All calories may not be equal

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Replies

  • gonetothedogs19
    gonetothedogs19 Posts: 325 Member
    edited August 2016
    Mentali wrote: »
    gonetothedogs19 wrote: »
    Just a thought on my previous post.

    If there are newbies who want to start counting calories, it should be strongly suggested to them, at least for the first month or so, that they only purchase foods where there can be no possible way of screwing up the calorie count.

    A can of tuna fish, two eggs, pre-packaged frozen burgers on a bun, a can of soup, an ice cream bar (as opposed to scooping ice cream from a container), a pre-packaged burrito, etc. Just about anything where you can "leave your brain at home" when counting.

    I have never read ANYBODY suggest this incredible simplification of the process.

    This shows a fundamental misunderstanding of how to count calories though, and frankly throws doubt onto the many points you try to make against CICO, since you've revealed that you don't really understand it.

    Do you truly think that every single egg is the exactly same weight, down to the grams? Have you looked into the labeling laws that allow mislabeling on caloric content within a certain range? Have you ever weighed a prepackaged item to see how different the weight actually is from what's mentioned on the package? You seem to think cereal should be measured in cups - do you honestly think that the same amount of cereal settles into a cup measure the exact same way every time, thus creating an exact caloric measurement?

    The most basic, fundamental part of accurate calorie counting is "weigh all solids, measure all liquids". The reason people don't start with "eat prepackaged things" is because that's a fundamentally incorrect understanding of how this all works.

    You are more likely to mess up weighing and measuring food than using nutrition labels.

    I Googled eggs, and the web sites state they contain anywhere from 70 to 78 calories. So just if you eat two hard-boiled eggs you simply enter 150 calories into your diary. How hard is that?

    Don't get a slice of pizza at a pizza parlor. Buy frozen pizza because you know what the calories are.

  • gonetothedogs19
    gonetothedogs19 Posts: 325 Member
    edited August 2016
    Mentali wrote: »
    gonetothedogs19 wrote: »
    bethannien wrote: »
    gonetothedogs19 wrote: »
    hjlourenshj wrote: »
    gonetothedogs19 wrote: »
    Bottom line - if you are counting calories, weighing, measuring and logging religiously, and cannot lose weight (a common complaint on this site), try this approach. Why not? And why would you continue doing something that is not working?
    't

    Its just impossible to not lose weight when you are in a deficit. So the common complaint on this site is 100% the cause of mistakes in counting. Its that simple. Don't spin it towards something else

    How hard is it to count calories? One ounce of cereal with skim milk (the amount is stated on the cereal box) for breakfast. Two cans of tuna fish and whatever the portion of mayonnaise is on the label for lunch. 100-calorie pre-packaged snack. A couple of pre-made burgers on a bun for dinner with a salad and a low-cal dressing.

    This is not exactly rocket science.


    It's not rocket science but if people are using the 1 cup or 1/4 cup suggestions for the measurement instead of weighing it, they're almost definitely eating more than they think. For example. I have some granola I mix into my Greek yogurt. The Greek yogurt says a serving is 1 cup (227 g) and the granola says a serving is 1/4 cup (27g). That's what the packaging gives as a serving size.

    I put my 1/2 cup on my scale to eat half a serving and I filled it about 2/3 full before I reached 113 g. If I had filled it to the top, I'd be eating more than I thought. And when I weighed the granola, 1/4 cup was 1.5 servings.

    So it may not be rocket science but if people are using measuring cups and wondering why they aren't losing weight, it's not what they're eating. It's how much.

    This is exactly what most newbies SHOULD NOT be doing.

    I am eating a Chobani yogurt right now. It contains 140 calories. Not 150 calories and not 130 caloires. There is nothing to weigh and nothing to measure. Forget about weighing granola. It just makes life difficult

    And Chobani has some product where you mix in things (one of them may be granola) into the yogurt. That may contain 200 calories. Not 210 calories and not 190 calories.

