Diet Soda and Weight Loss
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stevencloser wrote: »How many more years of research has to flow into the same thing for the last person to be satisfied? The consensus on aspartame is the most confident "ain't nothing wrong with it" I've ever seen in any substance.
Aspartame is far from the only artificial sweetener. Additionally the studies done are have been one sided, both pharmacokinetic and pharmacodynamics studies should be done. The problem is the FDA requirements. But why fear, the US government has never been wrong with diet or drugs!0 -
I gave up aspartame, because I seemed to get hungrier after I had one and always wanted a snack. I craved carbs. Since I switched to unsweetened tea and water, I can go without snacking. This was the best thing I did in my weight loss journey 44 lbs ago. I'm also a former food scientist and hated that I was addicted to Diet Coke. I'm 90% free of all processed foods now.2
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How are you defining "processed"? People so often seem to define it in unusual, counterintuitive ways.
Anyway, I don't really drink diet coke at the moment (cutting down on caffeine and coffee is my preferred source), but have gone off and on, and absolutely zero problems quitting snacking when I was drinking an occasional diet soda. If anything it was an easy and satisfying replacement for a snack if I wanted something between meals (so is coffee).3 -
alexreyn13 wrote: »"Artificial sweeteners trigger insulin, which sends your body into fat storage mode and leads to weight gain."
I've seen this phrase a few times in articles that discuss the effects of diet soda and weight loss. Is there actually any evidence or real science behind this statement?
it does it to me, I had to stop eating the 'fake sugar'.0 -
alexreyn13 wrote: »"Artificial sweeteners trigger insulin, which sends your body into fat storage mode and leads to weight gain."
I've seen this phrase a few times in articles that discuss the effects of diet soda and weight loss. Is there actually any evidence or real science behind this statement?
it does it to me, I had to stop eating the 'fake sugar'.
I do drink diet soda. not all the time though.
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That's an anecdote though. Peer reviewed clinical studies overall don't show it.alexreyn13 wrote: »"Artificial sweeteners trigger insulin, which sends your body into fat storage mode and leads to weight gain."
I've seen this phrase a few times in articles that discuss the effects of diet soda and weight loss. Is there actually any evidence or real science behind this statement?
it does it to me, I had to stop eating the 'fake sugar'.
If people are gaining weight, it's not because of the diet soda. It's because they are eating more than they need to.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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alexreyn13 wrote: »"Artificial sweeteners trigger insulin, which sends your body into fat storage mode and leads to weight gain."
I've seen this phrase a few times in articles that discuss the effects of diet soda and weight loss. Is there actually any evidence or real science behind this statement?
it does it to me, I had to stop eating the 'fake sugar'.
It does what to you, specifically, and how do you know that's what it's doing?1 -
This thread has points of view in it that are diametrically opposed. Some are intelligent, rationale and based on decades of scientific research and real world results and some...6
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stevencloser wrote: »How many more years of research has to flow into the same thing for the last person to be satisfied? The consensus on aspartame is the most confident "ain't nothing wrong with it" I've ever seen in any substance.
Aspartame is far from the only artificial sweetener. Additionally the studies done are have been one sided, both pharmacokinetic and pharmacodynamics studies should be done. The problem is the FDA requirements. But why fear, the US government has never been wrong with diet or drugs!
Out of curiosity what is your familiarity with pharmacokinetic and pharmacodynamic studies? Its a rather odd request for a food additive which is rapidly metabolized and cleared. Kind of like demanding we study the properties of ice on the surface of the sun. For a compound to have measurable PK it has to be able to enter into the blood without being metabolically altered or cleared. So how, exactly, are you picturing a PK study be performed on a methylated dipeptide? Perhaps you can explain what mean and what you expect out of such a study?
