Herbalife
Replies
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In another thread, about another MLM protein powder, I posted that Shakeology's ingredients have not been verified by anyone outside Beachbody, so figured I would chime in.
The difference between Trutein and Herbalife, or Optimum Nutrition and Shakeology, is that Trutein and ON are basically protein powder and flavoring, are sold as extra protein to help you build muscle and nothing more, and have a similar price which is pretty standard across the board (give or take). My understanding at least is that it is pretty widely accepted that if you are working out in an effort to build muscle, it is important to get enough protein, and if you struggle to get it in food, a protein powder can help.
Herbalife and Shakeology say they contain all these magical superfood ingredients that will make you lose weight, stop catching colds, clear your skin, and load you full of anti-oxidants that will make you healthier. And because of this they are a bargain at 3, 4, or 5 times the price. They are making unsubstantiated health claims and will not (or cannot) prove that a) those ingredients are present in any measurable amount and b) that those ingredients actually do what they claim. So my read on the situation is that they are Slimfast with a fraudulent label.
Based on that alone, I feel confident saying they are a low-quality, overpriced scam. They might contain a good quality protein powder in them, but why should I even believe that when they are drowning it in woo?
You could make a "meal replacement" shake by blending up your protein powder with some milk, oats, and whatever cheap greens you can find in your supermarket for less money. Or buy the meal replacement shakes they sell in Walmart or Target or the grocery store - at least you'll be getting what you paid for. I might be a little over-passionate about this because I spent more than $1000 over the course of a year on Shakeology and it pisses me off now that I know better. I really wanted to be healthy and natural and smarter than the SAD and was naive enough to fall for that crap
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Not that I support herbalife,but the notion that 3 anomalies qualifies as causation is a bit disturbing; especially considering the links between herbalife and liver issues happened in 2010. A time period in which a ton of protein shakes were linked to high levels of heavy metals. And this doesn't even take into consideration how often the formula has been changed (this goes for all protein shakes).
Do I think it's worth the money.. no, but I feel the same way about all MLM and over priced protein shakes. Are they quality.. I can't say because I haven't seen any independent research.
But if it's a product that helps people get on track and get fit, and they don't mind spending the money, then it's fine.Not that I support herbalife,but the notion that 3 anomalies qualifies as causation is a bit disturbing; especially considering the links between herbalife and liver issues happened in 2010. A time period in which a ton of protein shakes were linked to high levels of heavy metals. And this doesn't even take into consideration how often the formula has been changed (this goes for all protein shakes).
Do I think it's worth the money.. no, but I feel the same way about all MLM and over priced protein shakes. Are they quality.. I can't say because I haven't seen any independent research.
But if it's a product that helps people get on track and get fit, and they don't mind spending the money, then it's fine.
I was thinking the same thing, I haven't seen any evidence other than that one study of 3 people (and I think only 2 of them had used Herbalife products) of liver issues being linked to Herbalife. Still not my thing, but if it helps them and they want to spend the money, that's their business.
But, by the same token......
The OP did ask for opinions in a public forum.
In reality, how often do products such as this help people to create sustainable habits that help them manage their weight on a long term basis?
Probably the same success rate as all other programs, which includes calorie counting, carb counting, etc...
I doubt that, especially after knowing a lot of people who successfully lose weight eating real food and keeping it off. There are countless stories of the same type here and at other message boards of people eating real food and successfully managing their weight.
Let's face it herbalife is a quick fix for the majority of people who use it.
So you can still drink a protein shake and then eat real food throughout the day. That is what my wife does. She can't and doesn't eat breakfast. She needs to be awake for a few hours before even considering food. So she drinks a protein shake a few hours after my son wakes up and then a light lunch. Many of these plans, are only replacing one meal with a meal replace or replace a snack.
Also, the success forums at places like teambeachbody and other sites are equally large as the people here. In fact, used to be on the BB website and saw new ones everyday. And while I never did the supplements and I did the workouts and glad I did. The reason you don't see much success over here about these programs is because when they post, they get a lot of opinions on their approach.
Lemon, I am not sure we are talking about the same thing.
