September (2016) Running Challenge

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  • Elise4270
    Elise4270 Posts: 8,375 Member
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    @greenolivetree I know you were just playin'. Still wanna be sensitive to others though :blush:

    I'll have to look up that passage.
  • Elise4270
    Elise4270 Posts: 8,375 Member
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    @CodeMonkey78 is back at it! I reminded him to drop by!
  • MNLittleFinn
    MNLittleFinn Posts: 4,271 Member
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    So, I just read the Joe Friel article here on finding LTHR. Using that, I took a recent fast workout and found that the average HR for for the last 20 minutes of the 35 minute fast part was 175. For some reason, this seems high to me. Should I use this number for my LTHR?
  • Stoshew71
    Stoshew71 Posts: 6,553 Member
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    luluinca wrote: »
    @stoshew71, thanks for the info but it's still not working. I'll just do a new one for next month soon anyway. I'm at 38.2 miles after today's run so should be able to get my 40 in on the last day of the month..........LOL

    That's cutting it close.

    http://www.tickerfactory.com/exercise/wSPmZBe

    There is a button that says Edit/Update Data, press it and it should take you to another screen to enter your password/pin and update you mileage. I just tried the link and I see where it says 38.32/40

    I just don't know your pin.


  • greenolivetree
    greenolivetree Posts: 1,282 Member
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    Stoshew71 wrote: »
    greenolivetree wrote: »
    Elise4270 wrote: »
    greenolivetree wrote: »
    Is it strange that I feel a little fear when I see "@elise4270 mentioned you"??? :p

    Aw I'm so sorry... maybe it's excitement not fear? I forget you have people anxiety, right? My DD does too. I just don't trust people and try to avoid them. I just love your mfp name, reminds me of Monet's olive trees. What a great place to run. So tranquil.

    I'll do better :wink:

    I just never know what's gonna come out of your mouth/fingers :p Was just messin' with you. My screenname is based on Psalm 52:8 :) Glad you like it.

    @MNLittleFinn and @Orphia I too wish I could get it figured out how to vary my pace more. My first year of running I always ran faster and faster. So this year I decided to slow down. I got slower and slower and now don't know how to run faster. LOL I can't seem to stay uninjured long enough to try any speed work either. So I'll just keep running slow for now. Well, I say slow but most of the time I run negative splits and they are pretty spaced out like 10:45/10:15/9:10. I'm not good at holding a steady pace either apparently. I end up always averaging around 10:00 though and I'd like to be able to run 10:00 steady for an easy run and then run 9:00 steady for a faster run. All my runs are short now so I don't know right now if I can warm up and then hold the faster pace for awhile vs just the last mile.

    Speedwork for beginners without actually doing speedwork.

    1) Pick-ups or bursts: Say you have an easy 4 miler. So do your entire first 2 miles at an easy pace (conversational). Starting at your 3rd mile start running at your 5K pace (maybe 85-90% of your maximum effort or not quite a full out sprint) and hold this for 20-30 seconds. Slow down back to your easy pace for 2 minutes or until you are fully recovered. Repeat the burst 2-5 more times. Complete the remainder of your run at your easy pace as a cool down.

    2) Strides: After your easy run. Stop and recover. Find a flat stretch that you can sprint on. Start from a standing at rest position. Start at an easy jog but quickly build up to like a 98% effort (almost a full on sprint) and hold this sprint for 2-5 seconds and build back down to that easy jog and then stop completely. Slowly walk back to your starting point. Wait till you fully recover. Then repeat 2-5 more times. The whole stride should take you about 30 seconds.

    Note: lots of people call pickup or bursts as strides, but the way I defined strides here is the accepted official definition.

    3) Fartlek run: Take that easy 4 miler from my first example. Run the first mile or 2 at that easy conversational pace. Then pick a spot up in the distance (any spot). It could be a big tree, a telephone pole, that car parked on the side of the road. Start running faster (it doesn't matter how fast, 5K pace / 10K pace) it could be any faster speed you like and run to that spot. Once you reach that spot, slow back down to your easy pace and recover. Pick a new spot and do the exact same thing. Repeat a few times as you like. Run the very last miler back at that easy conversational pace.