ADME PK is typically performed on small molecule drugs which are orally bioavailable and do not undergo rapid metabolism. A is for asbsorption and relates to the ability of the compound to transfer from a mucosal layer such as the intestine into the blood stream for distribution. Aspartame, as an example, is not absorbed into the blood. The M in ADME is for metabolism, related to if the compound is broken down in our body or remains intact. Aspartame, as an example, is rapidly broken down into components of phenylalanine, aspartate and methanol. Di is for distribution, which is the ability of the compound to be distrubuted to different tissues via the blood. For aspartame it is metabolically broken down and not absorbed so there is no "D". E is for excretion, the removal of the compound from the blood to be excreted by the body and works in opposition to distribution. Again, for aspartame, it is metabolically broken down and not absorbed so there is nothing to excrete. Finally PK is the summation of ADME plus seeing what peak levels compound reaches in the blood or in target tissues and how long that is sustained. Of course, in the case of aspartame, can't really do PK given its just immediately broken down.
Aspartame, and the other commonly used artificial sweetners, are metabolically labile and are quickly broken down in our bodies. There is nothing to study in terms of PK so not sure what you are really asking here.
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alexreyn13 wrote: »"Artificial sweeteners trigger insulin, which sends your body into fat storage mode and leads to weight gain."
I've seen this phrase a few times in articles that discuss the effects of diet soda and weight loss. Is there actually any evidence or real science behind this statement?
I would ask for a link, but I'm sure you've already been asked and posted them somewhere in the conversation.
Whatever that article is, it's 100% off. The only thing that causes weight gain is a surplus of calories.
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Aaron_K123 wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »How many more years of research has to flow into the same thing for the last person to be satisfied? The consensus on aspartame is the most confident "ain't nothing wrong with it" I've ever seen in any substance.
Aspartame is far from the only artificial sweetener. Additionally the studies done are have been one sided, both pharmacokinetic and pharmacodynamics studies should be done. The problem is the FDA requirements. But why fear, the US government has never been wrong with diet or drugs!
Out of curiosity what is your familiarity with pharmacokinetic and pharmacodynamic studies? Its a rather odd request for a food additive which is rapidly metabolized and cleared. Kind of like demanding we study the properties of ice on the surface of the sun. For a compound to have measurable PK it has to be able to enter into the blood without being metabolically altered or cleared. So how, exactly, are you picturing a PK study be performed on a methylated dipeptide? Perhaps you can explain what mean and what you expect out of such a study?
ADME PK is typically performed on small molecule drugs which are orally bioavailable and do not undergo rapid metabolism. A is for asbsorption and relates to the ability of the compound to transfer from a mucosal layer such as the intestine into the blood stream for distribution. Aspartame, as an example, is not absorbed into the blood. The M in ADME is for metabolism, related to if the compound is broken down in our body or remains intact. Aspartame, as an example, is rapidly broken down into components of phenylalanine, aspartate and methanol. Di is for distribution, which is the ability of the compound to be distrubuted to different tissues via the blood. For aspartame it is metabolically broken down and not absorbed so there is no "D". E is for excretion, the removal of the compound from the blood to be excreted by the body and works in opposition to distribution. Again, for aspartame, it is metabolically broken down and not absorbed so there is nothing to excrete. Finally PK is the summation of ADME plus seeing what peak levels compound reaches in the blood or in target tissues and how long that is sustained. Of course, in the case of aspartame, can't really do PK given its just immediately broken down.
Aspartame, and the other commonly used artificial sweetners, are metabolically labile and are quickly broken down in our bodies. There is nothing to study in terms of PK so not sure what you are really asking here.
Too bad I'm only allowed to "Awesome" this post once. Great explanation.0 -
Aaron_K123 wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »How many more years of research has to flow into the same thing for the last person to be satisfied? The consensus on aspartame is the most confident "ain't nothing wrong with it" I've ever seen in any substance.
Aspartame is far from the only artificial sweetener. Additionally the studies done are have been one sided, both pharmacokinetic and pharmacodynamics studies should be done. The problem is the FDA requirements. But why fear, the US government has never been wrong with diet or drugs!
Out of curiosity what is your familiarity with pharmacokinetic and pharmacodynamic studies? Its a rather odd request for a food additive which is rapidly metabolized and cleared. Kind of like demanding we study the properties of ice on the surface of the sun. For a compound to have measurable PK it has to be able to enter into the blood without being metabolically altered or cleared. So how, exactly, are you picturing a PK study be performed on a methylated dipeptide? Perhaps you can explain what mean and what you expect out of such a study?