You're saying your wife has protein shakes because she can't stomach food until a certain hour. Some people can't stomach solid food for awhile after waking but will have coffee, or a shake.
However, from seeing enough postings of people here where people ask about herbalife, detox teas, and other supplements, it's a sure bet that they believe those products might help them lose weight.
Yes, it you stay in a calorie deficit while drinking Herbalife, you will lose weight.
No, will not lose weight while drinking Herbalife if you do not stay in a deficit.
Herbalife is a scam and will not work unless you eat at a calorie deficit.
I recognize that they do have other products and i dont believe in them. They do have basic protein shakes and of course CICO would still apply. By no means am i debating against that. I just laugh at the fearmongering about liver damage.
I have had several friends irl that have done these programs and failed. I do try to steer them to mfp because of the success of myself and many. But many feel that approach isnt currently right for them. In the end, the most important thing is finding that strategy that can be sustained.
And tbh i do think that mlm are scams. They are way over priced and many are inferior since they are proprietary blends and usually dont contain whey or casein. But for some, that doesnt matter.
Thanks you for sharing this, I appreciate it.0 -
I have struggled to lose weight for a long time until I tried Herbalife! A shake for breakfast is all I do and it works very well.0
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So when is the new UA shake being introduced?10
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Alan Aragon
May 9, 2014 ·
I regularly get questions about this or that MLM product, whether it be Advocare, Herbalife, Visalus, Isagenix, or Whateverthehell. I am yet to come across a health/nutrition-related MLM company that doesn't economize production costs with sub-par nutritional formulations, especially the protein-containing products (for example, MLMs love to use soy as the first ingredient or fructose as the second ingredient). Adding insult to injury, these protein-based products cost at least double that of the leading non-MLM brands that actually use higher-quality protein formulations. To top it all off, these mediocre MLM products are hyped as the best things on the market, and of course they rely on the emotional triggers of zealous testimonials rather than the weight of the scientific evidence. So yeah, my opinion of MLM-based nutritional products is LOL (yes, let the hurt flow through your butt over that).8 -
sammrowles wrote: »I have struggled to lose weight for a long time until I tried Herbalife! A shake for breakfast is all I do and it works very well.
That's because the shake you drink now is less calories then the breakfast you used to eat, or you are choosing to cut calories elsewhere.
Either way, it's the calorie deficit causing the weight loss and not the shake.
This calorie deficit can be accomplished without shakes.4 -
Liver damage
2007
http://www.journal-of-hepatology.eu/article/S0168-8278(07)00406-0/abstract
Among the 22 cases of liver damage following Herbalife® intake analyzed in the two reports, two patients developed fulminant hepatic failure requiring super urgent liver transplantation which saved one patient’s life while the second died due to postoperative complications. Causality between the intake of Herbalife® products and the evolution of liver injury was carefully assessed by internationally accepted causality scores [13,14]. In five patients, causality was labelled “certain” by a positive re-challenge reaction and “probable” in additional 13 patients. Other potential causes were ruled out in all patients
From that same article:
"However, the two reports raise more questions than they answer. Although causality was tested appropriately, it remains entirely speculative what might have been the cause of liver damage in the 22 patients. The patients took between 3 and 17 different Herbalife products which makes it extremely difficult, if not impossible, to identify the crucial compound(s)."
So they couldn't find the exact compound across a maximum of 17 different Herbalife products yet on internationally accepted causality scores ..5 cases were "certain" and 13 "probable"...I'm unclear why this is being held up as that's ok then ....liver damage is a fairly severe result of a "health" food ingestion
The article goes on to say that they were not able to get information from Herbalife, and in light of that:
Also concerning don't you think?
"However, due to this lack of cooperation, attempts should have been made by the investigators to analyze the ingested Herbalife products for toxins, microbial contamination or to screen affected individuals for possible immunoal-lergic reactions to the consumed material. While this was not possible in the Swiss series due to retrospective data collection, at least one of the Israeli cases was apparently followed up recently as the relapse was noticed. However, neither the batch taken by these patients nor those taken by the other patients
were subjected to a closer analysis, although all patients were contacted personally."
