I keep seeing "you NEED to lift heavy"
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Char231023 wrote: »Eh, I've gained an inch in each thigh since I started running last fall and I'm eating more or less at maintenance and my weight is exactly the same. It's obviously building a bit of muscle....I mean, yeah, it's primarily improving my endurance but I'd be crazy to think I haven't increased the muscle mass in my legs (quads especially) from it. They look very different (visibly firmer/more "rounded" if that makes sense, with a little delineation) from before I started, and since I haven't lost any weight I can only conclude there's been some recomposition. I don't squat or deadlift or do any other leg or glute focused strength training, either.
I'm not saying I'm getting the kind of results I would from progressive compound lifts but to write it off as useless from a muscle-building perspective seems a little silly. I know I'm a woman and we tend to build muscle more easily in our lower bodies than upper but still, it's a great deal better than nothing and has had visible effects on me. I'm propelling my bodyweight forward into the air repeatedly for up to two hours at a time, multiple times per week, you know?
Are you running up hills? Doing any kind of resistance training. or are you strictly running?
It is hard to build muscle when you are in a deficit as I think the OP is (I am assuming because she said she had lost 50lbs).
You however are eating at maintenance which you are probably going through recomp.
No hills really, I live in a pretty flat city, but of course I do sometimes encounter short ones and some incline. I answered the other question about resistance training already, but in short, no (I do some upper body stuff but no lower body.)
As for the rest, yes, I know...which is why I said what I said, and stated it's not as effective as progressive lifting but neither is it useless (remember, you're not really going to build muscle lifting on a deficit either...just preserve what you have.) All I was trying to point out is that saying that you're not going to build any muscle doing cardio like running or swimming seems foolish to me when I can see on my own body that it isn't true (and I can certainly feel the DOMS the day after a long run too.)
(ETA: I should clarify that my goal is to run longer and faster, not to build muscle, which is why I run and don't lift.)0 -
xjessicaxrx wrote: »It just seems to me the way some people put it across on posts that your doing everything wrong if you're not lifting ! I see it every time I come on here lol
Resistance training of some form or another is pretty important as a matter of overall fitness...just running is only really training one aspect of your fitness. Do you have to lift heavy? No...it does get annoying that "heavy" seems to be the be all and end all of lifting here...I can tell you that I do cycles of heavy but I do far more mosocycles of light and moderate weight...so you don't have to lift heavy...but doing some kind of resistance training is important.
You also don't have to spend a lot of time...if it's not your primary focus, don't worry about doing splits and whatnot as it will be a waste of your time. My wife is a runner and cyclist and she does resistance training with her trainer once per week for an hour and that's it...the rest of her fitness time is spent on running and cycling...but the resistance training has:
1) given her a pretty rockin' physique,
2) made her a better and more complete athlete,
3) made her more injury resistant,
4) she is functionally a much stronger person (like day to day functionality), and
5) she has a confidence that she never had before6 -
"What are you goals?"
That's the question that people need to ask before telling you what you "need" to be doing. If people don't first find out what you want then they are just telling you what THEY need. Obviously we are not all the same.3 -
Health is the most important, you don't always need to lift heavy. Weight lifting is great for toning, but it's also calorie intake and how much exercise you are doing.
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Lifting heavy is of course not a must. You certainly don't need to lift to lose weight. However, I think when people say that, they simply mean that you should, or that it would help. Lifting is great, even (and especially) for runners. Running is great, I love running, but it doesn't build or help other muscular regions. Lifting makes running better, and healthier. It helps your body build bone density and helps your strength and balance. Just as running compliments lifting, lifting aids running. It also helps your joints get stronger, which is great when running can be damaging to knees and stuff. Not only that, but running does little to improve muscle mass or upper body strength. Running is more or less, solely cardio (not ALWAYS, but mostly, so many variables). Higher muscle densities help your body burn fat which can speed up weight loss. I started lifting heavier and I've gotten WAY more toned and I still have a long way to go. But I started lifting and focused on upper body strength (among other things) as I was frustrated with how weak I felt my upper body was. I am proud to report I can now to pullups, my arms and chest are more toned, my confidence is up and it's super liberating. The key is moderation, and just like with dieting, variation keeps your body guessing and even healthier! Of course, congrats on your progress so far! Good luck to you!5
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We just need to make a 'go to' sling for runners than runners can throw at us lifters when we complain about something.
