Welcome to Debate Club! Please be aware that this is a space for respectful debate, and that your ideas will be challenged here. Please remember to critique the argument, not the author.
CrossFit
Options
Replies
-
I like that it is getting people to use a barbell. I like that it is encouraging hard work.
I dislike group think. I dislike elitism. I dislike AMRAP snatches or any other technical movement.2 -
stevencloser wrote: »Generally I think that Crossfit has become the whipping boy of the fitness industry.
I do admit that it's funny, but at the same time I think that Crossfit tends to get some things very right even though they also get some things very wrong, IMO.
Random notes:
1) I don't tend to agree with how some things are programmed (or lack of programming perhaps). A bit more structured overload and a LOT less randomness would probably benefit people for strength and hypertrophy.
2) Performing technically complex movements at high levels of fatigue is a good recipe for injury.
3) Certain sub cultures seem to wear injuries like a badge of honor but in fairness that's not a judgement that can extend to all of crossfit.
But what they get right:
a) Social support and community. This is freaking HUUUUUUGE and obviously they do it well, because every crossfitter to ever exist tells you they crossfit. (lol)
b) They are bringing barbell lifting to the mainstream. Another huge plus.
c) They are getting people to train hard using a variety of modalities.
In my opinion crossfit is definitely a huge net-positive, even though I do still make crossfit jokes
i pretty much agree with this ...
although, some of the moves they have people doing seem to be lacking form ...like Kipping Pullups...
I knew we would eventually get to kipping. While not a CF expert by any means, the kipping pull up requires a definite form and technique. It is similar in concept to a clean or jerk.
Im sure kipping pullups are supposed to have Form. Unfortunately, If your goal is "do as many as you can dish out in A minute", Form is the first thing that flies out the window.sappermuff wrote: »I like that it is getting people to use a barbell. I like that it is encouraging hard work.
I dislike group think. I dislike elitism. I dislike AMRAP snatches or any other technical movement.
This and this.0 -
Generally I think that Crossfit has become the whipping boy of the fitness industry.
I do admit that it's funny, but at the same time I think that Crossfit tends to get some things very right even though they also get some things very wrong, IMO.
Random notes:
1) I don't tend to agree with how some things are programmed (or lack of programming perhaps). A bit more structured overload and a LOT less randomness would probably benefit people for strength and hypertrophy.
2) Performing technically complex movements at high levels of fatigue is a good recipe for injury.
3) Certain sub cultures seem to wear injuries like a badge of honor but in fairness that's not a judgement that can extend to all of crossfit.
But what they get right:
a) Social support and community. This is freaking HUUUUUUGE and obviously they do it well, because every crossfitter to ever exist tells you they crossfit. (lol)
b) They are bringing barbell lifting to the mainstream. Another huge plus.
c) They are getting people to train hard using a variety of modalities.
In my opinion crossfit is definitely a huge net-positive, even though I do still make crossfit jokes
i pretty much agree with this ...
although, some of the moves they have people doing seem to be lacking form ...like Kipping Pullups...
I knew we would eventually get to kipping. While not a CF expert by any means, the kipping pull up requires a definite form and technique. It is similar in concept to a clean or jerk.
what form is that? Throwing your legs up in the air like a maniac?
The kip engages the core by starting from the hang and pushing the "hips and shoulders forward and then relaxing, push forward and then relax, until a swing develops. The athlete moves from “arched to hollow” forming a “C” alternating between belly forward, shoulder open (arched), and belly retreating, shoulder closing (hollow).
Once the swing is developed, the athlete will find the kip by giving a sharp tug upward at the back of the swing while leaning back slightly, which heaves the athlete toward the bar."
"Kipping pull-ups have the same advantages over strict pull-ups that the jerk has over the shoulder press. Each is a fundamentally more potent stimulus than its less dynamic, less powerful counterpart. Our program’s extensive reliance on the more dynamic, powerful movements holds the seeds of our athletes’ successes."
http://library.crossfit.com/free/pdf/32_05_Kipping_Pullup.pdf
ETA: Added source. (I started, then thought I should look up official documented points of performance)
Who is stronger, the person doing 20 pull-ups with perfect form or someone doing 20 kipping pull-ups in 30 seconds?