    I say KISS (with affection) to all newbies - Keep It Simple Stupid.

    Seriously, have you actually weighed the yogurt before determining it has 140 calories, not 139 or 141?

    Are you being serious?

    Mentali wrote: »
    gonetothedogs19 wrote: »
    bethannien wrote: »
    gonetothedogs19 wrote: »
    hjlourenshj wrote: »
    gonetothedogs19 wrote: »
    Bottom line - if you are counting calories, weighing, measuring and logging religiously, and cannot lose weight (a common complaint on this site), try this approach. Why not? And why would you continue doing something that is not working?
    't

    Its just impossible to not lose weight when you are in a deficit. So the common complaint on this site is 100% the cause of mistakes in counting. Its that simple. Don't spin it towards something else

    How hard is it to count calories? One ounce of cereal with skim milk (the amount is stated on the cereal box) for breakfast. Two cans of tuna fish and whatever the portion of mayonnaise is on the label for lunch. 100-calorie pre-packaged snack. A couple of pre-made burgers on a bun for dinner with a salad and a low-cal dressing.

    This is not exactly rocket science.


    It's not rocket science but if people are using the 1 cup or 1/4 cup suggestions for the measurement instead of weighing it, they're almost definitely eating more than they think. For example. I have some granola I mix into my Greek yogurt. The Greek yogurt says a serving is 1 cup (227 g) and the granola says a serving is 1/4 cup (27g). That's what the packaging gives as a serving size.

    I put my 1/2 cup on my scale to eat half a serving and I filled it about 2/3 full before I reached 113 g. If I had filled it to the top, I'd be eating more than I thought. And when I weighed the granola, 1/4 cup was 1.5 servings.

    So it may not be rocket science but if people are using measuring cups and wondering why they aren't losing weight, it's not what they're eating. It's how much.

    This is exactly what most newbies SHOULD NOT be doing.

    I am eating a Chobani yogurt right now. It contains 140 calories. Not 150 calories and not 130 caloires. There is nothing to weigh and nothing to measure. Forget about weighing granola. It just makes life difficult

    And Chobani has some product where you mix in things (one of them may be granola) into the yogurt. That may contain 200 calories. Not 210 calories and not 190 calories.

    I say KISS (with affection) to all newbies - Keep It Simple Stupid.

    THIS IS NOT TRUE.

    Repeat: THIS IS NOT TRUE. Your yogurt is not guaranteed to contain 140 calories. In fact, in the US it can be up to 20% off ("the label is considered to be out of compliance if the nutrient content of a composite of the product is greater than 20% above the value declared on the label", Title 21 of the Code of Federal Regulations (21 CFR 101.9(g))). That yogurt might be 112 calories....or, more likely, that yogurt may be 168 calories. Now expand that to a frozen dinner, one that's, say....600 calories. That could actually be up to 720. If you eat all your calories from prepackaged food, without weighing the portions, and eat up to your deficit, then you will very likely be consuming more calories than you think, cutting into or stalling your weight loss.

    Seriously, have you actually weighed the yogurt before determining it has 140 calories, not 139 or 141?

    You can't be serious about the calories in the yogurt.

    OK, so here's what you do. The label says 140 calories. To be safe, add 10%, and now it's 154 calories. Problem solved. Or, you can make a breakfast with four or five ingredients where you have to weight and measure, weigh and measure. I would advise sticking with the yogurt.

  • gonetothedogs19
    gonetothedogs19 Posts: 325 Member
    ndj1979 wrote: »
    all calories are the same for an energy standpoint; however, they are not nutritionally the same.

    therefore, 200 calories of doughnuts = 200 calories of almonds, becuase they provide the same unit of energy; however, they do not have the same nutritional profile.

    calorie deficit for weigth loss
    macro/micro attention and structured exercise regimen for body comp goals..

    this should end this thread, but it will not.

    According to Dr. Lustig, a professor of nutrition at Harvard, you are incorrect.

