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Are short fasts really helpful for burning fat?
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This I agree with, especially the bolded...These are all just estimates, even if you use a scale. The way calories are measured isn't even remotely close to how the body metabolizes the food. Tracking calories off of heartrate too is another form of estimation. Additionally the so called 3500 kc / lb of fat is another estimate. Striving for exactness is a waste of time. Anyway I'm eating out a lot right now and I can't easily change that right now. So weighing food isn't really an option.
In regards to the bolded, this is why it is generally a bad idea to make generalizations...I'm also not doing things in isolation, so it is really murky about the value of each part. Here are the current things I'm doing.
* Cut way back of refined sugar - pretty sure that is driving the reduction in visceral fat if nothing else. It took me 2 years to go from 106 cm waistline to 103 cm, after cutting sugar I'm at 88 cm in only 4 months.
* Changing the foods I eat, mostly adding complex carbs, some healthy fats and more protein.
* Trying to run a slight calorie deficit of ~250 kc / day average. At least for now.
* Experimenting with fasting multiple times a week.
* When I eat back calories from fasting I'm choosing fats and protein. I already have enough carbs in breakfast.
* Doing most workouts while in the fasted state.
Anyone one of those things by themselves can help with weight loss.
So exercise is helpful for fat loss then...I'm pretty sure though the fasting helps with fat lose because my workouts are more consistent.
Only if it effected the quality of your workouts. If calories are equal it shouldn't have an effect. I say shouldn't because obviously for some it does. But this goes back to your other true statement, things are not done in isolation so it is very hard to pick out the one thing that worked...It would likely be a wash if I did the same workouts after eating.
In my experience this was probably due to cortisol release. Probably the bodies way of getting us to get up and find some food...At around 15 hours into the fast, I start feeling very good and energetic.
Just to be 100% clear I have never said exercising isn't helpful for fat loss. Exercise though often will cause people to gain weight not lose weight over some periods of time. There is a lot more to weight than just fat.
Additionally many people tend to overeat with exercise. That can lead to at least maintaining fat while building muscle. Exercise with diet control is different than just exercising without paying attention to diet.
Well to that point, if you are losing fat and gaining weight you are gaining muscle, which is a good thing...
Good is subjective, not everyone wants to build muscle. Since you like pointing out others are generalizing, maybe you shouldn't do it yourself.
So let me get this straight. Are you suggesting that it is unhealthy to have a well muscled body? That adding muscle mass is anything but a good thing for overall health? Mind you, I am not talking about body builder type muscle...
From what i gather his argument is the all exercise makes people over eat. And that controlling diet is what is required to lose weight.
And from my gatherings he isnt weight training so I doubt there is muscle gain. What confuses me is for someone who talks so much about metabolism why would you 1) not want to gain muscle since it is directly related to metabolism and 2) recognize that diet alone makes it hard to maintain muscle mass and if there isnt some kind of resistance training done during weight loss that maintaining your metabolism is more difficult.3 -
This I agree with, especially the bolded...These are all just estimates, even if you use a scale. The way calories are measured isn't even remotely close to how the body metabolizes the food. Tracking calories off of heartrate too is another form of estimation. Additionally the so called 3500 kc / lb of fat is another estimate. Striving for exactness is a waste of time. Anyway I'm eating out a lot right now and I can't easily change that right now. So weighing food isn't really an option.
In regards to the bolded, this is why it is generally a bad idea to make generalizations...I'm also not doing things in isolation, so it is really murky about the value of each part. Here are the current things I'm doing.
* Cut way back of refined sugar - pretty sure that is driving the reduction in visceral fat if nothing else. It took me 2 years to go from 106 cm waistline to 103 cm, after cutting sugar I'm at 88 cm in only 4 months.
* Changing the foods I eat, mostly adding complex carbs, some healthy fats and more protein.
* Trying to run a slight calorie deficit of ~250 kc / day average. At least for now.
* Experimenting with fasting multiple times a week.
* When I eat back calories from fasting I'm choosing fats and protein. I already have enough carbs in breakfast.
* Doing most workouts while in the fasted state.
Anyone one of those things by themselves can help with weight loss.
So exercise is helpful for fat loss then...I'm pretty sure though the fasting helps with fat lose because my workouts are more consistent.
Only if it effected the quality of your workouts. If calories are equal it shouldn't have an effect. I say shouldn't because obviously for some it does. But this goes back to your other true statement, things are not done in isolation so it is very hard to pick out the one thing that worked...It would likely be a wash if I did the same workouts after eating.
In my experience this was probably due to cortisol release. Probably the bodies way of getting us to get up and find some food...At around 15 hours into the fast, I start feeling very good and energetic.
Just to be 100% clear I have never said exercising isn't helpful for fat loss. Exercise though often will cause people to gain weight not lose weight over some periods of time. There is a lot more to weight than just fat.
Additionally many people tend to overeat with exercise. That can lead to at least maintaining fat while building muscle. Exercise with diet control is different than just exercising without paying attention to diet.
Well to that point, if you are losing fat and gaining weight you are gaining muscle, which is a good thing...
Good is subjective, not everyone wants to build muscle. Since you like pointing out others are generalizing, maybe you shouldn't do it yourself.
So let me get this straight. Are you suggesting that it is unhealthy to have a well muscled body? That adding muscle mass is anything but a good thing for overall health? Mind you, I am not talking about body builder type muscle...
No you are wrong again. I didn't suggest anything. A lot of people exercising are only trying to lose weight. To them it isn't a good thing when they gain weight. There are many threads hear on MFP with people freaking out because they aren't losing weight or they are even gaining weight. That can be a side effect of exercise. Not everyone cares about muscle.
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Carlos_421 wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »Sooo.......you're eyeballing portions and guessing the calorie content of your foods and presenting the resulting numbers as evidence for your theory. K.
And sure, even using scales won't give you a perfectly accurate calorie count but it's certainly more accurate than eyeballing your servings and estimating calories based on comparisons with other foods.