Using your body's momentum does not allow you to engage your shoulders, back, core etc...0 -
Generally I think that Crossfit has become the whipping boy of the fitness industry.
I do admit that it's funny, but at the same time I think that Crossfit tends to get some things very right even though they also get some things very wrong, IMO.
Random notes:
1) I don't tend to agree with how some things are programmed (or lack of programming perhaps). A bit more structured overload and a LOT less randomness would probably benefit people for strength and hypertrophy.
2) Performing technically complex movements at high levels of fatigue is a good recipe for injury.
3) Certain sub cultures seem to wear injuries like a badge of honor but in fairness that's not a judgement that can extend to all of crossfit.
But what they get right:
a) Social support and community. This is freaking HUUUUUUGE and obviously they do it well, because every crossfitter to ever exist tells you they crossfit. (lol)
b) They are bringing barbell lifting to the mainstream. Another huge plus.
c) They are getting people to train hard using a variety of modalities.
In my opinion crossfit is definitely a huge net-positive, even though I do still make crossfit jokes
i pretty much agree with this ...
although, some of the moves they have people doing seem to be lacking form ...like Kipping Pullups...
I knew we would eventually get to kipping. While not a CF expert by any means, the kipping pull up requires a definite form and technique. It is similar in concept to a clean or jerk.
what form is that? Throwing your legs up in the air like a maniac?
The kip engages the core by starting from the hang and pushing the "hips and shoulders forward and then relaxing, push forward and then relax, until a swing develops. The athlete moves from “arched to hollow” forming a “C” alternating between belly forward, shoulder open (arched), and belly retreating, shoulder closing (hollow).
Once the swing is developed, the athlete will find the kip by giving a sharp tug upward at the back of the swing while leaning back slightly, which heaves the athlete toward the bar."
"Kipping pull-ups have the same advantages over strict pull-ups that the jerk has over the shoulder press. Each is a fundamentally more potent stimulus than its less dynamic, less powerful counterpart. Our program’s extensive reliance on the more dynamic, powerful movements holds the seeds of our athletes’ successes."
http://library.crossfit.com/free/pdf/32_05_Kipping_Pullup.pdf
ETA: Added source. (I started, then thought I should look up official documented points of performance)
Who is stronger, the person doing 20 pull-ups with perfect form or someone doing 20 kipping pull-ups in 30 seconds?
I don't know. Why is that relevant?Using your body's momentum does not allow you to engage your shoulders, back, core etc...
What creates the momentum?0 -
Generally I think that Crossfit has become the whipping boy of the fitness industry.
I do admit that it's funny, but at the same time I think that Crossfit tends to get some things very right even though they also get some things very wrong, IMO.
Random notes:
1) I don't tend to agree with how some things are programmed (or lack of programming perhaps). A bit more structured overload and a LOT less randomness would probably benefit people for strength and hypertrophy.
2) Performing technically complex movements at high levels of fatigue is a good recipe for injury.
3) Certain sub cultures seem to wear injuries like a badge of honor but in fairness that's not a judgement that can extend to all of crossfit.
But what they get right:
a) Social support and community. This is freaking HUUUUUUGE and obviously they do it well, because every crossfitter to ever exist tells you they crossfit. (lol)
b) They are bringing barbell lifting to the mainstream. Another huge plus.
c) They are getting people to train hard using a variety of modalities.
In my opinion crossfit is definitely a huge net-positive, even though I do still make crossfit jokes
i pretty much agree with this ...
although, some of the moves they have people doing seem to be lacking form ...like Kipping Pullups...
I knew we would eventually get to kipping. While not a CF expert by any means, the kipping pull up requires a definite form and technique. It is similar in concept to a clean or jerk.
what form is that? Throwing your legs up in the air like a maniac?
The kip engages the core by starting from the hang and pushing the "hips and shoulders forward and then relaxing, push forward and then relax, until a swing develops. The athlete moves from “arched to hollow” forming a “C” alternating between belly forward, shoulder open (arched), and belly retreating, shoulder closing (hollow).
Once the swing is developed, the athlete will find the kip by giving a sharp tug upward at the back of the swing while leaning back slightly, which heaves the athlete toward the bar."
