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Plant protein vs animal protein- better health vs lower mortality-New research

viren19890
viren19890 Posts: 778 Member
in Debate Club
Hello all,

Just came across this research -

http://nutritionfacts.org/video/animal-protein-compared-cigarette-smoking/

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27479196


I know most here talk about animal protein being totally fine for us because all the studies related are "correlation" studies and not actual studies. So wondering what do the educated research based audience thinks about this.

If vegans are anal, I'm wondering -are meat eaters being anal too? about defending their choices above all and letting confirmation bias rule in face of good judgement and studies?

I don't advocate any diet at all because I'm not omniscient yet and I do not recommend anything and I'm just learning and more learning and getting confused more n more I learn.

So I share here and to hear opinions.

Please and thank you
«13

Replies

  • PennWalker
    PennWalker Posts: 554 Member
    Many years ago, after my late husband was diagnosed with prostate cancer, we went to a seminar about the disease at Georgetown Hospital in Washington, DC. One of the speakers, my husband's oncologist at Georgetown's Lombardi Cancer Center, said research shows that men in who live in cultures that don't eat red meat and dairy (the typical western diet) rarely get the disease -- they eat soy products, rice, fish, and vegetables (I realize the fish is not vegetarian/vegan) and are far healthier. The speaker also said that if you could stop and check every American man over 80 years old, about half would turn out to have prostate cancer. He said the disease is heavily linked to diet.
  • VeryKatie
    VeryKatie Posts: 5,961 Member
    PennWalker wrote: »
    Many years ago, after my late husband was diagnosed with prostate cancer, we went to a seminar about the disease at Georgetown Hospital in Washington, DC. One of the speakers, my husband's oncologist at Georgetown's Lombardi Cancer Center, said research shows that men in who live in cultures that don't eat red meat and dairy (the typical western diet) rarely get the disease -- they eat soy products, rice, fish, and vegetables (I realize the fish is not vegetarian/vegan) and are far healthier. The speaker also said that if you could stop and check every American man over 80 years old, about half would turn out to have prostate cancer. He said the disease is heavily linked to diet.

    This is interesting. But are there genetic markers that could also play a role here? Because there are more differences that just diet to a culture, when looking at a global perspective. Race might also have some role. There are some diseases that are more likely in some races than others. There are not a lot of Caucasian cultures that do not include meat.

    That being said, I have no idea what percentage the makeup of races are in the USA, and how his 50% of the 80 year old men would apply to that. What portion of the 50% who had cancer were Caucasian? What percent were of African decent? Asian? Etc.
  • PennWalker
    PennWalker Posts: 554 Member
    edited September 2016
    VeryKatie wrote: »
    PennWalker wrote: »
    Many years ago, after my late husband was diagnosed with prostate cancer, we went to a seminar about the disease at Georgetown Hospital in Washington, DC. One of the speakers, my husband's oncologist at Georgetown's Lombardi Cancer Center, said research shows that men in who live in cultures that don't eat red meat and dairy (the typical western diet) rarely get the disease -- they eat soy products, rice, fish, and vegetables (I realize the fish is not vegetarian/vegan) and are far healthier. The speaker also said that if you could stop and check every American man over 80 years old, about half would turn out to have prostate cancer. He said the disease is heavily linked to diet.

    This is interesting. But are there genetic markers that could also play a role here? Because there are more differences that just diet to a culture, when looking at a global perspective. Race might also have some role. There are some diseases that are more likely in some races than others. There are not a lot of Caucasian cultures that do not include meat.

    That being said, I have no idea what percentage the makeup of races are in the USA, and how his 50% of the 80 year old men would apply to that. What portion of the 50% who had cancer were Caucasian? What percent were of African decent? Asian? Etc.

    The speaker at that conference addressed your points. He said research showed that when men from cultures that did not eat a typical western diet of red meat and diary began to eat that diet (for example, Japanese who moved to the United States), they developed prostate cancer at the same rate as men in the west. He cited longterm research. His name was Dr. Gellman at the Lombardi Cancer Center/Georgetown Hospital in DC.

    Also adding that cancer strikes all races of people. Humanity doesn't have a particular race or group of races who are almost immune to the disease.