ADME PK is typically performed on small molecule drugs which are orally bioavailable and do not undergo rapid metabolism. A is for asbsorption and relates to the ability of the compound to transfer from a mucosal layer such as the intestine into the blood stream for distribution. Aspartame, as an example, is not absorbed into the blood. The M in ADME is for metabolism, related to if the compound is broken down in our body or remains intact. Aspartame, as an example, is rapidly broken down into components of phenylalanine, aspartate and methanol. Di is for distribution, which is the ability of the compound to be distrubuted to different tissues via the blood. For aspartame it is metabolically broken down and not absorbed so there is no "D". E is for excretion, the removal of the compound from the blood to be excreted by the body and works in opposition to distribution. Again, for aspartame, it is metabolically broken down and not absorbed so there is nothing to excrete. Finally PK is the summation of ADME plus seeing what peak levels compound reaches in the blood or in target tissues and how long that is sustained. Of course, in the case of aspartame, can't really do PK given its just immediately broken down.
Aspartame, and the other commonly used artificial sweetners, are metabolically labile and are quickly broken down in our bodies. There is nothing to study in terms of PK so not sure what you are really asking here.
Clearly you have a much deeper knowledge of the this subject area. My comment was from why some doctors say they can't take a position of the artificial sweeteners. At least with some discussions I've listened too. I don't have references because I didn't keep notes about it at the time because my concern was other topics. I can't deeply debate the merits because my background isn't strong. I'm merely accepting the expertise of others.
There literally dozens of artificial sweeteners, although many are uncommon. In my mind the main saving grace of these compounds is that they are typically many times sweeter than even fructose, so very little of the compounds are used. There are even many acute toxins we use routinely with good results. So in fact I'm not overly concerned with the toxicity. However I think it wise to keep an mind open about that. It is becoming widely accepted that fructose is a chronic toxin in the dosage range that is typical in many modern diets. For example in the US many teens are consuming in excess of 50 g/day. I actually think artificial sweeteners offer a safer alternative to refined sugars.
I personally do us a small amount of some artificial sweeteners, although since cutting back on sugar I surprising find myself comsuming much fewer things that contain them. My perception of sweet has been changing. In fact I've found myself being turned off by some things that are just too sweet.1 -
I'm not sure how true that is. Depending on what the sweetener is in, sometimes it makes me bloat but that's water weight. I've been drinking diet for years but my problem was the bad food and lack of exercise that would put on actual FAT. I don't drink as much artificial sweetness any more, but as long as it's not everyday I don't think it should affect it. Even so, again it's just water weight.0
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Aaron_K123 wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »How many more years of research has to flow into the same thing for the last person to be satisfied? The consensus on aspartame is the most confident "ain't nothing wrong with it" I've ever seen in any substance.
The waste of money and scientific resources rehashing the same thing over and over because of public whims on the matter is rather appalling.
The Butchko review from 2002 said as much. I just love the plain speak they chose for the study preface.3 -
Aaron_K123 wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »How many more years of research has to flow into the same thing for the last person to be satisfied? The consensus on aspartame is the most confident "ain't nothing wrong with it" I've ever seen in any substance.
Aspartame is far from the only artificial sweetener. Additionally the studies done are have been one sided, both pharmacokinetic and pharmacodynamics studies should be done. The problem is the FDA requirements. But why fear, the US government has never been wrong with diet or drugs!
Out of curiosity what is your familiarity with pharmacokinetic and pharmacodynamic studies? Its a rather odd request for a food additive which is rapidly metabolized and cleared. Kind of like demanding we study the properties of ice on the surface of the sun. For a compound to have measurable PK it has to be able to enter into the blood without being metabolically altered or cleared. So how, exactly, are you picturing a PK study be performed on a methylated dipeptide? Perhaps you can explain what mean and what you expect out of such a study?
