Herbalife
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Replies
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Liver damage
4 cases in 2004
https://www.weizmann.ac.il/immunology/elinav/sites/immunology.elinav/files/2007_elinav_j_hep.pdf
This article was a reference in the second article, and these four cases were included in the count for the second article, so not an additional 4 instances. I believe the author of the second article did a good job pointing out the problems with the research conducted in this study.1 -
Meh. Lower costing, better quality protein powders and vitamins out there really. And with the added advantage that you don't have to deal with an annoying marketing rep. pestering you to buy more stuff...3
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Not that I support herbalife,but the notion that 3 anomalies qualifies as causation is a bit disturbing; especially considering the links between herbalife and liver issues happened in 2010. A time period in which a ton of protein shakes were linked to high levels of heavy metals. And this doesn't even take into consideration how often the formula has been changed (this goes for all protein shakes).
Do I think it's worth the money.. no, but I feel the same way about all MLM and over priced protein shakes. Are they quality.. I can't say because I haven't seen any independent research.
But if it's a product that helps people get on track and get fit, and they don't mind spending the money, then it's fine.Not that I support herbalife,but the notion that 3 anomalies qualifies as causation is a bit disturbing; especially considering the links between herbalife and liver issues happened in 2010. A time period in which a ton of protein shakes were linked to high levels of heavy metals. And this doesn't even take into consideration how often the formula has been changed (this goes for all protein shakes).
Do I think it's worth the money.. no, but I feel the same way about all MLM and over priced protein shakes. Are they quality.. I can't say because I haven't seen any independent research.
But if it's a product that helps people get on track and get fit, and they don't mind spending the money, then it's fine.
I was thinking the same thing, I haven't seen any evidence other than that one study of 3 people (and I think only 2 of them had used Herbalife products) of liver issues being linked to Herbalife. Still not my thing, but if it helps them and they want to spend the money, that's their business.
But, by the same token......
The OP did ask for opinions in a public forum.
In reality, how often do products such as this help people to create sustainable habits that help them manage their weight on a long term basis?
Probably the same success rate as all other programs, which includes calorie counting, carb counting, etc...
I doubt that, especially after knowing a lot of people who successfully lose weight eating real food and keeping it off. There are countless stories of the same type here and at other message boards of people eating real food and successfully managing their weight.
Let's face it herbalife is a quick fix for the majority of people who use it.
So you can still drink a protein shake and then eat real food throughout the day. That is what my wife does. She can't and doesn't eat breakfast. She needs to be awake for a few hours before even considering food. So she drinks a protein shake a few hours after my son wakes up and then a light lunch. Many of these plans, are only replacing one meal with a meal replace or replace a snack.
Also, the success forums at places like teambeachbody and other sites are equally large as the people here. In fact, used to be on the BB website and saw new ones everyday. And while I never did the supplements and I did the workouts and glad I did. The reason you don't see much success over here about these programs is because when they post, they get a lot of opinions on their approach.0 -
So glad I joined this site when a majority of common sense members posted a lot on the boards. Right away I learned that there were no short cuts, shakes, pills, or special diets needed to be successful. I will be forever grateful to you folks ( if you still lurk and read).
11 -
diannethegeek wrote: »Never in a million years did I think I would see MFP change its stance on MLM products.
Right? Not that I'd ever want to read intention into a post or anything, but MFP had traditionally been very anti MLM and is weird to see 2 people who represent MFP on the forums in here defending the product. You gotta wonder how that looks to someone doing a Google search and finding this thread. Whether or not your intend to be the voice of MFP, you objectively represent them by being in a position of authority on their forums.7 -
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Alatariel75 wrote: »diannethegeek wrote: »Never in a million years did I think I would see MFP change its stance on MLM products.
Right? Not that I'd ever want to read intention into a post or anything, but MFP had traditionally been very anti MLM and is weird to see 2 people who represent MFP on the forums in here defending the product. You gotta wonder how that looks to someone doing a Google search and finding this thread. Whether or not your intend to be the voice of MFP, you objectively represent them by being in a position of authority on their forums.
How is pointing out that people are making false claims about a product being linked to liver damage defending the product? I was under the impression that users in this community wanted to debunk false information, and in this case, the claims that people are making are not supported by the science they themselves are presenting.
Both @psulemon and I have said that we don't use the products and do not intend to do so, but we also make it clear that that decision is based on our own personal preferences. Neither of us have taken any issue with any posts in this topic where people have expressed a personal preference not to use the products, we have specifically challenged the claims about liver damage.