Again, I'm not implying that you're not seeing success. It's clear that you are. I'm just saying that your success is not occurring for the reasons you believe and that the statistics you're quoting to support your beliefs are likely highly inaccurate.
And you are making assumptions about my accuracy when you know nothing about me. I've been controlling my diet for years, I know very well exactly what I'm doing. I'm not some newbie crying that I'm not losing weight. Just because something doesn't fit in to your model of the world, doesn't mean it is wrong.
It's not an assumption that eyeballing and guesstimating are less accurate than weighing and precise logging.
And again, I'm not doubting the success you've had with your methods. I'm only trying to explain that what works for you doesn't work for the reasons you think it does.
Unfortunately, you won't listen to facts, science or reason which only makes it ironic that you're accusing other people of being blinded.
You are the one that isn't listening. Modern science is clearly showing different foods have different impacts on health. The concept that all calories are equal doesn't even make sense. Even people that push it put qualifiers on it all the time.
Calorie counting is just an estimate no matter how precise one tries to be. There are so many variables besides the serving size. Logging is a tool for people to get in control to see what they are doing. I already have the counting and control down. I use them when I need to figure out what I'm eating, right now I've got it down pat.
The reason I'm losing weight is simple. I've cut back on refined sugar and replaced those calories with healthy foods. The exercising and experimenting with fasting are for body composition in my case. I'm trying to reduce fat faster.
Each thing I'm doing contributes to the whole in different ways. At this point I'm eating a more comfortable level and still losing weight. The most likely reason is I'm using more of my food and also drawing from my fat.
* IF is providing much more benefits in how I feel and even perform. I don't know if it is helping with the fat lose or not, but I'm sure it isn't hurting. I could use IF to maintain a large calorie deficit if I wanted and maybe I will someday. (Unlikely though, I don't like feeling like crap.)
* Exercise, food choice, etc ... I was doing those before and making progress losing fat but I was gaining about 1kg a year from muscle gain. Cutting back on sugar changed that, now my fat is dropping. Waist from 103 to 88cm in four months is crazy progress.
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This I agree with, especially the bolded...These are all just estimates, even if you use a scale. The way calories are measured isn't even remotely close to how the body metabolizes the food. Tracking calories off of heartrate too is another form of estimation. Additionally the so called 3500 kc / lb of fat is another estimate. Striving for exactness is a waste of time. Anyway I'm eating out a lot right now and I can't easily change that right now. So weighing food isn't really an option.
In regards to the bolded, this is why it is generally a bad idea to make generalizations...I'm also not doing things in isolation, so it is really murky about the value of each part. Here are the current things I'm doing.
* Cut way back of refined sugar - pretty sure that is driving the reduction in visceral fat if nothing else. It took me 2 years to go from 106 cm waistline to 103 cm, after cutting sugar I'm at 88 cm in only 4 months.
* Changing the foods I eat, mostly adding complex carbs, some healthy fats and more protein.
* Trying to run a slight calorie deficit of ~250 kc / day average. At least for now.
* Experimenting with fasting multiple times a week.
* When I eat back calories from fasting I'm choosing fats and protein. I already have enough carbs in breakfast.
* Doing most workouts while in the fasted state.
Anyone one of those things by themselves can help with weight loss.
So exercise is helpful for fat loss then...I'm pretty sure though the fasting helps with fat lose because my workouts are more consistent.
Only if it effected the quality of your workouts. If calories are equal it shouldn't have an effect. I say shouldn't because obviously for some it does. But this goes back to your other true statement, things are not done in isolation so it is very hard to pick out the one thing that worked...It would likely be a wash if I did the same workouts after eating.
In my experience this was probably due to cortisol release. Probably the bodies way of getting us to get up and find some food...At around 15 hours into the fast, I start feeling very good and energetic.
Just to be 100% clear I have never said exercising isn't helpful for fat loss. Exercise though often will cause people to gain weight not lose weight over some periods of time. There is a lot more to weight than just fat.
Additionally many people tend to overeat with exercise. That can lead to at least maintaining fat while building muscle. Exercise with diet control is different than just exercising without paying attention to diet.
Well to that point, if you are losing fat and gaining weight you are gaining muscle, which is a good thing...
Good is subjective, not everyone wants to build muscle. Since you like pointing out others are generalizing, maybe you shouldn't do it yourself.
So let me get this straight. Are you suggesting that it is unhealthy to have a well muscled body? That adding muscle mass is anything but a good thing for overall health? Mind you, I am not talking about body builder type muscle...
No you are wrong again. I didn't suggest anything. A lot of people exercising are only trying to lose weight. To them it isn't a good thing when they gain weight. There are many threads hear on MFP with people freaking out because they aren't losing weight or they are even gaining weight. That can be a side effect of exercise. Not everyone cares about muscle.
Lol!
There are many reasons why someone might gain weight during exercise. Two that come to mind are muscle gain and water retention. People only get upset because they think it's fat gain. When they realize it's water they generally feel better because they realize it is transient. When they find out its muscle they generally become very happy.
Not caring about muscle is a big mistake. Did you bother to read the article I posted? Are you interested in actually learning anything? Has it ever occurred to you that I've been where you are, and have learned and grown beyond it, and am not just talking out of my rear end?4 -
This I agree with, especially the bolded...These are all just estimates, even if you use a scale. The way calories are measured isn't even remotely close to how the body metabolizes the food. Tracking calories off of heartrate too is another form of estimation. Additionally the so called 3500 kc / lb of fat is another estimate. Striving for exactness is a waste of time. Anyway I'm eating out a lot right now and I can't easily change that right now. So weighing food isn't really an option.
In regards to the bolded, this is why it is generally a bad idea to make generalizations...I'm also not doing things in isolation, so it is really murky about the value of each part. Here are the current things I'm doing.
* Cut way back of refined sugar - pretty sure that is driving the reduction in visceral fat if nothing else. It took me 2 years to go from 106 cm waistline to 103 cm, after cutting sugar I'm at 88 cm in only 4 months.