ADME PK is typically performed on small molecule drugs which are orally bioavailable and do not undergo rapid metabolism. A is for asbsorption and relates to the ability of the compound to transfer from a mucosal layer such as the intestine into the blood stream for distribution. Aspartame, as an example, is not absorbed into the blood. The M in ADME is for metabolism, related to if the compound is broken down in our body or remains intact. Aspartame, as an example, is rapidly broken down into components of phenylalanine, aspartate and methanol. Di is for distribution, which is the ability of the compound to be distrubuted to different tissues via the blood. For aspartame it is metabolically broken down and not absorbed so there is no "D". E is for excretion, the removal of the compound from the blood to be excreted by the body and works in opposition to distribution. Again, for aspartame, it is metabolically broken down and not absorbed so there is nothing to excrete. Finally PK is the summation of ADME plus seeing what peak levels compound reaches in the blood or in target tissues and how long that is sustained. Of course, in the case of aspartame, can't really do PK given its just immediately broken down.
Aspartame, and the other commonly used artificial sweetners, are metabolically labile and are quickly broken down in our bodies. There is nothing to study in terms of PK so not sure what you are really asking here.
Clearly you have a much deeper knowledge of the this subject area. My comment was from why some doctors say they can't take a position of the artificial sweeteners. At least with some discussions I've listened too. I don't have references because I didn't keep notes about it at the time because my concern was other topics. I can't deeply debate the merits because my background isn't strong. I'm merely accepting the expertise of others.
There literally dozens of artificial sweeteners, although many are uncommon. In my mind the main saving grace of these compounds is that they are typically many times sweeter than even fructose, so very little of the compounds are used. There are even many acute toxins we use routinely with good results. So in fact I'm not overly concerned with the toxicity. However I think it wise to keep an mind open about that. It is becoming widely accepted that fructose is a chronic toxin in the dosage range that is typical in many modern diets. For example in the US many teens are consuming in excess of 50 g/day. I actually think artificial sweeteners offer a safer alternative to refined sugars.
I personally do us a small amount of some artificial sweeteners, although since cutting back on sugar I surprising find myself comsuming much fewer things that contain them. My perception of sweet has been changing. In fact I've found myself being turned off by some things that are just too sweet.
A little background on myself I currently work in drug development and ADME-PK is part of our repitoire for evaluating our compounds so its something I have direct experience with. Medical doctors would not have direct experience with pharmacokinetic studies so that isn't actually within their area of expertise. Its like someone who isn't a mechanic expressing concern that an electric car hasn't been thoroughly smog tested and so until they see data on smog tests for the Tesla they aren't going to purchase one. Pharmacists would probably be much more familiar with the concept of ADME-PK through their studies although again not through the practice of it. The group that would know about it through doing it would be research scientists in areas of drug development. A metabolized food additive isn't something you'd put into an ADME-PK study because there is about as much point in that as trying to smog test a Tesla. You mentioned that you listened to expertise, hopefully you are genuine there and don't mean that you listen to "expertise" only if it conforms to what you have decided to believe anyways. MDs don't have expertise there unless they are MD-PhDs who did some drug development.
You are correct about it being low amounts due to higher sweetness. Aspartame off the top of my head is something like 200 times the sweetness of fructose (I might not remember the exact number). They aren't toxins so you definately don't have to worry about toxicity. People really misuse and overuse the word toxin these days.
"It is becoming widely accepted that fructose is a chronic toxin in the dosage range that is typical in many modern diets" News to me. What is this group (scientific or medical) widely accepts fructose is a "toxin". Fructose doesn't qualify as a toxin because it does not meet the definition of a toxin which is that it has to have acute toxicity. "For example in the US many teens are consuming in excess of 50 g/day." case in point that fructose is not a toxin.
Quick aside just as an FYI. Fructose is a monosaccharide, along with glucose and galactose, fructose being a plant product. Many of the sugars we encounter in our daily lives are disaccharides, two monosaccharides linked together. Lactose is a disaccharide and is the source of sweetness in milk, the sugar found in milk, its galactose and glucose linked together. Sucrose, also a plant product, is also a disaccharide and is what we think of when we think table sugar....its glucose and fructose. You may have seen the name dextrose on ingredient labels, dextrose is just another name for glucose...same thing.
I'm more of a salt-tooth than a sweet-tooth, I like my chocolate dark as they make it. I like sweet beverages though for whatever reason. I flavor my coffee with aspartame typically. Will have a diet coke maybe a couple times a week but thats about it. I'm not trying to push artificial sweetners like they are going to help with people's health, they are a non-entity for me, they neither help nor harm. If you are on a diet and you love your sweet drinks then switching to a diet style drink is a good way to avoid some unneeded calories from a syrup, thats about it.