    4) Hill repeats: Pick a hill that is not too steep. You should be able to sprint up the hill and maintain perfect form. If it is so steep that you have to run up it funny, then pick a hill that is less grade steep. You should be able to complete the hill within 30-40 seconds. Start up the hill in a slow jog but work it so you are sprinting up it just like strides (could be 85-98% effort). But you will hold the sprint part longer than 2 seconds. Walk or slow jog down the hill till fully recovered, then repeat several times.

    Thanks. This is basically the stuff I was working on this summer in June/July until this nagging pain above/behind my right knee started. If I can get a few weeks of running 3 flat miles 3-4 days a week without reaggravating the pain, I'll start back up.
  • Stoshew71
    Stoshew71 Posts: 6,553 Member
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    MNLittleFinn wrote: »
    So, I just read the Joe Friel article here on finding LTHR. Using that, I took a recent fast workout and found that the average HR for for the last 20 minutes of the 35 minute fast part was 175. For some reason, this seems high to me. Should I use this number for my LTHR?

    I am very scientific about finding my LT pace, NOT! I don't wear my HRM much because it makes a mark on my chest. Chafes me really bad. I know I probably should wear it more often though.

    I calculate my LT based upon race times (or even worse goal race pace). I don't suggest using goal pace though, screwed me up last year and as a result I think I ended up doing too much anaerobic work. LT is basically the pace you can race at and sustained if your race was about an hour long. Based upon that: The Cotton Row 10K is a recent race where the weather wasn't too bad: 44:57 or 7:14/mi pace. This race also has a very bad hill right about mile 4 which makes this race really hard to use, but none the less, it is the best data that I have to work with. I figure without that hill, maybe I could run it 2-5 minutes faster. Be conservative, 10K at 43:00 is 6:55 pace. I figure (roughly) if I slowed down to a 7:05 pace, I should be able to sustain that for an hour.

    Looking at McMillian's estimate: he puts my vLT at 7:06/mi. So that was close.

  • TattooedDolphinGirl78
    TattooedDolphinGirl78 Posts: 5,214 Member
    edited September 2016
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    @BeeerRunner Happy Birthday from a fellow Packers fan!
  • Ohhim
    Ohhim Posts: 1,142 Member
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    Looks like the Boston Athletic Association only accepted 23,214 time qualifiers instead of the 24,000 they mentioned they would a few weeks back for next year's marathon. In short*, this meant I didn't get a slot this morning, as they set the cutoff at 2:09 (vs my BQ-1:35 time) and I missed the cutoff by 34 seconds. Ready to take out some frustration at the Chicago marathon next weekend, but will just go with the 3:05 pacer to avoid blowing up (although I suspect I'm in sub-3 shape) to land a BQ-10.

    Going to be super-careful about my diet the next week, properly recover from my IM 70.3 HM for another few days, and go from there. I've never run a marathon mad, but looking forward to it.

    Just did 5 miles after my group ride this morning with my tri team. Will likely do a double tonight.

    9/1 - 6 miles (treadmill)
    9/2 - 10 miles
    9/3 - 12 miles
    9/4 - 16 miles
    9/6 - 10.5 miles (w. HM pace running at end)
    9/7 - 6 miles
    9/9 - 6 miles
    9/11 - 3 miles
    9/12 - 8.5 miles
    9/13 - 10 miles
    9/14 - 12 miles
    9/15 - 6.5 miles
    9/16 - 20 miles
    9/17 - 6 miles (w. MP in middle)
    9/19 - 6.5 miles
    9/20 - 7 miles (w. 2@MP, and 3x1K@10K pace)
    9/21 - 6 miles (all at MP/HM heart rate)
    9/23 - 3 miles
    9/24 - 1 mile
    9/25 - 13 miles (IM 70.3 Augusta, 1:35:30)
    9/27 - 5 miles
    9/28 - 5 miles

    Total: 179 miles, 6 MP+ faster session
    Goal: 190 miles, 8 MP+ faster sessions
    Remaining: 11 miles, 2 MP+ faster sessions