* Changing the foods I eat, mostly adding complex carbs, some healthy fats and more protein.
* Trying to run a slight calorie deficit of ~250 kc / day average. At least for now.
* Experimenting with fasting multiple times a week.
* When I eat back calories from fasting I'm choosing fats and protein. I already have enough carbs in breakfast.
* Doing most workouts while in the fasted state.
Anyone one of those things by themselves can help with weight loss.
So exercise is helpful for fat loss then...I'm pretty sure though the fasting helps with fat lose because my workouts are more consistent.
Only if it effected the quality of your workouts. If calories are equal it shouldn't have an effect. I say shouldn't because obviously for some it does. But this goes back to your other true statement, things are not done in isolation so it is very hard to pick out the one thing that worked...It would likely be a wash if I did the same workouts after eating.
In my experience this was probably due to cortisol release. Probably the bodies way of getting us to get up and find some food...At around 15 hours into the fast, I start feeling very good and energetic.
Just to be 100% clear I have never said exercising isn't helpful for fat loss. Exercise though often will cause people to gain weight not lose weight over some periods of time. There is a lot more to weight than just fat.
Additionally many people tend to overeat with exercise. That can lead to at least maintaining fat while building muscle. Exercise with diet control is different than just exercising without paying attention to diet.
Well to that point, if you are losing fat and gaining weight you are gaining muscle, which is a good thing...
Good is subjective, not everyone wants to build muscle. Since you like pointing out others are generalizing, maybe you shouldn't do it yourself.
So let me get this straight. Are you suggesting that it is unhealthy to have a well muscled body? That adding muscle mass is anything but a good thing for overall health? Mind you, I am not talking about body builder type muscle...
From what i gathet his argument is the all exercise makes people over eat. And that controlling diet is what is required to lose weight.
And from my gatherings he isnt weight training so I doubt there is muscle gain. What confuses me is for someone who talks so mich about metabolism why would you 1) not want to gain muscle since it is directly related to metabolism and 2) recognize that diet alone makes it hard to maintain muscle mass and if there isnt some kind of resistance training done during weight loss that maintaining your metabolism is more difficult.
I never said exercise makes all people overeat. I said a lot of people do use exercise as a reason to eat a lot more and they often do overeat.
As for muscle gain, it sounds like you are saying you only gain muscle by weight training. Wow, that is so wrong, I hope you realize that. Pretty much all forms of exercise build muscle under the right conditions. I went through two years where I was just mostly replacing fat with muscle, but that only got me down to about 25% body fat from over 30% and I gained a modest 2 kg doing that.0 -
This I agree with, especially the bolded...These are all just estimates, even if you use a scale. The way calories are measured isn't even remotely close to how the body metabolizes the food. Tracking calories off of heartrate too is another form of estimation. Additionally the so called 3500 kc / lb of fat is another estimate. Striving for exactness is a waste of time. Anyway I'm eating out a lot right now and I can't easily change that right now. So weighing food isn't really an option.
In regards to the bolded, this is why it is generally a bad idea to make generalizations...I'm also not doing things in isolation, so it is really murky about the value of each part. Here are the current things I'm doing.
* Cut way back of refined sugar - pretty sure that is driving the reduction in visceral fat if nothing else. It took me 2 years to go from 106 cm waistline to 103 cm, after cutting sugar I'm at 88 cm in only 4 months.
* Changing the foods I eat, mostly adding complex carbs, some healthy fats and more protein.
* Trying to run a slight calorie deficit of ~250 kc / day average. At least for now.
* Experimenting with fasting multiple times a week.
* When I eat back calories from fasting I'm choosing fats and protein. I already have enough carbs in breakfast.
* Doing most workouts while in the fasted state.
Anyone one of those things by themselves can help with weight loss.
So exercise is helpful for fat loss then...I'm pretty sure though the fasting helps with fat lose because my workouts are more consistent.
Only if it effected the quality of your workouts. If calories are equal it shouldn't have an effect. I say shouldn't because obviously for some it does. But this goes back to your other true statement, things are not done in isolation so it is very hard to pick out the one thing that worked...It would likely be a wash if I did the same workouts after eating.
In my experience this was probably due to cortisol release. Probably the bodies way of getting us to get up and find some food...At around 15 hours into the fast, I start feeling very good and energetic.
Just to be 100% clear I have never said exercising isn't helpful for fat loss. Exercise though often will cause people to gain weight not lose weight over some periods of time. There is a lot more to weight than just fat.
Additionally many people tend to overeat with exercise. That can lead to at least maintaining fat while building muscle. Exercise with diet control is different than just exercising without paying attention to diet.
Well to that point, if you are losing fat and gaining weight you are gaining muscle, which is a good thing...
Good is subjective, not everyone wants to build muscle. Since you like pointing out others are generalizing, maybe you shouldn't do it yourself.
So let me get this straight. Are you suggesting that it is unhealthy to have a well muscled body? That adding muscle mass is anything but a good thing for overall health? Mind you, I am not talking about body builder type muscle...
No you are wrong again. I didn't suggest anything. A lot of people exercising are only trying to lose weight. To them it isn't a good thing when they gain weight. There are many threads hear on MFP with people freaking out because they aren't losing weight or they are even gaining weight. That can be a side effect of exercise. Not everyone cares about muscle.
Lol!
There are many reasons why someone might gain weight during exercise. Two that come to mind are muscle gain and water retention. People only get upset because they think it's fat gain. When they realize it's water they generally feel better because they realize it is transient. When they find out its muscle they generally become very happy.
Not caring about muscle is a big mistake. Did you bother to read the article I posted? Are you interested in actually learning anything? Has it ever occurred to you that I've been where you are, and have learned and grown beyond it, and am not just talking out of my rear end?