  • gonetothedogs19
    gonetothedogs19 Posts: 325 Member
    ndj1979 wrote: »
    gonetothedogs19 wrote: »
    ndj1979 wrote: »
    all calories are the same for an energy standpoint; however, they are not nutritionally the same.

    therefore, 200 calories of doughnuts = 200 calories of almonds, becuase they provide the same unit of energy; however, they do not have the same nutritional profile.

    calorie deficit for weigth loss
    macro/micro attention and structured exercise regimen for body comp goals..

    this should end this thread, but it will not.

    According to Dr. Lustig, a professor of nutrition at Harvard, you are incorrect.

    Lustig has been proven wrong time and time again ..

    http://www.alanaragonblog.com/2010/01/29/the-bitter-truth-about-fructose-alarmism/
    https://junkscience.com/2013/07/food-nanny-rebellion-yale-doc-says-lustig-sugar-is-toxic-claim-not-rational/

    A 2010 article on fructose. That is ancient history.
  • gonetothedogs19
    gonetothedogs19 Posts: 325 Member
    SusanMFindlay wrote: »
    gonetothedogs19 wrote: »
    Just a thought on my previous post.

    If there are newbies who want to start counting calories, it should be strongly suggested to them, at least for the first month or so, that they only purchase foods where there can be no possible way of screwing up the calorie count.

    A can of tuna fish, two eggs, pre-packaged frozen burgers on a bun, a can of soup, an ice cream bar (as opposed to scooping ice cream from a container), a pre-packaged burrito, etc. Just about anything where you can "leave your brain at home" when counting.

    I have never read ANYBODY suggest this incredible simplification of the process.

    You just eliminated the entire produce section and condemned the person to a junk food diet.

    It's not difficult to buy a food scale, put a plate (or bowl) on it, hit zero and add your food.

    Most people who start diets (including those who try to count calories) fail miserably.

    So if you believe in CICO, why wouldn't you advise a newbie for maybe the 1st month, to do it the easy way - only eat things that you are certain of the calorie count (and to make a prior poster happy, add 10% to what the label says).

    So let's say it works. You've done CICO the easy way for one month with no measuring and weighing, and you've lost 5 pounds. Now, you are a believe in CICO! Now, it is time to learn weighing and measuring, and eating better foods.

    I don't understand it. This webpage is a CICO fraternity/sorority. If you want more people doing CICO, my advise is the best advise. It's hard enough to try to lose weight using any method, and now you are asking people to weigh and measure and weigh and measure when they start out. Forget about that for the first month.
  • dbanks80
    dbanks80 Posts: 3,685 Member
    Vegplotter wrote: »
    I don't think you'll get many takers here. We've all been conned by such " diet without dieting " books. (Generally written by stick insects with a
    a rather partial grasp of medical knowledge.)
    I'm firmly of the view that most of us need the discipline of calorie counting and recording our weight, especially those of us who've become overweight. It rather implies that we don't recognise satiety and that we've forgotten what hunger feels like.
    If you are one of the exceptions, then good luck with your experiment.
    And by the way all calories ARE equal - but some fill you up for longer. The issue is that we need to eat the filling ones and the not so filling in order to enjoy a balanced diet.
    Whatever you do, don't cut out the basic food groups which are: Protein, carbs, veg, dairy and fruit.

    Why would someone flag this?

  • Mentali
    Mentali Posts: 352 Member
    gonetothedogs19 wrote: »
    SusanMFindlay wrote: »
    gonetothedogs19 wrote: »
    Just a thought on my previous post.

    If there are newbies who want to start counting calories, it should be strongly suggested to them, at least for the first month or so, that they only purchase foods where there can be no possible way of screwing up the calorie count.

    A can of tuna fish, two eggs, pre-packaged frozen burgers on a bun, a can of soup, an ice cream bar (as opposed to scooping ice cream from a container), a pre-packaged burrito, etc. Just about anything where you can "leave your brain at home" when counting.

    I have never read ANYBODY suggest this incredible simplification of the process.

