke holes in a bacterial cell wall as there is to worry that a hole punch is going to hurt the ozone layer. In otherwords...no reason.
Just because something punches a hole in one thing doesn't mean you can just transfer that concern to anything you don't want holes punched into. That was my point and I think it stands.
If you think that is silly then what is the specific mechanism by which BT is going to poke holes in the cell walls of commensal prokaryia or our own intestinal lining that has you concerned?
It's silly because comparing two living organisms consuming the same thing is a very far cry from trying to put ozone into a hole punch. It's not just comparing apples to oranges, it's comparing apples to a manual drill press.
If you want to compare living organisms consuming the same thing:
Garlic is toxic to cats
Theobromine (found in chocolate) is poisonous to dogs and cats
Avocados are toxic to some birds
Shall I go on?
Just because one thing is bad for a certain living thing does not mean it's bad for all living things.
There are more concrete concerns involving our food supply that are real things to worry about right now.
Go on as long as you like, but you might want to check your facts first.
Chocolate is not poisonous to dogs (not sure about cats). It's a common allergen for dogs. Many dogs can eat chocolate without any negative reactions.
And then if you could somehow relate your list to the threads topic that would also be cool.
Sorry to burst your bubble but Chocolate is poisons to dogs. The theobromine is a toxin
Someone should tell that to all the dogs out there safely eating chocolate.
No, they are eating relatively low dosage for their side.
Milk chocolate contains less theobromine. Larger dogs would have to eat a very large amount of milk chocolate to reach toxic levels. But it is still toxic to them.
Dark chocolate and bakers chocolate is more of a concern.
The size of the dog matters as well.
Just because a large dog can eat a piece of milk chocolate without immediate negative effects does not make chocolate safe for dogs.6 -
tlflag1620 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »suzyjane1972 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »Worrying that BT toxin is going to poke holes in our commensal prokaria or our own gut lining because it pokes holes in specific insects midguts is like worrying that a holepunch is going to punch holes in the ozone layer because it punches holes in paper.
This may be the most ridiculous post I've seen to date on this site.
Why? There is about as much reason to worry that an insect midgut enterotoxin is going to poke holes in a bacterial cell wall as there is to worry that a hole punch is going to hurt the ozone layer. In otherwords...no reason.
Just because something punches a hole in one thing doesn't mean you can just transfer that concern to anything you don't want holes punched into. That was my point and I think it stands.
If you think that is silly then what is the specific mechanism by which BT is going to poke holes in the cell walls of commensal prokaryia or our own intestinal lining that has you concerned?
It's silly because comparing two living organisms consuming the same thing is a very far cry from trying to put ozone into a hole punch. It's not just comparing apples to oranges, it's comparing apples to a manual drill press.
If you want to compare living organisms consuming the same thing:
Garlic is toxic to cats
Theobromine (found in chocolate) is poisonous to dogs and cats
Avocados are toxic to some birds
Shall I go on?
Just because one thing is bad for a certain living thing does not mean it's bad for all living things.
There are more concrete concerns involving our food supply that are real things to worry about right now.
Go on as long as you like, but you might want to check your facts first.
Chocolate is not poisonous to dogs (not sure about cats). It's a common allergen for dogs. Many dogs can eat chocolate without any negative reactions.
And then if you could somehow relate your list to the threads topic that would also be cool.
Sorry to burst your bubble but Chocolate is poisons to dogs. The theobromine is a toxin
Someone should tell that to all the dogs out there safely eating chocolate.
How do you how many dogs safely eat chocolate? Did you poll all the canines in your neighborhood? Between my family and close friends, 14 dog owners, none feed them chocolate.
Also, milk chocolate contains far less theobromine than bakers chocolate. So the all the numerous dogs you know safely consuming chocolate may be eating milk chocolate. It is also weight dependent.
Exactly! When I was a kid, our family dog got a hold of my chocolate Easter bunny and ate most of it. He was a 110lb Rottweiler and the bunny was cheap milk chocolate. He was fine. Had he been a 15 lb chihuahua eating a square of baker's chocolate? Yeah, that probably wouldn't have ended well. With any poison, the dose matters.
Just highlights the poor quality of common chocolate candy.
When I was a kid, my friend's teacup poodle (~5 lb dog) loved chocolate and would steal Hershey's kisses when she could. Never got more than one or two at a time, so she was fine.
One winter, she got into a 5 lb Crunch bar that had been wrapped and not-too-intelligently put under the Christmas tree. Ate more than half of it. Her family rushed the dog to the vet. She was fine, not even a hint of illness. Vet figured she was saved by the extremely low quality of chocolate*, the rice crispies slowing the absorbtion, and possibly from building some tolerance from her chocolate stealing habits.