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stevencloser wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »How many more years of research has to flow into the same thing for the last person to be satisfied? The consensus on aspartame is the most confident "ain't nothing wrong with it" I've ever seen in any substance.
The waste of money and scientific resources rehashing the same thing over and over because of public whims on the matter is rather appalling.
The Butchko review from 2002 said as much. I just love the plain speak they chose for the study preface.
Science is largely publically funded and so the public gets to yank the chain to some degree although I really wish they would restrain themselves from doing so. What is the point of expertise if no one respects it. Abuse of FOIA requests is also getting out of hand in that regard.5 -
Aaron_K123 wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »How many more years of research has to flow into the same thing for the last person to be satisfied? The consensus on aspartame is the most confident "ain't nothing wrong with it" I've ever seen in any substance.
Aspartame is far from the only artificial sweetener. Additionally the studies done are have been one sided, both pharmacokinetic and pharmacodynamics studies should be done. The problem is the FDA requirements. But why fear, the US government has never been wrong with diet or drugs!
Out of curiosity what is your familiarity with pharmacokinetic and pharmacodynamic studies? Its a rather odd request for a food additive which is rapidly metabolized and cleared. Kind of like demanding we study the properties of ice on the surface of the sun. For a compound to have measurable PK it has to be able to enter into the blood without being metabolically altered or cleared. So how, exactly, are you picturing a PK study be performed on a methylated dipeptide? Perhaps you can explain what mean and what you expect out of such a study?
ADME PK is typically performed on small molecule drugs which are orally bioavailable and do not undergo rapid metabolism. A is for asbsorption and relates to the ability of the compound to transfer from a mucosal layer such as the intestine into the blood stream for distribution. Aspartame, as an example, is not absorbed into the blood. The M in ADME is for metabolism, related to if the compound is broken down in our body or remains intact. Aspartame, as an example, is rapidly broken down into components of phenylalanine, aspartate and methanol. Di is for distribution, which is the ability of the compound to be distrubuted to different tissues via the blood. For aspartame it is metabolically broken down and not absorbed so there is no "D". E is for excretion, the removal of the compound from the blood to be excreted by the body and works in opposition to distribution. Again, for aspartame, it is metabolically broken down and not absorbed so there is nothing to excrete. Finally PK is the summation of ADME plus seeing what peak levels compound reaches in the blood or in target tissues and how long that is sustained. Of course, in the case of aspartame, can't really do PK given its just immediately broken down.
Aspartame, and the other commonly used artificial sweetners, are metabolically labile and are quickly broken down in our bodies. There is nothing to study in terms of PK so not sure what you are really asking here.
Clearly you have a much deeper knowledge of the this subject area. My comment was from why some doctors say they can't take a position of the artificial sweeteners. At least with some discussions I've listened too. I don't have references because I didn't keep notes about it at the time because my concern was other topics. I can't deeply debate the merits because my background isn't strong. I'm merely accepting the expertise of others.
There literally dozens of artificial sweeteners, although many are uncommon. In my mind the main saving grace of these compounds is that they are typically many times sweeter than even fructose, so very little of the compounds are used. There are even many acute toxins we use routinely with good results. So in fact I'm not overly concerned with the toxicity. However I think it wise to keep an mind open about that. It is becoming widely accepted that fructose is a chronic toxin in the dosage range that is typical in many modern diets. For example in the US many teens are consuming in excess of 50 g/day. I actually think artificial sweeteners offer a safer alternative to refined sugars.
I personally do us a small amount of some artificial sweeteners, although since cutting back on sugar I surprising find myself comsuming much fewer things that contain them. My perception of sweet has been changing. In fact I've found myself being turned off by some things that are just too sweet.
