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Are short fasts really helpful for burning fat?
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Carlos_421 wrote: »louann_jude wrote: »I do IF daily. I use the window of 16:8 or 18:6. I exercise better first thing in the morning at a fasted state. I also get more done cleaning wise. I eat at a calorie deficit every day. I just get to eat larger meals during my window which helps me from eating to much. I do weigh, measure and log everything I eat. I do have one to two high calorie days a month where I eat at maintenance.
The way I do things may not work for every one else. But it definitely works for me. I have lost 93 pounds. I will always have to weigh and measure my food. It's to easy to eat to much when not doing it. Because what we think is a serving size and what actually is is totally different.
Wow! 93 lbs is a lot of weight. That is so impressive!!
I fully understand that a lot of people need to measure their food to get good estimates. Yesterday I eat a lot. Full breakfast, 300 kc of nuts, full lunch and a complete Japanese dinner. That would be about 800 + 300 + 900 + 1100 kc, or 3100 kc (+/- 10%) That is good enough for me. (Supper was tendon and cold soba. Tendon is tempura served on rice.) However my calorie burn was 3587 kc, it was high because I ran 5 km pretty hard while fasted, 75 floors of stairs (more really, the watch cheats on floor counting) and walked another 10 km. However my heartrate was also much more elevated that normal. I think that happens on days after a fast. On days I don't fast it isn't common to break 3000 kc burned.
But how do you know it was 300 kcal of nuts if you didn't weigh them???
Come on that is a lame question. Nuts can be purchased in packages.
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Packages that can be off in weight up to 20%.3
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Carlos_421 wrote: »louann_jude wrote: »I do IF daily. I use the window of 16:8 or 18:6. I exercise better first thing in the morning at a fasted state. I also get more done cleaning wise. I eat at a calorie deficit every day. I just get to eat larger meals during my window which helps me from eating to much. I do weigh, measure and log everything I eat. I do have one to two high calorie days a month where I eat at maintenance.
The way I do things may not work for every one else. But it definitely works for me. I have lost 93 pounds. I will always have to weigh and measure my food. It's to easy to eat to much when not doing it. Because what we think is a serving size and what actually is is totally different.
Wow! 93 lbs is a lot of weight. That is so impressive!!
I fully understand that a lot of people need to measure their food to get good estimates. Yesterday I eat a lot. Full breakfast, 300 kc of nuts, full lunch and a complete Japanese dinner. That would be about 800 + 300 + 900 + 1100 kc, or 3100 kc (+/- 10%) That is good enough for me. (Supper was tendon and cold soba. Tendon is tempura served on rice.) However my calorie burn was 3587 kc, it was high because I ran 5 km pretty hard while fasted, 75 floors of stairs (more really, the watch cheats on floor counting) and walked another 10 km. However my heartrate was also much more elevated that normal. I think that happens on days after a fast. On days I don't fast it isn't common to break 3000 kc burned.
But how do you know it was 300 kcal of nuts if you didn't weigh them???
Come on that is a lame question. Nuts can be purchased in packages.
Were those?
And what about your "full lunch" and "complete Japanese dinner?" How do you know how many calories were in those?1 -
Carlos_421 wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »louann_jude wrote: »I do IF daily. I use the window of 16:8 or 18:6. I exercise better first thing in the morning at a fasted state. I also get more done cleaning wise. I eat at a calorie deficit every day. I just get to eat larger meals during my window which helps me from eating to much. I do weigh, measure and log everything I eat. I do have one to two high calorie days a month where I eat at maintenance.
The way I do things may not work for every one else. But it definitely works for me. I have lost 93 pounds. I will always have to weigh and measure my food. It's to easy to eat to much when not doing it. Because what we think is a serving size and what actually is is totally different.
Wow! 93 lbs is a lot of weight. That is so impressive!!
I fully understand that a lot of people need to measure their food to get good estimates. Yesterday I eat a lot. Full breakfast, 300 kc of nuts, full lunch and a complete Japanese dinner. That would be about 800 + 300 + 900 + 1100 kc, or 3100 kc (+/- 10%) That is good enough for me. (Supper was tendon and cold soba. Tendon is tempura served on rice.) However my calorie burn was 3587 kc, it was high because I ran 5 km pretty hard while fasted, 75 floors of stairs (more really, the watch cheats on floor counting) and walked another 10 km. However my heartrate was also much more elevated that normal. I think that happens on days after a fast. On days I don't fast it isn't common to break 3000 kc burned.
