To build muscle how much weight do I have to be lifting?
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He lost 27 lbs. You lost lost 54 in the same amount of time. For the umpteenth time, your decision to cut with a very steep deficit because you were impatient caused you to get where you are today. You were warned it would happen in your threads starting months ago and sure enough, it did. I'm not sure why you continue to ask essentially the same thing over and over and over. The answer will not change.
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dave_in_ni wrote: »
1500 per day roughlyTavistockToad wrote: »dave_in_ni wrote: »dave_in_ni wrote: »Here is something that baffles me. No point starting another thread so will post in here. I came across this on a friends facebook.
This guy went on a cut same time as me, I lost more weight but he looks slimmer, I was also working out 5-6 times per week, this guy 3 times.
http://imgur.com/a/65iTi he started at 15 stone 5 lbs, I started at 16 stone 2 lbs
http://imgur.com/a/txijF He is now 13 stone 6 lbs, I am 12 stone 4 lbs
How does this happen? This isn't the first time I've seen similar, fat overweight guys who convert the fat to muscle where as I just got smaller, built no muscle and have more or less the same build.
If you compare my pic now http://imgur.com/a/3NcH0 to this guy, he looks slimmer than me and I am 16 lbs ligher than him.
a) Superior genetics.
b) Superior training routine.
c) Superior nutrition.
If he's on a well-designed workout program and you're spending your time in the gym doing random exercises and a nonsensical bodypart split, it's not at all inconceivable that he could have far better results. It's not how often you to go the gym or how long you spend in there; it's what you do while you're in there. That's why it's not a good idea for most people to design their own workout routines - because they don't have the faintest idea of what they're doing or why they're doing it (or why they should/shouldn't be doing what they're doing).
Also, you apparently cut at a very steep deficit, so there's a chance that you lost a lot more lean body mass than somebody cutting at a more reasonable deficit.
Sorry but I've always followed a program, bigger leaner stronger by Mike Matthews, I was also doing strong lifts at a time as well.
Genetics may well play a part, my father is lighter than me and still over weight. At my lightest I was 10.5 stone when I was 19, would you believe I was still fat so I don't believe more cutting as suggested will help my problem, though in saying that I started cutting again this week.
didn't you cut with a massive deficit last time? are you doing that again?
and you realise that the body can only metabolize a certain amount of fat, after which it uses muscle, so you're encouraging your body to burn muscle if you cut so steeply... so any gains you may have made are lost as soon as you cut.
a deficit of 250-500 cals per day is sufficient.1 -
If you look at my weight loss scale it will show I'm at maintaining all summer and what happened my build? Damn all, no muscle built. I'm not convinced weight loss is the way to go, I think I need some muscle on my frame first and the only way to do that it seems is a slight surplus0
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CUT TO SPOOKY SKELETON AND THEN BUILD UP
Dude it's been hashed out. Your training and cut were bad. Either gain some weight for some muscle or continue the terrible forced march you started and get down to like 12% BF and slowly build up (it's always slow bud). You have conflicting goals and they don't mix in the extremes you want.3 -
TavistockToad wrote: »and you realise that the body can only metabolize a certain amount of fat, after which it uses muscle, so you're encouraging your body to burn muscle if you cut so steeply... so any gains you may have made are lost as soon as you cut.
a deficit of 250-500 cals per day is sufficient.
@TavistockToad
(Genuinely) interested in learning a bit more about this. Can you point me in the direction of some sources.
Thx0 -
TavistockToad wrote: »and you realise that the body can only metabolize a certain amount of fat, after which it uses muscle, so you're encouraging your body to burn muscle if you cut so steeply... so any gains you may have made are lost as soon as you cut.
a deficit of 250-500 cals per day is sufficient.
@TavistockToad
(Genuinely) interested in learning a bit more about this. Can you point me in the direction of some sources.
Thx
I don't have any research papers or anything, no.
But if someone on MFP said it, it must be true.0 -
TavistockToad wrote: »and you realise that the body can only metabolize a certain amount of fat, after which it uses muscle, so you're encouraging your body to burn muscle if you cut so steeply... so any gains you may have made are lost as soon as you cut.
a deficit of 250-500 cals per day is sufficient.
@TavistockToad
(Genuinely) interested in learning a bit more about this. Can you point me in the direction of some sources.
Thx
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/156156151 -
TavistockToad wrote: »and you realise that the body can only metabolize a certain amount of fat, after which it uses muscle, so you're encouraging your body to burn muscle if you cut so steeply... so any gains you may have made are lost as soon as you cut.
a deficit of 250-500 cals per day is sufficient.