I've seen many people complain about gaining weight from exercise. Not everyone cares about building muscle. You care, I care but there are a lot more people in the world than just us.0 -
This I agree with, especially the bolded...These are all just estimates, even if you use a scale. The way calories are measured isn't even remotely close to how the body metabolizes the food. Tracking calories off of heartrate too is another form of estimation. Additionally the so called 3500 kc / lb of fat is another estimate. Striving for exactness is a waste of time. Anyway I'm eating out a lot right now and I can't easily change that right now. So weighing food isn't really an option.
In regards to the bolded, this is why it is generally a bad idea to make generalizations...I'm also not doing things in isolation, so it is really murky about the value of each part. Here are the current things I'm doing.
* Cut way back of refined sugar - pretty sure that is driving the reduction in visceral fat if nothing else. It took me 2 years to go from 106 cm waistline to 103 cm, after cutting sugar I'm at 88 cm in only 4 months.
* Changing the foods I eat, mostly adding complex carbs, some healthy fats and more protein.
* Trying to run a slight calorie deficit of ~250 kc / day average. At least for now.
* Experimenting with fasting multiple times a week.
* When I eat back calories from fasting I'm choosing fats and protein. I already have enough carbs in breakfast.
* Doing most workouts while in the fasted state.
Anyone one of those things by themselves can help with weight loss.
So exercise is helpful for fat loss then...I'm pretty sure though the fasting helps with fat lose because my workouts are more consistent.
Only if it effected the quality of your workouts. If calories are equal it shouldn't have an effect. I say shouldn't because obviously for some it does. But this goes back to your other true statement, things are not done in isolation so it is very hard to pick out the one thing that worked...It would likely be a wash if I did the same workouts after eating.
In my experience this was probably due to cortisol release. Probably the bodies way of getting us to get up and find some food...At around 15 hours into the fast, I start feeling very good and energetic.
Just to be 100% clear I have never said exercising isn't helpful for fat loss. Exercise though often will cause people to gain weight not lose weight over some periods of time. There is a lot more to weight than just fat.
Additionally many people tend to overeat with exercise. That can lead to at least maintaining fat while building muscle. Exercise with diet control is different than just exercising without paying attention to diet.
Well to that point, if you are losing fat and gaining weight you are gaining muscle, which is a good thing...
Good is subjective, not everyone wants to build muscle. Since you like pointing out others are generalizing, maybe you shouldn't do it yourself.
So let me get this straight. Are you suggesting that it is unhealthy to have a well muscled body? That adding muscle mass is anything but a good thing for overall health? Mind you, I am not talking about body builder type muscle...
No you are wrong again. I didn't suggest anything. A lot of people exercising are only trying to lose weight. To them it isn't a good thing when they gain weight. There are many threads hear on MFP with people freaking out because they aren't losing weight or they are even gaining weight. That can be a side effect of exercise. Not everyone cares about muscle.
Lol!
There are many reasons why someone might gain weight during exercise. Two that come to mind are muscle gain and water retention. People only get upset because they think it's fat gain. When they realize it's water they generally feel better because they realize it is transient. When they find out its muscle they generally become very happy.
Not caring about muscle is a big mistake. Did you bother to read the article I posted? Are you interested in actually learning anything? Has it ever occurred to you that I've been where you are, and have learned and grown beyond it, and am not just talking out of my rear end?
I've seen many people complain about gaining weight from exercise. Not everyone cares about building muscle. You care, I care but there are a lot more people in the world than just us.
Sorry, once again you are incorrect. The people who gain weight from exercise and find out its muscle are pretty often relieved. They complain because they think it's fat.
More often then not, it is usually water retention. Building muscle is not that easy...
I'll ask again. Did you read ANY of the articles I've posted?1 -
queenliz99 wrote: »
This I agree with, especially the bolded...These are all just estimates, even if you use a scale. The way calories are measured isn't even remotely close to how the body metabolizes the food. Tracking calories off of heartrate too is another form of estimation. Additionally the so called 3500 kc / lb of fat is another estimate. Striving for exactness is a waste of time. Anyway I'm eating out a lot right now and I can't easily change that right now. So weighing food isn't really an option.
In regards to the bolded, this is why it is generally a bad idea to make generalizations...I'm also not doing things in isolation, so it is really murky about the value of each part. Here are the current things I'm doing.
* Cut way back of refined sugar - pretty sure that is driving the reduction in visceral fat if nothing else. It took me 2 years to go from 106 cm waistline to 103 cm, after cutting sugar I'm at 88 cm in only 4 months.
* Changing the foods I eat, mostly adding complex carbs, some healthy fats and more protein.
* Trying to run a slight calorie deficit of ~250 kc / day average. At least for now.
* Experimenting with fasting multiple times a week.
* When I eat back calories from fasting I'm choosing fats and protein. I already have enough carbs in breakfast.
* Doing most workouts while in the fasted state.
Anyone one of those things by themselves can help with weight loss.
So exercise is helpful for fat loss then...I'm pretty sure though the fasting helps with fat lose because my workouts are more consistent.
Only if it effected the quality of your workouts. If calories are equal it shouldn't have an effect. I say shouldn't because obviously for some it does. But this goes back to your other true statement, things are not done in isolation so it is very hard to pick out the one thing that worked...It would likely be a wash if I did the same workouts after eating.
In my experience this was probably due to cortisol release. Probably the bodies way of getting us to get up and find some food...At around 15 hours into the fast, I start feeling very good and energetic.
Just to be 100% clear I have never said exercising isn't helpful for fat loss. Exercise though often will cause people to gain weight not lose weight over some periods of time. There is a lot more to weight than just fat.
Additionally many people tend to overeat with exercise. That can lead to at least maintaining fat while building muscle. Exercise with diet control is different than just exercising without paying attention to diet.
Well to that point, if you are losing fat and gaining weight you are gaining muscle, which is a good thing...
Good is subjective, not everyone wants to build muscle. Since you like pointing out others are generalizing, maybe you shouldn't do it yourself.
Confused. Are you arguing to argue? My sixteen year old is like this, too! This is black, no it's white, mom!