So they never actually examined the products the people claim to have ingested. Further,
the company did not care to help them determine the cause of severe health issues that had a proven link to their product ...that is reprehensible ...imagine if you were connected with one of those families...a son, a sister, a daughter or friend? Simply horrifying!
"Another explanation for Herbalife-associated liver damage could be a locally restricted contamination with chemicals such as softeners, preservatives, flavour enhancers, pesticides, or heavy metals either intentionally added during the manufacturing process or contained in the unrefined raw products, i.e. herb extracts [17]."
I believe @psulemon initially touched on the issues with metals that were prominent in many supplements during that time, and the local contamination issue is an important consideration, as
"It remains speculative why cases of Herbalife hepatotoxicity were only noticed in Switzerland and Israel, although Herbalife products are sold in at least 60 countries all over the world. Based on experiences with adverse drug reactions due to synthetic drugs, simple probability should have led to additional incidents of Herbalife-associated hepatotoxicity. Isolated series of drug-induced liver damage are highly suggestive of either significant underreporting in other countries with a more widespread consumption, or indicate the specific distribution of ‘‘spoiled’’ or contaminated batches. However, as the Swiss authors rightly state, the ‘‘threat to the public health’’ from Herbalife products is minor and should not be exaggerated when compared with incidence rates of adverse hepatic reactions of other over-the-counter pharmaceuticals such as non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs [18]."
That's ok then ..Herbalife did not co-operate with the investigation and I'm not Swiss or Israeli ...hence those people and their lives do not matter *sarcastic kitten*
It does not appear that the author is making an indisputable case for Herbalife being linked to liver damage, and even the Swiss did not feel that these incidents were cause for concern about the products and liver damage.
please note that I am in no way talking about any MFP poster but about this type of analysis of the available scientific reports. I think we all appreciate how easy it is to cherry pick to prove a point.
For me personally, and I appreciate that others may not and clearly do not feel the same way and that is their right ...the existence of 1 case of adverse health effects and the lack of a company's cooperation in identifying and eliminating the source would be enough for me to become enraged.
I think anybody who lives with anybody with any kind of chronic health impairment would feel the same ...health is not something we should ever take for granted nor treat lightly
And with that I'm out ...I don't actually find this an easy topic to discuss, but I've just been a little stunned on the sea change on reading this thread5 -
Whether or not it causes liver damage, it is still an MLM with annoying salesmen who will say anything to sell their over priced, sub par products. They don't need any fitness training to be advising anyone on health and some misrepresent themselves or outright lie to get sales. Sorry but people need to know this and not get taken in. So while you sit there feeling all scholarly because your debating the health benefits of Herbalife (lol), I'm going to stick to common sense and stay away and advising others to do the same. I don't care if the advice is taken or not but at least I said something.4
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In another thread, about another MLM protein powder, I posted that Shakeology's ingredients have not been verified by anyone outside Beachbody, so figured I would chime in.
The difference between Trutein and Herbalife, or Optimum Nutrition and Shakeology, is that Trutein and ON are basically protein powder and flavoring, are sold as extra protein to help you build muscle and nothing more, and have a similar price which is pretty standard across the board (give or take). My understanding at least is that it is pretty widely accepted that if you are working out in an effort to build muscle, it is important to get enough protein, and if you struggle to get it in food, a protein powder can help.
Herbalife and Shakeology say they contain all these magical superfood ingredients that will make you lose weight, stop catching colds, clear your skin, and load you full of anti-oxidants that will make you healthier. And because of this they are a bargain at 3, 4, or 5 times the price. They are making unsubstantiated health claims and will not (or cannot) prove that a) those ingredients are present in any measurable amount and b) that those ingredients actually do what they claim. So my read on the situation is that they are Slimfast with a fraudulent label.
Based on that alone, I feel confident saying they are a low-quality, overpriced scam. They might contain a good quality protein powder in them, but why should I even believe that when they are drowning it in woo?