"Kipping pull-ups have the same advantages over strict pull-ups that the jerk has over the shoulder press. Each is a fundamentally more potent stimulus than its less dynamic, less powerful counterpart. Our program’s extensive reliance on the more dynamic, powerful movements holds the seeds of our athletes’ successes."
http://library.crossfit.com/free/pdf/32_05_Kipping_Pullup.pdf
ETA: Added source. (I started, then thought I should look up official documented points of performance)
Who is stronger, the person doing 20 pull-ups with perfect form or someone doing 20 kipping pull-ups in 30 seconds?
I don't know. Why is that relevant?Using your body's momentum does not allow you to engage your shoulders, back, core etc...
What creates the momentum?
Functional strength is not relevant??
Swinging your legs creates momentum which makes it easier....0 -
The functions of a strict pull up and a kipping pull up are not the same.
What muscle groups are utilized in order to create the swing?0 -
The functions of a strict pull up and a kipping pull up are not the same.
What muscle groups are utilized in order to create the swing?
What is the function of a kipping pull-up? To swing your legs so you can act like a bad *kitten* so you can say you did 30 pull-ups in 30 seconds??????0 -
The functions of a strict pull up and a kipping pull up are not the same.
What muscle groups are utilized in order to create the swing?
What is the function of a kipping pull-up? To swing your legs so you can act like a bad *kitten* so you can say you did 30 pull-ups in 30 seconds??????
I am unaware of any work out which prescribes 30 kipping pull ups in 30 seconds.0 -
The functions of a strict pull up and a kipping pull up are not the same.
What muscle groups are utilized in order to create the swing?
What is the function of a kipping pull-up? To swing your legs so you can act like a bad *kitten* so you can say you did 30 pull-ups in 30 seconds??????
I would say the object of a kipping pull up is to incorporate multiple muscle groups into a safe and repeatable motion in order to increase capacity of work potential for pulling ones body against gravity until their chest touches the bar.*
*Source: Me...just now.0 -
-
extra_medium wrote: »
ie, square tires0 -
This article explains kipping pretty well, I think. https://www.t-nation.com/training/kipping-pull-ups-the-truth
TL;DR: kipping is used by CrossFit competitors because the competition defined a pull-up as chin-above-bar, it can be dangerous if you don't already have strong shoulder muscles, learn to do strict pull-ups first, kipping can be useful to add to the end of a set of strict pull-ups to aid with hypertrophy.
My upper body strength sucks, so if I'm ever in an action-movie situation where I'm dangling from a bridge and need to pull myself back up, damn right I'm gonna kip my way back up there. Otherwise, I'm going to keep working on my strict pull-ups... So very close to getting one...0 -
Just had to post it....because it's true.
So many critiques of crossfit are valid. I can see how people wouldn't want to do high volume Olympic lifts for time. I can see that in many circumstances form is placed on a back burner. There are definitely a couple of dumb movements (I mentioned two earlier). I get that the whole "cult like mentality" is super annoying. What I really don't get the whole kipping pull-up debate. Whenever anyone talks about kipping pull-ups (and it happens in every single Crossfit debate eventually) they compare kipping pull-ups to strict pull-ups. A kipping pull-up is not used in Crossfit to elicit the same stimulus as a regular pull up. If you think they're being used in Crossfit to build the same raw strength as pull-ups you're nuts. Kipping pull-ups are used to create anaerobic demand on the musculature of the upper body. It's an efficiency movement that Crossfit has allowed to meet the standard of "pull-up" when strict pull-ups are not otherwise specified (which they often are). Stop comparing apples to oranges people.1 -
I might be an outlier -I refuse to support anything related to CrossFit. The CEO is a jerkhead who believes diabetics become diabetic by consuming too much sugar (even after Nick Jonas -a type 1 diabetic- directly addressed the CEO's comments. The CEO made a bigger fool trying to defend himself, IMO). I can exercise in ways that doesn't support false stereotypes and a narcissistic CEO.