@TavistockToad
(Genuinely) interested in learning a bit more about this. Can you point me in the direction of some sources.
Thx
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15615615
:flowerforyou:0 -
dave_in_ni wrote: »
1500 per day roughlyTavistockToad wrote: »dave_in_ni wrote: »dave_in_ni wrote: »Here is something that baffles me. No point starting another thread so will post in here. I came across this on a friends facebook.
This guy went on a cut same time as me, I lost more weight but he looks slimmer, I was also working out 5-6 times per week, this guy 3 times.
http://imgur.com/a/65iTi he started at 15 stone 5 lbs, I started at 16 stone 2 lbs
http://imgur.com/a/txijF He is now 13 stone 6 lbs, I am 12 stone 4 lbs
How does this happen? This isn't the first time I've seen similar, fat overweight guys who convert the fat to muscle where as I just got smaller, built no muscle and have more or less the same build.
If you compare my pic now http://imgur.com/a/3NcH0 to this guy, he looks slimmer than me and I am 16 lbs ligher than him.
a) Superior genetics.
b) Superior training routine.
c) Superior nutrition.
If he's on a well-designed workout program and you're spending your time in the gym doing random exercises and a nonsensical bodypart split, it's not at all inconceivable that he could have far better results. It's not how often you to go the gym or how long you spend in there; it's what you do while you're in there. That's why it's not a good idea for most people to design their own workout routines - because they don't have the faintest idea of what they're doing or why they're doing it (or why they should/shouldn't be doing what they're doing).
Also, you apparently cut at a very steep deficit, so there's a chance that you lost a lot more lean body mass than somebody cutting at a more reasonable deficit.
Sorry but I've always followed a program, bigger leaner stronger by Mike Matthews, I was also doing strong lifts at a time as well.
Genetics may well play a part, my father is lighter than me and still over weight. At my lightest I was 10.5 stone when I was 19, would you believe I was still fat so I don't believe more cutting as suggested will help my problem, though in saying that I started cutting again this week.
didn't you cut with a massive deficit last time? are you doing that again?
That's why. You should never be that low in a cut. People prepping for shows getting down to 5% body fat never even cut that much. Did you ever stop to think that this guy had already had sufficient muscle mass built under his body fat? He may have been building for a bit then decided to cut or just simply had more muscle and has a better frame/genetics. If you want muscle. Suck it up, go into a surplus, get onto a hypertrophy over strength lifting program stick to it, lift with intensity but also intelligence. Eat nutritionally sense food, chicken, wild rice, nut butters, coconut oil, fruit, sweet potatoes, quinoa, lean steaks, spinach, oatmeal, whole fat milk, the list goes on. We ALL hate adding extra fat during a bulk, but it's a nescessary sacrifice to achieve a better physique. I've been exactly where you are. I started at 210, cut down to 153. Maintained a deficit for 4 months, built nothing, thought I could build and cut in succession. You can't. It's one or another.
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dave_in_ni wrote: »hamlet1222 wrote: »Best advice these days seems to be to lift weights that have you in the 4-6 rep range (failing on last rep), which looks like what you are doing already.
You don't mention your diet beyond saying you're at maintenance. It's possible you're over-training and not eating enough. Some things you could try if you haven't already:
1. Check your macro nutrient breakdown, make sure you're getting enough protein.
2. Increasing calories to 200-300 above maintenance.
3. Reduce workout frequency, less can be more sometimes.
I hear this surplus a lot, My problem is OK I am in a healthy BMI but I am still fat well skinny fat, I don't want to make that problem worse which is why I am scared of surplus.
what is your current body fat %? you may not be lean enough to bulk yet and may benefit from eating in small deficit and continue lifting and then bulk or recomp....1 -
dave_in_ni wrote: »If you look at my weight loss scale it will show I'm at maintaining all summer and what happened my build? Damn all, no muscle built. I'm not convinced weight loss is the way to go, I think I need some muscle on my frame first and the only way to do that it seems is a slight surplus
Then recomp, but as someone else who could be described as "not genetically gifted," and I think I said this before, but you are going to drive yourself batty and go nowhere unless you set a goal, pick a plan, and stick with it for months if not years. I've gained maybe 13-14 pounds of muscle in the last three years on s recomp and I've busted my *kitten* for every pound. You have to plan, stick with that plan, and work hard. Don't expect this to be easy and don't compare yourself to others unless you're willing to be frustrated.0 -
dave_in_ni wrote: »hamlet1222 wrote: »Best advice these days seems to be to lift weights that have you in the 4-6 rep range (failing on last rep), which looks like what you are doing already.
