To build muscle how much weight do I have to be lifting?
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rainbowbow wrote: »Diminish returns is something you're gonna have to deal with training natty. It's something like 24lbs lean mass 1st year, 12lbs lean mass 2nd year, 6 third, and then 1-3lbs a year after all of that. Eventually you hit a point your natural test levels won't let you pass no matter how pristine your diet ends up being. 4 major lifts, and at least 2 accessory lifts will get you where you want to go eventually. Rich Piana has a good video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTO3k4n98ag
for the love of god... do not listen to rich piana. LOL
It's one of rare times he's not straight out full of bull.0 -
rainbowbow wrote: »Diminish returns is something you're gonna have to deal with training natty. It's something like 24lbs lean mass 1st year, 12lbs lean mass 2nd year, 6 third, and then 1-3lbs a year after all of that. Eventually you hit a point your natural test levels won't let you pass no matter how pristine your diet ends up being. 4 major lifts, and at least 2 accessory lifts will get you where you want to go eventually. Rich Piana has a good video
for the love of god... do not listen to rich piana. LOL
but yes, you can read more here about how much you can gain according to a few different methods. All agree about the statistics above.
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/whats-my-genetic-muscular-potential.html/
Agree that video is completely useless for this thread. I'll add that the OP is nowhere near where a conversation regarding steroids should even enter into the picture. He needs to focus on the basics, get that strength base built, and then worry about things like going for 20-30 set squat sets, steroids, and the other things that may enter into advanced lifting programs. The OP is going to risk legal trouble for steroids when he's benching 120?0 -
sunnybeaches105 wrote: »rainbowbow wrote: »Diminish returns is something you're gonna have to deal with training natty. It's something like 24lbs lean mass 1st year, 12lbs lean mass 2nd year, 6 third, and then 1-3lbs a year after all of that. Eventually you hit a point your natural test levels won't let you pass no matter how pristine your diet ends up being. 4 major lifts, and at least 2 accessory lifts will get you where you want to go eventually. Rich Piana has a good video
for the love of god... do not listen to rich piana. LOL
but yes, you can read more here about how much you can gain according to a few different methods. All agree about the statistics above.
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/whats-my-genetic-muscular-potential.html/
Agree that video is completely useless for this thread. I'll add that the OP is nowhere near where a conversation regarding steroids should even enter into the picture. He needs to focus on the basics, get that strength base built, and then worry about things like going for 20-30 set squat sets, steroids, and the other things that may enter into advanced lifting programs. The OP is going to risk legal trouble for steroids when he's benching 120?
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sunnybeaches105 wrote: »rainbowbow wrote: »Diminish returns is something you're gonna have to deal with training natty. It's something like 24lbs lean mass 1st year, 12lbs lean mass 2nd year, 6 third, and then 1-3lbs a year after all of that. Eventually you hit a point your natural test levels won't let you pass no matter how pristine your diet ends up being. 4 major lifts, and at least 2 accessory lifts will get you where you want to go eventually. Rich Piana has a good video
for the love of god... do not listen to rich piana. LOL
but yes, you can read more here about how much you can gain according to a few different methods. All agree about the statistics above.
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/whats-my-genetic-muscular-potential.html/
Agree that video is completely useless for this thread. I'll add that the OP is nowhere near where a conversation regarding steroids should even enter into the picture. He needs to focus on the basics, get that strength base built, and then worry about things like going for 20-30 set squat sets, steroids, and the other things that may enter into advanced lifting programs. The OP is going to risk legal trouble for steroids when he's benching 120?
I'm referencing the expectations of natty training, not encouraging steroids. OP seems worried he isn't gaining a lot of muscle quickly, and honestly for the most part you won't it's gradual.0 -
rainbowbow wrote: »TavistockToad wrote: »Are you eating in a surplus?
Gaining muscle requires progressive overload, not being able to lift a particular amount.
i think this is absolutely necessary.
NOT TO MENTION- You are currently training with the incorrect volume and rep ranges. For someone of your size, you seem to be pulling some pretty decent(okay) weight. it's not surprising though, because you've been training in the "maximal strength" ranges. Something that a lot of people don't know, being strong is not the same as looking good. Or another way of saying this, training for strength and training for aesthetics is totally different.
