GOT: Why do people hate Sansa?

rml_16

So, I posted this in the GOT group, but I guess since it's between seasons, the group isn't very active and I REALLY want more answers, so I'm reposting here:

A while ago, I read a blog that mentioned people really hate Sansa. At the time, I was only part-way through book one and season 2, but I couldn't think of a reason to dislike her as a character, so I asked a friend who has read all the books and seen all three seasons.

She told me that people don't like Sansa for two reasons:

1. Sansa continues to be enthralled by the idea of gallant knights and princes, etc., even after Joffrey turns out to be a toad and kind of implied that in the books, Sansa continues being in love with him even after he kills Ned Stark.

2. Because Sansa never shows concern for Aya.

Well, now I'm halfway through book 2 and Sansa twice has thought about Arya, and assumed Arya got out of King's Landing (she did) and is back safe at Winterfell. Considering that Sansa is 11 when the series begins, this seems like a normal assumption she would have, especially since she would have no idea what kind of dangers Arya would be facing because Sansa has led a sheltered like. She also realizes that they probably lied to her about Jeyne Poole and that Jeyne very well might not be in a good place after all. And she's genuinely concerned and saddened about that.

And she most certainly realizes Joffrey is a creep, as well as several of his knights immediately when he had Ned killed. She hates Joffrey. Yes, she still thinks about the stories she's heard about gallantry, but her own father and brothers and the people surrounding her growing up would have shown her some of them are that way, plus The Hound in his way is very kind to her.

And, again, she's 11 years old.

So, someone PLEASE give me a reason to not like Sansa! She isn't my favorite character, but I don't dislike her and see no reason to. (Spoilers are OK. I spoil this kind of thing for myself all the time.)

teagirlmedium

What book/ T.V. series is this? It sounds interesting.

rml_16

What book/ T.V. series is this? It sounds interesting.

Game of Thrones is the series and the first book in the A Song of Ice and Fire series.

LePetitCochon

Snotty brat! I stand by my earlier post!

rml_16

Snotty brat! I stand by my earlier post!

lol

I totally appreciate it, too. But I just don't see that after Ned dies. And I can't forget she's only 11!

firstsip

IMO, the only characters worth truly hating are the absolutely one-dimensional Joffrey and Ramsey, and I believe GRRM said those are his only truly "evil" characters.

So, for that, I say... "hate" is a strong word to be applied to Sansa.

I am ambivalent towards her. I neither hate nor love her, but I find her POVs interesting. I don't fault people for ever "dreading" a POV and thus finding dislike in the character. I personally find Davos POVs to be less than thrilling, and found myself "disliking" him before I caught myself (let's be real: how can you hate Davos? He is the Good-Guy Greg of Westeros).

I've seen the two points you brought up as being the main things of Sansa: ill-feelings towards family members who are generally liked almost universally (Arya and Jon) and a preoccupation with "fantasy."

To them, I say... try and look a bit deeper than the service. Sansa goes through rather traumatic experiences (are we spoiler-free here? I'm used to ASOIAF reddits with spoiler rules and tags) at a very young, impressionable age. GRRM has hinted at "controversy" coming for her, which many believe to be revelations of things Sansa's suppressed (which is believable, based on many "almost happened" events she goes through). Her lingering focus on "wanting to be saved" and "heroes and knights" seems a protective defense mechanism. She's not her sister--can she really be faulted for reacting in a different way to traumatic experiences?

As for the "dislike of her family"... uh, she's flat out openly yearning for Jon by ADWD and regretting her juvenile treatment of Arya. Can ANYONE be faulted for how they acted to siblings when they were 11-13 and of super different personalities?

BikerGirlElaine

Keep reading.

For me, Sansa is kind of dull-witted and I hate that she sees herself as so helpless. But you're right, the characters are complex, rarely completely good or evil.

rml_16

Keep reading.

For me, Sansa is kind of dull-witted and I hate that she sees herself as so helpless. But you're right, the characters are complex, rarely completely good or evil.