I would hope that anyone doing a Google search would appreciate 2 people who "represent MFP," even though we actually do not, making an effort to discuss the topic objectively and not to support the spread of misinformation based on personal opinions about the topic.1 -
Alatariel75 wrote: »diannethegeek wrote: »Never in a million years did I think I would see MFP change its stance on MLM products.
Right? Not that I'd ever want to read intention into a post or anything, but MFP had traditionally been very anti MLM and is weird to see 2 people who represent MFP on the forums in here defending the product. You gotta wonder how that looks to someone doing a Google search and finding this thread. Whether or not your intend to be the voice of MFP, you objectively represent them by being in a position of authority on their forums.
How is pointing out that people are making false claims about a product being linked to liver damage defending the product? I was under the impression that users in this community wanted to debunk false information, and in this case, the claims that people are making are not supported by the science they themselves are presenting.
Both @psulemon and I have said that we don't use the products and do not intend to do so, but we also make it clear that that decision is based on our own personal preferences. Neither of us have taken any issue with any posts in this topic where people have expressed a personal preference not to use the products, we have specifically challenged the claims about liver damage.
I would hope that anyone doing a Google search would appreciate 2 people who "represent MFP," even though we actually do not, making an effort to discuss the topic objectively and not to support the spread of misinformation based on personal opinions about the topic.
You win. Not sure why your going on. No one is arguing with you anymore.-1 -
Liver damage
2010
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3004035/
Abstract
We report three cases of patients with acute liver injury induced by weight-loss herbal supplements. One patient took Hydroxycut while the other two took Herbalife supplements. Liver biopsies for all patients demonstrated findings consistent with drug-induced acute liver injury. To our knowledge, we are the first institute to report acute liver injury from both of these two types of weight-loss herbal supplements together as a case series. The series emphasizes the importance of taking a cautious approach when consuming herbal supplements for the purpose of weight loss.
2007
http://www.journal-of-hepatology.eu/article/S0168-8278(07)00406-0/abstract
Among the 22 cases of liver damage following Herbalife® intake analyzed in the two reports, two patients developed fulminant hepatic failure requiring super urgent liver transplantation which saved one patient’s life while the second died due to postoperative complications. Causality between the intake of Herbalife® products and the evolution of liver injury was carefully assessed by internationally accepted causality scores [13,14]. In five patients, causality was labelled “certain” by a positive re-challenge reaction and “probable” in additional 13 patients. Other potential causes were ruled out in all patients
4 cases in 2004
https://www.weizmann.ac.il/immunology/elinav/sites/immunology.elinav/files/2007_elinav_j_hep.pdf
Here's some more studies for you, if you have an interest. Some of these may be repeats. And other manufacturer's products are also implicated, but it looks like you found that out already.
"Acute liver injury induced by weight-loss herbal supplements"
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3004035/
"Severe hepatotoxicity following ingestion of Herbalife nutritional supplements contaminated with Bacillus subtilis"
http://www.ifik.unibe.ch/unibe/medizin/ifik/content/e7961/e8166/e8582/e8618/bacillus_subt_herbalife_ger.pdf
"Prolonged intrahepatic cholestasis and renal failure secondary to anabolic androgenic steroid-enriched dietary supplements"
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19238093
"Hepatotoxicity associated with the use of Herbalife"
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20197595
"Herbal does not mean innocuous: ten cases of severe hepatotoxicity associated with dietary supplements from Herbalife products"
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17692989
"Association between consumption of Herbalife nutritional supplements and acute hepatotoxicity"
http://wws.weizmann.ac.il/immunology/elinav/sites/immunology.elinav/files/2007_elinav_j_hep.pdf
See also, http://www.mlmwatch.org/04C/Herbalife/herbalife00.html
Happy reading
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Alatariel75 wrote: »diannethegeek wrote: »Never in a million years did I think I would see MFP change its stance on MLM products.
Right? Not that I'd ever want to read intention into a post or anything, but MFP had traditionally been very anti MLM and is weird to see 2 people who represent MFP on the forums in here defending the product. You gotta wonder how that looks to someone doing a Google search and finding this thread. Whether or not your intend to be the voice of MFP, you objectively represent them by being in a position of authority on their forums.