    You just eliminated the entire produce section and condemned the person to a junk food diet.

    It's not difficult to buy a food scale, put a plate (or bowl) on it, hit zero and add your food.

    Most people who start diets (including those who try to count calories) fail miserably.

    So if you believe in CICO, why wouldn't you advise a newbie for maybe the 1st month, to do it the easy way - only eat things that you are certain of the calorie count (and to make a prior poster happy, add 10% to what the label says).

    So let's say it works. You've done CICO the easy way for one month with no measuring and weighing, and you've lost 5 pounds. Now, you are a believe in CICO! Now, it is time to learn weighing and measuring, and eating better foods.

    I don't understand it. This webpage is a CICO fraternity/sorority. If you want more people doing CICO, my advise is the best advise. It's hard enough to try to lose weight using any method, and now you are asking people to weigh and measure and weigh and measure when they start out. Forget about that for the first month.

    Honest question - what do you think people who weigh their food do to weigh their food from day to day? What is, in your mind, the way they cook/eat on a daily basis? Preferably with a sample day rather than generic "weigh and measure and weigh and measure". Because I'm fairly certain what you imagine isn't what's actually happening.
  • stevencloser
    stevencloser Posts: 8,911 Member
    People have lost careers over things they said decades ago before. Even things they don't actually stand behind anymore unlike Lustig.
  • lemurcat12
    lemurcat12 Posts: 30,886 Member
    gonetothedogs19 wrote: »
    Mentali wrote: »
    gonetothedogs19 wrote: »
    Just a thought on my previous post.

    If there are newbies who want to start counting calories, it should be strongly suggested to them, at least for the first month or so, that they only purchase foods where there can be no possible way of screwing up the calorie count.

    A can of tuna fish, two eggs, pre-packaged frozen burgers on a bun, a can of soup, an ice cream bar (as opposed to scooping ice cream from a container), a pre-packaged burrito, etc. Just about anything where you can "leave your brain at home" when counting.

    I have never read ANYBODY suggest this incredible simplification of the process.

    This shows a fundamental misunderstanding of how to count calories though, and frankly throws doubt onto the many points you try to make against CICO, since you've revealed that you don't really understand it.

    Do you truly think that every single egg is the exactly same weight, down to the grams? Have you looked into the labeling laws that allow mislabeling on caloric content within a certain range? Have you ever weighed a prepackaged item to see how different the weight actually is from what's mentioned on the package? You seem to think cereal should be measured in cups - do you honestly think that the same amount of cereal settles into a cup measure the exact same way every time, thus creating an exact caloric measurement?

    The most basic, fundamental part of accurate calorie counting is "weigh all solids, measure all liquids". The reason people don't start with "eat prepackaged things" is because that's a fundamentally incorrect understanding of how this all works.

    You are more likely to mess up weighing and measuring food than using nutrition labels.

    If you are minimally competent neither is difficult.

    However, eating mostly packaged stuff with labels would be difficult and unsatisfying for me, and more expensive and less nutritious, on average, than how I like to eat. So it would not be sustainable.

    Drastically changing how you eat might be difficult for many people -- making gradual changes to reduce calories and (if necessary) to make the diet more nutritious overall will often be a good approach.
  • SusanMFindlay
    SusanMFindlay Posts: 1,804 Member
    edited August 2016
    gonetothedogs19 wrote: »
    Most people who start diets (including those who try to count calories) fail miserably.

    So if you believe in CICO, why wouldn't you advise a newbie for maybe the 1st month, to do it the easy way - only eat things that you are certain of the calorie count (and to make a prior poster happy, add 10% to what the label says).

    So let's say it works. You've done CICO the easy way for one month with no measuring and weighing, and you've lost 5 pounds. Now, you are a believe in CICO! Now, it is time to learn weighing and measuring, and eating better foods.

    I don't understand it. This webpage is a CICO fraternity/sorority. If you want more people doing CICO, my advise is the best advise. It's hard enough to try to lose weight using any method, and now you are asking people to weigh and measure and weigh and measure when they start out. Forget about that for the first month.