"Run fast."
or...
"Run long."
Maybe?
I move larger amounts of mass every other day, and also run moderate distances at a relatively quick speed for my own person.
Lift heavy and run fast. I mean, if you can't lift the tree that has fallen on your friend, or get there quick enough; what does it mean to have large muscles or be a swift runner? Be both, be a god-damn hero!7 -
xjessicaxrx wrote: »I get that weight lifting is a must if you want to tone up, but the way I keep seeing people demand that this is a must for everyone on every post is baffling me!
What if you dont have the time or money to go to a gym, what if you dont enjoy lifting?
For example I have lost around 50lb over the last 12 months and recently started to actually enjoy running, and I am working hard at getting more efficient at it.
But people keep telling me that I "need" to start lifting heavy, why though? Why is my running that I enjoy not a good enough working progress? I cant say that id want to spend the little spare time I get when im not working inside a gym, am I the only person on here that thinks like this...
Different goals require different training methods as well as nutritional (energy needs)
Are you running because you enjoy it and use to burn calories OR do you need to increase your performance for running? (Sport athlete)
If you look at long distance marathon runners, they are relatively lean. (No or low fat%) It's about less weight on their frame to move a longer distance/duration.
Now, look at a sprinter who does short distance. (More muscle mass)
Their bodies will look different even though they are both running, the energy needed is different for both as well as intensity.
Let's say you run all the time, yes your cardio will be amazing. (Great for the heart!) If in a deficit, you will lose weight and bodyfat based on your macros.
All depends on what you're going for whether sport related or not...increased cardio endurance or a change in body composition. If you aren't lifting, you are missing out..plain and simple. Just as those who don't do cardio, they are missing out as well.
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Char231023 wrote: »Eh, I've gained an inch in each thigh since I started running last fall and I'm eating more or less at maintenance and my weight is exactly the same. It's obviously building a bit of muscle....I mean, yeah, it's primarily improving my endurance but I'd be crazy to think I haven't increased the muscle mass in my legs (quads especially) from it. They look very different (visibly firmer/more "rounded" if that makes sense, with a little delineation) from before I started, and since I haven't lost any weight I can only conclude there's been some recomposition. I don't squat or deadlift or do any other leg or glute focused strength training, either.
I'm not saying I'm getting the kind of results I would from progressive compound lifts but to write it off as useless from a muscle-building perspective seems a little silly. I know I'm a woman and we tend to build muscle more easily in our lower bodies than upper but still, it's a great deal better than nothing and has had visible effects on me. I'm propelling my bodyweight forward into the air repeatedly for up to two hours at a time, multiple times per week, you know?
Are you running up hills? Doing any kind of resistance training. or are you strictly running?
It is hard to build muscle when you are in a deficit as I think the OP is (I am assuming because she said she had lost 50lbs).
You however are eating at maintenance which you are probably going through recomp.
No hills really, I live in a pretty flat city, but of course I do sometimes encounter short ones and some incline. I answered the other question about resistance training already, but in short, no (I do some upper body stuff but no lower body.)
As for the rest, yes, I know...which is why I said what I said, and stated it's not as effective as progressive lifting but neither is it useless (remember, you're not really going to build muscle lifting on a deficit either...just preserve what you have.) All I was trying to point out is that saying that you're not going to build any muscle doing cardio like running or swimming seems foolish to me when I can see on my own body that it isn't true (and I can certainly feel the DOMS the day after a long run too.)
(ETA: I should clarify that my goal is to run longer and faster, not to build muscle, which is why I run and don't lift.)
You said you don't specifically train legs. But you could be doing HITT or Crossfit or any number of other workout that would include you legs in training.
That was my exactly point if you want to preserve the muscle mass you have now you should think about some form of strength training. Just because you strength train does not mean you will gain muscle mass.