I just can't judge her harshly. I can't help thinking about the fact she's 11, alone and surrounded by vipers. But I will keep reading and see if that changes. It's just that the two reasons given turned out to not actually be accurate at all.


FirstSip:
I don't think I've gotten to Ramsey yet. I'd say The Mountain is pretty much evil. I've read some spoilers on him on the Wiki and see nothing redeeming about him at all. And of course, Joffrey. The rest are either super good (the Starks, except Catelyn, for example) or just super complex and I can't figure out if I love or hate some of them!

And I'd bet Sansa's attitude toward Jon was mostly her mother's influence.

Nightterror218

IMO she acts helpless, she blames everyone for her problems, she thinks of herself over her family, its all about her. She is a brat who throws family under the bus. I dont care if she is 11 or not. She obsessive over being rich and married to powerful husband.

I think the is going threw traumatic stuff but she does not change her mindset much. She wants to be a queen and that seems to be all that matters.

rml_16

IMO she acts helpless, she blames everyone for her problems, she thinks of herself over her family, its all about her. She is a brat who throws family under the bus. I dont care if she is 11 or not. She obsessive over being rich and married to powerful husband.

I think the is going threw traumatic stuff but she does not change her mindset much. She wants to be a queen and that seems to be all that matters.

Right, I see that in the beginning when everything is happy. But after Joffrey chops off her father's head, her attitude changes dramatically.

firstsip

Keep reading.

For me, Sansa is kind of dull-witted and I hate that she sees herself as so helpless. But you're right, the characters are complex, rarely completely good or evil.

I just can't judge her harshly. I can't help thinking about the fact she's 11, alone and surrounded by vipers. But I will keep reading and see if that changes. It's just that the two reasons given turned out to not actually be accurate at all.


FirstSip:
I don't think I've gotten to Ramsey yet. I'd say The Mountain is pretty much evil. I've read some spoilers on him on the Wiki and see nothing redeeming about him at all. And of course, Joffrey. The rest are either super good (the Starks, except Catelyn, for example) or just super complex and I can't figure out if I love or hate some of them!

And I'd bet Sansa's attitude toward Jon was mostly her mother's influence.

I'd definitely agree about the initial Sansa/Jon dynamic being directly based on Catelyn/Jon's, for sure.

I'd lump The Mountain as justifiably hateable in there, too... I guess he's, er... not as intelligent as Joffrey/Ramsey, so he's even more of a "wooden" character to me. (Glad no one's brought Cersei up yet... I could write forever on her).

As for everything else... I'm just going to... not say anything. :X

rml_16

(Glad no one's brought Cersei up yet... I could write forever on her).

I want to hate her, but Martin puts just that touch of humanity and sympathy into her. Just enough.

Same with Theon. Just that touch, though he's less likeable in the books so far than in the show. Credit to the acting on that one!

quirkytizzy

Leaving my reply and then staying out cuz spoilers but:

I actually hated her but after Season 2, feel so very, very sorry for her. She is a battered woman. She is a trapped woman. I thought I would hate her forever. But now I'm cheering for her to gtfo and maybe poison Joffery.

I don't get why people hate her, either - but I haven't read the books yet and I haven't seen Season 3. So maybe they know something I don't.

Gwyn1969

If you've read all the books, you might suspect that Sansa is being positioned to become a major player. Her character is developing in an interesting way.

Nightterror218

IMO she acts helpless, she blames everyone for her problems, she thinks of herself over her family, its all about her. She is a brat who throws family under the bus. I dont care if she is 11 or not. She obsessive over being rich and married to powerful husband.

I think the is going threw traumatic stuff but she does not change her mindset much. She wants to be a queen and that seems to be all that matters.

Right, I see that in the beginning when everything is happy. But after Joffrey chops off her father's head, her attitude changes dramatically.

Not really. She thinks her dad and sister are traitors, she think the queen will look after her since the queen has always been nice. She still wants to marry joffery even after the way her treats her. She still talks bad about family.

rml_16

IMO she acts helpless, she blames everyone for her problems, she thinks of herself over her family, its all about her. She is a brat who throws family under the bus. I dont care if she is 11 or not. She obsessive over being rich and married to powerful husband.