100% this. Glad someone said it. I've been trying to think of an eloquent way to say it.4 -
Alluminati wrote: »Alatariel75 wrote: »diannethegeek wrote: »Never in a million years did I think I would see MFP change its stance on MLM products.
Right? Not that I'd ever want to read intention into a post or anything, but MFP had traditionally been very anti MLM and is weird to see 2 people who represent MFP on the forums in here defending the product. You gotta wonder how that looks to someone doing a Google search and finding this thread. Whether or not your intend to be the voice of MFP, you objectively represent them by being in a position of authority on their forums.
How is pointing out that people are making false claims about a product being linked to liver damage defending the product? I was under the impression that users in this community wanted to debunk false information, and in this case, the claims that people are making are not supported by the science they themselves are presenting.
Both @psulemon and I have said that we don't use the products and do not intend to do so, but we also make it clear that that decision is based on our own personal preferences. Neither of us have taken any issue with any posts in this topic where people have expressed a personal preference not to use the products, we have specifically challenged the claims about liver damage.
I would hope that anyone doing a Google search would appreciate 2 people who "represent MFP," even though we actually do not, making an effort to discuss the topic objectively and not to support the spread of misinformation based on personal opinions about the topic.
You win. Not sure why your going on. No one is arguing with you anymore.
Public message board. People are allowed to post their viewpoints, and I'm allowed to respond. You always have the option to skip over my posts or leave the topic if you don't want to read what I have to say.4 -
Alluminati wrote: »Alatariel75 wrote: »diannethegeek wrote: »Never in a million years did I think I would see MFP change its stance on MLM products.
Right? Not that I'd ever want to read intention into a post or anything, but MFP had traditionally been very anti MLM and is weird to see 2 people who represent MFP on the forums in here defending the product. You gotta wonder how that looks to someone doing a Google search and finding this thread. Whether or not your intend to be the voice of MFP, you objectively represent them by being in a position of authority on their forums.
How is pointing out that people are making false claims about a product being linked to liver damage defending the product? I was under the impression that users in this community wanted to debunk false information, and in this case, the claims that people are making are not supported by the science they themselves are presenting.
Both @psulemon and I have said that we don't use the products and do not intend to do so, but we also make it clear that that decision is based on our own personal preferences. Neither of us have taken any issue with any posts in this topic where people have expressed a personal preference not to use the products, we have specifically challenged the claims about liver damage.
I would hope that anyone doing a Google search would appreciate 2 people who "represent MFP," even though we actually do not, making an effort to discuss the topic objectively and not to support the spread of misinformation based on personal opinions about the topic.
You win. Not sure why your going on. No one is arguing with you anymore.
Public message board. People are allowed to post their viewpoints, and I'm allowed to respond. You always have the option to skip over my posts or leave the topic if you don't want to read what I have to say.
Nope, I'll stay. I'm asking because no one is debating you anymore. You win. How does it feel to win?0 -
Alluminati wrote: »Alatariel75 wrote: »diannethegeek wrote: »Never in a million years did I think I would see MFP change its stance on MLM products.
Right? Not that I'd ever want to read intention into a post or anything, but MFP had traditionally been very anti MLM and is weird to see 2 people who represent MFP on the forums in here defending the product. You gotta wonder how that looks to someone doing a Google search and finding this thread. Whether or not your intend to be the voice of MFP, you objectively represent them by being in a position of authority on their forums.
How is pointing out that people are making false claims about a product being linked to liver damage defending the product? I was under the impression that users in this community wanted to debunk false information, and in this case, the claims that people are making are not supported by the science they themselves are presenting.
Both @psulemon and I have said that we don't use the products and do not intend to do so, but we also make it clear that that decision is based on our own personal preferences. Neither of us have taken any issue with any posts in this topic where people have expressed a personal preference not to use the products, we have specifically challenged the claims about liver damage.
I would hope that anyone doing a Google search would appreciate 2 people who "represent MFP," even though we actually do not, making an effort to discuss the topic objectively and not to support the spread of misinformation based on personal opinions about the topic.
You win. Not sure why your going on. No one is arguing with you anymore.
Public message board. People are allowed to post their viewpoints, and I'm allowed to respond. You always have the option to skip over my posts or leave the topic if you don't want to read what I have to say.