* I mean, really? The dog didn't so much as skip a beat after eating that much chocolate. For shame, Nestle.1 -
FunkyTobias wrote: »@Need2Exerc1se are you concerned about wearing clothes made with BT cotton? Because the likelihood of harm is about the same
I don't wear clothes.
Just kidding. I usually do. No, I'm not concerned about it. I already said BT is not a concern for me.0 -
Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »Worrying that BT toxin is going to poke holes in our commensal prokaria or our own gut lining because it pokes holes in specific insects midguts is like worrying that a holepunch is going to punch holes in the ozone layer because it punches holes in paper.
This may be the most ridiculous post I've seen to date on this site.
Why? There is about as much reason to worry that an insect midgut enterotoxin is going to poke holes in a bacterial cell wall as there is to worry that a hole punch is going to hurt the ozone layer. In otherwords...no reason.
Just because something punches a hole in one thing doesn't mean you can just transfer that concern to anything you don't want holes punched into. That was my point and I think it stands.
If you think that is silly then what is the specific mechanism by which BT is going to poke holes in the cell walls of commensal prokaryia or our own intestinal lining that has you concerned?
It's silly because comparing two living organisms consuming the same thing is a very far cry from trying to put ozone into a hole punch. It's not just comparing apples to oranges, it's comparing apples to a manual drill press.
If you want to compare living organisms consuming the same thing:
Garlic is toxic to cats
Theobromine (found in chocolate) is poisonous to dogs and cats
Avocados are toxic to some birds
Shall I go on?
Just because one thing is bad for a certain living thing does not mean it's bad for all living things.
There are more concrete concerns involving our food supply that are real things to worry about right now.
Go on as long as you like, but you might want to check your facts first.
Chocolate is not poisonous to dogs (not sure about cats). It's a common allergen for dogs. Many dogs can eat chocolate without any negative reactions.
And then if you could somehow relate your list to the threads topic that would also be cool.
Theobromine is not poisonous to dogs?
And you can't see the relation between BT killing specific insects but not our intestinal flora, and theobromine being toxic to some animals but not to humans?
I don't see the relation between your list and my comment about a silly post comparing 2 completely different things. I also don't see the relation to the OP (GMO being safe/unsafe).
Aaron_k123 said "There is about as much reason to worry that an insect midgut enterotoxin is going to poke holes in a bacterial cell wall as there is to worry that a hole punch is going to hurt the ozone layer. In otherwords...no reason."
You said: "It's silly because comparing two living organisms consuming the same thing is a very far cry from trying to put ozone into a hole punch. It's not just comparing apples to oranges, it's comparing apples to a manual drill press."
I gave examples of living organisms that will die if they eat foods that are harmless to humans, just like corn borers die if the eat BT which is harmless to our intestinal flora. (maybe I should have spelled out that I was comparing humans to birds, cats and dogs?)
You say this has no relationship to the OP/topic at hand. I don't see how it could be more relevant.
Because my post was about the ridiculousness of the example given.0 -
Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »Worrying that BT toxin is going to poke holes in our commensal prokaria or our own gut lining because it pokes holes in specific insects midguts is like worrying that a holepunch is going to punch holes in the ozone layer because it punches holes in paper.
This may be the most ridiculous post I've seen to date on this site.
Why? There is about as much reason to worry that an insect midgut enterotoxin is going to poke holes in a bacterial cell wall as there is to worry that a hole punch is going to hurt the ozone layer. In otherwords...no reason.
Just because something punches a hole in one thing doesn't mean you can just transfer that concern to anything you don't want holes punched into. That was my point and I think it stands.
If you think that is silly then what is the specific mechanism by which BT is going to poke holes in the cell walls of commensal prokaryia or our own intestinal lining that has you concerned?
It's silly because comparing two living organisms consuming the same thing is a very far cry from trying to put ozone into a hole punch. It's not just comparing apples to oranges, it's comparing apples to a manual drill press.
But comparing the eukaryotic cell envelope in an insects midgut to a prokaryotic cell wall in our gut is not just an apples/oranges comparison...they are vastly different.
Might I suggest that why one sounds silly to you while the other sounds plausible is simply that you are very familiar with the operation and possible usages of a hole punch while you are not as familiar with enterotoxins and bacterial cell walls and peptidoglycan. It is equally silly. Neither are at all reasonable concerns.
Even if somehow Cry/Crt could get through the lipopolysacchride capsule layer, even if it could get through the outer membrane, even if it could get through the peptidoglycan even if it could bind to a phospholipid integral membrane protein that is not an insect midgut cadherin and therefore it does not recognize how in the world would it proceed to form a pore the size of which would fit a bacteria within the membrane of a bacteria? That is physically impossible.