PS: If anyone hasn't read the comments, these articles provide a good general gist:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/riva-greenberg/people-disgusted-by-cross_b_7721848.html
http://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/nick-jonas-chides-crossfit-diabetes-tweet-company-fires/story?id=321723240 -
Why I dislike crossfit as a whole:
- If you're following the crossfit WODs, you are not training, you're exercising.
- Kipping pull-ups are not pull ups. The momentum of the swinging robs you of an effective strength training technique the same way does a bounced deadlifts does.
- AMRAP on highly technical lifts is a good way to get joint injuries or drop a bar on yourself.
- CF1-level trainers receive 300 minutes of training and no practical exam.
- Crossfit gyms are horrifically expensive in my area - USD 120 a month is the lowest I've seen.
- The WODs are full of silly *kitten* like bosu ball bench press.
- Form appears to be secondary to completing a lift; this is the exact opposite of how it should be.
- Injury is expected among the participants at CF gyms during training.
- HQ is lawsuit-happy with people who diss the brand.
And finally: Winners of the CF competitions do not principally train with CF techniques - they primarily strength train and work on CF games-specific conditioning.0 -
I find this to be an odd conclusion. Can you elaborate on the differences?CipherZero wrote: »Why I dislike crossfit as a whole:- If you're following the crossfit WODs, you are not training, you're exercising.
I don't know what a bounced deadlift is, but if it means bouncing the weight off the ground, then you are talking about something completely different. A more appropriate comparison would be to the Jerk or Clean. Do you feel that those movements rob people of "effective strength training techniques"?[*] Kipping pull-ups are not pull ups. The momentum of the swinging robs you of an effective strength training technique the same way does a bounced deadlifts does.
I don't really disagree with any of this[*] AMRAP on highly technical lifts is a good way to get joint injuries or drop a bar on yourself.
[*] CF1-level trainers receive 300 minutes of training and no practical exam.
[*] Crossfit gyms are horrifically expensive in my area - USD 120 a month is the lowest I've seen.
Never seen this, but I'm sure it happens.[*] The WODs are full of silly *kitten* like bosu ball bench press.
I can only speak to my experience which only encompasses 4 different gyms, but form is a requirement for the lift. In other words, if you come out of your form, the rep doesn't count. Now this doesn't mean that coaches catch or enforce this rule as well as they should, but it is not by design secondary.[*] Form appears to be secondary to completing a lift; this is the exact opposite of how it should be.
I think this will vary greatly and is probably based on old thought from the earlier days of crossfit. This may also be something that was influenced by the early communities in which crossfit flourished (i.e. military and police)[*] Injury is expected among the participants at CF gyms during training.
I'd rather not get into politics as I feel they are irrelevant and there are plenty of practical aspects to debate.[*] HQ is lawsuit-happy with people who diss the brand.
And finally: Winners of the CF competitions do not principally train with CF techniques - they primarily strength train and work on CF games-specific conditioning.
If they are working on CF games-specific conditioning, wouldn't that be CrossFit techniques? I mean, all the stuff they do in the games is stuff I see in the classes. In any case, they have an established base in CF techniques.0 -
I don't know what a bounced deadlift is, but if it means bouncing the weight off the ground, then you are talking about something completely different. A more appropriate comparison would be to the Jerk or Clean. Do you feel that those movements rob people of "effective strength training techniques"?CipherZero wrote: »Why I dislike crossfit as a whole:
Kipping pull-ups are not pull ups. The momentum of the swinging robs you of an effective strength training technique the same way does a bounced deadlifts does.
The Jerk and Clean are properly performed lifts. A kipping pullup uses swing momentum to get the rep. Simlarly, a deadlift starts from a dead stop - hence the name. Bouncing the plates and doing another rep is using bounce momentum to get the rep.
I can only speak to my experience which only encompasses 4 different gyms, but form is a requirement for the lift. In other words, if you come out of your form, the rep doesn't count. Now this doesn't mean that coaches catch or enforce this rule as well as they should, but it is not by design secondary.CipherZero wrote: »
Form appears to be secondary to completing a lift; this is the exact opposite of how it should be.
Check out the lower tiers of a crossfit games. The reps of the non-elite athletes are horrific and allowed.
