Calories/Clean Eating/Undereating
Replies
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My diet consists of mostly what people would generally consider "clean" foods, such as fresh meats, vegetables, fruit, fish, yogurt, cheese, and milk. That said, the various definitions of clean eating tell me nothing about how much of each food I should eat, how often, etc. and can lead to declining to eat perfectly healthy foods. In addition, some definitions would strike off some of the above foods. For example, are any of the following clean foods to you (i.e. minimally processed): pre-mixed Greek yogurt such as chocolate or red velvet cake, whey protein powder, protein bars, dried pasta, jarred tomato sauce, store bought bread, high fiber tortillas, creatine monohydrate, coffee, coffee creamer, Breyer's ice cream, frozen vegetables, beef jerky, cheese, pre-packaged salads, beer, liquor, wine, regular jarred peanut butter, jarred jams and preserves, sugar, maple syrup, pancake mix, non-organic 1% milk, or chocolate bars? Each one of these items play a role in my diet and most of them serve a very positive role. The others serve a positive role in my enjoyment of eating. Moderation, macro- and micro-nutrients, and calories drive my diet rather than the concept of "clean eating."
None of this is not to say that using clean eating guidelines can't help someone in general terms in the beginning or even in conjunction with IIFYM, but it isn't the best tool in the toolbox, or even a very good tool when compared to something like attention to the details that matter. IIFYM also gets a very bad reputation on here because of the way it's often misrepresented and misinterpretted. It's not an eat junk diet because the macronutrient requirements bar that, and it also generally uses an 80/20 rule or 90/10 rule regarding eating mostly what people would refer to as clean foods. That's where I think the concept of clean eating is of some limited use, though I've been mostly eating that way since I was a young child when we simply referred to it as fresh food.3 -
While it's not like I didn't eat anything nutritious, for a period of time during part of my teen years I had a lot of meals (especially lunches) that were nutritionally poor. At the time did I think there was anything wrong with that? I'm pretty sure the answer is "no". Deep down I should have known that I shouldn't have been eating that way, but I certainly didn't care, that's for sure. IRRC one day during that time family members were telling me I wasn't eating enough protein, and I questioned the role of protein in building muscle. So yes I would say I was at least somewhat ignorant of what a sound diet should have been like, but I find it hard to believe I was a special snowflake in that regard. It's true that as a young kid I was taught and raised on a better diet, but as I got a little more independent for my meals that knowledge and advice went out the picture.lemurcat12 wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »I get the math of calories in vs calories out, but I'm somewhat confused regarding minimum calorie intake and the hate on clean eating VS the eat whatever you want, as long as it's within your calories mindset.
How is 1200 calories of ice cream, fast food, and alcohol better for you than 1000 calories of tuna, eggs, and veggies? The general reasoning behind consuming no less than 1200 calories (or 1500 for men) is that you won't get enough nutrients. However, I honestly believe you'd actually get better nutrition and be healthier on a diet that consisted of clean eating but less calories.
Disclaimers: I am not advocating a super low calorie diet, just asking a question. Also, I do acknowledge that "clean eating" doesn't have a clear definition. Operate with the understanding that, to me, clean eating = minimally processed, lots of fresh vegetables, pronouncable ingredients.
People have a hate because of statements like "How is 1200 calories of ice cream, fast food, and alcohol better for you than 1000 calories of tuna, eggs, and veggies?"
Do you SERIOUSLY *PUPPY* BELIEVE that even a single person on this forum does that?
i am still waiting for this mythical person that advocates for a diet of 100% ice cream and pop tarts to show themselves...lemurcat12 wrote: »I also don't think many people eat only ice cream, fast food, and alcohol, no matter the calories, and have not seen anyone here recommend or approve such a choice, so that's a straw man.
While I don't think anyone here is suggesting that one should do that, the problem IMO is that in general a lot of people simply don't have much knowledge or regard for general nutrition.
Oh, I think anyone not totally stupid knows perfectly well what a good diet is and is not. If someone chooses to eat only ice cream (which no one does), it's not because they are confused about whether or not that's a sensible diet. It's because they don't care.
You seem to like to imagine that others are idiots when it comes to knowing the most basic things and then to demand that all advice be aimed at this hypothetical lowest common denominator. I prefer to assume that others have at least a minimally adequate level of knowledge and intelligence, because to talk to someone as if he or she did not is, IMO, rude and insulting.
Now I'm not suggesting that the proper way to respond to new people here is to assume that they know nothing, but I guess it can be tricky assessing what people do know.
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ForecasterJason wrote: »
While it's not like I didn't eat anything nutritious, for a period of time during part of my teen years I had a lot of meals (especially lunches) that were nutritionally poor. At the time did I think there was anything wrong with that? I'm pretty sure the answer is "no". Deep down I should have known that I shouldn't have been eating that way, but I certainly didn't care, that's for sure. IRRC one day during that time family members were telling me I wasn't eating enough protein, and I questioned the role of protein in building muscle. So yes I would say I was at least somewhat ignorant of what a sound diet should have been like, but I find it hard to believe I was a special snowflake in that regard. It's true that as a young kid I was taught and raised on a better diet, but as I got a little more independent for my meals that knowledge and advice went out the picture.lemurcat12 wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »I get the math of calories in vs calories out, but I'm somewhat confused regarding minimum calorie intake and the hate on clean eating VS the eat whatever you want, as long as it's within your calories mindset.
How is 1200 calories of ice cream, fast food, and alcohol better for you than 1000 calories of tuna, eggs, and veggies? The general reasoning behind consuming no less than 1200 calories (or 1500 for men) is that you won't get enough nutrients. However, I honestly believe you'd actually get better nutrition and be healthier on a diet that consisted of clean eating but less calories.
Disclaimers: I am not advocating a super low calorie diet, just asking a question. Also, I do acknowledge that "clean eating" doesn't have a clear definition. Operate with the understanding that, to me, clean eating = minimally processed, lots of fresh vegetables, pronouncable ingredients.
People have a hate because of statements like "How is 1200 calories of ice cream, fast food, and alcohol better for you than 1000 calories of tuna, eggs, and veggies?"
Do you SERIOUSLY *PUPPY* BELIEVE that even a single person on this forum does that?
i am still waiting for this mythical person that advocates for a diet of 100% ice cream and pop tarts to show themselves...lemurcat12 wrote: »I also don't think many people eat only ice cream, fast food, and alcohol, no matter the calories, and have not seen anyone here recommend or approve such a choice, so that's a straw man.
While I don't think anyone here is suggesting that one should do that, the problem IMO is that in general a lot of people simply don't have much knowledge or regard for general nutrition.
Oh, I think anyone not totally stupid knows perfectly well what a good diet is and is not. If someone chooses to eat only ice cream (which no one does), it's not because they are confused about whether or not that's a sensible diet. It's because they don't care.
You seem to like to imagine that others are idiots when it comes to knowing the most basic things and then to demand that all advice be aimed at this hypothetical lowest common denominator. I prefer to assume that others have at least a minimally adequate level of knowledge and intelligence, because to talk to someone as if he or she did not is, IMO, rude and insulting.
Now I'm not suggesting that the proper way to respond to new people here is to assume that they know nothing, but I guess it can be tricky assessing what people do know.
that is great for you; however, it does not give you liberty to then assume that every other person lacks the proper understanding of basic nutrition.6 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »I get the math of calories in vs calories out, but I'm somewhat confused regarding minimum calorie intake and the hate on clean eating VS the eat whatever you want, as long as it's within your calories mindset.
How is 1200 calories of ice cream, fast food, and alcohol better for you than 1000 calories of tuna, eggs, and veggies? The general reasoning behind consuming no less than 1200 calories (or 1500 for men) is that you won't get enough nutrients. However, I honestly believe you'd actually get better nutrition and be healthier on a diet that consisted of clean eating but less calories.