But how do you know it was 300 kcal of nuts if you didn't weigh them???
Come on that is a lame question. Nuts can be purchased in packages.
Were those?
And what about your "full lunch" and "complete Japanese dinner?" How do you know how many calories were in those?
Breakfast and lunch I figured out when I was logging. Dinner was a best guess, it was a very big dinner. In Japan it is common to list the calories of meals in many stores so those can be used as comparison.
Yesterday was a very heavy food day. Really doesn't make a difference if I'm 10% high or low. Today I'm skipping supper and didn't add anything, so I'm at 1500 kc for the day. I actually feel a little hungry right now, probably form eating so much yesterday. My calories burned today will probably end up about 2850.
These are all just estimates, even if you use a scale. The way calories are measured isn't even remotely close to how the body metabolizes the food. Tracking calories off of heartrate too is another form of estimation. Additionally the so called 3500 kc / lb of fat is another estimate. Striving for exactness is a waste of time. Anyway I'm eating out a lot right now and I can't easily change that right now. So weighing food isn't really an option.
I'm also not doing things in isolation, so it is really murky about the value of each part. Here are the current things I'm doing.
* Cut way back of refined sugar - pretty sure that is driving the reduction in visceral fat if nothing else. It took me 2 years to go from 106 cm waistline to 103 cm, after cutting sugar I'm at 88 cm in only 4 months.
* Changing the foods I eat, mostly adding complex carbs, some healthy fats and more protein.
* Trying to run a slight calorie deficit of ~250 kc / day average. At least for now.
* Experimenting with fasting multiple times a week.
* When I eat back calories from fasting I'm choosing fats and protein. I already have enough carbs in breakfast.
* Doing most workouts while in the fasted state.
Anyone one of those things by themselves can help with weight loss.
I'm pretty sure though the fasting helps with fat lose because my workouts are more consistent. I find I don't really have to pause. That was true when I started too, except I'm now pushing harder than I was six weeks ago. It would likely be a wash if I did the same workouts after eating. At around 15 hours into the fast, I start feeling very good and energetic. Right now I'm 9 hours in, and I'm just feeling a little hungry and tried. That seems to be a typical pattern. I'll go to bed very soon and when I wake up I'll probably feel really good. I haven't had any problem sleeping while fasting, so it is a good thing to do when I'm feeling a little hungry.
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This I agree with, especially the bolded...These are all just estimates, even if you use a scale. The way calories are measured isn't even remotely close to how the body metabolizes the food. Tracking calories off of heartrate too is another form of estimation. Additionally the so called 3500 kc / lb of fat is another estimate. Striving for exactness is a waste of time. Anyway I'm eating out a lot right now and I can't easily change that right now. So weighing food isn't really an option.
In regards to the bolded, this is why it is generally a bad idea to make generalizations...I'm also not doing things in isolation, so it is really murky about the value of each part. Here are the current things I'm doing.
* Cut way back of refined sugar - pretty sure that is driving the reduction in visceral fat if nothing else. It took me 2 years to go from 106 cm waistline to 103 cm, after cutting sugar I'm at 88 cm in only 4 months.
* Changing the foods I eat, mostly adding complex carbs, some healthy fats and more protein.
* Trying to run a slight calorie deficit of ~250 kc / day average. At least for now.
* Experimenting with fasting multiple times a week.
* When I eat back calories from fasting I'm choosing fats and protein. I already have enough carbs in breakfast.
* Doing most workouts while in the fasted state.
Anyone one of those things by themselves can help with weight loss.
So exercise is helpful for fat loss then...I'm pretty sure though the fasting helps with fat lose because my workouts are more consistent.
Only if it effected the quality of your workouts. If calories are equal it shouldn't have an effect. I say shouldn't because obviously for some it does. But this goes back to your other true statement, things are not done in isolation so it is very hard to pick out the one thing that worked...It would likely be a wash if I did the same workouts after eating.