You don't mention your diet beyond saying you're at maintenance. It's possible you're over-training and not eating enough. Some things you could try if you haven't already:
1. Check your macro nutrient breakdown, make sure you're getting enough protein.
2. Increasing calories to 200-300 above maintenance.
3. Reduce workout frequency, less can be more sometimes.
I hear this surplus a lot, My problem is OK I am in a healthy BMI but I am still fat well skinny fat, I don't want to make that problem worse which is why I am scared of surplus.
what is your current body fat %? you may not be lean enough to bulk yet and may benefit from eating in small deficit and continue lifting and then bulk or recomp....
It's 20% at least. Any form of deficit isn't building muscle though, even eating at maintaining didn't build any muscle.0 -
dave_in_ni wrote: »dave_in_ni wrote: »hamlet1222 wrote: »Best advice these days seems to be to lift weights that have you in the 4-6 rep range (failing on last rep), which looks like what you are doing already.
You don't mention your diet beyond saying you're at maintenance. It's possible you're over-training and not eating enough. Some things you could try if you haven't already:
1. Check your macro nutrient breakdown, make sure you're getting enough protein.
2. Increasing calories to 200-300 above maintenance.
3. Reduce workout frequency, less can be more sometimes.
I hear this surplus a lot, My problem is OK I am in a healthy BMI but I am still fat well skinny fat, I don't want to make that problem worse which is why I am scared of surplus.
what is your current body fat %? you may not be lean enough to bulk yet and may benefit from eating in small deficit and continue lifting and then bulk or recomp....
It's 20% at least. Any form of deficit isn't building muscle though, even eating at maintaining didn't build any muscle.
No, but you can lose fat without destroying what muscle you have if you actually take notice of the advice you've been given!1 -
TavistockToad wrote: »dave_in_ni wrote: »dave_in_ni wrote: »hamlet1222 wrote: »Best advice these days seems to be to lift weights that have you in the 4-6 rep range (failing on last rep), which looks like what you are doing already.
You don't mention your diet beyond saying you're at maintenance. It's possible you're over-training and not eating enough. Some things you could try if you haven't already:
1. Check your macro nutrient breakdown, make sure you're getting enough protein.
2. Increasing calories to 200-300 above maintenance.
3. Reduce workout frequency, less can be more sometimes.
I hear this surplus a lot, My problem is OK I am in a healthy BMI but I am still fat well skinny fat, I don't want to make that problem worse which is why I am scared of surplus.
what is your current body fat %? you may not be lean enough to bulk yet and may benefit from eating in small deficit and continue lifting and then bulk or recomp....
It's 20% at least. Any form of deficit isn't building muscle though, even eating at maintaining didn't build any muscle.
No, but you can lose fat without destroying what muscle you have if you actually take notice of the advice you've been given!
I agree. re-read the thread, you've been given excellent advice.2 -
dave_in_ni wrote: »dave_in_ni wrote: »hamlet1222 wrote: »Best advice these days seems to be to lift weights that have you in the 4-6 rep range (failing on last rep), which looks like what you are doing already.
You don't mention your diet beyond saying you're at maintenance. It's possible you're over-training and not eating enough. Some things you could try if you haven't already:
1. Check your macro nutrient breakdown, make sure you're getting enough protein.
2. Increasing calories to 200-300 above maintenance.
3. Reduce workout frequency, less can be more sometimes.
I hear this surplus a lot, My problem is OK I am in a healthy BMI but I am still fat well skinny fat, I don't want to make that problem worse which is why I am scared of surplus.
what is your current body fat %? you may not be lean enough to bulk yet and may benefit from eating in small deficit and continue lifting and then bulk or recomp....
It's 20% at least. Any form of deficit isn't building muscle though, even eating at maintaining didn't build any muscle.
ideally, you want to be in the 10-14% range prior to running a bulk. I would suggest keep eating in a small deficit of 250 calories a day, keep your protein at about .8 grams per pound of body weight; fats at .45, and fill in rest with carbs/as needed.
I would also get on a structured lifting program that has progressive overload built into it. Once you hit 15% body fat you could run a recomp ...or go for a lower body fat and then bulk.
The problem with bulking at 20% is that most of your gains are going to be fat and not muscle.1 -
dave_in_ni wrote: »dave_in_ni wrote: »hamlet1222 wrote: »Best advice these days seems to be to lift weights that have you in the 4-6 rep range (failing on last rep), which looks like what you are doing already.