A little background on myself I currently work in drug development and ADME-PK is part of our repitoire for evaluating our compounds so its something I have direct experience with. Medical doctors would not have direct experience with pharmacokinetic studies so that isn't actually within their area of expertise. Its like someone who isn't a mechanic expressing concern that an electric car hasn't been thoroughly smog tested and so until they see data on smog tests for the Tesla they aren't going to purchase one. Pharmacists would probably be much more familiar with the concept of ADME-PK through their studies although again not through the practice of it. The group that would know about it through doing it would be research scientists in areas of drug development. A metabolized food additive isn't something you'd put into an ADME-PK study because there is about as much point in that as trying to smog test a Tesla. You mentioned that you listened to expertise, hopefully you are genuine there and don't mean that you listen to "expertise" only if it conforms to what you have decided to believe anyways. MDs don't have expertise there unless they are MD-PhDs who did some drug development.
You are correct about it being low amounts due to higher sweetness. Aspartame off the top of my head is something like 200 times the sweetness of fructose (I might not remember the exact number). They aren't toxins so you definately don't have to worry about toxicity. People really misuse and overuse the word toxin these days.
"It is becoming widely accepted that fructose is a chronic toxin in the dosage range that is typical in many modern diets" News to me. What is this group (scientific or medical) widely accepts fructose is a "toxin". Fructose doesn't qualify as a toxin because it does not meet the definition of a toxin which is that it has to have acute toxicity. "For example in the US many teens are consuming in excess of 50 g/day." case in point that fructose is not a toxin.
Quick aside just as an FYI. Fructose is a monosaccharide, along with glucose and galactose, fructose being a plant product. Many of the sugars we encounter in our daily lives are disaccharides, two monosaccharides linked together. Lactose is a disaccharide and is the source of sweetness in milk, the sugar found in milk, its galactose and glucose linked together. Sucrose, also a plant product, is also a disaccharide and is what we think of when we think table sugar....its glucose and fructose. You may have seen the name dextrose on ingredient labels, dextrose is just another name for glucose...same thing.
I'm more of a salt-tooth than a sweet-tooth, I like my chocolate dark as they make it. I like sweet beverages though for whatever reason. I flavor my coffee with aspartame typically. Will have a diet coke maybe a couple times a week but thats about it. I'm not trying to push artificial sweetners like they are going to help with people's health, they are a non-entity for me, they neither help nor harm. If you are on a diet and you love your sweet drinks then switching to a diet style drink is a good way to avoid some unneeded calories from a syrup, thats about it.
I very carefully used the term “chronic toxin”. There are different levels of toxicity. Most people only consider something toxic if it is acutely toxic. Many of our over the counter drugs are in the category, but the dosage is typically high for toxic effects and often the effects don't accumulate over time. Chronic toxins are completely on the other end of the spectrum. Often chronic toxin effects accumulate over time and often take decades to do their damage.
The toxic effects of fructose are depended on multiple factors but is mostly driven by how much fructose must be metabolized at a given time. Just how much is too much is a complex question with many variables. Pretty much all fructose is metabolized in the liver or is excreted. The liver has a limited capacity to handle fructose and will handle overloads by converting fructose to low density lipids. This is the same way the ethanol is metabolized, except ethanol can also pass into the brain which isn’t possible with fructose. What happens is the lipids end up being stored in the liver and that becomes a problem in multiple ways. For example uric acid is a by-product of fructose metabolism and it does have toxic properties. The lipids stored in the liver can create a condition called NonAlcoholic Fatty Liver Disease (NAFLD). NAFLD also contributes to Metabolic Syndrome. Finally, even if the lipids make their way out of the liver, they tend to added to the visceral fat, which also contributes to Metabolic Syndrome.
So in short, fructose is a dose dependent hepatic chronic toxin just like ethanol. However, unlike ethanol it doesn’t have the acute toxicity. This relationship possibly exists because ethanol is derived from fructose. (Many people in the world know how to do that.)
NAFLD just like Fatty Liver Disease leads to cirrhosis of the liver. Currently an estimated 25% of the people in the US have NAFLD. http://www.liverfoundation.org/abouttheliver/info/nafld/
Metabolic Syndrome is more complex but is estimated afflict about 1/3 of the US population. Not everyone that is obese has it and it is possible to be slim and have Metabolic Syndrome. http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nhsr/nhsr013.pdf
The cause of NAFLD is too much fructose being processed by the liver. So the number of people having that problem in the US suggests that a large number of people in the US are consuming fructose at high enough levels to encounter toxic effects from that consumption.