Also, the fact is, i support science. There is not adequate evidence to suggest that a protein shake, mlm or muscle milk, is going to cause liver damaged. Even more of a fact, if these extremely rare cases where used in any other thread to support an a lifestyle that one did not follow, the same scrutiny would be applied as @kgeyser and i are making. All i am doing to applying consistency and not allowing personal bias to cloud my judgment. Me countering poor assessments, based self recall, and are isolated to one part of the world, in a time where quality control wasnt great shouldn't be reason to believe i support any mlm. I dont and wont support mlm. I support science if available.
And again, i dont represent MFP. I dont get paid. I dont get free UA, and this is all free dedication.3 -
Not that I support herbalife,but the notion that 3 anomalies qualifies as causation is a bit disturbing; especially considering the links between herbalife and liver issues happened in 2010. A time period in which a ton of protein shakes were linked to high levels of heavy metals. And this doesn't even take into consideration how often the formula has been changed (this goes for all protein shakes).
Do I think it's worth the money.. no, but I feel the same way about all MLM and over priced protein shakes. Are they quality.. I can't say because I haven't seen any independent research.
But if it's a product that helps people get on track and get fit, and they don't mind spending the money, then it's fine.Not that I support herbalife,but the notion that 3 anomalies qualifies as causation is a bit disturbing; especially considering the links between herbalife and liver issues happened in 2010. A time period in which a ton of protein shakes were linked to high levels of heavy metals. And this doesn't even take into consideration how often the formula has been changed (this goes for all protein shakes).
Do I think it's worth the money.. no, but I feel the same way about all MLM and over priced protein shakes. Are they quality.. I can't say because I haven't seen any independent research.
But if it's a product that helps people get on track and get fit, and they don't mind spending the money, then it's fine.
I was thinking the same thing, I haven't seen any evidence other than that one study of 3 people (and I think only 2 of them had used Herbalife products) of liver issues being linked to Herbalife. Still not my thing, but if it helps them and they want to spend the money, that's their business.
But, by the same token......
The OP did ask for opinions in a public forum.
In reality, how often do products such as this help people to create sustainable habits that help them manage their weight on a long term basis?
Probably the same success rate as all other programs, which includes calorie counting, carb counting, etc...
I doubt that, especially after knowing a lot of people who successfully lose weight eating real food and keeping it off. There are countless stories of the same type here and at other message boards of people eating real food and successfully managing their weight.
Let's face it herbalife is a quick fix for the majority of people who use it.
So you can still drink a protein shake and then eat real food throughout the day. That is what my wife does. She can't and doesn't eat breakfast. She needs to be awake for a few hours before even considering food. So she drinks a protein shake a few hours after my son wakes up and then a light lunch. Many of these plans, are only replacing one meal with a meal replace or replace a snack.
Also, the success forums at places like teambeachbody and other sites are equally large as the people here. In fact, used to be on the BB website and saw new ones everyday. And while I never did the supplements and I did the workouts and glad I did. The reason you don't see much success over here about these programs is because when they post, they get a lot of opinions on their approach.
Lemon, I am not sure we are talking about the same thing.
You're saying your wife has protein shakes because she can't stomach food until a certain hour. Some people can't stomach solid food for awhile after waking but will have coffee, or a shake.
However, from seeing enough postings of people here where people ask about herbalife, detox teas, and other supplements, it's a sure bet that they believe those products might help them lose weight.
Yes, it you stay in a calorie deficit while drinking Herbalife, you will lose weight.
No, will not lose weight while drinking Herbalife if you do not stay in a deficit.
Herbalife is a scam and will not work unless you eat at a calorie deficit.
1 -
Alluminati wrote: »Alatariel75 wrote: »diannethegeek wrote: »Never in a million years did I think I would see MFP change its stance on MLM products.
Right? Not that I'd ever want to read intention into a post or anything, but MFP had traditionally been very anti MLM and is weird to see 2 people who represent MFP on the forums in here defending the product. You gotta wonder how that looks to someone doing a Google search and finding this thread. Whether or not your intend to be the voice of MFP, you objectively represent them by being in a position of authority on their forums.
How is pointing out that people are making false claims about a product being linked to liver damage defending the product? I was under the impression that users in this community wanted to debunk false information, and in this case, the claims that people are making are not supported by the science they themselves are presenting.
Both @psulemon and I have said that we don't use the products and do not intend to do so, but we also make it clear that that decision is based on our own personal preferences. Neither of us have taken any issue with any posts in this topic where people have expressed a personal preference not to use the products, we have specifically challenged the claims about liver damage.