In my experience this was probably due to cortisol release. Probably the bodies way of getting us to get up and find some food...At around 15 hours into the fast, I start feeling very good and energetic.2 -
@dykask I think this is something you would be interested in...
https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/snr-65-lyle-mcdonald-fat-loss/id857888327?i=1000340393737&mt=20 -
Sooo.......you're eyeballing portions and guessing the calorie content of your foods and presenting the resulting numbers as evidence for your theory. K.
And sure, even using scales won't give you a perfectly accurate calorie count but it's certainly more accurate than eyeballing your servings and estimating calories based on comparisons with other foods.
Again, I'm not implying that you're not seeing success. It's clear that you are. I'm just saying that your success is not occurring for the reasons you believe and that the statistics you're quoting to support your beliefs are likely highly inaccurate.2 -
Carlos_421 wrote: »Sooo.......you're eyeballing portions and guessing the calorie content of your foods and presenting the resulting numbers as evidence for your theory. K.
And sure, even using scales won't give you a perfectly accurate calorie count but it's certainly more accurate than eyeballing your servings and estimating calories based on comparisons with other foods.
Again, I'm not implying that you're not seeing success. It's clear that you are. I'm just saying that your success is not occurring for the reasons you believe and that the statistics you're quoting to support your beliefs are likely highly inaccurate.
Yep, the how and the why...2 -
Carlos_421 wrote: »Sooo.......you're eyeballing portions and guessing the calorie content of your foods and presenting the resulting numbers as evidence for your theory. K.
And sure, even using scales won't give you a perfectly accurate calorie count but it's certainly more accurate than eyeballing your servings and estimating calories based on comparisons with other foods.
Again, I'm not implying that you're not seeing success. It's clear that you are. I'm just saying that your success is not occurring for the reasons you believe and that the statistics you're quoting to support your beliefs are likely highly inaccurate.
What, this:
isn't a good way to balance things? Focus strongly on the minutia in details, and only guess at measurements for the things that impact 90% of results?2 -
Carlos_421 wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »louann_jude wrote: »I do IF daily. I use the window of 16:8 or 18:6. I exercise better first thing in the morning at a fasted state. I also get more done cleaning wise. I eat at a calorie deficit every day. I just get to eat larger meals during my window which helps me from eating to much. I do weigh, measure and log everything I eat. I do have one to two high calorie days a month where I eat at maintenance.
The way I do things may not work for every one else. But it definitely works for me. I have lost 93 pounds. I will always have to weigh and measure my food. It's to easy to eat to much when not doing it. Because what we think is a serving size and what actually is is totally different.
Wow! 93 lbs is a lot of weight. That is so impressive!!
I fully understand that a lot of people need to measure their food to get good estimates. Yesterday I eat a lot. Full breakfast, 300 kc of nuts, full lunch and a complete Japanese dinner. That would be about 800 + 300 + 900 + 1100 kc, or 3100 kc (+/- 10%) That is good enough for me. (Supper was tendon and cold soba. Tendon is tempura served on rice.) However my calorie burn was 3587 kc, it was high because I ran 5 km pretty hard while fasted, 75 floors of stairs (more really, the watch cheats on floor counting) and walked another 10 km. However my heartrate was also much more elevated that normal. I think that happens on days after a fast. On days I don't fast it isn't common to break 3000 kc burned.
But how do you know it was 300 kcal of nuts if you didn't weigh them???
Come on that is a lame question. Nuts can be purchased in packages.
Were those?
And what about your "full lunch" and "complete Japanese dinner?" How do you know how many calories were in those?
Breakfast and lunch I figured out when I was logging. Dinner was a best guess, it was a very big dinner. In Japan it is common to list the calories of meals in many stores so those can be used as comparison.
Yesterday was a very heavy food day. Really doesn't make a difference if I'm 10% high or low. Today I'm skipping supper and didn't add anything, so I'm at 1500 kc for the day. I actually feel a little hungry right now, probably form eating so much yesterday. My calories burned today will probably end up about 2850.