No, not confused, it is often the same few people that diss everything yet never add any value to threads.
I think you are confused about the nature of debate!
Had you posted in the Success forum along the lines of "I'm doing IF and enjoying it. Helps with my exercise and I can lose weight without having to weigh all my foods" you would get the approval and congratulations you seem to expect. (Congrats from me by the way, genuinely glad you found something that works for you.)
But this is the Debate forum - where people share knowledge, experience and air different or opposing views.
That's where the value of debate lies.
But if you have a closed mind and reject out of hand any view but your own you learn nothing.
There's been some really good info posted in this thread and I hope others have learned things that benefit them.
You have some very singular beliefs based on very dodgy data which will always be challenged. You are of course entitled to those beliefs but you are not entitled to air them in a public forum without disagreement. If you didn't react with such hostility you probably wouldn't get so much hostility back.7 -
This I agree with, especially the bolded...These are all just estimates, even if you use a scale. The way calories are measured isn't even remotely close to how the body metabolizes the food. Tracking calories off of heartrate too is another form of estimation. Additionally the so called 3500 kc / lb of fat is another estimate. Striving for exactness is a waste of time. Anyway I'm eating out a lot right now and I can't easily change that right now. So weighing food isn't really an option.
In regards to the bolded, this is why it is generally a bad idea to make generalizations...I'm also not doing things in isolation, so it is really murky about the value of each part. Here are the current things I'm doing.
* Cut way back of refined sugar - pretty sure that is driving the reduction in visceral fat if nothing else. It took me 2 years to go from 106 cm waistline to 103 cm, after cutting sugar I'm at 88 cm in only 4 months.
* Changing the foods I eat, mostly adding complex carbs, some healthy fats and more protein.
* Trying to run a slight calorie deficit of ~250 kc / day average. At least for now.
* Experimenting with fasting multiple times a week.
* When I eat back calories from fasting I'm choosing fats and protein. I already have enough carbs in breakfast.
* Doing most workouts while in the fasted state.
Anyone one of those things by themselves can help with weight loss.
So exercise is helpful for fat loss then...I'm pretty sure though the fasting helps with fat lose because my workouts are more consistent.
Only if it effected the quality of your workouts. If calories are equal it shouldn't have an effect. I say shouldn't because obviously for some it does. But this goes back to your other true statement, things are not done in isolation so it is very hard to pick out the one thing that worked...It would likely be a wash if I did the same workouts after eating.
In my experience this was probably due to cortisol release. Probably the bodies way of getting us to get up and find some food...At around 15 hours into the fast, I start feeling very good and energetic.
Just to be 100% clear I have never said exercising isn't helpful for fat loss. Exercise though often will cause people to gain weight not lose weight over some periods of time. There is a lot more to weight than just fat.
Additionally many people tend to overeat with exercise. That can lead to at least maintaining fat while building muscle. Exercise with diet control is different than just exercising without paying attention to diet.
Well to that point, if you are losing fat and gaining weight you are gaining muscle, which is a good thing...
Good is subjective, not everyone wants to build muscle. Since you like pointing out others are generalizing, maybe you shouldn't do it yourself.
So let me get this straight. Are you suggesting that it is unhealthy to have a well muscled body? That adding muscle mass is anything but a good thing for overall health? Mind you, I am not talking about body builder type muscle...
No you are wrong again. I didn't suggest anything. A lot of people exercising are only trying to lose weight. To them it isn't a good thing when they gain weight. There are many threads hear on MFP with people freaking out because they aren't losing weight or they are even gaining weight. That can be a side effect of exercise. Not everyone cares about muscle.
Lol!
There are many reasons why someone might gain weight during exercise. Two that come to mind are muscle gain and water retention. People only get upset because they think it's fat gain. When they realize it's water they generally feel better because they realize it is transient. When they find out its muscle they generally become very happy.
Not caring about muscle is a big mistake. Did you bother to read the article I posted? Are you interested in actually learning anything? Has it ever occurred to you that I've been where you are, and have learned and grown beyond it, and am not just talking out of my rear end?
I've seen many people complain about gaining weight from exercise. Not everyone cares about building muscle. You care, I care but there are a lot more people in the world than just us.
Sorry, once again you are incorrect. The people who gain weight from exercise and find out its muscle are pretty often relieved. They complain because they think it's fat.
More often then not, it is usually water retention. Building muscle is not that easy...
I'll ask again. Did you read ANY of the articles I've posted?
You have posted anything I haven't already read. Additionally it is pretty clear you don't much about people. Most don't even try to exercise. http://www.cbsnews.com/news/cdc-80-percent-of-american-adults-dont-get-recommended-exercise/0 -
This I agree with, especially the bolded...These are all just estimates, even if you use a scale. The way calories are measured isn't even remotely close to how the body metabolizes the food. Tracking calories off of heartrate too is another form of estimation. Additionally the so called 3500 kc / lb of fat is another estimate. Striving for exactness is a waste of time. Anyway I'm eating out a lot right now and I can't easily change that right now. So weighing food isn't really an option.
In regards to the bolded, this is why it is generally a bad idea to make generalizations...I'm also not doing things in isolation, so it is really murky about the value of each part. Here are the current things I'm doing.
* Cut way back of refined sugar - pretty sure that is driving the reduction in visceral fat if nothing else. It took me 2 years to go from 106 cm waistline to 103 cm, after cutting sugar I'm at 88 cm in only 4 months.
* Changing the foods I eat, mostly adding complex carbs, some healthy fats and more protein.
* Trying to run a slight calorie deficit of ~250 kc / day average. At least for now.
* Experimenting with fasting multiple times a week.
* When I eat back calories from fasting I'm choosing fats and protein. I already have enough carbs in breakfast.
* Doing most workouts while in the fasted state.
Anyone one of those things by themselves can help with weight loss.
So exercise is helpful for fat loss then...I'm pretty sure though the fasting helps with fat lose because my workouts are more consistent.