  • AngelinaB_
    AngelinaB_ Posts: 563 Member
    I want to get more to vegetarian eating but at this moment I still eat animal meat. It's a decision I don't want to take lightly as I want it to be sustainable and also be able to lose weight and not get into eating carbs all the time. My vegan/ vegetarian friends all look fabulous tho!
  • PennWalker
    PennWalker Posts: 554 Member
    I want to add one point. I mentioned cancer as one heightened risk of a diet with red meat and dairy -- because unfortunately I spent years walking the cancer road with my husband -- but there are other increased health risks, especially heart disease.

    The thing about vegetarian/vegan diets is you have to know what you're eating or it is easy to eat a lot of junk food, or fake meat products, or end up B12 deficient. I'm a big fan of lentils. One cup = 18 grams of protein, or the protein of 3 eggs.
  • ouryve
    ouryve Posts: 572 Member
    As soon as I cut out the meat and find other protein osurces, I get horrible cramps and shaky muscle weakness.

    I'm not even a hardened carnivore - a typical Christmas feast has be vowing never to eat the stuff again.

    I suspect I'm not tht unique in needing to find a comfortable middle ground.
  • ouryve
    ouryve Posts: 572 Member
    And that's gut cramps. I love lentils (it;s a bloodu huge portion for 18g of protein, mind), and eggs, but they leave me very windy.
  • PennWalker
    PennWalker Posts: 554 Member
    ouryve wrote: »
    And that's gut cramps. I love lentils (it;s a bloodu huge portion for 18g of protein, mind), and eggs, but they leave me very windy.

    That's because people lack an enzyme to digest cellulose, which is the shell of the lentil.

    You can probably get around that by soaking them or cooking them until they are mushy (and then saute in a little olive oil for taste).
  • viren19890
    viren19890 Posts: 778 Member
    VegetaSKJ wrote: »
    viren19890 wrote: »
    Hello all,

    Just came across this research -

    http://nutritionfacts.org/video/animal-protein-compared-cigarette-smoking/

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27479196


    I know most here talk about animal protein being totally fine for us because all the studies related are "correlation" studies and not actual studies. So wondering what do the educated research based audience thinks about this.

    If vegans are anal, I'm wondering -are meat eaters being anal too? about defending their choices above all and letting confirmation bias rule in face of good judgement and studies?

    I don't advocate any diet at all because I'm not omniscient yet and I do not recommend anything and I'm just learning and more learning and getting confused more n more I learn.

    So I share here and to hear opinions.

    Please and thank you

    Since you're linking to nutrition facts.org, I figure I should share some research with you:
    https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/death-as-a-foodborne-illness-curable-by-veganism/

    The extent that animal protein is carcinogenic is low, not at all comparable to cigarettes. If you're going vegan just to avoid cancer, you might as well start living indoors to avoid the sun.
    Me, I don't fear plant protein, animal protein, or the sun, if any is a threat to me, I blow it up.

    Here is a one where Animal protein is compared to Cigarette smoking.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27479196

    http://nutritionfacts.org/video/animal-protein-compared-cigarette-smoking/ - this is a video.
  • viren19890
    viren19890 Posts: 778 Member
    Please understand this. I am not saying my diet is superior or claiming anything at all. I am trying to learn. Just learn for the sake of learning. It's the most frustrating kind but that's the only kind that interests me. It allows me to keep digging deeper and deeper.

    That's why I keep getting confused the more I learn because I do not choose a side.

    Just a disclaimer: I went vegetarian (no meat,eggs or fish) not because of weight loss but because of spiritual reasons.
  • lemurcat12
    lemurcat12 Posts: 30,886 Member
    I'm really interested in this discussion, but find efforts to research it frustrating too. One problem is that it's hard to separate out increased amounts of animal protein from other dietary factors -- for example, with the China study, are areas that eat more meat also areas that are more affected by dietary changes caused by westernization or being relatively better off? Studies of vegetarian diets in the US have a hard time separating them out from other factors, like a population more likely to be concerned with health or to actually eat the recommended number of vegetables and fruits and less likely to have other dietary factors that tend to be correlated with negative results.