Disclaimers: I am not advocating a super low calorie diet, just asking a question. Also, I do acknowledge that "clean eating" doesn't have a clear definition. Operate with the understanding that, to me, clean eating = minimally processed, lots of fresh vegetables, pronouncable ingredients.
People have a hate because of statements like "How is 1200 calories of ice cream, fast food, and alcohol better for you than 1000 calories of tuna, eggs, and veggies?"
Do you SERIOUSLY *PUPPY* BELIEVE that even a single person on this forum does that?
i am still waiting for this mythical person that advocates for a diet of 100% ice cream and pop tarts to show themselves...lemurcat12 wrote: »I also don't think many people eat only ice cream, fast food, and alcohol, no matter the calories, and have not seen anyone here recommend or approve such a choice, so that's a straw man.
While I don't think anyone here is suggesting that one should do that, the problem IMO is that in general a lot of people simply don't have much knowledge or regard for general nutrition.
Oh, I think anyone not totally stupid knows perfectly well what a good diet is and is not. If someone chooses to eat only ice cream (which no one does), it's not because they are confused about whether or not that's a sensible diet. It's because they don't care.
I don't think this is true. I probably would have before I joined this site but I have seen post after post where people say they thought (or think) they had to eat "healthy foods" to have a healthy diet. How many posts are there telling us not to eat <something>? How many asking "What can I eat"?
I think a good many people don't know what a good diet is and I doubt they are all totally stupid.5 -
Need2Exerc1se wrote: »I don't think this is true. I probably would have before I joined this site but I have seen post after post where people say they thought (or think) they had to eat "healthy foods" to have a healthy diet. How many posts are there telling us not to eat <something>? How many asking "What can I eat"?
I think a good many people don't know what a good diet is and I doubt they are all totally stupid.
I think this is the heart of the matter. For years we've been bombarded with seemingly contradictory and often downright false information, much of it from the diet industry, and there's widespread confusion (particularly among Americans, I think) about what constitutes a healthy diet. As children we're told "clean your plate, because starving children in Africa/India/Westeros." We're told to control our portion sizes but many don't understand what constitutes a portion. Watch your fats--no, avoid sugar--no, it's CARBS that are the enemy, etc. Worst of all, so many people are conditioned to think of food in terms of "good for you" and "bad for you" and if you enjoy some of that "bad for you" stuff then you are weak, a loser, and morally lacking.
I think this is where some of the "eat anything you want, just less of it" pushback comes from. Nobody's rejecting healthy, less-processed food with high nutritional value. I think it's more a rejection of the concept that you must stick to a diet of only certain foods to lose weight.
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Need2Exerc1se wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »I get the math of calories in vs calories out, but I'm somewhat confused regarding minimum calorie intake and the hate on clean eating VS the eat whatever you want, as long as it's within your calories mindset.
How is 1200 calories of ice cream, fast food, and alcohol better for you than 1000 calories of tuna, eggs, and veggies? The general reasoning behind consuming no less than 1200 calories (or 1500 for men) is that you won't get enough nutrients. However, I honestly believe you'd actually get better nutrition and be healthier on a diet that consisted of clean eating but less calories.
Disclaimers: I am not advocating a super low calorie diet, just asking a question. Also, I do acknowledge that "clean eating" doesn't have a clear definition. Operate with the understanding that, to me, clean eating = minimally processed, lots of fresh vegetables, pronouncable ingredients.
People have a hate because of statements like "How is 1200 calories of ice cream, fast food, and alcohol better for you than 1000 calories of tuna, eggs, and veggies?"
Do you SERIOUSLY *PUPPY* BELIEVE that even a single person on this forum does that?
i am still waiting for this mythical person that advocates for a diet of 100% ice cream and pop tarts to show themselves...lemurcat12 wrote: »I also don't think many people eat only ice cream, fast food, and alcohol, no matter the calories, and have not seen anyone here recommend or approve such a choice, so that's a straw man.
While I don't think anyone here is suggesting that one should do that, the problem IMO is that in general a lot of people simply don't have much knowledge or regard for general nutrition.
Oh, I think anyone not totally stupid knows perfectly well what a good diet is and is not. If someone chooses to eat only ice cream (which no one does), it's not because they are confused about whether or not that's a sensible diet. It's because they don't care.
I don't think this is true. I probably would have before I joined this site but I have seen post after post where people say they thought (or think) they had to eat "healthy foods" to have a healthy diet. How many posts are there telling us not to eat <something>? How many asking "What can I eat"?
I think a good many people don't know what a good diet is and I doubt they are all totally stupid.
I think if they bothered to think about it, they'd know better. I don't mean something like not knowing optimum protein, but things like eat a balanced diet with protein and vegetables, don't base your diet around sweets and soda, ideally go for choices with more fiber vs. less when it comes to grains (but it's fine to eat some refined grains too and get your fiber elsewhere). That's the kind of basic, even a 5-year old could tell you better, stuff that Jason would have us believe people are too stupid to figure out on their own.
If someone eats only sweets (I have yet to see this myself) or no vegetables or the like, they know they aren't eating a good diet. It's just that often people don't care.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »I get the math of calories in vs calories out, but I'm somewhat confused regarding minimum calorie intake and the hate on clean eating VS the eat whatever you want, as long as it's within your calories mindset.
How is 1200 calories of ice cream, fast food, and alcohol better for you than 1000 calories of tuna, eggs, and veggies? The general reasoning behind consuming no less than 1200 calories (or 1500 for men) is that you won't get enough nutrients. However, I honestly believe you'd actually get better nutrition and be healthier on a diet that consisted of clean eating but less calories.
Disclaimers: I am not advocating a super low calorie diet, just asking a question. Also, I do acknowledge that "clean eating" doesn't have a clear definition. Operate with the understanding that, to me, clean eating = minimally processed, lots of fresh vegetables, pronouncable ingredients.
People have a hate because of statements like "How is 1200 calories of ice cream, fast food, and alcohol better for you than 1000 calories of tuna, eggs, and veggies?"
Do you SERIOUSLY *PUPPY* BELIEVE that even a single person on this forum does that?
i am still waiting for this mythical person that advocates for a diet of 100% ice cream and pop tarts to show themselves...lemurcat12 wrote: »I also don't think many people eat only ice cream, fast food, and alcohol, no matter the calories, and have not seen anyone here recommend or approve such a choice, so that's a straw man.
While I don't think anyone here is suggesting that one should do that, the problem IMO is that in general a lot of people simply don't have much knowledge or regard for general nutrition.
Oh, I think anyone not totally stupid knows perfectly well what a good diet is and is not. If someone chooses to eat only ice cream (which no one does), it's not because they are confused about whether or not that's a sensible diet. It's because they don't care.
I don't think this is true. I probably would have before I joined this site but I have seen post after post where people say they thought (or think) they had to eat "healthy foods" to have a healthy diet. How many posts are there telling us not to eat <something>? How many asking "What can I eat"?
I think a good many people don't know what a good diet is and I doubt they are all totally stupid.
I think if they bothered to think about it, they'd know better. I don't mean something like not knowing optimum protein, but things like eat a balanced diet with protein and vegetables, don't base your diet around sweets and soda, ideally go for choices with more fiber vs. less when it comes to grains (but it's fine to eat some refined grains too and get your fiber elsewhere). That's the kind of basic, even a 5-year old could tell you better, stuff that Jason would have us believe people are too stupid to figure out on their own.
If someone eats only sweets (I have yet to see this myself) or no vegetables or the like, they know they aren't eating a good diet. It's just that often people don't care.
I'm not sure who Jason is or what he wants, but I still don't think it's true that only stupid people don't know what a good diet is. I think a shocking number of people think (or thought) things like ice cream or cookies or fast food or pizza can't be part of a good diet.