Only if it effected the quality of your workouts. If calories are equal it shouldn't have an effect. I say shouldn't because obviously for some it does. But this goes back to your other true statement, things are not done in isolation so it is very hard to pick out the one thing that worked...It would likely be a wash if I did the same workouts after eating.
In my experience this was probably due to cortisol release. Probably the bodies way of getting us to get up and find some food...At around 15 hours into the fast, I start feeling very good and energetic.
Just to be 100% clear I have never said exercising isn't helpful for fat loss. Exercise though often will cause people to gain weight not lose weight over some periods of time. There is a lot more to weight than just fat.
Additionally many people tend to overeat with exercise. That can lead to at least maintaining fat while building muscle. Exercise with diet control is different than just exercising without paying attention to diet.
Well to that point, if you are losing fat and gaining weight you are gaining muscle, which is a good thing...
Good is subjective, not everyone wants to build muscle. Since you like pointing out others are generalizing, maybe you shouldn't do it yourself.
So let me get this straight. Are you suggesting that it is unhealthy to have a well muscled body? That adding muscle mass is anything but a good thing for overall health? Mind you, I am not talking about body builder type muscle...
No you are wrong again. I didn't suggest anything. A lot of people exercising are only trying to lose weight. To them it isn't a good thing when they gain weight. There are many threads hear on MFP with people freaking out because they aren't losing weight or they are even gaining weight. That can be a side effect of exercise. Not everyone cares about muscle.
Lol!
There are many reasons why someone might gain weight during exercise. Two that come to mind are muscle gain and water retention. People only get upset because they think it's fat gain. When they realize it's water they generally feel better because they realize it is transient. When they find out its muscle they generally become very happy.
Not caring about muscle is a big mistake. Did you bother to read the article I posted? Are you interested in actually learning anything? Has it ever occurred to you that I've been where you are, and have learned and grown beyond it, and am not just talking out of my rear end?
I've seen many people complain about gaining weight from exercise. Not everyone cares about building muscle. You care, I care but there are a lot more people in the world than just us.
Sorry, once again you are incorrect. The people who gain weight from exercise and find out its muscle are pretty often relieved. They complain because they think it's fat.
More often then not, it is usually water retention. Building muscle is not that easy...
I'll ask again. Did you read ANY of the articles I've posted?
You have posted anything I haven't already read. Additionally it is pretty clear you don't much about people. Most don't even try to exercise. http://www.cbsnews.com/news/cdc-80-percent-of-american-adults-dont-get-recommended-exercise/
So you read them and what? Not convinced?
The article in the health benefits of muscle mass? Nothing?
Your link is an article that says most people don't get the recommended amount of exercise they should. It has nothing to do with what we have been debating (and I use the term loosely).
Honestly, you really do need to proof your responses before hitting send. Conversing with you is like conversing with an adolescent...0 -
queenliz99 wrote: »
This I agree with, especially the bolded...These are all just estimates, even if you use a scale. The way calories are measured isn't even remotely close to how the body metabolizes the food. Tracking calories off of heartrate too is another form of estimation. Additionally the so called 3500 kc / lb of fat is another estimate. Striving for exactness is a waste of time. Anyway I'm eating out a lot right now and I can't easily change that right now. So weighing food isn't really an option.
In regards to the bolded, this is why it is generally a bad idea to make generalizations...I'm also not doing things in isolation, so it is really murky about the value of each part. Here are the current things I'm doing.
* Cut way back of refined sugar - pretty sure that is driving the reduction in visceral fat if nothing else. It took me 2 years to go from 106 cm waistline to 103 cm, after cutting sugar I'm at 88 cm in only 4 months.
* Changing the foods I eat, mostly adding complex carbs, some healthy fats and more protein.
* Trying to run a slight calorie deficit of ~250 kc / day average. At least for now.
* Experimenting with fasting multiple times a week.
* When I eat back calories from fasting I'm choosing fats and protein. I already have enough carbs in breakfast.
* Doing most workouts while in the fasted state.
Anyone one of those things by themselves can help with weight loss.
So exercise is helpful for fat loss then...I'm pretty sure though the fasting helps with fat lose because my workouts are more consistent.
Only if it effected the quality of your workouts. If calories are equal it shouldn't have an effect. I say shouldn't because obviously for some it does. But this goes back to your other true statement, things are not done in isolation so it is very hard to pick out the one thing that worked...It would likely be a wash if I did the same workouts after eating.
In my experience this was probably due to cortisol release. Probably the bodies way of getting us to get up and find some food...At around 15 hours into the fast, I start feeling very good and energetic.
Just to be 100% clear I have never said exercising isn't helpful for fat loss. Exercise though often will cause people to gain weight not lose weight over some periods of time. There is a lot more to weight than just fat.
Additionally many people tend to overeat with exercise. That can lead to at least maintaining fat while building muscle. Exercise with diet control is different than just exercising without paying attention to diet.
Well to that point, if you are losing fat and gaining weight you are gaining muscle, which is a good thing...
Good is subjective, not everyone wants to build muscle. Since you like pointing out others are generalizing, maybe you shouldn't do it yourself.
Confused. Are you arguing to argue? My sixteen year old is like this, too! This is black, no it's white, mom!
No, not confused, it is often the same few people that diss everything yet never add any value to threads.
I think you are confused about the nature of debate!
Had you posted in the Success forum along the lines of "I'm doing IF and enjoying it. Helps with my exercise and I can lose weight without having to weigh all my foods" you would get the approval and congratulations you seem to expect. (Congrats from me by the way, genuinely glad you found something that works for you.)
But this is the Debate forum - where people share knowledge, experience and air different or opposing views.
That's where the value of debate lies.
But if you have a closed mind and reject out of hand any view but your own you learn nothing.
There's been some really good info posted in this thread and I hope others have learned things that benefit them.
You have some very singular beliefs based on very dodgy data which will always be challenged. You are of course entitled to those beliefs but you are not entitled to air them in a public forum without disagreement. If you didn't react with such hostility you probably wouldn't get so much hostility back.