It makes as much sense as trying to punch a hole in the ozone with a hole punch and if you don't see that my assumption is you don't know all that much about microbial cell walls or enterotoxins.7 -
Need2Exerc1se wrote: »FunkyTobias wrote: »@Need2Exerc1se are you concerned about wearing clothes made with BT cotton? Because the likelihood of harm is about the same
I don't wear clothes.
Just kidding. I usually do. No, I'm not concerned about it. I already said BT is not a concern for me.
Still confused. Back on page 9, you specifically replied to the conversation about BT GMOs saying they were scary for you. Now you're saying you're not concerned. Which is it?5 -
mskessler89 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »FunkyTobias wrote: »@Need2Exerc1se are you concerned about wearing clothes made with BT cotton? Because the likelihood of harm is about the same
I don't wear clothes.
Just kidding. I usually do. No, I'm not concerned about it. I already said BT is not a concern for me.
Still confused. Back on page 9, you specifically replied to the conversation about BT GMOs saying they were scary for you. Now you're saying you're not concerned. Which is it?
I know the answer. pick me pick me4 -
People bury a ridicuolus statements in terminology and jargon that most don't understand so that it sounds like a plausible concern.
Concern that the BT enterotoxin is going to disrupt the plasma membrane of a prokaryote is a ridiculous notion. The reason that fact is obfuscated is simply because most people don't know anything about microbiology or enterotoxins so they don't recognize the inherient physical impossibility of that claim.
There is zero, none, no reason at all to be concerned about that happening and I stand by my analogy that for the exact same reason there is no reason to be concerned that hole punches might affect the ozone layer.
The "concern" is based solely on the idea that these things punch holes in other things without taking into consideration at all how they actually function.
So I will repeat my analogy again for emphasis. The idea that the BT enterotoxin would "punch a hole" in a prokaryotic cell membrane makes as much sense as the idea that a hole punch could "punch a hole" in the ozone layer. It is taking the idea that they "punch holes" and just applying that to things they clearly cannot punch holes in and then acting like that is somehow a valid concern.
It is not a valid concern.4 -
mskessler89 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »FunkyTobias wrote: »@Need2Exerc1se are you concerned about wearing clothes made with BT cotton? Because the likelihood of harm is about the same
I don't wear clothes.
Just kidding. I usually do. No, I'm not concerned about it. I already said BT is not a concern for me.
Still confused. Back on page 9, you specifically replied to the conversation about BT GMOs saying they were scary for you. Now you're saying you're not concerned. Which is it?
I had to go back and read page 9. My post was about plants genetically engineered to produce any type of pesticide, not BT specifically. I can understand the confusion, though a few posts later I did say that I wasn't concerned about BT.1 -
Aaron_K123 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »Worrying that BT toxin is going to poke holes in our commensal prokaria or our own gut lining because it pokes holes in specific insects midguts is like worrying that a holepunch is going to punch holes in the ozone layer because it punches holes in paper.
This may be the most ridiculous post I've seen to date on this site.
Why? There is about as much reason to worry that an insect midgut enterotoxin is going to poke holes in a bacterial cell wall as there is to worry that a hole punch is going to hurt the ozone layer. In otherwords...no reason.
Just because something punches a hole in one thing doesn't mean you can just transfer that concern to anything you don't want holes punched into. That was my point and I think it stands.
If you think that is silly then what is the specific mechanism by which BT is going to poke holes in the cell walls of commensal prokaryia or our own intestinal lining that has you concerned?
It's silly because comparing two living organisms consuming the same thing is a very far cry from trying to put ozone into a hole punch. It's not just comparing apples to oranges, it's comparing apples to a manual drill press.
But comparing the eukaryotic cell envelope in an insects midgut to a prokaryotic cell wall in our gut is not just an apples/oranges comparison...they are vastly different.
Might I suggest that why one sounds silly to you while the other sounds plausible is simply that you are very familiar with the operation and possible usages of a hole punch while you are not as familiar with enterotoxins and bacterial cell walls and peptidoglycan. It is equally silly. Neither are at all reasonable concerns.
Even if somehow Cry/Crt could get through the lipopolysacchride capsule layer, even if it could get through the outer membrane, even if it could get through the peptidoglycan even if it could bind to a phospholipid integral membrane protein that is not an insect midgut cadherin and therefore it does not recognize how in the world would it proceed to form a pore the size of which would fit a bacteria within the membrane of a bacteria? That is physically impossible.
It makes as much sense as trying to punch a hole in the ozone with a hole punch and if you don't see that my assumption is you don't know all that much about microbial cell walls or enterotoxins.
Not sure if you really don't get my point or you are purposely avoiding it, either way I don't think repeating myself will help you.2
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