These are all just estimates, even if you use a scale. The way calories are measured isn't even remotely close to how the body metabolizes the food. Tracking calories off of heartrate too is another form of estimation. Additionally the so called 3500 kc / lb of fat is another estimate. Striving for exactness is a waste of time. Anyway I'm eating out a lot right now and I can't easily change that right now. So weighing food isn't really an option.
I'm also not doing things in isolation, so it is really murky about the value of each part. Here are the current things I'm doing.
* Cut way back of refined sugar - pretty sure that is driving the reduction in visceral fat if nothing else. It took me 2 years to go from 106 cm waistline to 103 cm, after cutting sugar I'm at 88 cm in only 4 months.
* Changing the foods I eat, mostly adding complex carbs, some healthy fats and more protein.
* Trying to run a slight calorie deficit of ~250 kc / day average. At least for now.
* Experimenting with fasting multiple times a week.
* When I eat back calories from fasting I'm choosing fats and protein. I already have enough carbs in breakfast.
* Doing most workouts while in the fasted state.
Anyone one of those things by themselves can help with weight loss.
I'm pretty sure though the fasting helps with fat lose because my workouts are more consistent. I find I don't really have to pause. That was true when I started too, except I'm now pushing harder than I was six weeks ago. It would likely be a wash if I did the same workouts after eating. At around 15 hours into the fast, I start feeling very good and energetic. Right now I'm 9 hours in, and I'm just feeling a little hungry and tried. That seems to be a typical pattern. I'll go to bed very soon and when I wake up I'll probably feel really good. I haven't had any problem sleeping while fasting, so it is a good thing to do when I'm feeling a little hungry.
How would you know your visceral fat is going down? Are you getting exploratory surgery done periodically?
This is quite easy. You measure you waistline right across the belly button. You also do skin fold there so then the difference in between total volume lost and subcutaneous fat is the difference in visceral fat at that slice at the waist. I've lost 15cm at my waist line in four months, most of that has been visceral fat, although I'm now starting to lose subcutaneous fat. You can estimate volume by considering your waist an circle and the waistline the circumference of the circle.
I've also done a DEXA scan.
On a day to day basis I use bio impedance measurement which is easy to do, but for visceral fat it only really tells you if you are gaining or losing over multiple weeks.
There are other methods that could be used, for example ultrasound. I used to working on software high end ultrasound systems, but no longer have access to that. However that is much safer and accurate than surgery would be.
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Carlos_421 wrote: »Sooo.......you're eyeballing portions and guessing the calorie content of your foods and presenting the resulting numbers as evidence for your theory. K.
And sure, even using scales won't give you a perfectly accurate calorie count but it's certainly more accurate than eyeballing your servings and estimating calories based on comparisons with other foods.
Again, I'm not implying that you're not seeing success. It's clear that you are. I'm just saying that your success is not occurring for the reasons you believe and that the statistics you're quoting to support your beliefs are likely highly inaccurate.
And you are making assumptions about my accuracy when you know nothing about me. I've been controlling my diet for years, I know very well exactly what I'm doing. I'm not some newbie crying that I'm not losing weight. Just because something doesn't fit in to your model of the world, doesn't mean it is wrong.1 -
This I agree with, especially the bolded...These are all just estimates, even if you use a scale. The way calories are measured isn't even remotely close to how the body metabolizes the food. Tracking calories off of heartrate too is another form of estimation. Additionally the so called 3500 kc / lb of fat is another estimate. Striving for exactness is a waste of time. Anyway I'm eating out a lot right now and I can't easily change that right now. So weighing food isn't really an option.
In regards to the bolded, this is why it is generally a bad idea to make generalizations...I'm also not doing things in isolation, so it is really murky about the value of each part. Here are the current things I'm doing.
* Cut way back of refined sugar - pretty sure that is driving the reduction in visceral fat if nothing else. It took me 2 years to go from 106 cm waistline to 103 cm, after cutting sugar I'm at 88 cm in only 4 months.
* Changing the foods I eat, mostly adding complex carbs, some healthy fats and more protein.
* Trying to run a slight calorie deficit of ~250 kc / day average. At least for now.
* Experimenting with fasting multiple times a week.