If you were my client and you came to me with this issue, this is what i'd do:
-firstly, confirming you're happy with your current level of body fat and want to focus solely on building muscle-
1.) ensure that you're eating in a small caloric surplus. since you're a newbie, you can expect to gain MAX about 2 pounds of muscle per month.I would have you eat roughly 250 extra calories a day.
2.) ensure that you're getting adequate carbohydrates and protein.
3.) You would train 4 days per week max, maybe even 3. Something i like to do with my clients is an every-other day training schedule. So one week it's 3 days, the next week it's four days.
4.) When you're in the gym, i'd probably put you on an upper/lower body split. this way you have ample time for rest and recovery in between workouts.
5.) You'd be lifting in the "hypertrophy" range: 6-12 reps, 3-5 sets, with about 60 seconds rest. Mostly compound lifts, with some accessory as needed and only towards the end of the workout.
6.) We'd focus on proper recovery from training: i.e. stretching, foam rolling, good sleep, plenty of water, making sure to eat enough, etc.
7.) Each 6 weeks or so we'd switch things up with the exercises (to account for adaptations)
I am fairly certain that if you employ the above you should start seeing some pretty great results in the next 6 months or so. It will be difficult at first to see some real "gains" mostly because of your current level of body fat, but, keep at it and you can cut later.
p.s. here's a guide to acute variables of training.
What do the numbers next to the tempo in this chart mean? 4/21, 2/0/2?0 -
rainbowbow wrote: »TavistockToad wrote: »Are you eating in a surplus?
Gaining muscle requires progressive overload, not being able to lift a particular amount.
i think this is absolutely necessary.
NOT TO MENTION- You are currently training with the incorrect volume and rep ranges. For someone of your size, you seem to be pulling some pretty decent(okay) weight. it's not surprising though, because you've been training in the "maximal strength" ranges. Something that a lot of people don't know, being strong is not the same as looking good. Or another way of saying this, training for strength and training for aesthetics is totally different.
If you were my client and you came to me with this issue, this is what i'd do:
-firstly, confirming you're happy with your current level of body fat and want to focus solely on building muscle-
1.) ensure that you're eating in a small caloric surplus. since you're a newbie, you can expect to gain MAX about 2 pounds of muscle per month.I would have you eat roughly 250 extra calories a day.
2.) ensure that you're getting adequate carbohydrates and protein.
3.) You would train 4 days per week max, maybe even 3. Something i like to do with my clients is an every-other day training schedule. So one week it's 3 days, the next week it's four days.
4.) When you're in the gym, i'd probably put you on an upper/lower body split. this way you have ample time for rest and recovery in between workouts.
5.) You'd be lifting in the "hypertrophy" range: 6-12 reps, 3-5 sets, with about 60 seconds rest. Mostly compound lifts, with some accessory as needed and only towards the end of the workout.
6.) We'd focus on proper recovery from training: i.e. stretching, foam rolling, good sleep, plenty of water, making sure to eat enough, etc.
7.) Each 6 weeks or so we'd switch things up with the exercises (to account for adaptations)
I am fairly certain that if you employ the above you should start seeing some pretty great results in the next 6 months or so. It will be difficult at first to see some real "gains" mostly because of your current level of body fat, but, keep at it and you can cut later.
p.s. here's a guide to acute variables of training.
What do the numbers next to the tempo in this chart mean? 4/21, 2/0/2?
it's the tempo in seconds.
i think they made a mistake with 4/21. It should be (4/2/1) and (2/0/2) respectively.
So, with maximal strength and power the tempo is as fast/explosive as possible.
But for hypertrophy the eccentric and concentric phase of the lift is equal, with no pauses, and moderate speed. (2 eccentric, 0 isometric, 2 concentric)
For endurance and stabilization the eccentric phase is slow, the isometric phase is moderate, and the concentric phase is explosive. (4 eccentric, 2 isometric, 1 concentric)0 -
It all starts with your goals.
If you want hypertrophy then pick a hypertrophy routine, if you want strength pick a strength routine. But of course neither is all one or the other.
But I agree with @sunnybeaches105 - your goal should be to build a strength base first. If you are consistently adding weight to the bar then it's working.