I do agree that few people eat only sweats, though I do several people IRL who get the majority of their meals from a drive thru and some who flat out refuse to eat most vegetables other than French fries. Oddly most of those will eat a few green beans.0 -
I know I've been guilty of using the term "clean eating," but that was because I was unaware that there have been many instances of others using it and being arrogant and condescending on this site. I now like to refer to it as a balanced diet. I try to eat by paying attention to protein, carbs, and fat, but until I started counting calories, guess what, I wasn't losing anything. I don't know if there is a right way to answer this question, but I'll try. You can lose on 1000 calories of healthy eating or you can lose on 1200 of what others consider unhealthy eating. I don't recommend eating only 1000 calories because your body needs the fuel, but I DO believe in maintaining a balanced diet. Wouldn't it be far easier to go against both extremes and just eat what calories you are allotted yet keep in mind that balance? I can eat stay within my calorie goal by eating a good diet and splurging on some ice cream when I'm able.1
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alyssa_rest wrote: »I know I've been guilty of using the term "clean eating," but that was because I was unaware that there have been many instances of others using it and being arrogant and condescending on this site. I now like to refer to it as a balanced diet. I try to eat by paying attention to protein, carbs, and fat, but until I started counting calories, guess what, I wasn't losing anything. I don't know if there is a right way to answer this question, but I'll try. You can lose on 1000 calories of healthy eating or you can lose on 1200 of what others consider unhealthy eating. I don't recommend eating only 1000 calories because your body needs the fuel, but I DO believe in maintaining a balanced diet. Wouldn't it be far easier to go against both extremes and just eat what calories you are allotted yet keep in mind that balance? I can eat stay within my calorie goal by eating a good diet and splurging on some ice cream when I'm able.
the funny part is no one is advocating the other side of the extreme, which is this mythical diet of 100% pop tarts and ice cream ...1 -
She was referring to me.Need2Exerc1se wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »I get the math of calories in vs calories out, but I'm somewhat confused regarding minimum calorie intake and the hate on clean eating VS the eat whatever you want, as long as it's within your calories mindset.
How is 1200 calories of ice cream, fast food, and alcohol better for you than 1000 calories of tuna, eggs, and veggies? The general reasoning behind consuming no less than 1200 calories (or 1500 for men) is that you won't get enough nutrients. However, I honestly believe you'd actually get better nutrition and be healthier on a diet that consisted of clean eating but less calories.
Disclaimers: I am not advocating a super low calorie diet, just asking a question. Also, I do acknowledge that "clean eating" doesn't have a clear definition. Operate with the understanding that, to me, clean eating = minimally processed, lots of fresh vegetables, pronouncable ingredients.
People have a hate because of statements like "How is 1200 calories of ice cream, fast food, and alcohol better for you than 1000 calories of tuna, eggs, and veggies?"
Do you SERIOUSLY *PUPPY* BELIEVE that even a single person on this forum does that?
i am still waiting for this mythical person that advocates for a diet of 100% ice cream and pop tarts to show themselves...lemurcat12 wrote: »I also don't think many people eat only ice cream, fast food, and alcohol, no matter the calories, and have not seen anyone here recommend or approve such a choice, so that's a straw man.
While I don't think anyone here is suggesting that one should do that, the problem IMO is that in general a lot of people simply don't have much knowledge or regard for general nutrition.
Oh, I think anyone not totally stupid knows perfectly well what a good diet is and is not. If someone chooses to eat only ice cream (which no one does), it's not because they are confused about whether or not that's a sensible diet. It's because they don't care.
I don't think this is true. I probably would have before I joined this site but I have seen post after post where people say they thought (or think) they had to eat "healthy foods" to have a healthy diet. How many posts are there telling us not to eat <something>? How many asking "What can I eat"?
I think a good many people don't know what a good diet is and I doubt they are all totally stupid.
I think if they bothered to think about it, they'd know better. I don't mean something like not knowing optimum protein, but things like eat a balanced diet with protein and vegetables, don't base your diet around sweets and soda, ideally go for choices with more fiber vs. less when it comes to grains (but it's fine to eat some refined grains too and get your fiber elsewhere). That's the kind of basic, even a 5-year old could tell you better, stuff that Jason would have us believe people are too stupid to figure out on their own.
If someone eats only sweets (I have yet to see this myself) or no vegetables or the like, they know they aren't eating a good diet. It's just that often people don't care.
I'm not sure who Jason is or what he wants, but I still don't think it's true that only stupid people don't know what a good diet is. I think a shocking number of people think (or thought) things like ice cream or cookies or fast food or pizza can't be part of a good diet.
I do agree that few people eat only sweats, though I do several people IRL who get the majority of their meals from a drive thru and some who flat out refuse to eat most vegetables other than French fries. Oddly most of those will eat a few green beans.
I don't doubt that there's a lot of people out there eating a diet based around highly processed, low nutrient rich foods.
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ForecasterJason wrote: »
She was referring to me.Need2Exerc1se wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »I get the math of calories in vs calories out, but I'm somewhat confused regarding minimum calorie intake and the hate on clean eating VS the eat whatever you want, as long as it's within your calories mindset.
How is 1200 calories of ice cream, fast food, and alcohol better for you than 1000 calories of tuna, eggs, and veggies? The general reasoning behind consuming no less than 1200 calories (or 1500 for men) is that you won't get enough nutrients. However, I honestly believe you'd actually get better nutrition and be healthier on a diet that consisted of clean eating but less calories.
Disclaimers: I am not advocating a super low calorie diet, just asking a question. Also, I do acknowledge that "clean eating" doesn't have a clear definition. Operate with the understanding that, to me, clean eating = minimally processed, lots of fresh vegetables, pronouncable ingredients.
People have a hate because of statements like "How is 1200 calories of ice cream, fast food, and alcohol better for you than 1000 calories of tuna, eggs, and veggies?"
Do you SERIOUSLY *PUPPY* BELIEVE that even a single person on this forum does that?
i am still waiting for this mythical person that advocates for a diet of 100% ice cream and pop tarts to show themselves...lemurcat12 wrote: »I also don't think many people eat only ice cream, fast food, and alcohol, no matter the calories, and have not seen anyone here recommend or approve such a choice, so that's a straw man.
While I don't think anyone here is suggesting that one should do that, the problem IMO is that in general a lot of people simply don't have much knowledge or regard for general nutrition.
Oh, I think anyone not totally stupid knows perfectly well what a good diet is and is not. If someone chooses to eat only ice cream (which no one does), it's not because they are confused about whether or not that's a sensible diet. It's because they don't care.
I don't think this is true. I probably would have before I joined this site but I have seen post after post where people say they thought (or think) they had to eat "healthy foods" to have a healthy diet. How many posts are there telling us not to eat <something>? How many asking "What can I eat"?
I think a good many people don't know what a good diet is and I doubt they are all totally stupid.
I think if they bothered to think about it, they'd know better. I don't mean something like not knowing optimum protein, but things like eat a balanced diet with protein and vegetables, don't base your diet around sweets and soda, ideally go for choices with more fiber vs. less when it comes to grains (but it's fine to eat some refined grains too and get your fiber elsewhere). That's the kind of basic, even a 5-year old could tell you better, stuff that Jason would have us believe people are too stupid to figure out on their own.
If someone eats only sweets (I have yet to see this myself) or no vegetables or the like, they know they aren't eating a good diet. It's just that often people don't care.
I'm not sure who Jason is or what he wants, but I still don't think it's true that only stupid people don't know what a good diet is. I think a shocking number of people think (or thought) things like ice cream or cookies or fast food or pizza can't be part of a good diet.
I do agree that few people eat only sweats, though I do several people IRL who get the majority of their meals from a drive thru and some who flat out refuse to eat most vegetables other than French fries. Oddly most of those will eat a few green beans.
I don't doubt that there's a lot of people out there eating a diet based around highly processed, low nutrient rich foods.