DOMS doesn't necessarily mean you are building muscle.0 -
Char231023 wrote: »Char231023 wrote: »Eh, I've gained an inch in each thigh since I started running last fall and I'm eating more or less at maintenance and my weight is exactly the same. It's obviously building a bit of muscle....I mean, yeah, it's primarily improving my endurance but I'd be crazy to think I haven't increased the muscle mass in my legs (quads especially) from it. They look very different (visibly firmer/more "rounded" if that makes sense, with a little delineation) from before I started, and since I haven't lost any weight I can only conclude there's been some recomposition. I don't squat or deadlift or do any other leg or glute focused strength training, either.
I'm not saying I'm getting the kind of results I would from progressive compound lifts but to write it off as useless from a muscle-building perspective seems a little silly. I know I'm a woman and we tend to build muscle more easily in our lower bodies than upper but still, it's a great deal better than nothing and has had visible effects on me. I'm propelling my bodyweight forward into the air repeatedly for up to two hours at a time, multiple times per week, you know?
Are you running up hills? Doing any kind of resistance training. or are you strictly running?
It is hard to build muscle when you are in a deficit as I think the OP is (I am assuming because she said she had lost 50lbs).
You however are eating at maintenance which you are probably going through recomp.
No hills really, I live in a pretty flat city, but of course I do sometimes encounter short ones and some incline. I answered the other question about resistance training already, but in short, no (I do some upper body stuff but no lower body.)
As for the rest, yes, I know...which is why I said what I said, and stated it's not as effective as progressive lifting but neither is it useless (remember, you're not really going to build muscle lifting on a deficit either...just preserve what you have.) All I was trying to point out is that saying that you're not going to build any muscle doing cardio like running or swimming seems foolish to me when I can see on my own body that it isn't true (and I can certainly feel the DOMS the day after a long run too.)
(ETA: I should clarify that my goal is to run longer and faster, not to build muscle, which is why I run and don't lift.)
You said you don't specifically train legs. But you could be doing HITT or Crossfit or any number of other workout that would include you legs in training.
That was my exactly point if you want to preserve the muscle mass you have now you should think about some form of strength training. Just because you strength train does not mean you will gain muscle mass.
DOMS doesn't necessarily mean you are building muscle.
I'm not sure why you're arguing with me, as we don't really seem to be actually disagreeing on the salient points here.
Literally the only point of my original comment was just to address those who said that you're not going to build any muscle from running in response to OP's question about running/swimming/etc. I countered that yes, you probably are, and just because it's not the most efficient way to go about it doesn't mean it's not happening at all.
I consider what I've gained a side effect rather than the point of my exercise, but it's definitely there.
No other point, no need to continue
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xjessicaxrx wrote: »But you do still build muscle strength while running and other exercises (other than lifting) thats my point. Or else how and why would it get easier and your performance improve the more you do it?
Say you weigh 130 lb. If we define running as having times when neither foot is on the ground (unlike walking which always has one foot on the ground)... you're essentially doing low, one-legged jumps lifting 130 lbs. Yes, you can build muscle while running.
Will the muscle get to the same outward size as with weight lifting? Assuming you work up to lifting very heavy weights, then probably not. But it may become more dense and strong. It's not just endurance of your cardio vascular system. And it's not just how your brain is wired. There is a physiological change to your muscles for sure. Your stabilizing muscles would also see improvement.
I just think weight lifting will give you a different look, and the muscle gained while running will cap out at a certain strength (unless you keep getting heavier - likely more to do with eating too much than exercising too much... meaning you're going to end up hiding that running muscle under fat). Weight lifting gives the ability to continuously add more weight, and to add more weight than you would likely want to gain on your body.
I suppose you could run while wearing progressively increasing weights! But there are issues there with potentially damaging ligaments (eg. if you have ankle weights on, you may be more prone to hyper-extending a knee or wearing a weight vest might make you prone to overheating unless you're careful).
TL:DR
Yes, I believe you gain muscle while running - especially while improving your running. However it's limited to an amount needed to perform and maintain a task at a certain ability level, being the amount needed to lift a specific, constant (or perhaps reducing) weight many, many times over a relatively small range of motion (as it would depend on your gait). No part of that to me sounds bad. You're gaining muscles for different goals and purposes, and the appearance and ability will differ depending on how you train.2 -
xjessicaxrx wrote: »Well anything, swimming, cycling, rowing etc. Improved endurance comes from using your muscles more, therefore they get more efficient, am I wrong?