As always you jump a day late and a dollar short.
There are a few posters that don't debate just slam because they think they have it all figured out. They should be teaching the multitude of researchers, scientists and doctors working on figuring it out if they are so smart. The fact is they are just repeating things like parrots.
Slamming? Really? Grow up, put on your big boy pants and get over it...0 -
Carlos_421 wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »Sooo.......you're eyeballing portions and guessing the calorie content of your foods and presenting the resulting numbers as evidence for your theory. K.
And sure, even using scales won't give you a perfectly accurate calorie count but it's certainly more accurate than eyeballing your servings and estimating calories based on comparisons with other foods.
Again, I'm not implying that you're not seeing success. It's clear that you are. I'm just saying that your success is not occurring for the reasons you believe and that the statistics you're quoting to support your beliefs are likely highly inaccurate.
And you are making assumptions about my accuracy when you know nothing about me. I've been controlling my diet for years, I know very well exactly what I'm doing. I'm not some newbie crying that I'm not losing weight. Just because something doesn't fit in to your model of the world, doesn't mean it is wrong.
It's not an assumption that eyeballing and guesstimating are less accurate than weighing and precise logging.
And again, I'm not doubting the success you've had with your methods. I'm only trying to explain that what works for you doesn't work for the reasons you think it does.
Unfortunately, you won't listen to facts, science or reason which only makes it ironic that you're accusing other people of being blinded.
1) You are the one that isn't listening. 2) Modern science is clearly showing different foods have different impacts on health. 3) The concept that all calories are equal doesn't even make sense. Even people that push it put qualifiers on it all the time.
4) Calorie counting is just an estimate no matter how precise one tries to be. There are so many variables besides the serving size. Logging is a tool for people to get in control to see what they are doing. 5) I already have the counting and control down. I use them when I need to figure out what I'm eating, right now I've got it down pat.
6) The reason I'm losing weight is simple. 7) I've cut back on refined sugar and replaced those calories with healthy foods. The exercising and experimenting with fasting are for body composition in my case. I'm trying to reduce fat faster.
Each thing I'm doing contributes to the whole in different ways. 8) At this point I'm eating a more comfortable level and still losing weight. 9) The most likely reason is I'm using more of my food and also drawing from my fat.
10) * IF is providing much more benefits in how I feel and even perform. 11) I don't know if it is helping with the fat lose or not, but I'm sure it isn't hurting. 12) I could use IF to maintain a large calorie deficit if I wanted and maybe I will someday. (Unlikely though, I don't like feeling like crap.)
13) * Exercise, food choice, etc ... I was doing those before and making progress losing fat but I was gaining about 1kg a year from muscle gain. 14) Cutting back on sugar changed that, now my fat is dropping. 15) Waist from 103 to 88cm in four months is crazy progress.
1) It's ironic that so many people have tried to present you with facts and explain to you why your methods are working yet you reject the science presented to you in favor of clinging to your own theories (which are based on a faulty understanding of the science behind them) and accuse us of not listening. We are listening. We're just shaking our heads because you refuse to let go of your own theories long enough to learn anything.
2) No one has debated whether or not different foods have different impacts on health. Where has anyone claimed otherwise? Some foods have more calories than others. Some have more protein. Some have more fiber. Some have more micronutrients. Some have more saturated fat while others have more mono and polyunsaturated fats. Some keep people feeling full while others leave people feeling unsatisfied.
Who has contested this and what does it have to do with IF?
3) Considering that a Calorie is a unit of measurement for the amount of potential energy in the food (the amount of energy your body would derive from the food), it's ridiculous to even insinuate that one Calorie is different from another. It is an amount of energy. And when it comes to weight loss, the balance of energy is the determining factor (the laws of physics demand it). If you take in more energy than you burn, it must be stored for later (as fat) because you can't just excrete energy (unless you're Cyclops from the X Men). If your intake of energy is insufficient to support bodily function and movement, stored energy must be used in order support what the body is doing (you can't take a breath without your lungs using energy and the energy has to come from somewhere) and fat loss occurs.
This concept holds true regardless of the source or timing of one's energy intake. It's energy balance, plain and simple.
Proper intake of macro and micronutrients for optimal health and wellbeing is an entirely different discussion and has no bearing on the energy equation (mass and energy cannot be created or destroyed, only converted).
4) Yes, it is only an estimate. We've established that and I didn't disagree (who's not listening again?). That still doesn't change the fact that eyeballing portions is a far less accurate means of estimating than weighing. Presenting your n=1 and arguing it's validity based on your estimation of intake rather than on real measurements is going to result in thoughtful people pointing out that your numbers may not be what they think they are. Sorry if that offends you since you've been doing this for such a long time and know just what you're doing but it it what it is.
5) That's great. I'm glad it's working for you.
6) The reason you're losing weight is indeed simple. You are consuming fewer calories than you are burning. The fact that IF makes this easier for you to achieve is awesome.
7) It's worth pointing out that if cutting out sugar and replacing with other food is the only change you've made and your weight loss has accelerated due to this change, you are clearly not replacing all the calories that you were getting from the sugar. You may be replacing the sugar with as much food as before or even more food in terms of volume but the calorie count of the replacement foods are clearly lower than that of the sugary foods you're replacing. Otherwise, you're body would still have as much energy as before and wouldn't be depleting fat stores (see item 3 above).
8) That's awesome!! I'm glad that IF works for your preferences and lifestyle, allowing you to have larger meals with less frequency while maintaining a calorie deficit.
9) More likely is that you're more comfortable eating larger portions with less frequency than smaller portions throughout the day and that the fasting allows you to maintain a deficit (because fat loss doesn't occur without a deficit. Ever).
10) Great!! If you feel good on IF then you go for it!
11) If you're unsure, then why have you continued to argue vehemently that it caused so many different biological benefits that lead to increased fat loss?
But seriously, IF or not doesn't matter for fat loss. It matters for adherence to a calorie deficit which it obviously helps you with and that's great.