But I don't think they do that because they don't know better. I think the average person knows the basics of a healthy diet - a variety of whole foods, plenty of produce, get more fiber, maybe eat some fish, don't eat too much fast food, don't eat nothing but candy and pop tarts. They just don't want to bother. They've been convinced it's difficult to eat right, and were easy to convince because "junk food" tastes good. They hear a nutritionist on the ten o'clock news commiserate about how hard it is to eat "healthy" so they use that as an excuse and stop trying.
I understand where you are coming from, my natural instinct is always to make excuses for people and try to find ways to take care of them! But I believe we do people a disservice by buying into the idea that they don't know better. They do, they just don't want to bother.
I ate mostly fast food, soda, candy, frozen processed food when I was a teen. I knew that wasn't "healthy" but I was broke and believed the myth that eating healthy was difficult and boring, plus I was young and believed I was invincible. I didn't need to educate myself on what was healthy, I needed to educate myself on how easy it was to incorporate a healthy way of eating into my life. Just my 2 cents :drinker:8 -
Yeah, I get what you're saying and I do think that makes sense.ForecasterJason wrote: »
She was referring to me.Need2Exerc1se wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »I get the math of calories in vs calories out, but I'm somewhat confused regarding minimum calorie intake and the hate on clean eating VS the eat whatever you want, as long as it's within your calories mindset.
How is 1200 calories of ice cream, fast food, and alcohol better for you than 1000 calories of tuna, eggs, and veggies? The general reasoning behind consuming no less than 1200 calories (or 1500 for men) is that you won't get enough nutrients. However, I honestly believe you'd actually get better nutrition and be healthier on a diet that consisted of clean eating but less calories.
Disclaimers: I am not advocating a super low calorie diet, just asking a question. Also, I do acknowledge that "clean eating" doesn't have a clear definition. Operate with the understanding that, to me, clean eating = minimally processed, lots of fresh vegetables, pronouncable ingredients.
People have a hate because of statements like "How is 1200 calories of ice cream, fast food, and alcohol better for you than 1000 calories of tuna, eggs, and veggies?"
Do you SERIOUSLY *PUPPY* BELIEVE that even a single person on this forum does that?
i am still waiting for this mythical person that advocates for a diet of 100% ice cream and pop tarts to show themselves...lemurcat12 wrote: »I also don't think many people eat only ice cream, fast food, and alcohol, no matter the calories, and have not seen anyone here recommend or approve such a choice, so that's a straw man.
While I don't think anyone here is suggesting that one should do that, the problem IMO is that in general a lot of people simply don't have much knowledge or regard for general nutrition.
Oh, I think anyone not totally stupid knows perfectly well what a good diet is and is not. If someone chooses to eat only ice cream (which no one does), it's not because they are confused about whether or not that's a sensible diet. It's because they don't care.
I don't think this is true. I probably would have before I joined this site but I have seen post after post where people say they thought (or think) they had to eat "healthy foods" to have a healthy diet. How many posts are there telling us not to eat <something>? How many asking "What can I eat"?
I think a good many people don't know what a good diet is and I doubt they are all totally stupid.
I think if they bothered to think about it, they'd know better. I don't mean something like not knowing optimum protein, but things like eat a balanced diet with protein and vegetables, don't base your diet around sweets and soda, ideally go for choices with more fiber vs. less when it comes to grains (but it's fine to eat some refined grains too and get your fiber elsewhere). That's the kind of basic, even a 5-year old could tell you better, stuff that Jason would have us believe people are too stupid to figure out on their own.
If someone eats only sweets (I have yet to see this myself) or no vegetables or the like, they know they aren't eating a good diet. It's just that often people don't care.
I'm not sure who Jason is or what he wants, but I still don't think it's true that only stupid people don't know what a good diet is. I think a shocking number of people think (or thought) things like ice cream or cookies or fast food or pizza can't be part of a good diet.
I do agree that few people eat only sweats, though I do several people IRL who get the majority of their meals from a drive thru and some who flat out refuse to eat most vegetables other than French fries. Oddly most of those will eat a few green beans.
I don't doubt that there's a lot of people out there eating a diet based around highly processed, low nutrient rich foods.
But I don't think they do that because they don't know better. I think the average person knows the basics of a healthy diet - a variety of whole foods, plenty of produce, get more fiber, maybe eat some fish, don't eat too much fast food, don't eat nothing but candy and pop tarts. They just don't want to bother. They've been convinced it's difficult to eat right, and were easy to convince because "junk food" tastes good. They hear a nutritionist on the ten o'clock news commiserate about how hard it is to eat "healthy" so they use that as an excuse and stop trying.
I understand where you are coming from, my natural instinct is always to make excuses for people and try to find ways to take care of them! But I believe we do people a disservice by buying into the idea that they don't know better. They do, they just don't want to bother.
I ate mostly fast food, soda, candy, frozen processed food when I was a teen. I knew that wasn't "healthy" but I was broke and believed the myth that eating healthy was difficult and boring, plus I was young and believed I was invincible. I didn't need to educate myself on what was healthy, I needed to educate myself on how easy it was to incorporate a healthy way of eating into my life. Just my 2 cents :drinker:
1 -
ForecasterJason wrote: »
She was referring to me.Need2Exerc1se wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »I get the math of calories in vs calories out, but I'm somewhat confused regarding minimum calorie intake and the hate on clean eating VS the eat whatever you want, as long as it's within your calories mindset.
How is 1200 calories of ice cream, fast food, and alcohol better for you than 1000 calories of tuna, eggs, and veggies? The general reasoning behind consuming no less than 1200 calories (or 1500 for men) is that you won't get enough nutrients. However, I honestly believe you'd actually get better nutrition and be healthier on a diet that consisted of clean eating but less calories.
Disclaimers: I am not advocating a super low calorie diet, just asking a question. Also, I do acknowledge that "clean eating" doesn't have a clear definition. Operate with the understanding that, to me, clean eating = minimally processed, lots of fresh vegetables, pronouncable ingredients.
People have a hate because of statements like "How is 1200 calories of ice cream, fast food, and alcohol better for you than 1000 calories of tuna, eggs, and veggies?"
Do you SERIOUSLY *PUPPY* BELIEVE that even a single person on this forum does that?
i am still waiting for this mythical person that advocates for a diet of 100% ice cream and pop tarts to show themselves...lemurcat12 wrote: »I also don't think many people eat only ice cream, fast food, and alcohol, no matter the calories, and have not seen anyone here recommend or approve such a choice, so that's a straw man.
While I don't think anyone here is suggesting that one should do that, the problem IMO is that in general a lot of people simply don't have much knowledge or regard for general nutrition.
Oh, I think anyone not totally stupid knows perfectly well what a good diet is and is not. If someone chooses to eat only ice cream (which no one does), it's not because they are confused about whether or not that's a sensible diet. It's because they don't care.
I don't think this is true. I probably would have before I joined this site but I have seen post after post where people say they thought (or think) they had to eat "healthy foods" to have a healthy diet. How many posts are there telling us not to eat <something>? How many asking "What can I eat"?
I think a good many people don't know what a good diet is and I doubt they are all totally stupid.
I think if they bothered to think about it, they'd know better. I don't mean something like not knowing optimum protein, but things like eat a balanced diet with protein and vegetables, don't base your diet around sweets and soda, ideally go for choices with more fiber vs. less when it comes to grains (but it's fine to eat some refined grains too and get your fiber elsewhere). That's the kind of basic, even a 5-year old could tell you better, stuff that Jason would have us believe people are too stupid to figure out on their own.
If someone eats only sweets (I have yet to see this myself) or no vegetables or the like, they know they aren't eating a good diet. It's just that often people don't care.
I'm not sure who Jason is or what he wants, but I still don't think it's true that only stupid people don't know what a good diet is. I think a shocking number of people think (or thought) things like ice cream or cookies or fast food or pizza can't be part of a good diet.
I do agree that few people eat only sweats, though I do several people IRL who get the majority of their meals from a drive thru and some who flat out refuse to eat most vegetables other than French fries. Oddly most of those will eat a few green beans.