Personally I think "where am I going wrong" is expecting rapid results. Unless you are young, gifted or taking naughty supplements that's not really how it works. You also don't have a low BF percentage so any growth is going to be hard to see. When you are leaner small amounts of muscle growth are far more apparent.
Based on your pictures you definitely shouldn't go for a calorie surplus unless power and maximum amount of muscle built are absolute and only priorities. From on your comments that's not the case.0 -
It all starts with your goals.
If you want hypertrophy then pick a hypertrophy routine, if you want strength pick a strength routine. But of course neither is all one or the other.
But I agree with @sunnybeaches105 - your goal should be to build a strength base first. If you are consistently adding weight to the bar then it's working.
Personally I think "where am I going wrong" is expecting rapid results. Unless you are young, gifted or taking naughty supplements that's not really how it works. You also don't have a low BF percentage so any growth is going to be hard to see. When you are leaner small amounts of muscle growth are far more apparent.
Based on your pictures you definitely shouldn't go for a calorie surplus unless power and maximum amount of muscle built are absolute and only priorities. From on your comments that's not the case.
Curious how common are these naughty supplements? Is everyone in the gym taking them? I have no intention of doing so, I've got a dodgy ticker and it wouldn't be the smartest thing to do, I won't even take a pre workout containing caffeine as it doesn't agree with the old ticker.0 -
sunnybeaches105 wrote: »rainbowbow wrote: »Diminish returns is something you're gonna have to deal with training natty. It's something like 24lbs lean mass 1st year, 12lbs lean mass 2nd year, 6 third, and then 1-3lbs a year after all of that. Eventually you hit a point your natural test levels won't let you pass no matter how pristine your diet ends up being. 4 major lifts, and at least 2 accessory lifts will get you where you want to go eventually. Rich Piana has a good video
for the love of god... do not listen to rich piana. LOL
but yes, you can read more here about how much you can gain according to a few different methods. All agree about the statistics above.
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/whats-my-genetic-muscular-potential.html/
Agree that video is completely useless for this thread. I'll add that the OP is nowhere near where a conversation regarding steroids should even enter into the picture. He needs to focus on the basics, get that strength base built, and then worry about things like going for 20-30 set squat sets, steroids, and the other things that may enter into advanced lifting programs. The OP is going to risk legal trouble for steroids when he's benching 120?
I'm referencing the expectations of natty training, not encouraging steroids. OP seems worried he isn't gaining a lot of muscle quickly, and honestly for the most part you won't it's gradual.
I see your point, but you opened a can a worms in a thread where they aren't even remotely relevant because the OP is nowhere near his genetic limit. My worry is that you say "steroids" and OP thinks he needs them. His last post is exhibit 1.
OP - you can grow a heck of a lot without them
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Generally speaking I think you're not far off as is and the issue could be one of patience/perception.
Basically the things I would be looking at if you were my client would be as follows:
a) Programming. Within this I'd like to see total training volume across the week and see that you're getting stronger in the core movements. I'd like to see at least 2/week frequency on each body-part so that's either a full body program, an upper/lower done 4/week, or some hybrid approach. You're already doing most of this - but it's possible that you need additional training volume.
b) Calorie and protein intake. I wouldn't advise bulking based on the information you provided. I would keep your intake either at a slight deficit or at maintenance. I would probably push your protein intake to the high end of generally accepted ranges for resistance trained athletes.
There's a large variance in individual response to training and it's likely genetic. There's also a fair amount of difference between volume needs and how well you can recover from a given amount of volume.
It's possible that you need additional training volume but I wouldn't do this by changing rep ranges in the main lifts significantly because that's not likely to produce as good of results with strength accumulation.
For hypertrophy I'd likely prefer you to keep at least some low rep range work to drive strength adaptations and you could either get fancy with it by training in multiple rep ranges across the week or keep it simple by just adding in some accessory work to achieve higher training volumes per muscle group.
The latter is simpler for someone who doesn't nerd out on programming.
Cliffs: You MIGHT just need to wait longer. You MIGHT benefit by adding some accessory volume. Provided you are recovering from training and you are still able to make progress on the main lifts, it's probably the right idea. You MIGHT need to address this through nutrient mediated means.