    2016 Race Schedule:
    Disney Marathon - Jan 6 - 3:29:09
    Gasparilla 15K - Feb 20 - 1:01:59
    Ironman 70.3 Florida - Apr 10 - 5:07:51
    Pittsburgh Marathon - May 1 - 3:08:25
    Ironman 70.3 Augusta - Sep 25 - 4:43:56
    Chicago Marathon - Oct 9
    Ironman Florida - Nov 5
    Rock 'n Roll Las Vegas 10K - Nov 13

    * Quick back of the envelope math: 26,171 applicants, 23,214 acceptees, 2957 rejected by running 2:08 or less under the cutoff (128 seconds). 2957 / 128 seconds = 23.1 cut applicants per second. Had they accepted 784 more = 34 more seconds of qualifying time = I get in.
  • Stoshew71
    Stoshew71 Posts: 6,553 Member
    edited September 2016
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    I am so sorry @Ohhim that you did not make it. On the bright side, looking forward to you doing Boston with me and @kristinegift in 2018 (fingers crossed for all of us). I know a few others in here will be trying for it as well but forgot who. Hopefully @MobyCarp will be there as well.

    BTW, there is a group from my running group that are doing Chicago.
  • Stoshew71
    Stoshew71 Posts: 6,553 Member
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    Don't forget @Ohhim Out of the 24,000 they accept, there is a small percentage that get earmarked due to charity runners or other special situations. They probably have 24,000, but only 23,214 as time qualifiers.
  • 5512bf
    5512bf Posts: 389 Member
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    MNLittleFinn wrote: »
    So, I just read the Joe Friel article here on finding LTHR. Using that, I took a recent fast workout and found that the average HR for for the last 20 minutes of the 35 minute fast part was 175. For some reason, this seems high to me. Should I use this number for my LTHR?

    @MNLittleFinn

    Everything is an estimate until you actually have a blood lactic test. For comparison purposes last July my LT was 159 per a blood test. I was probably in similar shape as yourself, doing 40 miles a week and just completing a marathon in March and a 2:00 HM in May. These were the zones my trainer setup for me.

    Easy/Recovery (E) Zone: 115-140 bpm
    Aerobic Maintenance (A) Zone: 141-157 bpm
    Threshold/Steady (T) Zone: 158-162 bpm LT HR 159 bpm
    Interval (I) Zone: 163+ bpm

    This July my LT was 172 and these were the zones he setup for me,

    Easy/Recovery (E) Zone: 120-140 bpm
    Aerobic Maintenance (A) Zone: 141-169 bpm
    Threshold/Steady (T) Zone: 170-174 bpm LT HR 172 bpm
    Interval (I) Zone: 175+ bpm

    The only thing that really changed was where I do tempo, intervals & hill work runs. My easy runs are still in the same HR range for the most part, but i'm able to run faster at that zone. He told me tempos and threshold runs are very difficult to hit exactly on that number because of a ton of variables, (heat, humidity, elevation, cardiac drift, ect) He suggests staying +/- 5 BPM of that number and doing them by perceived effort. As @Stoshew71 says, you also need to vary some of your your runs so you train the other systems that are in play for running, hence doing the remaining 20% of your runs are a faster pace. I'm certain if you give this 4 months, you'll see a big difference in your easy run paces and endurance. The LT number is not nearly as important in the 80/20 plan as finding that z2/z3 line.



  • MNLittleFinn
    MNLittleFinn Posts: 4,271 Member
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    @Ohhim Sorry you didn't get in. You're still an amazing runner!
  • MobyCarp
    MobyCarp Posts: 2,927 Member
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    @Ohhim - Bummer! Cutoff over 2 minutes, 2 years in a row with last year's Boston being a slow race . . . Boston must be getting more popular.

    @Stoshew71 - BAA says the field size is 30K, and roughly 20% is reserved for charity runners. So either there are more charity runners this year than last, or there were just too many people who beat their BQ by 2:08 to fit them all in the field size.

    I do like to look at the statistics (copy/paste from BAA site):

    26,171 applications were received during the registration period for qualifiers.
    23,214 Qualified applicants have been accepted to date or are in the process of being accepted, pending verification of their qualifying performance.
    2,957 applicants were unable to be accepted due to the large number of eligible qualifiers who submitted an application for entry combined with field size limitations.