    I've yet to see anything that overweighs my own sense (from experimentation) that I tend to feel better including meat in my diet (and the slightly higher level of protein consumption that comes with this). I do want to keep this at a lower level rather than have animal products as a part of every (or even most) meals, and I prefer to rely on fish/seafood for a good bit of it, and to make sure it's more the side than main dish often, but a lot of this is just about preferences and what makes sense for me and how I like to eat vs. a nutrition claim I think can be defended. Sometimes it feels like everyone is all or nothing on these discussions, but of course that's not really true.
  • viren19890
    viren19890 Posts: 778 Member
    This study suggests taking protein before Strength training session would decrease GH, testosterone and FFA
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16286871 however it was based on diary protein not plant based. SO inconclusive for vegetarians.

    However, BCAA help with Protein synthesis.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18974721

    Here's one for people loading on carbs before working out.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22804876

    An injection of 75g or higher can reduce testosterone levels for 2 hours before returning to baseline lol -oh boy I've committed some sins.

  • viren19890
    viren19890 Posts: 778 Member
    edited September 2016
    lemurcat12 wrote: »
    I'm really interested in this discussion, but find efforts to research it frustrating too. One problem is that it's hard to separate out increased amounts of animal protein from other dietary factors -- for example, with the China study, are areas that eat more meat also areas that are more affected by dietary changes caused by westernization or being relatively better off? Studies of vegetarian diets in the US have a hard time separating them out from other factors, like a population more likely to be concerned with health or to actually eat the recommended number of vegetables and fruits and less likely to have other dietary factors that tend to be correlated with negative results.

    I've yet to see anything that overweighs my own sense (from experimentation) that I tend to feel better including meat in my diet (and the slightly higher level of protein consumption that comes with this). I do want to keep this at a lower level rather than have animal products as a part of every (or even most) meals, and I prefer to rely on fish/seafood for a good bit of it, and to make sure it's more the side than main dish often, but a lot of this is just about preferences and what makes sense for me and how I like to eat vs. a nutrition claim I think can be defended. Sometimes it feels like everyone is all or nothing on these discussions, but of course that's not really true.

    Very recent study posted.

    Eating beans, peas, chickpeas or lentils may help lose weight and keep it off

    http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/103/5/1213

    https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/03/160330135255.htm

    Not going in a deficit just an additional serving.

    For what it's worth- I have yet to see similar studies produced for meat products. 
  • JeromeBarry1
    JeromeBarry1 Posts: 10,179 Member
    "These associations were confined to participants with at least 1 unhealthy lifestyle factor based on smoking, heavy alcohol intake, overweight or obesity, and physical inactivity, but not evident among those without any of these risk factors."

    What the http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27479196 is saying is that you can choose to have any of these unhealthy lifestyle factors and shazam, you'll die, maybe. Of the many thousands of people in the study, none of those who died admitted to any of those unhealthy lifestyle factors. This neither confirms nor denies either side of the non-existent debate over protein sourcing.
  • lemurcat12
    lemurcat12 Posts: 30,886 Member
    edited September 2016
    viren19890 wrote: »
    lemurcat12 wrote: »
    I'm really interested in this discussion, but find efforts to research it frustrating too. One problem is that it's hard to separate out increased amounts of animal protein from other dietary factors -- for example, with the China study, are areas that eat more meat also areas that are more affected by dietary changes caused by westernization or being relatively better off? Studies of vegetarian diets in the US have a hard time separating them out from other factors, like a population more likely to be concerned with health or to actually eat the recommended number of vegetables and fruits and less likely to have other dietary factors that tend to be correlated with negative results.

    I've yet to see anything that overweighs my own sense (from experimentation) that I tend to feel better including meat in my diet (and the slightly higher level of protein consumption that comes with this). I do want to keep this at a lower level rather than have animal products as a part of every (or even most) meals, and I prefer to rely on fish/seafood for a good bit of it, and to make sure it's more the side than main dish often, but a lot of this is just about preferences and what makes sense for me and how I like to eat vs. a nutrition claim I think can be defended. Sometimes it feels like everyone is all or nothing on these discussions, but of course that's not really true.

    Very recent study posted.

    Eating beans, peas, chickpeas or lentils may help lose weight and keep it off

    http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/103/5/1213

    https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/03/160330135255.htm

    You do know that people who eat meat ALSO eat those foods, right?