12) Why increase your deficit if you're already seeing the results you want?
13) How is gaining muscle while losing fat a bad thing?
14) So you're no longer gaining muscle and you were already losing fat before? I'd over my thoughts on how something like that could potentially happen but I'm sure you'd say I'm just not listening because it's clearly the sugar and fasting.
15) That's great! I hope your success continues!!6 -
Carlos_421 wrote: »1) It's ironic that so many people have tried to present you with facts and explain to you why your methods are working yet you reject the science presented to you in favor of clinging to your own theories (which are based on a faulty understanding of the science behind them) and accuse us of not listening. We are listening. We're just shaking our heads because you refuse to let go of your own theories long enough to learn anything.
We call this mis-representing the data...
1 -
Carlos_421 wrote: »1) It's ironic that so many people have tried to present you with facts and explain to you why your methods are working yet you reject the science presented to you in favor of clinging to your own theories (which are based on a faulty understanding of the science behind them) and accuse us of not listening. We are listening. We're just shaking our heads because you refuse to let go of your own theories long enough to learn anything.
We call this mis-representing the data...
The data should sue.1 -
Carlos_421 wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »1) It's ironic that so many people have tried to present you with facts and explain to you why your methods are working yet you reject the science presented to you in favor of clinging to your own theories (which are based on a faulty understanding of the science behind them) and accuse us of not listening. We are listening. We're just shaking our heads because you refuse to let go of your own theories long enough to learn anything.
We call this mis-representing the data...
The data should sue.
I actually take that back. He is not misrepresenting, rather he is misunderstanding the data. Misrepresenting would assume he understands what is happening and is trying to portray it in a way that furthers his agenda. IMO, he has no idea why it's working, which is pretty common...2 -
You can't fight faith with facts...2
-
This I agree with, especially the bolded...These are all just estimates, even if you use a scale. The way calories are measured isn't even remotely close to how the body metabolizes the food. Tracking calories off of heartrate too is another form of estimation. Additionally the so called 3500 kc / lb of fat is another estimate. Striving for exactness is a waste of time. Anyway I'm eating out a lot right now and I can't easily change that right now. So weighing food isn't really an option.
In regards to the bolded, this is why it is generally a bad idea to make generalizations...I'm also not doing things in isolation, so it is really murky about the value of each part. Here are the current things I'm doing.
* Cut way back of refined sugar - pretty sure that is driving the reduction in visceral fat if nothing else. It took me 2 years to go from 106 cm waistline to 103 cm, after cutting sugar I'm at 88 cm in only 4 months.
* Changing the foods I eat, mostly adding complex carbs, some healthy fats and more protein.
* Trying to run a slight calorie deficit of ~250 kc / day average. At least for now.
* Experimenting with fasting multiple times a week.
* When I eat back calories from fasting I'm choosing fats and protein. I already have enough carbs in breakfast.
* Doing most workouts while in the fasted state.
Anyone one of those things by themselves can help with weight loss.
So exercise is helpful for fat loss then...I'm pretty sure though the fasting helps with fat lose because my workouts are more consistent.
Only if it effected the quality of your workouts. If calories are equal it shouldn't have an effect. I say shouldn't because obviously for some it does. But this goes back to your other true statement, things are not done in isolation so it is very hard to pick out the one thing that worked...It would likely be a wash if I did the same workouts after eating.
In my experience this was probably due to cortisol release. Probably the bodies way of getting us to get up and find some food...At around 15 hours into the fast, I start feeling very good and energetic.
Just to be 100% clear I have never said exercising isn't helpful for fat loss. Exercise though often will cause people to gain weight not lose weight over some periods of time. There is a lot more to weight than just fat.
Additionally many people tend to overeat with exercise. That can lead to at least maintaining fat while building muscle. Exercise with diet control is different than just exercising without paying attention to diet.
Well to that point, if you are losing fat and gaining weight you are gaining muscle, which is a good thing...
Good is subjective, not everyone wants to build muscle. Since you like pointing out others are generalizing, maybe you shouldn't do it yourself.
So let me get this straight. Are you suggesting that it is unhealthy to have a well muscled body? That adding muscle mass is anything but a good thing for overall health? Mind you, I am not talking about body builder type muscle...
From what i gathet his argument is the all exercise makes people over eat. And that controlling diet is what is required to lose weight.
And from my gatherings he isnt weight training so I doubt there is muscle gain. What confuses me is for someone who talks so mich about metabolism why would you 1) not want to gain muscle since it is directly related to metabolism and 2) recognize that diet alone makes it hard to maintain muscle mass and if there isnt some kind of resistance training done during weight loss that maintaining your metabolism is more difficult.
I never said exercise makes all people overeat. I said a lot of people do use exercise as a reason to eat a lot more and they often do overeat.
As for muscle gain, it sounds like you are saying you only gain muscle by weight training. Wow, that is so wrong, I hope you realize that. Pretty much all forms of exercise build muscle under the right conditions. I went through two years where I was just mostly replacing fat with muscle, but that only got me down to about 25% body fat from over 30% and I gained a modest 2 kg doing that.
First i did not say weight training.... i said resistance training.. there is a difference. You can gain muscle with body weight. You are absolutely wrong that all forms of exercise gain muscle. There are plenty of studies comparing resistance based training vs cardio; end results showing losses in lbm with cardio only vs resistance.2 -
I am in a facebook group of over 20, 000 people who intermittent fast. The overwhelming consensus from their experience is that IF windows have zero to with the actual fat/weight you drop. It is only a tool for easier caloric deficit management. I will take the experience of 20, 000 any day. You are eating in a deficit if you are dropping weight period. Its basic science and you aren't special. Just because you have no actual awareness of your caloric intake/output doesn't mean you aren't in a deficit.0
-
I've done fasting & I certainly loss weight fairly quickly! Only problem was losing weight too fast results in saggy skin... Better to do it the slow healthy way. Cardio & strength training keeps the skin tight:))0
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