But efficiency in performing an activity is different from building muscle mass (or reducing wastage during weight loss).1 -
xjessicaxrx wrote: »I havent told or suggested that anyone does anything to build muscle let alone running, im just using examples that I can relate to! Plus im not doing it to build muscle? I run because it's convenient (I can take my dogs and exercise them at the same time) I enjoy it and it helps with my stress levels after a crappy day at work
I lost 50lb 6 months ago and have been maintaining since, and since starting running only 2 months ago my body shape has changed, my legs now have muscles which bulge when I tense, and somehow I have lost 4inch from my waist, from doing nothing else apart from running- progressively
OK....you got to your goals thought a calorie deficit (to lose 4" from your waist and fat in other places so you can see the muscle) and running.
I'm not sure what this has to do with advising people the benefits of adding a progressive overload program to their regimen, especially when the goals their looking for advice on kind of point to it.3 -
Depends on goal ..if you like to run, run ...you can make that progressive through intensity, incline, speed, distance, carrying weight if you choose to
IMHO Progressive resistance makes you look good naked, whereas being the appropriate weight means you look good in clothes
Not everybody is interested in looking good naked since most of us spend more time with clothes on....Besides, there is not proven guarantee that progressive resistance will give you a good naked body. A lot depends on genetic and age.
Edited to add that I DO lift weights and do moderate cardio.
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Do what you enjoy as long as it is active and doesn't harm your body. For me that is cycling, I can take or leave the weights and they certainly don't give me the social or mental enjoyment that a bike ride does. I used to like running since it was a quick way to get in a cardio workout burned a lot of calories but it is no good for my knees at this point in time so it falls in that category of not harming the body.0
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Char231023 wrote: »Char231023 wrote: »Eh, I've gained an inch in each thigh since I started running last fall and I'm eating more or less at maintenance and my weight is exactly the same. It's obviously building a bit of muscle....I mean, yeah, it's primarily improving my endurance but I'd be crazy to think I haven't increased the muscle mass in my legs (quads especially) from it. They look very different (visibly firmer/more "rounded" if that makes sense, with a little delineation) from before I started, and since I haven't lost any weight I can only conclude there's been some recomposition. I don't squat or deadlift or do any other leg or glute focused strength training, either.
I'm not saying I'm getting the kind of results I would from progressive compound lifts but to write it off as useless from a muscle-building perspective seems a little silly. I know I'm a woman and we tend to build muscle more easily in our lower bodies than upper but still, it's a great deal better than nothing and has had visible effects on me. I'm propelling my bodyweight forward into the air repeatedly for up to two hours at a time, multiple times per week, you know?
Are you running up hills? Doing any kind of resistance training. or are you strictly running?
It is hard to build muscle when you are in a deficit as I think the OP is (I am assuming because she said she had lost 50lbs).
You however are eating at maintenance which you are probably going through recomp.
No hills really, I live in a pretty flat city, but of course I do sometimes encounter short ones and some incline. I answered the other question about resistance training already, but in short, no (I do some upper body stuff but no lower body.)
As for the rest, yes, I know...which is why I said what I said, and stated it's not as effective as progressive lifting but neither is it useless (remember, you're not really going to build muscle lifting on a deficit either...just preserve what you have.) All I was trying to point out is that saying that you're not going to build any muscle doing cardio like running or swimming seems foolish to me when I can see on my own body that it isn't true (and I can certainly feel the DOMS the day after a long run too.)
(ETA: I should clarify that my goal is to run longer and faster, not to build muscle, which is why I run and don't lift.)
You said you don't specifically train legs. But you could be doing HITT or Crossfit or any number of other workout that would include you legs in training.
That was my exactly point if you want to preserve the muscle mass you have now you should think about some form of strength training. Just because you strength train does not mean you will gain muscle mass.
DOMS doesn't necessarily mean you are building muscle.
I'm not sure why you're arguing with me, as we don't really seem to be actually disagreeing on the salient points here.