I don't doubt that there's a lot of people out there eating a diet based around highly processed, low nutrient rich foods.
But I don't think they do that because they don't know better. I think the average person knows the basics of a healthy diet - a variety of whole foods, plenty of produce, get more fiber, maybe eat some fish, don't eat too much fast food, don't eat nothing but candy and pop tarts. They just don't want to bother. They've been convinced it's difficult to eat right, and were easy to convince because "junk food" tastes good. They hear a nutritionist on the ten o'clock news commiserate about how hard it is to eat "healthy" so they use that as an excuse and stop trying.
I understand where you are coming from, my natural instinct is always to make excuses for people and try to find ways to take care of them! But I believe we do people a disservice by buying into the idea that they don't know better. They do, they just don't want to bother.
I ate mostly fast food, soda, candy, frozen processed food when I was a teen. I knew that wasn't "healthy" but I was broke and believed the myth that eating healthy was difficult and boring, plus I was young and believed I was invincible. I didn't need to educate myself on what was healthy, I needed to educate myself on how easy it was to incorporate a healthy way of eating into my life. Just my 2 cents :drinker:
I don't think people eat diets of just fast food and other junk out of ignorance either. But that doesn't mean I believe they know what a good diet is (good = healthy and balanced). I believe that many people believe that a good balanced diet can not include fast food or candy or soda. They believe a good diet consists only of "good foods".0 -
Need2Exerc1se wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
She was referring to me.Need2Exerc1se wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »I get the math of calories in vs calories out, but I'm somewhat confused regarding minimum calorie intake and the hate on clean eating VS the eat whatever you want, as long as it's within your calories mindset.
How is 1200 calories of ice cream, fast food, and alcohol better for you than 1000 calories of tuna, eggs, and veggies? The general reasoning behind consuming no less than 1200 calories (or 1500 for men) is that you won't get enough nutrients. However, I honestly believe you'd actually get better nutrition and be healthier on a diet that consisted of clean eating but less calories.
Disclaimers: I am not advocating a super low calorie diet, just asking a question. Also, I do acknowledge that "clean eating" doesn't have a clear definition. Operate with the understanding that, to me, clean eating = minimally processed, lots of fresh vegetables, pronouncable ingredients.
People have a hate because of statements like "How is 1200 calories of ice cream, fast food, and alcohol better for you than 1000 calories of tuna, eggs, and veggies?"
Do you SERIOUSLY *PUPPY* BELIEVE that even a single person on this forum does that?
i am still waiting for this mythical person that advocates for a diet of 100% ice cream and pop tarts to show themselves...lemurcat12 wrote: »I also don't think many people eat only ice cream, fast food, and alcohol, no matter the calories, and have not seen anyone here recommend or approve such a choice, so that's a straw man.
While I don't think anyone here is suggesting that one should do that, the problem IMO is that in general a lot of people simply don't have much knowledge or regard for general nutrition.
Oh, I think anyone not totally stupid knows perfectly well what a good diet is and is not. If someone chooses to eat only ice cream (which no one does), it's not because they are confused about whether or not that's a sensible diet. It's because they don't care.
I don't think this is true. I probably would have before I joined this site but I have seen post after post where people say they thought (or think) they had to eat "healthy foods" to have a healthy diet. How many posts are there telling us not to eat <something>? How many asking "What can I eat"?
I think a good many people don't know what a good diet is and I doubt they are all totally stupid.
I think if they bothered to think about it, they'd know better. I don't mean something like not knowing optimum protein, but things like eat a balanced diet with protein and vegetables, don't base your diet around sweets and soda, ideally go for choices with more fiber vs. less when it comes to grains (but it's fine to eat some refined grains too and get your fiber elsewhere). That's the kind of basic, even a 5-year old could tell you better, stuff that Jason would have us believe people are too stupid to figure out on their own.
If someone eats only sweets (I have yet to see this myself) or no vegetables or the like, they know they aren't eating a good diet. It's just that often people don't care.
I'm not sure who Jason is or what he wants, but I still don't think it's true that only stupid people don't know what a good diet is. I think a shocking number of people think (or thought) things like ice cream or cookies or fast food or pizza can't be part of a good diet.
I do agree that few people eat only sweats, though I do several people IRL who get the majority of their meals from a drive thru and some who flat out refuse to eat most vegetables other than French fries. Oddly most of those will eat a few green beans.
I don't doubt that there's a lot of people out there eating a diet based around highly processed, low nutrient rich foods.
But I don't think they do that because they don't know better. I think the average person knows the basics of a healthy diet - a variety of whole foods, plenty of produce, get more fiber, maybe eat some fish, don't eat too much fast food, don't eat nothing but candy and pop tarts. They just don't want to bother. They've been convinced it's difficult to eat right, and were easy to convince because "junk food" tastes good. They hear a nutritionist on the ten o'clock news commiserate about how hard it is to eat "healthy" so they use that as an excuse and stop trying.
I understand where you are coming from, my natural instinct is always to make excuses for people and try to find ways to take care of them! But I believe we do people a disservice by buying into the idea that they don't know better. They do, they just don't want to bother.
I ate mostly fast food, soda, candy, frozen processed food when I was a teen. I knew that wasn't "healthy" but I was broke and believed the myth that eating healthy was difficult and boring, plus I was young and believed I was invincible. I didn't need to educate myself on what was healthy, I needed to educate myself on how easy it was to incorporate a healthy way of eating into my life. Just my 2 cents :drinker:
I don't think people eat diets of just fast food and other junk out of ignorance either. But that doesn't mean I believe they know what a good diet is (good = healthy and balanced). I believe that many people believe that a good balanced diet can not include fast food or candy or soda. They believe a good diet consists only of "good foods".
I would agree with you - to a point. I think, people generally know what is good for them - what they should be eating. We hear often enough that we need to eat more fruits and vegetables. We need to eat more fiber and more whole grains. We need more whole foods and lean meats. The list goes on and on. However, I will agree that we are also bombarded with "sugar is bad", "cut out the junk food". That leads to people thinking that the only way to eat healthy is to eat JUST the "good" foods - fruits, vegetables, whole grains, whole foods, etc. and thinking that if they eat treats - whether daily or occassionally - they are not eating a good diet.
The simple truth is: you really can do both!0 -
I get the math of calories in vs calories out, but I'm somewhat confused regarding minimum calorie intake and the hate on clean eating VS the eat whatever you want, as long as it's within your calories mindset.
How is 1200 calories of ice cream, fast food, and alcohol better for you than 1000 calories of tuna, eggs, and veggies? The general reasoning behind consuming no less than 1200 calories (or 1500 for men) is that you won't get enough nutrients. However, I honestly believe you'd actually get better nutrition and be healthier on a diet that consisted of clean eating but less calories.
Disclaimers: I am not advocating a super low calorie diet, just asking a question. Also, I do acknowledge that "clean eating" doesn't have a clear definition. Operate with the understanding that, to me, clean eating = minimally processed, lots of fresh vegetables, pronouncable ingredients.
I'm setting aside the question of calories in the most expedient way: Let's compare 1200 calories of "clean food" with 1200 calories of "junk food". Very likely, minimally processed food that includes lots of fresh vegetables and a minimum of preservatives/artificial ingrediants is going to be better for you in the long run. (I know, for me, avoiding artificial colors means I also avoid migraines.)
However: I don't eat 1200 calories. My goal to shoot for - to lose weight at a moderate pace - is 1500 calories. If I exercise, then I can eat even more than that, and still lose weight. So, I don't see any problem with focusing on eating fresh fruits and vegetables, avoiding artificial ingredients where I can and making stuff by hand when possible BUT... still having ice cream as a treat one night or eating fast food on a night when I don't have time to prepare everything from scratch or, very occassionally, enjoying a vodka collins at a celebration, so long as I stay under that magic number of 1500 calories, I'm still going to lose weight at the pace I want.