    I disagree that your way is the "easy way". Most people fail on diets because they're hungry - not because weighing was too much work. An all-processed-food diet will leave you hungry because you simply won't be getting the volume that most heavier people need to feel full.

    When I first started calorie counting, the first thing I did was buy a food scale and I immediately started weighing my food. (And I'll admit that I'm a scientist so weighing is completely trivial to me - as it should be for anyone who took a decent home ec or science class in school. Typing everything into the computer was *way* more time consuming than the weighing part.) The main changes that happened - and the reason I was successful at losing the weight - and the reason I continued with calorie counting - were mental. It was an awareness of how many calories were in different foods, so I started eating more fruit and veg because they were less calorie dense. None of that would/could have happened on an all processed food diet. Instead, I would have been hungry all the time and would have given up.
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    This content has been removed.
  • Mentali
    Mentali Posts: 352 Member
    BillMcKay1 wrote: »
    Mentali wrote: »
    gonetothedogs19 wrote: »
    Mentali wrote: »
    gonetothedogs19 wrote: »
    bethannien wrote: »
    gonetothedogs19 wrote: »
    hjlourenshj wrote: »
    gonetothedogs19 wrote: »
    Bottom line - if you are counting calories, weighing, measuring and logging religiously, and cannot lose weight (a common complaint on this site), try this approach. Why not? And why would you continue doing something that is not working?
    't

    Its just impossible to not lose weight when you are in a deficit. So the common complaint on this site is 100% the cause of mistakes in counting. Its that simple. Don't spin it towards something else

    How hard is it to count calories? One ounce of cereal with skim milk (the amount is stated on the cereal box) for breakfast. Two cans of tuna fish and whatever the portion of mayonnaise is on the label for lunch. 100-calorie pre-packaged snack. A couple of pre-made burgers on a bun for dinner with a salad and a low-cal dressing.

    This is not exactly rocket science.


    It's not rocket science but if people are using the 1 cup or 1/4 cup suggestions for the measurement instead of weighing it, they're almost definitely eating more than they think. For example. I have some granola I mix into my Greek yogurt. The Greek yogurt says a serving is 1 cup (227 g) and the granola says a serving is 1/4 cup (27g). That's what the packaging gives as a serving size.

    I put my 1/2 cup on my scale to eat half a serving and I filled it about 2/3 full before I reached 113 g. If I had filled it to the top, I'd be eating more than I thought. And when I weighed the granola, 1/4 cup was 1.5 servings.

    So it may not be rocket science but if people are using measuring cups and wondering why they aren't losing weight, it's not what they're eating. It's how much.

    This is exactly what most newbies SHOULD NOT be doing.

    I am eating a Chobani yogurt right now. It contains 140 calories. Not 150 calories and not 130 caloires. There is nothing to weigh and nothing to measure. Forget about weighing granola. It just makes life difficult

    And Chobani has some product where you mix in things (one of them may be granola) into the yogurt. That may contain 200 calories. Not 210 calories and not 190 calories.

    I say KISS (with affection) to all newbies - Keep It Simple Stupid.

    Seriously, have you actually weighed the yogurt before determining it has 140 calories, not 139 or 141?

    Are you being serious?

    Mentali wrote: »
    gonetothedogs19 wrote: »
    bethannien wrote: »
    gonetothedogs19 wrote: »
    hjlourenshj wrote: »
    gonetothedogs19 wrote: »
    Bottom line - if you are counting calories, weighing, measuring and logging religiously, and cannot lose weight (a common complaint on this site), try this approach. Why not? And why would you continue doing something that is not working?
    't

    Its just impossible to not lose weight when you are in a deficit. So the common complaint on this site is 100% the cause of mistakes in counting. Its that simple. Don't spin it towards something else

    How hard is it to count calories? One ounce of cereal with skim milk (the amount is stated on the cereal box) for breakfast. Two cans of tuna fish and whatever the portion of mayonnaise is on the label for lunch. 100-calorie pre-packaged snack. A couple of pre-made burgers on a bun for dinner with a salad and a low-cal dressing.