I think the is going threw traumatic stuff but she does not change her mindset much. She wants to be a queen and that seems to be all that matters.

Right, I see that in the beginning when everything is happy. But after Joffrey chops off her father's head, her attitude changes dramatically.

Not really. She thinks her dad and sister are traitors, she think the queen will look after her since the queen has always been nice. She still wants to marry joffery even after the way her treats her. She still talks bad about family.

She specifically tells Joffrey she hates him and doesn't want to marry him and she tells him she hopes her brother gives her Joffrey's head for a present.

Does she suddenly change her mind about those things at some point? I guess that's what I'm asking in my OP. Because after Ned dies, she does a 180. Does she do another 180 back to where she started?

And when she writes the letters and everything, she's trying to save her father's life.

firstsip

IMO she acts helpless, she blames everyone for her problems, she thinks of herself over her family, its all about her. She is a brat who throws family under the bus. I dont care if she is 11 or not. She obsessive over being rich and married to powerful husband.

I think the is going threw traumatic stuff but she does not change her mindset much. She wants to be a queen and that seems to be all that matters.

Right, I see that in the beginning when everything is happy. But after Joffrey chops off her father's head, her attitude changes dramatically.

Not really. She thinks her dad and sister are traitors, she think the queen will look after her since the queen has always been nice. She still wants to marry joffery even after the way her treats her. She still talks bad about family.

What? Her internal tune changes immediately--surely you're not going off of the "surface" stuff (which, her external performance versus internal feelings becomes a rather large part of her character in AFFC and ADWD)? I think the show's done a decent job of conveying what I thought was very clear (but maybe not, if you're taking it quite literally) a pretty deep hatred of Joffrey and distrust of the court in general (like Cersei) post-Ned.

Again, I'm not sure if you're a book or show follower primarily, and then, where you are... because even in early third season/ASOS, there's no disputing certain things about Sansa's character.

ahviendha

If you've read all the books, you might suspect that Sansa is being positioned to become a major player. Her character is developing in an interesting way.

i definitely see this happening. there were some lines of text from Tyrions POV in a SoS which really made me think she's gonna be a big player, he says something like "she plays this game so well, a short greeting of care to xyz, inquiring to the health of xyz, gracefully sweeping from one to the other with no outward displays of her inner turmoil" or something like that.

she's growing up my little bird! such a stupid girl finally realizing what life's all about. sex and power!

edit : also i think in the TV show, she's easier to dislike. you don't get inside her head. when you read her POV you understand her more, her naivete. i disliked her as well till i began reading the books. but now, like others, i am cheering her on!

obeseandsassy

I don't get the hate.

She's completely on her own, literally completely surrounded by enemies, every time she thinks she makes a friend she ends up being wrong, every time she thinks she's going to be getting a break, it ends up ruined. She's doing the best she can just to keep her head above water and survive. She's super young, so at first when people are nice to her (example, Cersei) she believes their intentions are true. After Joffrey tells her that he'll show her father mercy and then chops his head off in front of her, that was the end of any sort of innocence for her. But she still has to play the game and make nice with people she'd rather not associate with, because to everyone at King's Landing, all she is is a traiter's daughter and a pawn, a bargaining chip. She has to do what she has to do literally just to stay alive. But she's learning how to play the game, and I'm looking forward to seeing where it takes her character.

You try being 11 and dealing with the kind of court politics that are in these books!

rml_16

What? Her internal tune changes immediately--surely you're not going off of the "surface" stuff (which, her external performance versus internal feelings becomes a rather large part of her character in AFFC and ADWD)? I think the show's done a decent job of conveying what I thought was very clear (but maybe not, if you're taking it quite literally) a pretty deep hatred of Joffrey and distrust of the court in general (like Cersei) post-Ned.

Again, I'm not sure if you're a book or show follower primarily, and then, where you are... because even in early third season/ASOS, there's no disputing certain things about Sansa's character.