    4,357 Qualifiers met their qualifying time by 20 minutes, 00 seconds or faster.
    7,105 Qualifiers met their qualifying time by 10 minutes, 00 seconds or faster.
    6,845 Qualifiers met their qualifying time by 05 minutes, 00 seconds or faster.
    4,497 Qualifiers met their qualifying time by 02 minutes, 09 seconds or faster.
    410 Qualifiers were accepted based on finishing 10 or more consecutive Boston Marathons.

    So it looks like 60% of the 2nd week registrants got in.

    Today is Day 10 of No Running for me. I was optimistic as I jogged up and down the hallway while the eggs cooked; for a minute, everything felt perfectly normal except for an ankle twinge that may not be related to my Achilles issue. Then the aches started coming. I managed to jog long enough for the eggs to cook, but that was long enough to convince me that there should be no 2 mile easy run today.

    Next best thing, work on the supportive exercises. Do the Bosu Ball balance thing, do the odd ankle strengthener the PT had me do yesterday, do my weighted calf raises. The weighted calf raises were just a little easier today with 15 lbs. on the left leg than they were yesterday. 15 lbs. remains trivially easy on the right leg.
  • MNLittleFinn
    MNLittleFinn Posts: 4,271 Member
    edited September 2016
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    @5512bf

    Thanks for the information. I'm going to try running using the 175 LTHR estimate and see how things go, sine getting Lactic test done isn't an option for me at this point, and the 175 I got was from a good run where I was still feeling pretty good when I finished the fast portion (15 minute warm up 35 minutes fast, 15 minute cool down). I'm going to try to be very strict about keeping my HR in or under Zone 2 (<156 according to the Fitzgerald calculator). Best I can do for now, so I'm hoping it works out.
  • Stoshew71
    Stoshew71 Posts: 6,553 Member
    edited September 2016
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    MobyCarp wrote: »
    @Ohhim - Bummer! Cutoff over 2 minutes, 2 years in a row with last year's Boston being a slow race . . . Boston must be getting more popular.

    @Stoshew71 - BAA says the field size is 30K, and roughly 20% is reserved for charity runners. So either there are more charity runners this year than last, or there were just too many people who beat their BQ by 2:08 to fit them all in the field size.

    Thank you for the correction. I suspect something else (regarding Boston being warm this past year), even though in the past, most used their previous Boston time as their qualifier, I suspect that if they didn't qualify this year, they found another race to use as their qualifier.

  • Stoshew71
    Stoshew71 Posts: 6,553 Member
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    MNLittleFinn wrote: »
    @5512bf

    Thanks for the information. I'm going to try running using the 175 LTHR estimate and see how things go, sine getting Lactic test done isn't an option for me at this point, and the 175 I got was from a good run where I was still feeling pretty good when I finished the fast portion (15 minute warm up 35 minutes fast, 15 minute cool down). I'm going to try to be very strict about keeping my HR in or under Zone 2 (<156 according to the Fitzgerald calculator). Best I can do for now, so I'm hoping it works out.

    My 2 cents. If you have the opportunity to get a LT test done, go for it and do it for kicks. I would not pay good money for it (for a number of reasons). First as @5512bf pointed out, so many variables will screw up your LT (weather, course, stress, sleep, diet) when you go and actually execute a LT run. But even more important: the more new you are at running you are, the faster your improvements become. You go and get a blood test done. By the time a month goes by, you probably made so much improvement that the reading is no longer valid. A lab blood test makes more sense to an elite runner with 10 years experience when he/she is working their tail off to shave 30 seconds off their marathon PR time. Us mere mortals can shave 90 seconds off a 5K time in our sleep with enough dedicated training.

  • dowelahmed
    dowelahmed Posts: 26 Member
    edited September 2016
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    @dkabambe Definitely, the course is easy to follow and the surface is smooth so it's easy on the legs as well.

    @louubelle16 The HM got a good turnout so I would recommend it, as mentioned above the course is easy and would be good preparation for a Marathon.
  • karllundy
    karllundy Posts: 1,490 Member
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    @Ohhim - Ugh! Sorry to hear about Boston :-(
    @BeeerRunner - Aren't you in Texas now? Can't believe your co-workers found all that "ugly" green and gold :-) (says a disgruntled Bears fan).

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