    This is not exactly rocket science.


    It's not rocket science but if people are using the 1 cup or 1/4 cup suggestions for the measurement instead of weighing it, they're almost definitely eating more than they think. For example. I have some granola I mix into my Greek yogurt. The Greek yogurt says a serving is 1 cup (227 g) and the granola says a serving is 1/4 cup (27g). That's what the packaging gives as a serving size.

    I put my 1/2 cup on my scale to eat half a serving and I filled it about 2/3 full before I reached 113 g. If I had filled it to the top, I'd be eating more than I thought. And when I weighed the granola, 1/4 cup was 1.5 servings.

    So it may not be rocket science but if people are using measuring cups and wondering why they aren't losing weight, it's not what they're eating. It's how much.

    This is exactly what most newbies SHOULD NOT be doing.

    I am eating a Chobani yogurt right now. It contains 140 calories. Not 150 calories and not 130 caloires. There is nothing to weigh and nothing to measure. Forget about weighing granola. It just makes life difficult

    And Chobani has some product where you mix in things (one of them may be granola) into the yogurt. That may contain 200 calories. Not 210 calories and not 190 calories.

    I say KISS (with affection) to all newbies - Keep It Simple Stupid.

    THIS IS NOT TRUE.

    Repeat: THIS IS NOT TRUE. Your yogurt is not guaranteed to contain 140 calories. In fact, in the US it can be up to 20% off ("the label is considered to be out of compliance if the nutrient content of a composite of the product is greater than 20% above the value declared on the label", Title 21 of the Code of Federal Regulations (21 CFR 101.9(g))). That yogurt might be 112 calories....or, more likely, that yogurt may be 168 calories. Now expand that to a frozen dinner, one that's, say....600 calories. That could actually be up to 720. If you eat all your calories from prepackaged food, without weighing the portions, and eat up to your deficit, then you will very likely be consuming more calories than you think, cutting into or stalling your weight loss.

    Seriously, have you actually weighed the yogurt before determining it has 140 calories, not 139 or 141?

    You can't be serious about the calories in the yogurt.

    OK, so here's what you do. The label says 140 calories. To be safe, add 10%, and now it's 154 calories. Problem solved. Or, you can make a breakfast with four or five ingredients where you have to weight and measure, weigh and measure. I would advise sticking with the yogurt.

    So now you're backing out of your "Not 150 calories" claim?

    10% or 20% matters. Especially when it's on every item you eat, all day, and especially if you don't have much wiggle room in your calories. Not to mention your other mistakes are not governed by the FDA requirements, so the consequences of them could be catastrophic to a carefully planned weight loss system.

    For a yogurt, it's 28 more calories. For everything else, it's much more. The only method to be accurate in your calorie counting, which is necessary, is to make sure your food is in the portions that you think they are, which cannot be done by trusting labels to be accurate since we know they're not.

    Although I have to be honest - I don't think I've ever seen someone arguing both "what kind of calories you consume matter, they have to be good calories" and also "people should just be eating all of their food prepackaged!" It's an interesting, if contradictory, set of opinions!

    To be fair though, that up to 20% compliance zone is true even if you are weighing your yogurt. The nutrition label on a my greek yogurt (and most)t container lists it's nutrient/calorie profile by the gram and cup. 120cal per 1/2c or 175g.

    Now I weigh out my 175g to get my 120 cal, but that 20% potential margin of error for calories doesn't disappear just because I weighed it out. Their have the same 20% margin in the calories for the weighted measure as well.

    Yeah definitely, you'd have to go by grams and decide if it's worth the extra calories, if you want all the yogurt, etc. after weighing for sure. Weighing isn't a method to keep in a deficit, just a method to make sure that if you want a deficit you have the tools to get there! :)
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    edited August 2016
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