* When I eat back calories from fasting I'm choosing fats and protein. I already have enough carbs in breakfast.
* Doing most workouts while in the fasted state.
Anyone one of those things by themselves can help with weight loss.
So exercise is helpful for fat loss then...I'm pretty sure though the fasting helps with fat lose because my workouts are more consistent.
Only if it effected the quality of your workouts. If calories are equal it shouldn't have an effect. I say shouldn't because obviously for some it does. But this goes back to your other true statement, things are not done in isolation so it is very hard to pick out the one thing that worked...It would likely be a wash if I did the same workouts after eating.
In my experience this was probably due to cortisol release. Probably the bodies way of getting us to get up and find some food...At around 15 hours into the fast, I start feeling very good and energetic.
Just to be 100% clear I have never said exercising isn't helpful for fat loss. Exercise though often will cause people to gain weight not lose weight over some periods of time. There is a lot more to weight than just fat.
Additionally many people tend to overeat with exercise. That can lead to at least maintaining fat while building muscle. Exercise with diet control is different than just exercising without paying attention to diet.0 -
This I agree with, especially the bolded...These are all just estimates, even if you use a scale. The way calories are measured isn't even remotely close to how the body metabolizes the food. Tracking calories off of heartrate too is another form of estimation. Additionally the so called 3500 kc / lb of fat is another estimate. Striving for exactness is a waste of time. Anyway I'm eating out a lot right now and I can't easily change that right now. So weighing food isn't really an option.
In regards to the bolded, this is why it is generally a bad idea to make generalizations...I'm also not doing things in isolation, so it is really murky about the value of each part. Here are the current things I'm doing.
* Cut way back of refined sugar - pretty sure that is driving the reduction in visceral fat if nothing else. It took me 2 years to go from 106 cm waistline to 103 cm, after cutting sugar I'm at 88 cm in only 4 months.
* Changing the foods I eat, mostly adding complex carbs, some healthy fats and more protein.
* Trying to run a slight calorie deficit of ~250 kc / day average. At least for now.
* Experimenting with fasting multiple times a week.
* When I eat back calories from fasting I'm choosing fats and protein. I already have enough carbs in breakfast.
* Doing most workouts while in the fasted state.
Anyone one of those things by themselves can help with weight loss.
So exercise is helpful for fat loss then...I'm pretty sure though the fasting helps with fat lose because my workouts are more consistent.
Only if it effected the quality of your workouts. If calories are equal it shouldn't have an effect. I say shouldn't because obviously for some it does. But this goes back to your other true statement, things are not done in isolation so it is very hard to pick out the one thing that worked...It would likely be a wash if I did the same workouts after eating.
In my experience this was probably due to cortisol release. Probably the bodies way of getting us to get up and find some food...At around 15 hours into the fast, I start feeling very good and energetic.
Just to be 100% clear I have never said exercising isn't helpful for fat loss. Exercise though often will cause people to gain weight not lose weight over some periods of time. There is a lot more to weight than just fat.
Additionally many people tend to overeat with exercise. That can lead to at least maintaining fat while building muscle. Exercise with diet control is different than just exercising without paying attention to diet.
Well to that point, if you are losing fat and gaining weight you are gaining muscle, which is a good thing...0 -
queenliz99 wrote: »
This I agree with, especially the bolded...These are all just estimates, even if you use a scale. The way calories are measured isn't even remotely close to how the body metabolizes the food. Tracking calories off of heartrate too is another form of estimation. Additionally the so called 3500 kc / lb of fat is another estimate. Striving for exactness is a waste of time. Anyway I'm eating out a lot right now and I can't easily change that right now. So weighing food isn't really an option.
In regards to the bolded, this is why it is generally a bad idea to make generalizations...I'm also not doing things in isolation, so it is really murky about the value of each part. Here are the current things I'm doing.
* Cut way back of refined sugar - pretty sure that is driving the reduction in visceral fat if nothing else. It took me 2 years to go from 106 cm waistline to 103 cm, after cutting sugar I'm at 88 cm in only 4 months.
* Changing the foods I eat, mostly adding complex carbs, some healthy fats and more protein.
* Trying to run a slight calorie deficit of ~250 kc / day average. At least for now.