I think this will vary greatly and is probably based on old thought from the earlier days of crossfit. This may also be something that wasCipherZero wrote: »Injury is expected among the participants at CF gyms during training.
influenced by the early communities in which crossfit flourished (i.e. military and police)
Read https://www.t-nation.com/powerful-words/open-letter-to-crossfit-hq - from a doctor who was on-site for the 2015 Crossfit Games.
I'll quote one of the passages after he discusses athletes dropping from heat exhaustion and other injuries from the 120-150F floor of the center of the games:
Dave Castro, the oft-ridiculed Ryan Seacrest of the CrossFit Games, and Justin Bergh, general manager of the CrossFit Games, unceremoniously sauntered into the medical treatment area following Murph, had a short discussion with the medical director, then walked out.
No apologies, no outward expression of concern toward the affected athletes. Nothing.CipherZero wrote: »And finally: Winners of the CF competitions do not principally train with CF techniques - they primarily strength train and work on CF games-specific conditioning.
If they are working on CF games-specific conditioning, wouldn't that be CrossFit techniques? I mean, all the stuff they do in the games is stuff I see in the classes. In any case, they have an established base in CF techniques.
The strength portion of the CF games require strength, which doing the WODs will not give as the WODs are essentially randomized exercise lists.
As for the difference between training and exercising, that's a dive into esoterica and defintions that's probably better suited to another discussion.
0 -
CipherZero wrote: »
I don't know what a bounced deadlift is, but if it means bouncing the weight off the ground, then you are talking about something completely different. A more appropriate comparison would be to the Jerk or Clean. Do you feel that those movements rob people of "effective strength training techniques"?CipherZero wrote: »Why I dislike crossfit as a whole:
Kipping pull-ups are not pull ups. The momentum of the swinging robs you of an effective strength training technique the same way does a bounced deadlifts does.
The Jerk and Clean are properly performed lifts. A kipping pullup uses swing momentum to get the rep. Simlarly, a deadlift starts from a dead stop - hence the name. Bouncing the plates and doing another rep is using bounce momentum to get the rep.
Why is kipping not a properly performed lift? Doesn't the clean and jerk use momentum of the body to get the rep?
1 -
CipherZero wrote: »
I can only speak to my experience which only encompasses 4 different gyms, but form is a requirement for the lift. In other words, if you come out of your form, the rep doesn't count. Now this doesn't mean that coaches catch or enforce this rule as well as they should, but it is not by design secondary.CipherZero wrote: »
Form appears to be secondary to completing a lift; this is the exact opposite of how it should be.
Check out the lower tiers of a crossfit games. The reps of the non-elite athletes are horrific and allowed.
I know at the lowest levels, specific points of performance are outlined and identified. Reps which don't meet the criteria are not supposed to be counted. I have personally witnessed competitors "no-reped" for bad form during competition at the very lowest levels of the games.1 -
CipherZero wrote: »CipherZero wrote: »And finally: Winners of the CF competitions do not principally train with CF techniques - they primarily strength train and work on CF games-specific conditioning.
If they are working on CF games-specific conditioning, wouldn't that be CrossFit techniques? I mean, all the stuff they do in the games is stuff I see in the classes. In any case, they have an established base in CF techniques.
The strength portion of the CF games require strength, which doing the WODs will not give as the WODs are essentially randomized exercise lists.
Every CrossFit gym I have attended routinely allots class time specifically towards strength training as a separate activity from any WOD. It is part of the CrossFit programming.
1
Categories
- All Categories
- 1.4M Health, Wellness and Goals
- 391.5K Introduce Yourself
- 43.5K Getting Started
- 259.7K Health and Weight Loss
- 175.6K Food and Nutrition
- 47.3K Recipes
- 232.3K Fitness and Exercise
- 391 Sleep, Mindfulness and Overall Wellness
- 6.4K Goal: Maintaining Weight
- 8.5K Goal: Gaining Weight and Body Building
- 152.7K Motivation and Support
- 7.8K Challenges
- 1.3K Debate Club
- 96.3K Chit-Chat
- 2.5K Fun and Games
- 3.2K MyFitnessPal Information
- 22 News and Announcements
- 926 Feature Suggestions and Ideas
- 2.3K MyFitnessPal Tech Support Questions