You don't mention your diet beyond saying you're at maintenance. It's possible you're over-training and not eating enough. Some things you could try if you haven't already:
1. Check your macro nutrient breakdown, make sure you're getting enough protein.
2. Increasing calories to 200-300 above maintenance.
3. Reduce workout frequency, less can be more sometimes.
I hear this surplus a lot, My problem is OK I am in a healthy BMI but I am still fat well skinny fat, I don't want to make that problem worse which is why I am scared of surplus.
what is your current body fat %? you may not be lean enough to bulk yet and may benefit from eating in small deficit and continue lifting and then bulk or recomp....
It's 20% at least. Any form of deficit isn't building muscle though, even eating at maintaining didn't build any muscle.
ideally, you want to be in the 10-14% range prior to running a bulk. I would suggest keep eating in a small deficit of 250 calories a day, keep your protein at about .8 grams per pound of body weight; fats at .45, and fill in rest with carbs/as needed.
I would also get on a structured lifting program that has progressive overload built into it. Once you hit 15% body fat you could run a recomp ...or go for a lower body fat and then bulk.
The problem with bulking at 20% is that most of your gains are going to be fat and not muscle.
Right so 250 below maintenance? My maintenance is 2060 so that's 1810 per day. The cut is gonna take a hell of a lot longer, the main reason I went 1500 is speed.0 -
dave_in_ni wrote: »dave_in_ni wrote: »dave_in_ni wrote: »hamlet1222 wrote: »Best advice these days seems to be to lift weights that have you in the 4-6 rep range (failing on last rep), which looks like what you are doing already.
You don't mention your diet beyond saying you're at maintenance. It's possible you're over-training and not eating enough. Some things you could try if you haven't already:
1. Check your macro nutrient breakdown, make sure you're getting enough protein.
2. Increasing calories to 200-300 above maintenance.
3. Reduce workout frequency, less can be more sometimes.
I hear this surplus a lot, My problem is OK I am in a healthy BMI but I am still fat well skinny fat, I don't want to make that problem worse which is why I am scared of surplus.
what is your current body fat %? you may not be lean enough to bulk yet and may benefit from eating in small deficit and continue lifting and then bulk or recomp....
It's 20% at least. Any form of deficit isn't building muscle though, even eating at maintaining didn't build any muscle.
ideally, you want to be in the 10-14% range prior to running a bulk. I would suggest keep eating in a small deficit of 250 calories a day, keep your protein at about .8 grams per pound of body weight; fats at .45, and fill in rest with carbs/as needed.
I would also get on a structured lifting program that has progressive overload built into it. Once you hit 15% body fat you could run a recomp ...or go for a lower body fat and then bulk.
The problem with bulking at 20% is that most of your gains are going to be fat and not muscle.
Right so 250 below maintenance? My maintenance is 2060 so that's 1810 per day. The cut is gonna take a hell of a lot longer, the main reason I went 1500 is speed.
You can't get the results you want quickly. End of story....2 -
dave_in_ni wrote: »dave_in_ni wrote: »dave_in_ni wrote: »hamlet1222 wrote: »Best advice these days seems to be to lift weights that have you in the 4-6 rep range (failing on last rep), which looks like what you are doing already.
You don't mention your diet beyond saying you're at maintenance. It's possible you're over-training and not eating enough. Some things you could try if you haven't already:
1. Check your macro nutrient breakdown, make sure you're getting enough protein.
2. Increasing calories to 200-300 above maintenance.
3. Reduce workout frequency, less can be more sometimes.
I hear this surplus a lot, My problem is OK I am in a healthy BMI but I am still fat well skinny fat, I don't want to make that problem worse which is why I am scared of surplus.
what is your current body fat %? you may not be lean enough to bulk yet and may benefit from eating in small deficit and continue lifting and then bulk or recomp....
It's 20% at least. Any form of deficit isn't building muscle though, even eating at maintaining didn't build any muscle.
ideally, you want to be in the 10-14% range prior to running a bulk. I would suggest keep eating in a small deficit of 250 calories a day, keep your protein at about .8 grams per pound of body weight; fats at .45, and fill in rest with carbs/as needed.
I would also get on a structured lifting program that has progressive overload built into it. Once you hit 15% body fat you could run a recomp ...or go for a lower body fat and then bulk.
The problem with bulking at 20% is that most of your gains are going to be fat and not muscle.
Right so 250 below maintenance? My maintenance is 2060 so that's 1810 per day. The cut is gonna take a hell of a lot longer, the main reason I went 1500 is speed.
and you probably lost a lot of muscle...what I am proposing is maintain as much mass as possible and get to a leaner body fat % and then run a bulk or recomp ...yes, it is going to take time, I would guess about four more months maybe six ...but there is no magical wand to wave...you did not get to your current state over-night and you cannot get out of it over-night...that is the truth ...we all have to start somewhere...2 -
dave_in_ni wrote: »dave_in_ni wrote: »dave_in_ni wrote: »hamlet1222 wrote: »Best advice these days seems to be to lift weights that have you in the 4-6 rep range (failing on last rep), which looks like what you are doing already.