Literally the only point of my original comment was just to address those who said that you're not going to build any muscle from running in response to OP's question about running/swimming/etc. I countered that yes, you probably are, and just because it's not the most efficient way to go about it doesn't mean it's not happening at all.
I consider what I've gained a side effect rather than the point of my exercise, but it's definitely there.
No other point, no need to continue
I wasn't arguing with you. I just asked if you were doing something other than running to explain your gain of an inch growth on each thigh.
You got a little defensive when I questioned you about another form of resistance training.
Though ou are right no need to continue
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Hope you are reading through all of these...if not, probably better if i had sent my post to you directly lol.0
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Do what you love and what will help you achieve your goals. I love to run so that's what I do. I recently started cross-training with some body weight exercises, and that's only because they will help me be a better runner/help prevent injury.
And FWIW, I don't progressively lift and I look great naked.
ETA: "Good" means different things to different people. I'm at a body fat percentage that I'm comfortable with and fits well with the lifestyle that I want to live. Some people absolutely wouldn't be happy at this BF% because it doesn't fit within their goals, and that's just fine. Find what your goals are - fitness and lifestyle related - and then you can plan how you'd like to get there.1 -
Depends on goal ..if you like to run, run ...you can make that progressive through intensity, incline, speed, distance, carrying weight if you choose to
IMHO Progressive resistance makes you look good naked, whereas being the appropriate weight means you look good in clothes
Not everybody is interested in looking good naked since most of us spend more time with clothes on....Besides, there is not proven guarantee that progressive resistance will give you a good naked body. A lot depends on genetic and age.
Edited to add that I DO lift weights and do moderate cardio.
Is there a reason you would take a strangers opinion on the benefits of progressive resistance so personally?
It wasn't directed at everybody ..it was my opinion. I personally am interested in looking good naked and in clothes, I'm also old enough to hit the "age" part of your 'depends on'...and I still want to look good naked ..how does that impact on "everyone"
I do believe that the right training can help you towards your desired body aesthetic within your genetic potential
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middlehaitch wrote: »I flog heavy lifting and protein like an old fish wife.
Why? Because I respond to a lot of threads that involve menopausal and older women and some kind of strength/resistance work and a higher level of protein is so important in maintaining muscle mass and bone density. Cardio is too for cardio- vascular fitness and, along with a calorie deficit, decreasing visceral fat.
I had never done any form of exercise until I was a menopausal 54yo. Aqua fit and 2lbs Dumbbells were enough to increase my strength to begin with.
By the time I had graduated to 5 lbs Dumbbells and Pilates I was reading the forums and found the cult of lifting heavy intimidating. This lasted ever such a long time- I had moved on to include Nerdfitness bodyweight as well by then.
One day a light went off in my head- what was meant was 'lift what is heavy for me'.
A whole new world opened. I started reading those cultish threads and the research papers that were often posted. I learnt a lot!
Extra protein was added to my diet, more is needed as you become elderly. And I learnt all about how inactivity as we age leads to muscle atrophy and decreasing bone density.
I found one of those heavy lifting programmes that I thought I could work with, subbed in hand weights or machines when I couldn't do the move using a 45lbs bar, and haven't looked back.
I will never be ripped but will enter old age (62now) knowledgable, strong, independent, and with not a bad looking body to boot.
I would like to thank the cult of heavy lifters for their constant posts.
If lifting isn't your cup of tea, that is fine, you have no need to do it. But, for a lot of people it can, for vanity or health reasons, be just what they are looking for but don't yet know. I didn't.
Cheers, h.
I am just repeating @middlehaitch post cos I think it is relevant and appropriate
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Also whenever I say lift heavy it is to emphasise that a 5 or 10lb dumbbell is not what is meant
Women have been poorly served in the fitness industry by the concept of greater reps and pink Dumbbells ...IMHO
Win!
rather the words heavy lifting is a named trend or not, the term is used here that most of us come to see a lot and very used to in which we mean to specially say heavy lifting always means not the 5, 10 pound weenie weights!
Wow, my gym has sets of 15 and 20lbs "pink" dumb bells, so I guess that the color makes them weenies...
So sad an unfair to put labels on what people want or can lift.3
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