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dave_in_ni wrote: »It all starts with your goals.
If you want hypertrophy then pick a hypertrophy routine, if you want strength pick a strength routine. But of course neither is all one or the other.
But I agree with @sunnybeaches105 - your goal should be to build a strength base first. If you are consistently adding weight to the bar then it's working.
Personally I think "where am I going wrong" is expecting rapid results. Unless you are young, gifted or taking naughty supplements that's not really how it works. You also don't have a low BF percentage so any growth is going to be hard to see. When you are leaner small amounts of muscle growth are far more apparent.
Based on your pictures you definitely shouldn't go for a calorie surplus unless power and maximum amount of muscle built are absolute and only priorities. From on your comments that's not the case.
Curious how common are these naughty supplements? Is everyone in the gym taking them? I have no intention of doing so, I've got a dodgy ticker and it wouldn't be the smartest thing to do, I won't even take a pre workout containing caffeine as it doesn't agree with the old ticker.
Personally never been in the slightest interest in taking them so it's not something I have experience of.
The problem an be that the use of them can skew advice and people's perception of what is possible/normal/achievable.
The old fashioned "dirty bulk" came in to allow steroid users to make maximum gains in minimum time for example.0 -
Weight lifted is only relative to you. If you're at maintenance your muscle built will be minimal. Even at a surplus the most you can hope for is .5lbs of muscle per week. Aim for a 250 calorie a day surplus to minimize fat. And check back in in 3-6 months1
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dave_in_ni wrote: »To be honest I am not sure where I am going wrong, yes I shouldn't compare myself to others but its so obvious that I am doing something wrong. How much weight do I have to be lifting to build muscle?
As I have said before I started lifting in January and also my diet, lost 60lbs or so but being on a diet I only got so far before I plateaued. So start of the summer I stopped cutting and went to maintenance. The strength definitely went up but sadly no muscle built.
An example of what I am lifting at the moment is
OHP = 100LBS X 5 REPS X 3 SETS
BP = 120LBS X 5 X 3
SQUAT = 185LBS X 5 X 3
DL = 185LBS X 5 X 3
Once I complete a set I add weight the next time so I keep increasing my weights. What I'm doing at the moment isn't working,
I work out 5 times per week and below is todays workout just so you know what I'm doing.
Barbell Squat 5 x 8
Lunges 5 x 3
Standing Calf Raise
Ab circuit: Sit up, Leg Raise, Leg Pull In
And here is me this morning, Not much to show after almost 9 months lifting. http://imgur.com/a/3NcH0
You may see better growth with more repetitions per set or more sets (volume). Taking a longer rest period between sets may be necessary to get those extra reps.
I might try the following at a heavy weight you can manage:- superset your barbell squats with box jumps (body weight or vested) 4 sets of 10 reps
- Add weights (farmer's carries, overheads...) to your lunges 4x10 (each side)
- Standing calf raises while waiting for your microwave, while filling your water bottle...
- Plank, hanging leg raise, rotations and kettlebell swings (core)
The core work can be added to your lunges for a good circuit. The supersets and circuits may help the cut.2 -
Here is something that baffles me. No point starting another thread so will post in here. I came across this on a friends facebook.
This guy went on a cut same time as me, I lost more weight but he looks slimmer, I was also working out 5-6 times per week, this guy 3 times.
http://imgur.com/a/65iTi he started at 15 stone 5 lbs, I started at 16 stone 2 lbs
http://imgur.com/a/txijF He is now 13 stone 6 lbs, I am 12 stone 4 lbs
How does this happen? This isn't the first time I've seen similar, fat overweight guys who convert the fat to muscle where as I just got smaller, built no muscle and have more or less the same build.
If you compare my pic now http://imgur.com/a/3NcH0 to this guy, he looks slimmer than me and I am 16 lbs ligher than him.0 -
dave_in_ni wrote: »Here is something that baffles me. No point starting another thread so will post in here. I came across this on a friends facebook.