You don't mention your diet beyond saying you're at maintenance. It's possible you're over-training and not eating enough. Some things you could try if you haven't already:
1. Check your macro nutrient breakdown, make sure you're getting enough protein.
2. Increasing calories to 200-300 above maintenance.
3. Reduce workout frequency, less can be more sometimes.
I hear this surplus a lot, My problem is OK I am in a healthy BMI but I am still fat well skinny fat, I don't want to make that problem worse which is why I am scared of surplus.
what is your current body fat %? you may not be lean enough to bulk yet and may benefit from eating in small deficit and continue lifting and then bulk or recomp....
It's 20% at least. Any form of deficit isn't building muscle though, even eating at maintaining didn't build any muscle.
ideally, you want to be in the 10-14% range prior to running a bulk. I would suggest keep eating in a small deficit of 250 calories a day, keep your protein at about .8 grams per pound of body weight; fats at .45, and fill in rest with carbs/as needed.
I would also get on a structured lifting program that has progressive overload built into it. Once you hit 15% body fat you could run a recomp ...or go for a lower body fat and then bulk.
The problem with bulking at 20% is that most of your gains are going to be fat and not muscle.
Right so 250 below maintenance? My maintenance is 2060 so that's 1810 per day. The cut is gonna take a hell of a lot longer, the main reason I went 1500 is speed.
and you probably lost a lot of muscle...what I am proposing is maintain as much mass as possible and get to a leaner body fat % and then run a bulk or recomp ...yes, it is going to take time, I would guess about four more months maybe six ...but there is no magical wand to wave...you did not get to your current state over-night and you cannot get out of it over-night...that is the truth ...we all have to start somewhere...
Where does this leave my lifting then? At the moment I am pi$$ing in the wind wasting my time as there won't be any gains and hasn't been since I started.0 -
dave_in_ni wrote: »dave_in_ni wrote: »dave_in_ni wrote: »dave_in_ni wrote: »hamlet1222 wrote: »Best advice these days seems to be to lift weights that have you in the 4-6 rep range (failing on last rep), which looks like what you are doing already.
You don't mention your diet beyond saying you're at maintenance. It's possible you're over-training and not eating enough. Some things you could try if you haven't already:
1. Check your macro nutrient breakdown, make sure you're getting enough protein.
2. Increasing calories to 200-300 above maintenance.
3. Reduce workout frequency, less can be more sometimes.
I hear this surplus a lot, My problem is OK I am in a healthy BMI but I am still fat well skinny fat, I don't want to make that problem worse which is why I am scared of surplus.
what is your current body fat %? you may not be lean enough to bulk yet and may benefit from eating in small deficit and continue lifting and then bulk or recomp....
It's 20% at least. Any form of deficit isn't building muscle though, even eating at maintaining didn't build any muscle.
ideally, you want to be in the 10-14% range prior to running a bulk. I would suggest keep eating in a small deficit of 250 calories a day, keep your protein at about .8 grams per pound of body weight; fats at .45, and fill in rest with carbs/as needed.
I would also get on a structured lifting program that has progressive overload built into it. Once you hit 15% body fat you could run a recomp ...or go for a lower body fat and then bulk.
The problem with bulking at 20% is that most of your gains are going to be fat and not muscle.
Right so 250 below maintenance? My maintenance is 2060 so that's 1810 per day. The cut is gonna take a hell of a lot longer, the main reason I went 1500 is speed.
and you probably lost a lot of muscle...what I am proposing is maintain as much mass as possible and get to a leaner body fat % and then run a bulk or recomp ...yes, it is going to take time, I would guess about four more months maybe six ...but there is no magical wand to wave...you did not get to your current state over-night and you cannot get out of it over-night...that is the truth ...we all have to start somewhere...
Where does this leave my lifting then? At the moment I am pi$$ing in the wind wasting my time as there won't be any gains and hasn't been since I started.
I cannot stress this enough.
You have two options.
1.) Lose the fat and RETAIN as much muscle as you can
2.) Gain new muscle and fat
You want to lose fat right now, so you will want to take option 1.
To RETAIN muscle mass you have to:
1.) Eat a SMALL/MODERATE calorie deficit
2.) Consistently strength train/resistance train
3.) Consume adequate protein (.8-1.2g per pound LBM)4
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