I would hope that anyone doing a Google search would appreciate 2 people who "represent MFP," even though we actually do not, making an effort to discuss the topic objectively and not to support the spread of misinformation based on personal opinions about the topic.
You win. Not sure why your going on. No one is arguing with you anymore.
Public message board. People are allowed to post their viewpoints, and I'm allowed to respond. You always have the option to skip over my posts or leave the topic if you don't want to read what I have to say.
Also, the fact is, i support science. There is not adequate evidence to suggest that a protein shake, mlm or muscle milk, is going to cause liver damaged. Even more of a fact, if these extremely rare cases where used in any other thread to support an a lifestyle that one did not follow, the same scrutiny would be applied as @kgeyser and i are making. All i am doing to applying consistency and not allowing personal bias to cloud my judgment. Me countering poor assessments, based self recall, and are isolated to one part of the world, in a time where quality control wasnt great shouldn't be reason to believe i support any mlm. I dont and wont support mlm. I support science if available.
And again, i dont represent MFP. I dont get paid. I dont get free UA, and this is all free dedication.
That's great. Is that why you are always in the protein shake threads "applying consistency" with this much fervor? Oh...wait. sorry, I may be mis-remembering. My bad. Carry on with the science, ole chap. You're doing great!0 -
Alluminati wrote: »Alluminati wrote: »Alatariel75 wrote: »diannethegeek wrote: »Never in a million years did I think I would see MFP change its stance on MLM products.
Right? Not that I'd ever want to read intention into a post or anything, but MFP had traditionally been very anti MLM and is weird to see 2 people who represent MFP on the forums in here defending the product. You gotta wonder how that looks to someone doing a Google search and finding this thread. Whether or not your intend to be the voice of MFP, you objectively represent them by being in a position of authority on their forums.
How is pointing out that people are making false claims about a product being linked to liver damage defending the product? I was under the impression that users in this community wanted to debunk false information, and in this case, the claims that people are making are not supported by the science they themselves are presenting.
Both @psulemon and I have said that we don't use the products and do not intend to do so, but we also make it clear that that decision is based on our own personal preferences. Neither of us have taken any issue with any posts in this topic where people have expressed a personal preference not to use the products, we have specifically challenged the claims about liver damage.
I would hope that anyone doing a Google search would appreciate 2 people who "represent MFP," even though we actually do not, making an effort to discuss the topic objectively and not to support the spread of misinformation based on personal opinions about the topic.
You win. Not sure why your going on. No one is arguing with you anymore.
Public message board. People are allowed to post their viewpoints, and I'm allowed to respond. You always have the option to skip over my posts or leave the topic if you don't want to read what I have to say.
Nope, I'll stay. I'm asking because no one is debating you anymore. You win. How does it feel to win?
What's there to even win? We merely addressing the study and article presented. Instead of people wanting to discuss that, it seems they would rather discuss the people arguing the science.
Ultimately, people should try and make informed decisions based on evidence. When evidences isnt available, it should be based on judgment. Again, i would rather have a protein shake that whey based but even then i would rather eat my protein. I actually only use powders for cooking; like protein pancakes or some quest deserts.1 -
Not that I support herbalife,but the notion that 3 anomalies qualifies as causation is a bit disturbing; especially considering the links between herbalife and liver issues happened in 2010. A time period in which a ton of protein shakes were linked to high levels of heavy metals. And this doesn't even take into consideration how often the formula has been changed (this goes for all protein shakes).
Do I think it's worth the money.. no, but I feel the same way about all MLM and over priced protein shakes. Are they quality.. I can't say because I haven't seen any independent research.
But if it's a product that helps people get on track and get fit, and they don't mind spending the money, then it's fine.Not that I support herbalife,but the notion that 3 anomalies qualifies as causation is a bit disturbing; especially considering the links between herbalife and liver issues happened in 2010. A time period in which a ton of protein shakes were linked to high levels of heavy metals. And this doesn't even take into consideration how often the formula has been changed (this goes for all protein shakes).
Do I think it's worth the money.. no, but I feel the same way about all MLM and over priced protein shakes. Are they quality.. I can't say because I haven't seen any independent research.
But if it's a product that helps people get on track and get fit, and they don't mind spending the money, then it's fine.
I was thinking the same thing, I haven't seen any evidence other than that one study of 3 people (and I think only 2 of them had used Herbalife products) of liver issues being linked to Herbalife. Still not my thing, but if it helps them and they want to spend the money, that's their business.