    I'm not all that surprised, in that they are high in fiber, and adding them to someone's diet who is basically eating the SAD would probably make it more filling, on average.
  • gothchiq
    gothchiq Posts: 4,590 Member
    Meh... I tried going vegetarian once out of curiosity. I was careful to still get protein, and I took iron pills, BUT I felt like crap, lethargic and weak, and still became anemic. I am an omnivore and plan to stay that way for life.
  • PennWalker
    PennWalker Posts: 554 Member
    viren19890 wrote: »
    Just a disclaimer: I went vegetarian (no meat,eggs or fish) not because of weight loss but because of spiritual reasons.

    That was my reason for becoming a vegetarian, too. Not to offend anyone here, but I watched a film about how chickens are treated in factory farms and I never ate chicken again.

    The other thing I think about, which is sort of in the spiritual area, is the amount of land and water resources to end up with one pound of beef versus one pound of lentils or other beans. We are suffering droughts in the United States. As the population in the world grows and grows, how sustainable are our traditional farming methods?

  • jgnatca
    jgnatca Posts: 14,464 Member
    PennWalker wrote: »
    VeryKatie wrote: »
    PennWalker wrote: »
    Many years ago, after my late husband was diagnosed with prostate cancer, we went to a seminar about the disease at Georgetown Hospital in Washington, DC. One of the speakers, my husband's oncologist at Georgetown's Lombardi Cancer Center, said research shows that men in who live in cultures that don't eat red meat and dairy (the typical western diet) rarely get the disease -- they eat soy products, rice, fish, and vegetables (I realize the fish is not vegetarian/vegan) and are far healthier. The speaker also said that if you could stop and check every American man over 80 years old, about half would turn out to have prostate cancer. He said the disease is heavily linked to diet.

    This is interesting. But are there genetic markers that could also play a role here? Because there are more differences that just diet to a culture, when looking at a global perspective. Race might also have some role. There are some diseases that are more likely in some races than others. There are not a lot of Caucasian cultures that do not include meat.

    That being said, I have no idea what percentage the makeup of races are in the USA, and how his 50% of the 80 year old men would apply to that. What portion of the 50% who had cancer were Caucasian? What percent were of African decent? Asian? Etc.

    The speaker at that conference addressed your points. He said research showed that when men from cultures that did not eat a typical western diet of red meat and diary began to eat that diet (for example, Japanese who moved to the United States), they developed prostate cancer at the same rate as men in the west. He cited longterm research. His name was Dr. Gellman at the Lombardi Cancer Center/Georgetown Hospital in DC.

    Also adding that cancer strikes all races of people. Humanity doesn't have a particular race or group of races who are almost immune to the disease.

    There is a particular group of people who do seem to have an immunity to both diabetes and cancer.

    http://www.medicaldaily.com/ecuadorian-dwarfs-have-genetic-mutation-protects-disease-diet-mimics-it-384729
  • PennWalker
    PennWalker Posts: 554 Member
    jgnatca wrote: »
    There is a particular group of people who do seem to have an immunity to both diabetes and cancer.

    http://www.medicaldaily.com/ecuadorian-dwarfs-have-genetic-mutation-protects-disease-diet-mimics-it-384729

    That's interesting. Thanks for posting it.

  • mrbumblepants
    mrbumblepants Posts: 17 Member
    From what I've read, humans seem to be able to live on a variety of diets, provided there's enough variety and the right amounts of nutrition. It seems like relying solely on soy and a lot of the typical ready made mock meats is not good, but switching it up with things like beans would be fine. There doesn't seem to be a good consensus either way about whether a ton of soy is good or bad, but it's getting easier to avoid all soy if you really want your mock meats.
  • Unknown
    Unknown
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  • viren19890
    viren19890 Posts: 778 Member
    Thanks all for posting.

    I always learn something new. The reason why I learn is so that I can share information which is accurate and not hogwash which I learned reading bodybuilding forums. You cannot believe how much money I've spent in supplements.

    I still feel guilty when I eat chips because the "bad food" concept hammered into my head since I realized I had a head. Although that is also the same reason due to which I was never obese lol -so blessing in a disguise.

    So i'm grateful for bad knowledge as well because without that I wouldn't have been able to learn what's accurate.
    It is easier for a child to understand good food vs bad instead of logging calories and CICO lol so I think parents did the right thing and also not like they knew better.