You could make a "meal replacement" shake by blending up your protein powder with some milk, oats, and whatever cheap greens you can find in your supermarket for less money. Or buy the meal replacement shakes they sell in Walmart or Target or the grocery store - at least you'll be getting what you paid for. I might be a little over-passionate about this because I spent more than $1000 over the course of a year on Shakeology and it pisses me off now that I know better. I really wanted to be healthy and natural and smarter than the SAD and was naive enough to fall for that crap
So let me speak in terms of shakeology, since i have much greater insights into their stuff but I feel it can apply to all MLM shakes. Beachbody fully recognizes you have to cut calories. In fact, their shakeology commercials or at least the ones I have seen, all allude to using shakeology to cut calories. Essentially, use shakeology to replace one of your high calorie meals to help cut calories with a potential outcome of losing weight. Now, I do get they play on the fact of superfoods and don't recognize the dosage part of it, which I find a bit ridiculous, but that is marketing and there may be some study that supports that to some standard.
Honestly, Alan Aragon has one of that best arguments against MLM's. And my personal views are in line with that. They are over-hyped and inferior in terms of ingredients. Not this non sense that it's going to cause liver damage.
On a side note, since Herbalife and Beachbody have a lot of other supplements. The bodybuilding industry does the same thing. How many of these protein companies promote BCAAs, pre -, intra and post - workouts, and a plethora of other "muscle building" products? It just makes me laugh.1 -
Alluminati wrote: »Whether or not it causes liver damage, it is still an MLM with annoying salesmen who will say anything to sell their over priced, sub par products. They don't need any fitness training to be advising anyone on health and some misrepresent themselves or outright lie to get sales. Sorry but people need to know this and not get taken in. So while you sit there feeling all scholarly because your debating the health benefits of Herbalife (lol), I'm going to stick to common sense and stay away and advising others to do the same. I don't care if the advice is taken or not but at least I said something.
Literally, no one is arguing they have good practices. That, in itself, is a good reason to stay away from companies. It's a much better reason, as it the abstract from Alan Aragon, to stay away from MLM's and exactly why I am doing it. But fearmongering is fearmongering, regardless of what it's about. And that is what @kgeyser and are debating.
Also, for future reference, if you feel something has turned into a debate, you can report it. A mod that isn't within the thread will evaluate it and make a determination. Since this OP is from a long time ago and hasn't returned, there is some probably it would get moved.0 -
In another thread, about another MLM protein powder, I posted that Shakeology's ingredients have not been verified by anyone outside Beachbody, so figured I would chime in.
The difference between Trutein and Herbalife, or Optimum Nutrition and Shakeology, is that Trutein and ON are basically protein powder and flavoring, are sold as extra protein to help you build muscle and nothing more, and have a similar price which is pretty standard across the board (give or take). My understanding at least is that it is pretty widely accepted that if you are working out in an effort to build muscle, it is important to get enough protein, and if you struggle to get it in food, a protein powder can help.
Herbalife and Shakeology say they contain all these magical superfood ingredients that will make you lose weight, stop catching colds, clear your skin, and load you full of anti-oxidants that will make you healthier. And because of this they are a bargain at 3, 4, or 5 times the price. They are making unsubstantiated health claims and will not (or cannot) prove that a) those ingredients are present in any measurable amount and b) that those ingredients actually do what they claim. So my read on the situation is that they are Slimfast with a fraudulent label.
Based on that alone, I feel confident saying they are a low-quality, overpriced scam. They might contain a good quality protein powder in them, but why should I even believe that when they are drowning it in woo?
You could make a "meal replacement" shake by blending up your protein powder with some milk, oats, and whatever cheap greens you can find in your supermarket for less money. Or buy the meal replacement shakes they sell in Walmart or Target or the grocery store - at least you'll be getting what you paid for. I might be a little over-passionate about this because I spent more than $1000 over the course of a year on Shakeology and it pisses me off now that I know better. I really wanted to be healthy and natural and smarter than the SAD and was naive enough to fall for that crap
So let me speak in terms of shakeology, since i have much greater insights into their stuff but I feel it can apply to all MLM shakes. Beachbody fully recognizes you have to cut calories. In fact, their shakeology commercials or at least the ones I have seen, all allude to using shakeology to cut calories. Essentially, use shakeology to replace one of your high calorie meals to help cut calories with a potential outcome of losing weight. Now, I do get they play on the fact of superfoods and don't recognize the dosage part of it, which I find a bit ridiculous, but that is marketing and there may be some study that supports that to some standard.