* Experimenting with fasting multiple times a week.
* When I eat back calories from fasting I'm choosing fats and protein. I already have enough carbs in breakfast.
* Doing most workouts while in the fasted state.
Anyone one of those things by themselves can help with weight loss.
So exercise is helpful for fat loss then...I'm pretty sure though the fasting helps with fat lose because my workouts are more consistent.
Only if it effected the quality of your workouts. If calories are equal it shouldn't have an effect. I say shouldn't because obviously for some it does. But this goes back to your other true statement, things are not done in isolation so it is very hard to pick out the one thing that worked...It would likely be a wash if I did the same workouts after eating.
In my experience this was probably due to cortisol release. Probably the bodies way of getting us to get up and find some food...At around 15 hours into the fast, I start feeling very good and energetic.
Just to be 100% clear I have never said exercising isn't helpful for fat loss. Exercise though often will cause people to gain weight not lose weight over some periods of time. There is a lot more to weight than just fat.
Additionally many people tend to overeat with exercise. That can lead to at least maintaining fat while building muscle. Exercise with diet control is different than just exercising without paying attention to diet.
Well to that point, if you are losing fat and gaining weight you are gaining muscle, which is a good thing...
Good is subjective, not everyone wants to build muscle. Since you like pointing out others are generalizing, maybe you shouldn't do it yourself.
Confused. Are you arguing to argue? My sixteen year old is like this, too! This is black, no it's white, mom!
No, not confused, it is often the same few people that diss everything yet never add any value to threads.
Honest, nobody is dissing you. I've been here awhile and I've seen this a lot. People claim they are eating at a deficit, trying to maintain or even trying to gain but don't really track their intake very good.0 -
This I agree with, especially the bolded...These are all just estimates, even if you use a scale. The way calories are measured isn't even remotely close to how the body metabolizes the food. Tracking calories off of heartrate too is another form of estimation. Additionally the so called 3500 kc / lb of fat is another estimate. Striving for exactness is a waste of time. Anyway I'm eating out a lot right now and I can't easily change that right now. So weighing food isn't really an option.
In regards to the bolded, this is why it is generally a bad idea to make generalizations...I'm also not doing things in isolation, so it is really murky about the value of each part. Here are the current things I'm doing.
* Cut way back of refined sugar - pretty sure that is driving the reduction in visceral fat if nothing else. It took me 2 years to go from 106 cm waistline to 103 cm, after cutting sugar I'm at 88 cm in only 4 months.
* Changing the foods I eat, mostly adding complex carbs, some healthy fats and more protein.
* Trying to run a slight calorie deficit of ~250 kc / day average. At least for now.
* Experimenting with fasting multiple times a week.
* When I eat back calories from fasting I'm choosing fats and protein. I already have enough carbs in breakfast.
* Doing most workouts while in the fasted state.
Anyone one of those things by themselves can help with weight loss.
So exercise is helpful for fat loss then...I'm pretty sure though the fasting helps with fat lose because my workouts are more consistent.
Only if it effected the quality of your workouts. If calories are equal it shouldn't have an effect. I say shouldn't because obviously for some it does. But this goes back to your other true statement, things are not done in isolation so it is very hard to pick out the one thing that worked...It would likely be a wash if I did the same workouts after eating.
In my experience this was probably due to cortisol release. Probably the bodies way of getting us to get up and find some food...At around 15 hours into the fast, I start feeling very good and energetic.
Just to be 100% clear I have never said exercising isn't helpful for fat loss. Exercise though often will cause people to gain weight not lose weight over some periods of time. There is a lot more to weight than just fat.
Additionally many people tend to overeat with exercise. That can lead to at least maintaining fat while building muscle. Exercise with diet control is different than just exercising without paying attention to diet.
Well to that point, if you are losing fat and gaining weight you are gaining muscle, which is a good thing...
Good is subjective, not everyone wants to build muscle. Since you like pointing out others are generalizing, maybe you shouldn't do it yourself.
So let me get this straight. Are you suggesting that it is unhealthy to have a well muscled body? That adding muscle mass is anything but a good thing for overall health? Mind you, I am not talking about body builder type muscle...1
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