Even on the show, she's pretty clear about her feelings. To the Lannisters' faces, she talks about loving him, but at least Tyrion knows she's FOS and just trying to survive.

I watched episodes 9 and 10 of season 2 lsat week and started A Clash of Kings on Saturday, so I mostly had the show to go on and it was clear she hated him. Just watching her on the sept when Joffrey orders Ned's death was enough to see her 'tude was changed.

obrientp

I can't make up my mind about Sansa. I want to like her, but I'm having trouble doing it. I wish she had been nicer to the Hound, though. He protected her multiple times, and she quaked and quivered in his presence--in the books, at least.

rml_16

I can't make up my mind about Sansa. I want to like her, but I'm having trouble doing it. I wish she had been nicer to the Hound, though. He protected her multiple times, and she quaked and quivered in his presence--in the books, at least.

Well, while he helps her, he's also pretty scary! I mean, he threatens to kill her and stuff. Clearly, he's in love with her, but I can understand her wariness and at her age, she probably isn't picking up on that.

Nightterror218

IMO she acts helpless, she blames everyone for her problems, she thinks of herself over her family, its all about her. She is a brat who throws family under the bus. I dont care if she is 11 or not. She obsessive over being rich and married to powerful husband.

I think the is going threw traumatic stuff but she does not change her mindset much. She wants to be a queen and that seems to be all that matters.

Right, I see that in the beginning when everything is happy. But after Joffrey chops off her father's head, her attitude changes dramatically.

Not really. She thinks her dad and sister are traitors, she think the queen will look after her since the queen has always been nice. She still wants to marry joffery even after the way her treats her. She still talks bad about family.

She specifically tells Joffrey she hates him and doesn't want to marry him and she tells him she hopes her brother gives her Joffrey's head for a present.

Does she suddenly change her mind about those things at some point? I guess that's what I'm asking in my OP. Because after Ned dies, she does a 180. Does she do another 180 back to where she started?

And when she writes the letters and everything, she's trying to save her father's life.

In the book i do not see a 180. I see her believe the Lannisters and she does say what she needs to survive. I am 3/4 the way through book 2 right now. She is just now deciding she was to get away and no marry joffery. But until not too long ago she still wanted to marry him thinking he would change once they were married. Very naive.

BrieLP

Oh, I was like WTF? :huh:

But I've never seen it, nor read the books so I couldn't tell ya. Sorry!:ohwell:

thesupremeforce

Sansa is REALLY annoying initially, and that first (and second and third and ninth) impression is difficult to shake. She definitely gets vastly better, but I understand why people have trouble getting over her early behavior.

MissMaryMac33

Have not read the books --- but watched all 3 seasons. l love Sansa -- but Daenerys is definitely my girl crush!

saschka7

Oh. I guess I shouldn't read so fast or trust my eyesight.

I thought this was about people who hate Santa. I suppose the fact that it's July should have tipped me off.:laugh:

rml_16

In the book i do not see a 180. I see her believe the Lannisters and she does say what she needs to survive. I am 3/4 the way through book 2 right now. She is just now deciding she was to get away and no marry joffery. But until not too long ago she still wanted to marry him thinking he would change once they were married. Very naive.

What are you reading? She wants to not marry Joffrey immediately after he kills her father. That gets established in book 1.

spectralmoon

I don't hate her, but I don't like her. She doesn't seem appreciative for the things that come her way, like being RESCUED by The Hound or

.

If anything, she just makes me fling my hands up and go, "WTF SANSA?!" a lot. Books and show.

rml_16

Sansa is REALLY annoying initially, and that first (and second and third and ninth) impression is difficult to shake. She definitely gets vastly better, but I understand why people have trouble getting over her early behavior.

If she were older or hadn't led such a sheltered life, I would have disliked her from the beginning. But I excuse a lot because of her age.

Frank_Just_Frank

Sansa might be an interesting character later on but at the moment she's a useless ditz who does nothing interesting. That may change though, in book 5 she gets in some interesting situations and she seems to be growing up in the world.