Honestly, Alan Aragon has one of that best arguments against MLM's. And my personal views are in line with that. They are over-hyped and inferior in terms of ingredients. Not this non sense that it's going to cause liver damage.
On a side note, since Herbalife and Beachbody have a lot of other supplements. The bodybuilding industry does the same thing. How many of these protein companies promote BCAAs, pre -, intra and post - workouts, and a plethora of other "muscle building" products? It just makes me laugh.
Nobody said going to cause liver damage did they
Merely commented on how it has been proven in the past to be responsible for severe liver damage and even death and that the company was uncooperative in establishing whether contaminated batch or constituent
It is not possible to rephrase that as being OK IMHO, unless we are going to go Hacuna Matata on it ...that feels like saying "sheesh it happened in the last decade, so who cares any more?"
On the other point, in my opinion economically MLM is a reprehensible business model trying to legitimise pyramid selling where the top 1% make the money and late joiners don't ..this is not allowed in many countries but it seems US legislation has been twisted over the years because of some powerful groups leaving those loopholes that they are struggling to close
I don't know this publication but this was from a Google search and from may this year
"The sad truth is that the vast majority of the aspirants who sign up for an MLM—18.2 million in the U.S. in 2014 alone—will lose their money trying to make a go of a business opportunity that is, in fact, simply too good to be true.
In many MLMs, high-pressured salespeople convince participants to join in, dangling riches before their eyes as they’re led to make big, upfront purchases of pricey products, then try to recruit others under them to do the same in the hopes of earning big commissions. At Herbalife, the costs of renting space for recruiting venues known as nutrition clubs, along with fat fees for “university” classes and pep-rally conferences known as “extravaganzas,” make it even harder for salespeople to make a profit as a saturated market becomes almost impenetrable. Last year, the top 1 percent of Herbalife’s 545,160 so-called “members” in the U.S. made almost 90 percent of the earnings—and that group rarely lets in new names. "
http://www.slate.com/articles/business/moneybox/2016/05/the_government_is_finally_closing_in_on_herbalife_herbalife_will_fight_back.html
Reading behind the publication it seems that slate plays contrarian views as a marketing pitch ...I wonder if this is a contrarian view in the American market and whether the facts can be played otherwise2 -
I object to MLMs like Shakeo and Herbadeath because of their marketing practices that target the vulnerable and uninformed. Even if their products were actually of good quality and offered at a fair market value, the fact that they need to be hawked in this manner in order to be profitable for those at the top of the corporate food chain makes them unscrupulous imho.
And for as long as threads like these exist, there will be members here who will try to get the message out that in spite of the hype, these are sub-par products offered by 'coaches' who are as ignorant about nutrition as they are about how badly they themselves are being exploited by the MLM system.
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diannethegeek wrote: »Never in a million years did I think I would see MFP change its stance on MLM products.
So when did @kgeyser and myself become the voice/stance of MFP? Also, you should probably read my post again and read what I actually wrote. I don't support, nor would I ever buy a supplement from an MLM (I will note that I lost 50 lbs by using BeachBody workouts). But I do know people personally, who have lost the weight and kept it off by using things like advocare and shakeology. I would never use that approach, but I understand that different things work for others. And honestly, if someone got fit from it, why is is such a big deal.
What I am arguing is how people make their assessment? How is overpaying for a protein shake like this any different than people buying Trutein, PEScience or others vs buying body fortress?
What I want to know is why are you giving people a hard time when you've done it many, many times yourself over the past few years?
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/comment/21056668/#Comment_210566682 -
Liver damage
2007
http://www.journal-of-hepatology.eu/article/S0168-8278(07)00406-0/abstract
Among the 22 cases of liver damage following Herbalife® intake analyzed in the two reports, two patients developed fulminant hepatic failure requiring super urgent liver transplantation which saved one patient’s life while the second died due to postoperative complications. Causality between the intake of Herbalife® products and the evolution of liver injury was carefully assessed by internationally accepted causality scores [13,14]. In five patients, causality was labelled “certain” by a positive re-challenge reaction and “probable” in additional 13 patients. Other potential causes were ruled out in all patients
From that same article:
"However, the two reports raise more questions than they answer. Although causality was tested appropriately, it remains entirely speculative what might have been the cause of liver damage in the 22 patients. The patients took between 3 and 17 different Herbalife products which makes it extremely difficult, if not impossible, to identify the crucial compound(s)."