But, by the same token......
The OP did ask for opinions in a public forum.
In reality, how often do products such as this help people to create sustainable habits that help them manage their weight on a long term basis?
Probably the same success rate as all other programs, which includes calorie counting, carb counting, etc...
I doubt that, especially after knowing a lot of people who successfully lose weight eating real food and keeping it off. There are countless stories of the same type here and at other message boards of people eating real food and successfully managing their weight.
Let's face it herbalife is a quick fix for the majority of people who use it.
So you can still drink a protein shake and then eat real food throughout the day. That is what my wife does. She can't and doesn't eat breakfast. She needs to be awake for a few hours before even considering food. So she drinks a protein shake a few hours after my son wakes up and then a light lunch. Many of these plans, are only replacing one meal with a meal replace or replace a snack.
Also, the success forums at places like teambeachbody and other sites are equally large as the people here. In fact, used to be on the BB website and saw new ones everyday. And while I never did the supplements and I did the workouts and glad I did. The reason you don't see much success over here about these programs is because when they post, they get a lot of opinions on their approach.
Lemon, I am not sure we are talking about the same thing.
You're saying your wife has protein shakes because she can't stomach food until a certain hour. Some people can't stomach solid food for awhile after waking but will have coffee, or a shake.
However, from seeing enough postings of people here where people ask about herbalife, detox teas, and other supplements, it's a sure bet that they believe those products might help them lose weight.
Yes, it you stay in a calorie deficit while drinking Herbalife, you will lose weight.
No, will not lose weight while drinking Herbalife if you do not stay in a deficit.
Herbalife is a scam and will not work unless you eat at a calorie deficit.
I recognize that they do have other products and i dont believe in them. They do have basic protein shakes and of course CICO would still apply. By no means am i debating against that. I just laugh at the fearmongering about liver damage.
I have had several friends irl that have done these programs and failed. I do try to steer them to mfp because of the success of myself and many. But many feel that approach isnt currently right for them. In the end, the most important thing is finding that strategy that can be sustained.
And tbh i do think that mlm are scams. They are way over priced and many are inferior since they are proprietary blends and usually dont contain whey or casein. But for some, that doesnt matter.1 -
Alluminati wrote: »Alluminati wrote: »Alatariel75 wrote: »diannethegeek wrote: »Never in a million years did I think I would see MFP change its stance on MLM products.
Right? Not that I'd ever want to read intention into a post or anything, but MFP had traditionally been very anti MLM and is weird to see 2 people who represent MFP on the forums in here defending the product. You gotta wonder how that looks to someone doing a Google search and finding this thread. Whether or not your intend to be the voice of MFP, you objectively represent them by being in a position of authority on their forums.
How is pointing out that people are making false claims about a product being linked to liver damage defending the product? I was under the impression that users in this community wanted to debunk false information, and in this case, the claims that people are making are not supported by the science they themselves are presenting.
Both @psulemon and I have said that we don't use the products and do not intend to do so, but we also make it clear that that decision is based on our own personal preferences. Neither of us have taken any issue with any posts in this topic where people have expressed a personal preference not to use the products, we have specifically challenged the claims about liver damage.
I would hope that anyone doing a Google search would appreciate 2 people who "represent MFP," even though we actually do not, making an effort to discuss the topic objectively and not to support the spread of misinformation based on personal opinions about the topic.
You win. Not sure why your going on. No one is arguing with you anymore.
Public message board. People are allowed to post their viewpoints, and I'm allowed to respond. You always have the option to skip over my posts or leave the topic if you don't want to read what I have to say.
Nope, I'll stay. I'm asking because no one is debating you anymore. You win. How does it feel to win?
You're welcome to stay, it doesn't bother me at all. I've only responded to you when you've quoted me and commented about something I've said. If you don't want to discuss anything with me, you're welcome to disengage, but I'm still interested in discussing the science with other users.1 -
Alluminati wrote: »Alluminati wrote: »Alatariel75 wrote: »diannethegeek wrote: »Never in a million years did I think I would see MFP change its stance on MLM products.
Right? Not that I'd ever want to read intention into a post or anything, but MFP had traditionally been very anti MLM and is weird to see 2 people who represent MFP on the forums in here defending the product. You gotta wonder how that looks to someone doing a Google search and finding this thread. Whether or not your intend to be the voice of MFP, you objectively represent them by being in a position of authority on their forums.