To me, life is about balance. Where I can, I try to eat "clean foods" but that's not always an option and, so long as I don't go crazy with the "junk food", that's really all right for me.0 -
Need2Exerc1se wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »I get the math of calories in vs calories out, but I'm somewhat confused regarding minimum calorie intake and the hate on clean eating VS the eat whatever you want, as long as it's within your calories mindset.
How is 1200 calories of ice cream, fast food, and alcohol better for you than 1000 calories of tuna, eggs, and veggies? The general reasoning behind consuming no less than 1200 calories (or 1500 for men) is that you won't get enough nutrients. However, I honestly believe you'd actually get better nutrition and be healthier on a diet that consisted of clean eating but less calories.
Disclaimers: I am not advocating a super low calorie diet, just asking a question. Also, I do acknowledge that "clean eating" doesn't have a clear definition. Operate with the understanding that, to me, clean eating = minimally processed, lots of fresh vegetables, pronouncable ingredients.
People have a hate because of statements like "How is 1200 calories of ice cream, fast food, and alcohol better for you than 1000 calories of tuna, eggs, and veggies?"
Do you SERIOUSLY *PUPPY* BELIEVE that even a single person on this forum does that?
i am still waiting for this mythical person that advocates for a diet of 100% ice cream and pop tarts to show themselves...lemurcat12 wrote: »I also don't think many people eat only ice cream, fast food, and alcohol, no matter the calories, and have not seen anyone here recommend or approve such a choice, so that's a straw man.
While I don't think anyone here is suggesting that one should do that, the problem IMO is that in general a lot of people simply don't have much knowledge or regard for general nutrition.
Oh, I think anyone not totally stupid knows perfectly well what a good diet is and is not. If someone chooses to eat only ice cream (which no one does), it's not because they are confused about whether or not that's a sensible diet. It's because they don't care.
I don't think this is true. I probably would have before I joined this site but I have seen post after post where people say they thought (or think) they had to eat "healthy foods" to have a healthy diet. How many posts are there telling us not to eat <something>? How many asking "What can I eat"?
I think a good many people don't know what a good diet is and I doubt they are all totally stupid.
I think if they bothered to think about it, they'd know better. I don't mean something like not knowing optimum protein, but things like eat a balanced diet with protein and vegetables, don't base your diet around sweets and soda, ideally go for choices with more fiber vs. less when it comes to grains (but it's fine to eat some refined grains too and get your fiber elsewhere). That's the kind of basic, even a 5-year old could tell you better, stuff that Jason would have us believe people are too stupid to figure out on their own.
If someone eats only sweets (I have yet to see this myself) or no vegetables or the like, they know they aren't eating a good diet. It's just that often people don't care.
I'm not sure who Jason is or what he wants
He's the poster on this thread I was originally talking to in this conversation.but I still don't think it's true that only stupid people don't know what a good diet is. I think a shocking number of people think (or thought) things like ice cream or cookies or fast food or pizza can't be part of a good diet.
On MFP that's true. I don't really see that off MFP, and people who ask questions on MFP probably aren't representative, and often aren't really thinking about it -- I think they'd know better if they did -- but bouncing from fad to fad. I do agree that people are much more likely to think they can't eat "bad foods" (whatever they define those as) than to be ignorant of the fact that they should eat a balanced diet with protein and vegetables. Jason seems to me to frequently assert that if we tell people that they can lose weight eating what they like (but of course should eat a healthful diet for nutrition and because it might help with satiety) that they will understand that to mean that they can eat Twinkies only, that we have to spoon feed them basic information like "McD's fries and cookies are not, on their own, an adequate diet." I think that's rather insulting and ridiculous -- no one thinks they are. People who choose not to eat vegetables aren't doing it because they think vegetables are unimportant. They are doing it either (in rare cases) because of a genuine health issue like Crohn's or because they simply don't like vegetables and don't want to eat them.I do agree that few people eat only sweats, though I do several people IRL who get the majority of their meals from a drive thru and some who flat out refuse to eat most vegetables other than French fries. Oddly most of those will eat a few green beans.
I've known a few of the latter, but they knew they weren't eating a good diet and that they should eat more vegetables and so on. They just didn't want to.1 -
ForecasterJason wrote: »
She was referring to me.Need2Exerc1se wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »I get the math of calories in vs calories out, but I'm somewhat confused regarding minimum calorie intake and the hate on clean eating VS the eat whatever you want, as long as it's within your calories mindset.
How is 1200 calories of ice cream, fast food, and alcohol better for you than 1000 calories of tuna, eggs, and veggies? The general reasoning behind consuming no less than 1200 calories (or 1500 for men) is that you won't get enough nutrients. However, I honestly believe you'd actually get better nutrition and be healthier on a diet that consisted of clean eating but less calories.
Disclaimers: I am not advocating a super low calorie diet, just asking a question. Also, I do acknowledge that "clean eating" doesn't have a clear definition. Operate with the understanding that, to me, clean eating = minimally processed, lots of fresh vegetables, pronouncable ingredients.
People have a hate because of statements like "How is 1200 calories of ice cream, fast food, and alcohol better for you than 1000 calories of tuna, eggs, and veggies?"
Do you SERIOUSLY *PUPPY* BELIEVE that even a single person on this forum does that?
i am still waiting for this mythical person that advocates for a diet of 100% ice cream and pop tarts to show themselves...lemurcat12 wrote: »I also don't think many people eat only ice cream, fast food, and alcohol, no matter the calories, and have not seen anyone here recommend or approve such a choice, so that's a straw man.
While I don't think anyone here is suggesting that one should do that, the problem IMO is that in general a lot of people simply don't have much knowledge or regard for general nutrition.
Oh, I think anyone not totally stupid knows perfectly well what a good diet is and is not. If someone chooses to eat only ice cream (which no one does), it's not because they are confused about whether or not that's a sensible diet. It's because they don't care.
I don't think this is true. I probably would have before I joined this site but I have seen post after post where people say they thought (or think) they had to eat "healthy foods" to have a healthy diet. How many posts are there telling us not to eat <something>? How many asking "What can I eat"?
I think a good many people don't know what a good diet is and I doubt they are all totally stupid.
I think if they bothered to think about it, they'd know better. I don't mean something like not knowing optimum protein, but things like eat a balanced diet with protein and vegetables, don't base your diet around sweets and soda, ideally go for choices with more fiber vs. less when it comes to grains (but it's fine to eat some refined grains too and get your fiber elsewhere). That's the kind of basic, even a 5-year old could tell you better, stuff that Jason would have us believe people are too stupid to figure out on their own.
If someone eats only sweets (I have yet to see this myself) or no vegetables or the like, they know they aren't eating a good diet. It's just that often people don't care.
I'm not sure who Jason is or what he wants, but I still don't think it's true that only stupid people don't know what a good diet is. I think a shocking number of people think (or thought) things like ice cream or cookies or fast food or pizza can't be part of a good diet.
I do agree that few people eat only sweats, though I do several people IRL who get the majority of their meals from a drive thru and some who flat out refuse to eat most vegetables other than French fries. Oddly most of those will eat a few green beans.
I don't doubt that there's a lot of people out there eating a diet based around highly processed, low nutrient rich foods.
But I don't think they do that because they don't know better. I think the average person knows the basics of a healthy diet - a variety of whole foods, plenty of produce, get more fiber, maybe eat some fish, don't eat too much fast food, don't eat nothing but candy and pop tarts. They just don't want to bother. They've been convinced it's difficult to eat right, and were easy to convince because "junk food" tastes good. They hear a nutritionist on the ten o'clock news commiserate about how hard it is to eat "healthy" so they use that as an excuse and stop trying.
I understand where you are coming from, my natural instinct is always to make excuses for people and try to find ways to take care of them! But I believe we do people a disservice by buying into the idea that they don't know better. They do, they just don't want to bother.