So they couldn't find the exact compound across a maximum of 17 different Herbalife products yet on internationally accepted causality scores ..5 cases were "certain" and 13 "probable"...I'm unclear why this is being held up as that's ok then ....liver damage is a fairly severe result of a "health" food ingestion
The article goes on to say that they were not able to get information from Herbalife, and in light of that:
Also concerning don't you think?
"However, due to this lack of cooperation, attempts should have been made by the investigators to analyze the ingested Herbalife products for toxins, microbial contamination or to screen affected individuals for possible immunoal-lergic reactions to the consumed material. While this was not possible in the Swiss series due to retrospective data collection, at least one of the Israeli cases was apparently followed up recently as the relapse was noticed. However, neither the batch taken by these patients nor those taken by the other patients
were subjected to a closer analysis, although all patients were contacted personally."
So they never actually examined the products the people claim to have ingested. Further,
the company did not care to help them determine the cause of severe health issues that had a proven link to their product ...that is reprehensible ...imagine if you were connected with one of those families...a son, a sister, a daughter or friend? Simply horrifying!
"Another explanation for Herbalife-associated liver damage could be a locally restricted contamination with chemicals such as softeners, preservatives, flavour enhancers, pesticides, or heavy metals either intentionally added during the manufacturing process or contained in the unrefined raw products, i.e. herb extracts [17]."
I believe @psulemon initially touched on the issues with metals that were prominent in many supplements during that time, and the local contamination issue is an important consideration, as
"It remains speculative why cases of Herbalife hepatotoxicity were only noticed in Switzerland and Israel, although Herbalife products are sold in at least 60 countries all over the world. Based on experiences with adverse drug reactions due to synthetic drugs, simple probability should have led to additional incidents of Herbalife-associated hepatotoxicity. Isolated series of drug-induced liver damage are highly suggestive of either significant underreporting in other countries with a more widespread consumption, or indicate the specific distribution of ‘‘spoiled’’ or contaminated batches. However, as the Swiss authors rightly state, the ‘‘threat to the public health’’ from Herbalife products is minor and should not be exaggerated when compared with incidence rates of adverse hepatic reactions of other over-the-counter pharmaceuticals such as non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs [18]."
That's ok then ..Herbalife did not co-operate with the investigation and I'm not Swiss or Israeli ...hence those people and their lives do not matter *sarcastic kitten*
It does not appear that the author is making an indisputable case for Herbalife being linked to liver damage, and even the Swiss did not feel that these incidents were cause for concern about the products and liver damage.
please note that I am in no way talking about any MFP poster but about this type of analysis of the available scientific reports. I think we all appreciate how easy it is to cherry pick to prove a point.
For me personally, and I appreciate that others may not and clearly do not feel the same way and that is their right ...the existence of 1 case of adverse health effects and the lack of a company's cooperation in identifying and eliminating the source would be enough for me to become enraged.
I think anybody who lives with anybody with any kind of chronic health impairment would feel the same ...health is not something we should ever take for granted nor treat lightly
And with that I'm out ...I don't actually find this an easy topic to discuss, but I've just been a little stunned on the sea change on reading this thread
I highlighted the bolded because you seem to be ignoring what the science in the article you posted actually says. Based on your comments in blue, you are completely ignoring that the article says that the conclusions that there was a proven link between Herbalife and liver damage are unsupported, and are focusing more on emotional reactions because of personal views about the company. I'm not even sure how you are getting "Swiss and Israeli lives don't matter," especially after the article you posted quotes the Swiss authors as saying "the "threat to the public health" is minor and shouldn't be exaggerated when compared to incidence rates of adverse hepatic reactions of other over-the counter pharmaceuticals such as NSAIDS ."