How is pointing out that people are making false claims about a product being linked to liver damage defending the product? I was under the impression that users in this community wanted to debunk false information, and in this case, the claims that people are making are not supported by the science they themselves are presenting.
Both @psulemon and I have said that we don't use the products and do not intend to do so, but we also make it clear that that decision is based on our own personal preferences. Neither of us have taken any issue with any posts in this topic where people have expressed a personal preference not to use the products, we have specifically challenged the claims about liver damage.
I would hope that anyone doing a Google search would appreciate 2 people who "represent MFP," even though we actually do not, making an effort to discuss the topic objectively and not to support the spread of misinformation based on personal opinions about the topic.
You win. Not sure why your going on. No one is arguing with you anymore.
Public message board. People are allowed to post their viewpoints, and I'm allowed to respond. You always have the option to skip over my posts or leave the topic if you don't want to read what I have to say.
Nope, I'll stay. I'm asking because no one is debating you anymore. You win. How does it feel to win?
You're welcome to stay, it doesn't bother me at all. I've only responded to you when you've quoted me and commented about something I've said. If you don't want to discuss anything with me, you're welcome to disengage, but I'm still interested in discussing the science with other users.
Yes you and Puslemon are doing a great job discussing science. I'm only responding to you because you are quoting me on stuff I'm saying.
Eta: I always thought when a thread turned into debate it would get moved into the Debate section of the thread but I guess that rule is only for the regular schmoes.1 -
Liver damage
2010
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3004035/
Abstract
We report three cases of patients with acute liver injury induced by weight-loss herbal supplements. One patient took Hydroxycut while the other two took Herbalife supplements. Liver biopsies for all patients demonstrated findings consistent with drug-induced acute liver injury. To our knowledge, we are the first institute to report acute liver injury from both of these two types of weight-loss herbal supplements together as a case series. The series emphasizes the importance of taking a cautious approach when consuming herbal supplements for the purpose of weight loss.
2007
http://www.journal-of-hepatology.eu/article/S0168-8278(07)00406-0/abstract
Among the 22 cases of liver damage following Herbalife® intake analyzed in the two reports, two patients developed fulminant hepatic failure requiring super urgent liver transplantation which saved one patient’s life while the second died due to postoperative complications. Causality between the intake of Herbalife® products and the evolution of liver injury was carefully assessed by internationally accepted causality scores [13,14]. In five patients, causality was labelled “certain” by a positive re-challenge reaction and “probable” in additional 13 patients. Other potential causes were ruled out in all patients
4 cases in 2004
https://www.weizmann.ac.il/immunology/elinav/sites/immunology.elinav/files/2007_elinav_j_hep.pdf
Here's some more studies for you, if you have an interest. Some of these may be repeats. And other manufacturer's products are also implicated, but it looks like you found that out already.
"Acute liver injury induced by weight-loss herbal supplements"
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3004035/
"Severe hepatotoxicity following ingestion of Herbalife nutritional supplements contaminated with Bacillus subtilis"
http://www.ifik.unibe.ch/unibe/medizin/ifik/content/e7961/e8166/e8582/e8618/bacillus_subt_herbalife_ger.pdf
"Prolonged intrahepatic cholestasis and renal failure secondary to anabolic androgenic steroid-enriched dietary supplements"
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19238093
"Hepatotoxicity associated with the use of Herbalife"
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20197595
"Herbal does not mean innocuous: ten cases of severe hepatotoxicity associated with dietary supplements from Herbalife products"
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17692989
"Association between consumption of Herbalife nutritional supplements and acute hepatotoxicity"
http://wws.weizmann.ac.il/immunology/elinav/sites/immunology.elinav/files/2007_elinav_j_hep.pdf
See also, http://www.mlmwatch.org/04C/Herbalife/herbalife00.html
Happy reading
I went searching for the linked article that is in Icelandic, hoping to find a full version in English, and I found this. Study published in 2013, evaluating hepatoxicity in subjects with positive re-exposure tests. Haven't gotten to read the whole thing, but at least it's post-2010 data, and the aim of the study was "To analyze the validity of applied test criteria and causality assessment methods in assumed Herbalife hepatotoxicity with positive reexposure tests."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3724963/pdf/WJH-5-353.pdf
Here's the link to the abstract in case in the pdf link is screwy: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3724963/
ETA: Since I got to read more, of the 8 patients examined as having positive re-exposure, it appears many if not all were cases from some of the other articles already posted.0
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