I ate mostly fast food, soda, candy, frozen processed food when I was a teen. I knew that wasn't "healthy" but I was broke and believed the myth that eating healthy was difficult and boring, plus I was young and believed I was invincible. I didn't need to educate myself on what was healthy, I needed to educate myself on how easy it was to incorporate a healthy way of eating into my life. Just my 2 cents :drinker:
Thanks, you said it more clearly than I did!1 -
Right now, I'm trying to stick to 1200 for calories. I change my diet drastically from pasta, bread normal food to what you're describing. I eat two shakes a day of spinach with fresh fruit (mixed-mango, peaches, strawberries, blueberries..) then sml handful of walnuts, ice, almond milk with a protein such as organic peanut butter or vanilla slim fast. The change that your describing has made me feel 100% better but the calorie count has been hard to maintain but I have kept the weight off. For three weeks now, I'm changing (my dinner) to a vegan meal plan. For me, the 1200 count seemed to work but everyone's chemistry is different. In my opinion move slow off the junk food and increase the "good for you stuff". Watch if you can, what the calories do for your own system. I personally can't eat any ice cream or stuff like that, as I just don't stop eating it. So counting it in my diet doesn't work for me. I don't know if there really is a certain calorie number for everyone that will work but I do know the huge different the good food has made for me in how I feel everyday. I hope that helps.0
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Need2Exerc1se wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
She was referring to me.Need2Exerc1se wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »I get the math of calories in vs calories out, but I'm somewhat confused regarding minimum calorie intake and the hate on clean eating VS the eat whatever you want, as long as it's within your calories mindset.
How is 1200 calories of ice cream, fast food, and alcohol better for you than 1000 calories of tuna, eggs, and veggies? The general reasoning behind consuming no less than 1200 calories (or 1500 for men) is that you won't get enough nutrients. However, I honestly believe you'd actually get better nutrition and be healthier on a diet that consisted of clean eating but less calories.
Disclaimers: I am not advocating a super low calorie diet, just asking a question. Also, I do acknowledge that "clean eating" doesn't have a clear definition. Operate with the understanding that, to me, clean eating = minimally processed, lots of fresh vegetables, pronouncable ingredients.
People have a hate because of statements like "How is 1200 calories of ice cream, fast food, and alcohol better for you than 1000 calories of tuna, eggs, and veggies?"
Do you SERIOUSLY *PUPPY* BELIEVE that even a single person on this forum does that?
i am still waiting for this mythical person that advocates for a diet of 100% ice cream and pop tarts to show themselves...lemurcat12 wrote: »I also don't think many people eat only ice cream, fast food, and alcohol, no matter the calories, and have not seen anyone here recommend or approve such a choice, so that's a straw man.
While I don't think anyone here is suggesting that one should do that, the problem IMO is that in general a lot of people simply don't have much knowledge or regard for general nutrition.
Oh, I think anyone not totally stupid knows perfectly well what a good diet is and is not. If someone chooses to eat only ice cream (which no one does), it's not because they are confused about whether or not that's a sensible diet. It's because they don't care.
I don't think this is true. I probably would have before I joined this site but I have seen post after post where people say they thought (or think) they had to eat "healthy foods" to have a healthy diet. How many posts are there telling us not to eat <something>? How many asking "What can I eat"?
I think a good many people don't know what a good diet is and I doubt they are all totally stupid.
I think if they bothered to think about it, they'd know better. I don't mean something like not knowing optimum protein, but things like eat a balanced diet with protein and vegetables, don't base your diet around sweets and soda, ideally go for choices with more fiber vs. less when it comes to grains (but it's fine to eat some refined grains too and get your fiber elsewhere). That's the kind of basic, even a 5-year old could tell you better, stuff that Jason would have us believe people are too stupid to figure out on their own.
If someone eats only sweets (I have yet to see this myself) or no vegetables or the like, they know they aren't eating a good diet. It's just that often people don't care.
I'm not sure who Jason is or what he wants, but I still don't think it's true that only stupid people don't know what a good diet is. I think a shocking number of people think (or thought) things like ice cream or cookies or fast food or pizza can't be part of a good diet.
I do agree that few people eat only sweats, though I do several people IRL who get the majority of their meals from a drive thru and some who flat out refuse to eat most vegetables other than French fries. Oddly most of those will eat a few green beans.
I don't doubt that there's a lot of people out there eating a diet based around highly processed, low nutrient rich foods.
But I don't think they do that because they don't know better. I think the average person knows the basics of a healthy diet - a variety of whole foods, plenty of produce, get more fiber, maybe eat some fish, don't eat too much fast food, don't eat nothing but candy and pop tarts. They just don't want to bother. They've been convinced it's difficult to eat right, and were easy to convince because "junk food" tastes good. They hear a nutritionist on the ten o'clock news commiserate about how hard it is to eat "healthy" so they use that as an excuse and stop trying.
I understand where you are coming from, my natural instinct is always to make excuses for people and try to find ways to take care of them! But I believe we do people a disservice by buying into the idea that they don't know better. They do, they just don't want to bother.
I ate mostly fast food, soda, candy, frozen processed food when I was a teen. I knew that wasn't "healthy" but I was broke and believed the myth that eating healthy was difficult and boring, plus I was young and believed I was invincible. I didn't need to educate myself on what was healthy, I needed to educate myself on how easy it was to incorporate a healthy way of eating into my life. Just my 2 cents :drinker:
I don't think people eat diets of just fast food and other junk out of ignorance either. But that doesn't mean I believe they know what a good diet is (good = healthy and balanced). I believe that many people believe that a good balanced diet can not include fast food or candy or soda. They believe a good diet consists only of "good foods".
Interestingly I feel like you are advocating for the other side of the coin from what I believe other posters are saying. You are saying that there is an assumption on some people's part that in order to have a good diet they have to eat only good foods, ie that clean eating is required in order to be healthy. I totally agree that is what some people come to these forums believing, and that is what many of the flexible dieters try to refute on a regular basis here, that it is possible to be healthy eating a variety of foods including things like candy or soda in moderation.
However I think what Lemurcat is saying is that there is this assumption on the other side that people who come in eating a nutrient poor diet, don't know any better. That those people were never taught the most basic principles of nutrition, that eating a variety of foods that ideally would include fruits, vegetables, protein, grains, dairy, healthy fats, etc. I agree with her, that to believe that people don't know that eating fried food for every meal chased with big gulps of soda and a pint of ben and jerrys for dessert is really naive or insulting, depending on your point of view.3 -
WinoGelato wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
She was referring to me.Need2Exerc1se wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »I get the math of calories in vs calories out, but I'm somewhat confused regarding minimum calorie intake and the hate on clean eating VS the eat whatever you want, as long as it's within your calories mindset.
How is 1200 calories of ice cream, fast food, and alcohol better for you than 1000 calories of tuna, eggs, and veggies? The general reasoning behind consuming no less than 1200 calories (or 1500 for men) is that you won't get enough nutrients. However, I honestly believe you'd actually get better nutrition and be healthier on a diet that consisted of clean eating but less calories.
Disclaimers: I am not advocating a super low calorie diet, just asking a question. Also, I do acknowledge that "clean eating" doesn't have a clear definition. Operate with the understanding that, to me, clean eating = minimally processed, lots of fresh vegetables, pronouncable ingredients.
People have a hate because of statements like "How is 1200 calories of ice cream, fast food, and alcohol better for you than 1000 calories of tuna, eggs, and veggies?"
Do you SERIOUSLY *PUPPY* BELIEVE that even a single person on this forum does that?
i am still waiting for this mythical person that advocates for a diet of 100% ice cream and pop tarts to show themselves...lemurcat12 wrote: »I also don't think many people eat only ice cream, fast food, and alcohol, no matter the calories, and have not seen anyone here recommend or approve such a choice, so that's a straw man.
While I don't think anyone here is suggesting that one should do that, the problem IMO is that in general a lot of people simply don't have much knowledge or regard for general nutrition.