NSAIDS are items like aspirin and ibubrofen; they are still on the market and companies have not eliminated the product despite having a higher incident of liver damage associated with the products than Herbalife. And before anyone starts in on "context" and "dosage," wouldn't those things also be relevant in criticisms about adverse reactions to Herbalife, but none of the studies seem to provide data on which products the people took or the amounts to examine the possibility of overdoses resulting in adverse reactions?
If you refer to the more recent study I posted in which they look are re-exposure, 4 of the subjects are from the Israeli and Swiss studies, and in all four cases their continuing issues with adverse liver reactions were found to be unlikely to have anything to do with Herbalife, and one of the was diagnosed with chronic Hepatitis E and excluded the possibility that it was related to Herbalife. The authors also include this snippet in the comments: "For hepatotoxicity cases, stringent causality assessment is mandatory, since the culprit remains undetected in up to 38% of severe liver disease. Alternative causes are frequently found, with up to 47% in initially assumed drug induced liver disease, and with an average of 49% in initially suspected herb induced liver injury." This makes the methodological concerns from the article you posted even more suspect, if nearly half the cases of suspected drug and herb induced injury result in alternative causes and the researchers did not do their due diligence in fully exploring the possibility of things like product contamination, which I believe was the cause of damage in one of the studies Sloth2016 posted.
As I have said repeatedly, I don't use MLM stuff and I have no desire to do so, and I believe people should make their own decisions based on their own research and viewpoints. I haven't challenged any statement anyone has made about not wanting to use MLMs as a matter of personal preference, I'm simply challenging the statement about liver damage.0 -
Alluminati wrote: »Whether or not it causes liver damage, it is still an MLM with annoying salesmen who will say anything to sell their over priced, sub par products. They don't need any fitness training to be advising anyone on health and some misrepresent themselves or outright lie to get sales. Sorry but people need to know this and not get taken in. So while you sit there feeling all scholarly because your debating the health benefits of Herbalife (lol), I'm going to stick to common sense and stay away and advising others to do the same. I don't care if the advice is taken or not but at least I said something.
Literally, no one is arguing they have good practices. That, in itself, is a good reason to stay away from companies. It's a much better reason, as it the abstract from Alan Aragon, to stay away from MLM's and exactly why I am doing it. But fearmongering is fearmongering, regardless of what it's about. And that is what @kgeyser and are debating.
Also, for future reference, if you feel something has turned into a debate, you can report it. A mod that isn't within the thread will evaluate it and make a determination. Since this OP is from a long time ago and hasn't returned, there is some probably it would get moved.
Did I say anyone was arguing their practices? No. Did I fearmonger anyone? Nope. WHy you feel the need to pick my post is baffling.0 -
I'm out, because now this thread feels like baiting. Peace.0
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nutmegoreo wrote: »So when is the new UA shake being introduced?
This was my thought as well. Cheers.2 -
In another thread, about another MLM protein powder, I posted that Shakeology's ingredients have not been verified by anyone outside Beachbody, so figured I would chime in.
The difference between Trutein and Herbalife, or Optimum Nutrition and Shakeology, is that Trutein and ON are basically protein powder and flavoring, are sold as extra protein to help you build muscle and nothing more, and have a similar price which is pretty standard across the board (give or take). My understanding at least is that it is pretty widely accepted that if you are working out in an effort to build muscle, it is important to get enough protein, and if you struggle to get it in food, a protein powder can help.
Herbalife and Shakeology say they contain all these magical superfood ingredients that will make you lose weight, stop catching colds, clear your skin, and load you full of anti-oxidants that will make you healthier. And because of this they are a bargain at 3, 4, or 5 times the price. They are making unsubstantiated health claims and will not (or cannot) prove that a) those ingredients are present in any measurable amount and b) that those ingredients actually do what they claim. So my read on the situation is that they are Slimfast with a fraudulent label.
Based on that alone, I feel confident saying they are a low-quality, overpriced scam. They might contain a good quality protein powder in them, but why should I even believe that when they are drowning it in woo?