This guy went on a cut same time as me, I lost more weight but he looks slimmer, I was also working out 5-6 times per week, this guy 3 times.
http://imgur.com/a/65iTi he started at 15 stone 5 lbs, I started at 16 stone 2 lbs
http://imgur.com/a/txijF He is now 13 stone 6 lbs, I am 12 stone 4 lbs
How does this happen? This isn't the first time I've seen similar, fat overweight guys who convert the fat to muscle where as I just got smaller, built no muscle and have more or less the same build.
If you compare my pic now http://imgur.com/a/3NcH0 to this guy, he looks slimmer than me and I am 16 lbs ligher than him.
Comparison is the thief of joy.
That being said, why not ask him about his routine and nutrition. If you're not getting results it's probably because you're not consistent in one or both.
That being said, you also need to make sure your expectations are reasonable?0 -
dave_in_ni wrote: »Here is something that baffles me. No point starting another thread so will post in here. I came across this on a friends facebook.
This guy went on a cut same time as me, I lost more weight but he looks slimmer, I was also working out 5-6 times per week, this guy 3 times.
http://imgur.com/a/65iTi he started at 15 stone 5 lbs, I started at 16 stone 2 lbs
http://imgur.com/a/txijF He is now 13 stone 6 lbs, I am 12 stone 4 lbs
How does this happen? This isn't the first time I've seen similar, fat overweight guys who convert the fat to muscle where as I just got smaller, built no muscle and have more or less the same build.
If you compare my pic now http://imgur.com/a/3NcH0 to this guy, he looks slimmer than me and I am 16 lbs ligher than him.
a) Superior genetics.
b) Superior training routine.
c) Superior nutrition.
If he's on a well-designed workout program and you're spending your time in the gym doing random exercises and a nonsensical bodypart split, it's not at all inconceivable that he could have far better results. It's not how often you to go the gym or how long you spend in there; it's what you do while you're in there. That's why it's not a good idea for most people to design their own workout routines - because they don't have the faintest idea of what they're doing or why they're doing it (or why they should/shouldn't be doing what they're doing).
Also, you apparently cut at a very steep deficit, so there's a chance that you lost a lot more lean body mass than somebody cutting at a more reasonable deficit.0 -
dave_in_ni wrote: »Here is something that baffles me. No point starting another thread so will post in here. I came across this on a friends facebook.
This guy went on a cut same time as me, I lost more weight but he looks slimmer, I was also working out 5-6 times per week, this guy 3 times.
http://imgur.com/a/65iTi he started at 15 stone 5 lbs, I started at 16 stone 2 lbs
http://imgur.com/a/txijF He is now 13 stone 6 lbs, I am 12 stone 4 lbs
How does this happen? This isn't the first time I've seen similar, fat overweight guys who convert the fat to muscle where as I just got smaller, built no muscle and have more or less the same build.
If you compare my pic now http://imgur.com/a/3NcH0 to this guy, he looks slimmer than me and I am 16 lbs ligher than him.
a) Superior genetics.
b) Superior training routine.
c) Superior nutrition.
If he's on a well-designed workout program and you're spending your time in the gym doing random exercises and a nonsensical bodypart split, it's not at all inconceivable that he could have far better results. It's not how often you to go the gym or how long you spend in there; it's what you do while you're in there. That's why it's not a good idea for most people to design their own workout routines - because they don't have the faintest idea of what they're doing or why they're doing it (or why they should/shouldn't be doing what they're doing).
Also, you apparently cut at a very steep deficit, so there's a chance that you lost a lot more lean body mass than somebody cutting at a more reasonable deficit.
Sorry but I've always followed a program, bigger leaner stronger by Mike Matthews, I was also doing strong lifts at a time as well.
Genetics may well play a part, my father is lighter than me and still over weight. At my lightest I was 10.5 stone when I was 19, would you believe I was still fat so I don't believe more cutting as suggested will help my problem, though in saying that I started cutting again this week.
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dave_in_ni wrote: »dave_in_ni wrote: »Here is something that baffles me. No point starting another thread so will post in here. I came across this on a friends facebook.
This guy went on a cut same time as me, I lost more weight but he looks slimmer, I was also working out 5-6 times per week, this guy 3 times.
http://imgur.com/a/65iTi he started at 15 stone 5 lbs, I started at 16 stone 2 lbs
http://imgur.com/a/txijF He is now 13 stone 6 lbs, I am 12 stone 4 lbs
How does this happen? This isn't the first time I've seen similar, fat overweight guys who convert the fat to muscle where as I just got smaller, built no muscle and have more or less the same build.