    I'm fun at parties now eh- vegans look at me with death stare when they feel like a fellow vegetarian betrayed them when he stands up for animal protein is fine haha
    I don't know about environmental issues so I don't get into that and remain strictly with health related issues.
  • viren19890
    viren19890 Posts: 778 Member
    VegetaSKJ wrote: »
    viren19890 wrote: »
    Hello all,

    Just came across this research -

    http://nutritionfacts.org/video/animal-protein-compared-cigarette-smoking/

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27479196


    I know most here talk about animal protein being totally fine for us because all the studies related are "correlation" studies and not actual studies. So wondering what do the educated research based audience thinks about this.

    If vegans are anal, I'm wondering -are meat eaters being anal too? about defending their choices above all and letting confirmation bias rule in face of good judgement and studies?

    I don't advocate any diet at all because I'm not omniscient yet and I do not recommend anything and I'm just learning and more learning and getting confused more n more I learn.

    So I share here and to hear opinions.

    Please and thank you

    Since you're linking to nutrition facts.org, I figure I should share some research with you:
    https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/death-as-a-foodborne-illness-curable-by-veganism/

    The extent that animal protein is carcinogenic is low, not at all comparable to cigarettes. If you're going vegan just to avoid cancer, you might as well start living indoors to avoid the sun.
    Me, I don't fear plant protein, animal protein, or the sun, if any is a threat to me, I blow it up.

    Oh bro, btw they posted a response for what you posted.

    http://donmatesz.blogspot.ca/2013/02/harriet-halls-critique-of-gregers.html
  • viren19890
    viren19890 Posts: 778 Member
    Basically a critique of the critique for the original critique - one could say Criti-que-ception!
  • viren19890
    viren19890 Posts: 778 Member
    VegetaSKJ wrote: »
    viren19890 wrote: »
    Hello all,

    Just came across this research -

    http://nutritionfacts.org/video/animal-protein-compared-cigarette-smoking/

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27479196


    I know most here talk about animal protein being totally fine for us because all the studies related are "correlation" studies and not actual studies. So wondering what do the educated research based audience thinks about this.

    If vegans are anal, I'm wondering -are meat eaters being anal too? about defending their choices above all and letting confirmation bias rule in face of good judgement and studies?

    I don't advocate any diet at all because I'm not omniscient yet and I do not recommend anything and I'm just learning and more learning and getting confused more n more I learn.

    So I share here and to hear opinions.

    Please and thank you

    Since you're linking to nutrition facts.org, I figure I should share some research with you:
    https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/death-as-a-foodborne-illness-curable-by-veganism/

    The extent that animal protein is carcinogenic is low, not at all comparable to cigarettes. If you're going vegan just to avoid cancer, you might as well start living indoors to avoid the sun.
    Me, I don't fear plant protein, animal protein, or the sun, if any is a threat to me, I blow it up.

    Sorry for re-quoting you but please read the article on critique of the critique. It makes some good points.
    Also, please keep in mind this is a discussion/debate not here to prove I'm right or anything just to learn that's it.

    Link again

    http://donmatesz.blogspot.ca/2013/02/harriet-halls-critique-of-gregers.html

  • viren19890
    viren19890 Posts: 778 Member
    This all is making me re-think my LCHF diet again-took me so long to accept that fat is just fat no good or bad like carbs but no! Things keep evolving.

    People I feel like there is three sides to all this - one is the side of who consume certain foods vs one who doesn't and then the third which is seeking the truth getting torn apart lol
  • 1454ever
    1454ever Posts: 3 Member
    PennWalker wrote: »
    viren19890 wrote: »
    ...The other thing I think about, which is sort of in the spiritual area, is the amount of land and water resources to end up with one pound of beef versus one pound of lentils or other beans. We are suffering droughts in the United States. As the population in the world grows and grows, how sustainable are our traditional farming methods?

    I agree and this is why I "gave up the cow" and am nearly completely a plant-based eater. I have a hard time supporting an industry that is so devastating to the EARTH - not just the USA. I like eating plants. I feel good and energetic. My digestion is happy. My doctor tells me I am super healthy and to keep it up. I never got pats on the head like that when I was an omni.

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