While the toxicity of fructose was controversial in the past it is currently more widely accepted. The controversy started well over 200 years ago. Science is catching up with the controversy. However there haven’t been any well-established links between artificial sweeteners and NAFLD or Metabolic Syndrome. (Many have tried to establish links.)
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Aaron_K123 wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »How many more years of research has to flow into the same thing for the last person to be satisfied? The consensus on aspartame is the most confident "ain't nothing wrong with it" I've ever seen in any substance.
Aspartame is far from the only artificial sweetener. Additionally the studies done are have been one sided, both pharmacokinetic and pharmacodynamics studies should be done. The problem is the FDA requirements. But why fear, the US government has never been wrong with diet or drugs!
Out of curiosity what is your familiarity with pharmacokinetic and pharmacodynamic studies? Its a rather odd request for a food additive which is rapidly metabolized and cleared. Kind of like demanding we study the properties of ice on the surface of the sun. For a compound to have measurable PK it has to be able to enter into the blood without being metabolically altered or cleared. So how, exactly, are you picturing a PK study be performed on a methylated dipeptide? Perhaps you can explain what mean and what you expect out of such a study?
ADME PK is typically performed on small molecule drugs which are orally bioavailable and do not undergo rapid metabolism. A is for asbsorption and relates to the ability of the compound to transfer from a mucosal layer such as the intestine into the blood stream for distribution. Aspartame, as an example, is not absorbed into the blood. The M in ADME is for metabolism, related to if the compound is broken down in our body or remains intact. Aspartame, as an example, is rapidly broken down into components of phenylalanine, aspartate and methanol. Di is for distribution, which is the ability of the compound to be distrubuted to different tissues via the blood. For aspartame it is metabolically broken down and not absorbed so there is no "D". E is for excretion, the removal of the compound from the blood to be excreted by the body and works in opposition to distribution. Again, for aspartame, it is metabolically broken down and not absorbed so there is nothing to excrete. Finally PK is the summation of ADME plus seeing what peak levels compound reaches in the blood or in target tissues and how long that is sustained. Of course, in the case of aspartame, can't really do PK given its just immediately broken down.
Aspartame, and the other commonly used artificial sweetners, are metabolically labile and are quickly broken down in our bodies. There is nothing to study in terms of PK so not sure what you are really asking here.
Clearly you have a much deeper knowledge of the this subject area. My comment was from why some doctors say they can't take a position of the artificial sweeteners. At least with some discussions I've listened too. I don't have references because I didn't keep notes about it at the time because my concern was other topics. I can't deeply debate the merits because my background isn't strong. I'm merely accepting the expertise of others.
There literally dozens of artificial sweeteners, although many are uncommon. In my mind the main saving grace of these compounds is that they are typically many times sweeter than even fructose, so very little of the compounds are used. There are even many acute toxins we use routinely with good results. So in fact I'm not overly concerned with the toxicity. However I think it wise to keep an mind open about that. It is becoming widely accepted that fructose is a chronic toxin in the dosage range that is typical in many modern diets. For example in the US many teens are consuming in excess of 50 g/day. I actually think artificial sweeteners offer a safer alternative to refined sugars.
I personally do us a small amount of some artificial sweeteners, although since cutting back on sugar I surprising find myself comsuming much fewer things that contain them. My perception of sweet has been changing. In fact I've found myself being turned off by some things that are just too sweet.
A little background on myself I currently work in drug development and ADME-PK is part of our repitoire for evaluating our compounds so its something I have direct experience with. Medical doctors would not have direct experience with pharmacokinetic studies so that isn't actually within their area of expertise. Its like someone who isn't a mechanic expressing concern that an electric car hasn't been thoroughly smog tested and so until they see data on smog tests for the Tesla they aren't going to purchase one. Pharmacists would probably be much more familiar with the concept of ADME-PK through their studies although again not through the practice of it. The group that would know about it through doing it would be research scientists in areas of drug development. A metabolized food additive isn't something you'd put into an ADME-PK study because there is about as much point in that as trying to smog test a Tesla. You mentioned that you listened to expertise, hopefully you are genuine there and don't mean that you listen to "expertise" only if it conforms to what you have decided to believe anyways. MDs don't have expertise there unless they are MD-PhDs who did some drug development.