If you compare my pic now http://imgur.com/a/3NcH0 to this guy, he looks slimmer than me and I am 16 lbs ligher than him.
a) Superior genetics.
b) Superior training routine.
c) Superior nutrition.
If he's on a well-designed workout program and you're spending your time in the gym doing random exercises and a nonsensical bodypart split, it's not at all inconceivable that he could have far better results. It's not how often you to go the gym or how long you spend in there; it's what you do while you're in there. That's why it's not a good idea for most people to design their own workout routines - because they don't have the faintest idea of what they're doing or why they're doing it (or why they should/shouldn't be doing what they're doing).
Also, you apparently cut at a very steep deficit, so there's a chance that you lost a lot more lean body mass than somebody cutting at a more reasonable deficit.
Sorry but I've always followed a program, bigger leaner stronger by Mike Matthews, I was also doing strong lifts at a time as well.
Genetics may well play a part, my father is lighter than me and still over weight. At my lightest I was 10.5 stone when I was 19, would you believe I was still fat so I don't believe more cutting as suggested will help my problem, though in saying that I started cutting again this week.
didn't you cut with a massive deficit last time? are you doing that again?0 -
1500 per day roughlyTavistockToad wrote: »dave_in_ni wrote: »dave_in_ni wrote: »Here is something that baffles me. No point starting another thread so will post in here. I came across this on a friends facebook.
This guy went on a cut same time as me, I lost more weight but he looks slimmer, I was also working out 5-6 times per week, this guy 3 times.
http://imgur.com/a/65iTi he started at 15 stone 5 lbs, I started at 16 stone 2 lbs
http://imgur.com/a/txijF He is now 13 stone 6 lbs, I am 12 stone 4 lbs
How does this happen? This isn't the first time I've seen similar, fat overweight guys who convert the fat to muscle where as I just got smaller, built no muscle and have more or less the same build.
If you compare my pic now http://imgur.com/a/3NcH0 to this guy, he looks slimmer than me and I am 16 lbs ligher than him.
a) Superior genetics.
b) Superior training routine.
c) Superior nutrition.
If he's on a well-designed workout program and you're spending your time in the gym doing random exercises and a nonsensical bodypart split, it's not at all inconceivable that he could have far better results. It's not how often you to go the gym or how long you spend in there; it's what you do while you're in there. That's why it's not a good idea for most people to design their own workout routines - because they don't have the faintest idea of what they're doing or why they're doing it (or why they should/shouldn't be doing what they're doing).
Also, you apparently cut at a very steep deficit, so there's a chance that you lost a lot more lean body mass than somebody cutting at a more reasonable deficit.
Sorry but I've always followed a program, bigger leaner stronger by Mike Matthews, I was also doing strong lifts at a time as well.
Genetics may well play a part, my father is lighter than me and still over weight. At my lightest I was 10.5 stone when I was 19, would you believe I was still fat so I don't believe more cutting as suggested will help my problem, though in saying that I started cutting again this week.
didn't you cut with a massive deficit last time? are you doing that again?
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dave_in_ni wrote: »Here is something that baffles me. No point starting another thread so will post in here. I came across this on a friends facebook.
This guy went on a cut same time as me, I lost more weight but he looks slimmer, I was also working out 5-6 times per week, this guy 3 times.
http://imgur.com/a/65iTi he started at 15 stone 5 lbs, I started at 16 stone 2 lbs
http://imgur.com/a/txijF He is now 13 stone 6 lbs, I am 12 stone 4 lbs
How does this happen? This isn't the first time I've seen similar, fat overweight guys who convert the fat to muscle where as I just got smaller, built no muscle and have more or less the same build.
If you compare my pic now http://imgur.com/a/3NcH0 to this guy, he looks slimmer than me and I am 16 lbs ligher than him.
I think i mentioned this in my other post, but... you're lifting with the wrong frequency, rep ranges, and volume. You're lifting too often per week which doesn't allow for proper adaptations to be made. You're eating a poor number of calories. You're older and have less testosterone. etc. etc. etc.
I could go on.3
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