Oh, I think anyone not totally stupid knows perfectly well what a good diet is and is not. If someone chooses to eat only ice cream (which no one does), it's not because they are confused about whether or not that's a sensible diet. It's because they don't care.
I don't think this is true. I probably would have before I joined this site but I have seen post after post where people say they thought (or think) they had to eat "healthy foods" to have a healthy diet. How many posts are there telling us not to eat <something>? How many asking "What can I eat"?
I think a good many people don't know what a good diet is and I doubt they are all totally stupid.
I think if they bothered to think about it, they'd know better. I don't mean something like not knowing optimum protein, but things like eat a balanced diet with protein and vegetables, don't base your diet around sweets and soda, ideally go for choices with more fiber vs. less when it comes to grains (but it's fine to eat some refined grains too and get your fiber elsewhere). That's the kind of basic, even a 5-year old could tell you better, stuff that Jason would have us believe people are too stupid to figure out on their own.
If someone eats only sweets (I have yet to see this myself) or no vegetables or the like, they know they aren't eating a good diet. It's just that often people don't care.
I'm not sure who Jason is or what he wants, but I still don't think it's true that only stupid people don't know what a good diet is. I think a shocking number of people think (or thought) things like ice cream or cookies or fast food or pizza can't be part of a good diet.
I do agree that few people eat only sweats, though I do several people IRL who get the majority of their meals from a drive thru and some who flat out refuse to eat most vegetables other than French fries. Oddly most of those will eat a few green beans.
I don't doubt that there's a lot of people out there eating a diet based around highly processed, low nutrient rich foods.
But I don't think they do that because they don't know better. I think the average person knows the basics of a healthy diet - a variety of whole foods, plenty of produce, get more fiber, maybe eat some fish, don't eat too much fast food, don't eat nothing but candy and pop tarts. They just don't want to bother. They've been convinced it's difficult to eat right, and were easy to convince because "junk food" tastes good. They hear a nutritionist on the ten o'clock news commiserate about how hard it is to eat "healthy" so they use that as an excuse and stop trying.
I understand where you are coming from, my natural instinct is always to make excuses for people and try to find ways to take care of them! But I believe we do people a disservice by buying into the idea that they don't know better. They do, they just don't want to bother.
I ate mostly fast food, soda, candy, frozen processed food when I was a teen. I knew that wasn't "healthy" but I was broke and believed the myth that eating healthy was difficult and boring, plus I was young and believed I was invincible. I didn't need to educate myself on what was healthy, I needed to educate myself on how easy it was to incorporate a healthy way of eating into my life. Just my 2 cents :drinker:
I don't think people eat diets of just fast food and other junk out of ignorance either. But that doesn't mean I believe they know what a good diet is (good = healthy and balanced). I believe that many people believe that a good balanced diet can not include fast food or candy or soda. They believe a good diet consists only of "good foods".
Interestingly I feel like you are advocating for the other side of the coin from what I believe other posters are saying. You are saying that there is an assumption on some people's part that in order to have a good diet they have to eat only good foods, ie that clean eating is required in order to be healthy. I totally agree that is what some people come to these forums believing, and that is what many of the flexible dieters try to refute on a regular basis here, that it is possible to be healthy eating a variety of foods including things like candy or soda in moderation.
However I think what Lemurcat is saying is that there is this assumption on the other side that people who come in eating a nutrient poor diet, don't know any better. That those people were never taught the most basic principles of nutrition, that eating a variety of foods that ideally would include fruits, vegetables, protein, grains, dairy, healthy fats, etc. I agree with her, that to believe that people don't know that eating fried food for every meal chased with big gulps of soda and a pint of ben and jerrys for dessert is really naive or insulting, depending on your point of view.
If that is what was meant, then I do agree and obviously misunderstood her post.0 -
people are conflating not caring about nutrition, with not knowing about nutrition and they are not the same thing..8
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The reason calorie minimum is set at 1200 is because it is very difficult to get adequate nutrition on less calories than that. If you ask my opinion 1200 is even too low especially if you are active. Clean eating means different things to different people. Clean eating to me means whole plant based diet with hardly no processed, packaged foods. Everyone's idea of a clean diet is different and nobody should be hating on anyone else for that.0
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If everyone's idea of a "clean diet" is so different than we can't even tell what they mean, what's the purpose/use of the term?
If this question is "hating on," we've defined "hating on" way down and no discussion is possible.1 -
Unprocessed foods!! Clean eating is whole foods, unprocessed foods. I know a lot of people who "eat clean" and if you ask anyone of them you'll get the same answer, unprocessed whole foods.1
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Unprocessed foods!! Clean eating is whole foods, unprocessed foods. I know a lot of people who "eat clean" and if you ask anyone of them you'll get the same answer, unprocessed whole foods.
I've seen a lot of people saying exactly this but looking at their diary, they had 3 protein shakes per day.2 -
stevencloser wrote: »Unprocessed foods!! Clean eating is whole foods, unprocessed foods. I know a lot of people who "eat clean" and if you ask anyone of them you'll get the same answer, unprocessed whole foods.
I've seen a lot of people saying exactly this but looking at their diary, they had 3 protein shakes per day.
Or lots of other processed foods. They seem to define "processed" weirdly.1 -
stevencloser wrote: »Unprocessed foods!! Clean eating is whole foods, unprocessed foods. I know a lot of people who "eat clean" and if you ask anyone of them you'll get the same answer, unprocessed whole foods.
I've seen a lot of people saying exactly this but looking at their diary, they had 3 protein shakes per day.
But but, Protonz shakez uses extra special healthy processing bruh!1 -
Unprocessed foods!! Clean eating is whole foods, unprocessed foods. I know a lot of people who "eat clean" and if you ask anyone of them you'll get the same answer, unprocessed whole foods.
I don't know if I've posted my list in this thread yet, but here it is anyway: http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10337480/what-is-clean-eating/p1
^all of these were given as answers when asked "What is clean eating?" Many of them are different than yours.1 -
I get the math of calories in vs calories out, but I'm somewhat confused regarding minimum calorie intake and the hate on clean eating VS the eat whatever you want, as long as it's within your calories mindset.
How is 1200 calories of ice cream, fast food, and alcohol better for you than 1000 calories of tuna, eggs, and veggies? The general reasoning behind consuming no less than 1200 calories (or 1500 for men) is that you won't get enough nutrients. However, I honestly believe you'd actually get better nutrition and be healthier on a diet that consisted of clean eating but less calories.
Disclaimers: I am not advocating a super low calorie diet, just asking a question. Also, I do acknowledge that "clean eating" doesn't have a clear definition. Operate with the understanding that, to me, clean eating = minimally processed, lots of fresh vegetables, pronouncable ingredients.
For one thing, nobody has ever said 1200 calories of ice cram and fast food is better for you and nobody actually advocates for this anyway. Secondly, part of proper nutrition is actually taking in an appropriate amount of energy (calories) for your body to operate on as well as solid nutrition. Thirdly, if you actually looked at the diets of people who say things like it's ok to have some ice cream or whatever...you would ultimately find that their diets overall are pretty solid and nutritionally sound...the whole XXXX calories of nothing but junk argument is about the stupidest thing because nobody advocates for that.1 -
Unprocessed foods!! Clean eating is whole foods, unprocessed foods. I know a lot of people who "eat clean" and if you ask anyone of them you'll get the same answer, unprocessed whole foods.Unprocessed foods!! Clean eating is whole foods, unprocessed foods. I know a lot of people who "eat clean" and if you ask anyone of them you'll get the same answer, unprocessed whole foods.
But why avoid healthful things like Greek yogurt, Steel cut oats, and even baby carrots just to meet some arbitrary definition of "clean"? Why not just eat a variety of foods you enjoy , focusing primarily on nutrient dense ones, without feeling the need to label the foods in a way that isn't clear to anyone?3
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