You could make a "meal replacement" shake by blending up your protein powder with some milk, oats, and whatever cheap greens you can find in your supermarket for less money. Or buy the meal replacement shakes they sell in Walmart or Target or the grocery store - at least you'll be getting what you paid for. I might be a little over-passionate about this because I spent more than $1000 over the course of a year on Shakeology and it pisses me off now that I know better. I really wanted to be healthy and natural and smarter than the SAD and was naive enough to fall for that crap
So let me speak in terms of shakeology, since i have much greater insights into their stuff but I feel it can apply to all MLM shakes. Beachbody fully recognizes you have to cut calories. In fact, their shakeology commercials or at least the ones I have seen, all allude to using shakeology to cut calories. Essentially, use shakeology to replace one of your high calorie meals to help cut calories with a potential outcome of losing weight. Now, I do get they play on the fact of superfoods and don't recognize the dosage part of it, which I find a bit ridiculous, but that is marketing and there may be some study that supports that to some standard.
Honestly, Alan Aragon has one of that best arguments against MLM's. And my personal views are in line with that. They are over-hyped and inferior in terms of ingredients. Not this non sense that it's going to cause liver damage.
On a side note, since Herbalife and Beachbody have a lot of other supplements. The bodybuilding industry does the same thing. How many of these protein companies promote BCAAs, pre -, intra and post - workouts, and a plethora of other "muscle building" products? It just makes me laugh.
Well.....why not just reduce the size of the meal instead?2 -
Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »nutmegoreo wrote: »So when is the new UA shake being introduced?
This was my thought as well. Cheers.
Me too!1 -
In another thread, about another MLM protein powder, I posted that Shakeology's ingredients have not been verified by anyone outside Beachbody, so figured I would chime in.
The difference between Trutein and Herbalife, or Optimum Nutrition and Shakeology, is that Trutein and ON are basically protein powder and flavoring, are sold as extra protein to help you build muscle and nothing more, and have a similar price which is pretty standard across the board (give or take). My understanding at least is that it is pretty widely accepted that if you are working out in an effort to build muscle, it is important to get enough protein, and if you struggle to get it in food, a protein powder can help.
Herbalife and Shakeology say they contain all these magical superfood ingredients that will make you lose weight, stop catching colds, clear your skin, and load you full of anti-oxidants that will make you healthier. And because of this they are a bargain at 3, 4, or 5 times the price. They are making unsubstantiated health claims and will not (or cannot) prove that a) those ingredients are present in any measurable amount and b) that those ingredients actually do what they claim. So my read on the situation is that they are Slimfast with a fraudulent label.
Based on that alone, I feel confident saying they are a low-quality, overpriced scam. They might contain a good quality protein powder in them, but why should I even believe that when they are drowning it in woo?
You could make a "meal replacement" shake by blending up your protein powder with some milk, oats, and whatever cheap greens you can find in your supermarket for less money. Or buy the meal replacement shakes they sell in Walmart or Target or the grocery store - at least you'll be getting what you paid for. I might be a little over-passionate about this because I spent more than $1000 over the course of a year on Shakeology and it pisses me off now that I know better. I really wanted to be healthy and natural and smarter than the SAD and was naive enough to fall for that crap
So let me speak in terms of shakeology, since i have much greater insights into their stuff but I feel it can apply to all MLM shakes. Beachbody fully recognizes you have to cut calories. In fact, their shakeology commercials or at least the ones I have seen, all allude to using shakeology to cut calories. Essentially, use shakeology to replace one of your high calorie meals to help cut calories with a potential outcome of losing weight. Now, I do get they play on the fact of superfoods and don't recognize the dosage part of it, which I find a bit ridiculous, but that is marketing and there may be some study that supports that to some standard.
Honestly, Alan Aragon has one of that best arguments against MLM's. And my personal views are in line with that. They are over-hyped and inferior in terms of ingredients. Not this non sense that it's going to cause liver damage.
On a side note, since Herbalife and Beachbody have a lot of other supplements. The bodybuilding industry does the same thing. How many of these protein companies promote BCAAs, pre -, intra and post - workouts, and a plethora of other "muscle building" products? It just makes me laugh.
Well.....why not just reduce the size of the meal instead?
Because that's not magical enough?
1
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