You are correct about it being low amounts due to higher sweetness. Aspartame off the top of my head is something like 200 times the sweetness of fructose (I might not remember the exact number). They aren't toxins so you definately don't have to worry about toxicity. People really misuse and overuse the word toxin these days.
"It is becoming widely accepted that fructose is a chronic toxin in the dosage range that is typical in many modern diets" News to me. What is this group (scientific or medical) widely accepts fructose is a "toxin". Fructose doesn't qualify as a toxin because it does not meet the definition of a toxin which is that it has to have acute toxicity. "For example in the US many teens are consuming in excess of 50 g/day." case in point that fructose is not a toxin.
Quick aside just as an FYI. Fructose is a monosaccharide, along with glucose and galactose, fructose being a plant product. Many of the sugars we encounter in our daily lives are disaccharides, two monosaccharides linked together. Lactose is a disaccharide and is the source of sweetness in milk, the sugar found in milk, its galactose and glucose linked together. Sucrose, also a plant product, is also a disaccharide and is what we think of when we think table sugar....its glucose and fructose. You may have seen the name dextrose on ingredient labels, dextrose is just another name for glucose...same thing.
I'm more of a salt-tooth than a sweet-tooth, I like my chocolate dark as they make it. I like sweet beverages though for whatever reason. I flavor my coffee with aspartame typically. Will have a diet coke maybe a couple times a week but thats about it. I'm not trying to push artificial sweetners like they are going to help with people's health, they are a non-entity for me, they neither help nor harm. If you are on a diet and you love your sweet drinks then switching to a diet style drink is a good way to avoid some unneeded calories from a syrup, thats about it.
I very carefully used the term “chronic toxin”. There are different levels of toxicity. Most people only consider something toxic if it is acutely toxic. Many of our over the counter drugs are in the category, but the dosage is typically high for toxic effects and often the effects don't accumulate over time. Chronic toxins are completely on the other end of the spectrum. Often chronic toxin effects accumulate over time and often take decades to do their damage.
The toxic effects of fructose are depended on multiple factors but is mostly driven by how much fructose must be metabolized at a given time. Just how much is too much is a complex question with many variables. Pretty much all fructose is metabolized in the liver or is excreted. The liver has a limited capacity to handle fructose and will handle overloads by converting fructose to low density lipids. This is the same way the ethanol is metabolized, except ethanol can also pass into the brain which isn’t possible with fructose. What happens is the lipids end up being stored in the liver and that becomes a problem in multiple ways. For example uric acid is a by-product of fructose metabolism and it does have toxic properties. The lipids stored in the liver can create a condition called NonAlcoholic Fatty Liver Disease (NAFLD). NAFLD also contributes to Metabolic Syndrome. Finally, even if the lipids make their way out of the liver, they tend to added to the visceral fat, which also contributes to Metabolic Syndrome.
So in short, fructose is a dose dependent hepatic chronic toxin just like ethanol. However, unlike ethanol it doesn’t have the acute toxicity. This relationship possibly exists because ethanol is derived from fructose. (Many people in the world know how to do that.)
NAFLD just like Fatty Liver Disease leads to cirrhosis of the liver. Currently an estimated 25% of the people in the US have NAFLD. http://www.liverfoundation.org/abouttheliver/info/nafld/
Metabolic Syndrome is more complex but is estimated afflict about 1/3 of the US population. Not everyone that is obese has it and it is possible to be slim and have Metabolic Syndrome. http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nhsr/nhsr013.pdf
The cause of NAFLD is too much fructose being processed by the liver. So the number of people having that problem in the US suggests that a large number of people in the US are consuming fructose at high enough levels to encounter toxic effects from that consumption.
While the toxicity of fructose was controversial in the past it is currently more widely accepted. The controversy started well over 200 years ago. Science is catching up with the controversy. However there haven’t been any well-established links between artificial sweeteners and NAFLD or Metabolic Syndrome. (Many have tried to establish links.)
Read this, it is enlightening! Fructose is amazing!
http://sciencedrivennutrition.com/fructose/1 -
Is there a lot of fructose in diet soda?10
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diannethegeek wrote: »Is there a lot of fructose in diet soda?
There's zero in my diet Mt. Dew.4
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