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Plant protein vs animal protein- better health vs lower mortality-New research
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jillybeansalad wrote: »I feel like omnivore and plant-based diets can both be healthy or not healthy. Despite their definitions, they still aren't specific enough to claim either.
I do believe that we are meant to be omnivores (check out our teeth and related species), but I've still chosen to be vegetarian. Being able to make informed decisions makes it possible (and living in a first world country where I have access to almost any food/information).
Vegans state the same thing you did that in a different context lol
That our intestines and teeth aren't meant for meat and all then a chart follows which compares us to plant eating species and we have identical organs. Sorry can't recall where I saw this. Probably a video on youtube.0 -
viren19890 wrote: »PennWalker wrote: »viren19890 wrote: »This all is making me re-think my LCHF diet again-took me so long to accept that fat is just fat no good or bad like carbs but no! Things keep evolving.
People I feel like there is three sides to all this - one is the side of who consume certain foods vs one who doesn't and then the third which is seeking the truth getting torn apart lol
I haven't read all the comments, but just want to say we need some fat in our diets. Fat has many purposes. I have high cholesterol and am learning how to reduce it -- I was told that good fats will remove some bad fats from our bodies that contribute to cardiovascular disease. I've added avocado and olive oil to my diet, which both have good fat (I just have to watch the calories, especially in the avocado).
You should join the LCHF group on MFP - it'll help you understand a lot of things. From the intensive learning experience I went through- I've come to understand no such thing as good fat or bad fat lol same as carbs. Also cholesterol isn't good or bad either and apparently fat in foods don't influence that.
I may not be explaining it correctly so forgive me. Body makes majority of the cholesterol on its own so why would it make something that would harm it? So basically it was industry tactic to sell certain drugs related to heart and since the 0 fat craze started -heart related deaths also increased. Ok i'm really going out of depth here and I'll stop.
Thanks for the suggestion about the LCHF group on MFP. I don't think I would fit that group because I am a vegetarian and most of what I eat has carbs.
I was just diagnosed with high cholesterol. My doctor told me the numbers put me at high risk for a heart attack or stroke and put me on medicine. He used the terms good and bad fat. I understand where you are coming from saying there is no such thing as good or bad fat or carbs etc., but right now I am going to use his terms and guidelines until I am healthier.
I understand that only a small amount of cholesterol comes from diet and most of it comes from our bodies, but being overweight influences how much our bodies make.
Intellectually, I can say there are no bad carbs, but junk food with heavy sugar and fats is bad for me because I can't control how much I eat. If I get my weight down, my cholesterol numbers should go down, too.0 -
viren19890 wrote: »Vegans state the same thing you did that in a different context lol
That our intestines and teeth aren't meant for meat and all then a chart follows which compares us to plant eating species and we have identical organs. Sorry can't recall where I saw this. Probably a video on youtube.
I've heard it too, but I'm not sure on the source or the reliability of said source.
But if you compare us with apes, they are opportunists and will certainly eat meat if given the opportunity. I think we may overeat meat, but I would never conclude that we are straight-up herbivores. We are highly adaptive creatures, which is why we've been so successful.
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PennWalker wrote: »viren19890 wrote: »PennWalker wrote: »viren19890 wrote: »This all is making me re-think my LCHF diet again-took me so long to accept that fat is just fat no good or bad like carbs but no! Things keep evolving.
People I feel like there is three sides to all this - one is the side of who consume certain foods vs one who doesn't and then the third which is seeking the truth getting torn apart lol
I haven't read all the comments, but just want to say we need some fat in our diets. Fat has many purposes. I have high cholesterol and am learning how to reduce it -- I was told that good fats will remove some bad fats from our bodies that contribute to cardiovascular disease. I've added avocado and olive oil to my diet, which both have good fat (I just have to watch the calories, especially in the avocado).
You should join the LCHF group on MFP - it'll help you understand a lot of things. From the intensive learning experience I went through- I've come to understand no such thing as good fat or bad fat lol same as carbs. Also cholesterol isn't good or bad either and apparently fat in foods don't influence that.
I may not be explaining it correctly so forgive me. Body makes majority of the cholesterol on its own so why would it make something that would harm it? So basically it was industry tactic to sell certain drugs related to heart and since the 0 fat craze started -heart related deaths also increased. Ok i'm really going out of depth here and I'll stop.
Thanks for the suggestion about the LCHF group on MFP. I don't think I would fit that group because I am a vegetarian and most of what I eat has carbs.
I was just diagnosed with high cholesterol. My doctor told me the numbers put me at high risk for a heart attack or stroke and put me on medicine. He used the terms good and bad fat. I understand where you are coming from saying there is no such thing as good or bad fat or carbs etc., but right now I am going to use his terms and guidelines until I am healthier.
I understand that only a small amount of cholesterol comes from diet and most of it comes from our bodies, but being overweight influences how much our bodies make.
Intellectually, I can say there are no bad carbs, but junk food with heavy sugar and fats is bad for me because I can't control how much I eat. If I get my weight down, my cholesterol numbers should go down, too.
I'm a vegetarian too although i don't eat (meat/eggs/seafood)
I was fine on Keto diet with vegetables. YOu have to be a just a little careful but most vegetables have lots of fibers and that doesn't count towards Carbs. So net carbs are the sugar but if carb is in form of fiber then it don't count.
I had to install a special script on my computer so mfp would show net carbs instead of regular carbs.
You could however do manual subtraction of total daily fiber from carbs and maintain it below 50g if you are an inactive individual. I was very active and but I still maintained it below 40g per day cause most veggies I ate were fiber filled.
Also, I kept the food same for the period I did keto. (so do what is sustainable for you and which you won't mind doing for life). I will be back on carbs in few days because I'm at ideal weight and I'd like carbs back in my life. I miss rice so much lol0 -
I haven't read all the posts on this thread so apologies if this has already been stated but I've heard that the small difference in mortality between meat eaters and vegetarians is probably due to processed meat alone.1
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The trouble with human health studies is that they are population studies, while humans are individuals. That being said, I went vegan 20 years ago to avoid the heart disease that plagues my family. Genetics? Perhaps. All I know is that well into my 50s now, my cholesterol is still pretty low (160ish) while the rest of my family has high cholesterol. Will I avoid heart disease? Cancer? Maybe. It has certainly helped me to keep my weight down. I exercise a lot, too, which keeps my HDL high and my LDL low. While there are conflicting studies, I think the science is most supportive of a low animal protein diet.
Those of you saying that you felt bad on a vegan diet, I have to wonder what you were eating and whether you were getting enough calories. It can be difficult at first, but once you learn your way around, it gets pretty easy. Also, people need vastly less protein than they think.5 -
viren19890 wrote: »PennWalker wrote: »viren19890 wrote: »PennWalker wrote: »viren19890 wrote: »This all is making me re-think my LCHF diet again-took me so long to accept that fat is just fat no good or bad like carbs but no! Things keep evolving.
People I feel like there is three sides to all this - one is the side of who consume certain foods vs one who doesn't and then the third which is seeking the truth getting torn apart lol
I haven't read all the comments, but just want to say we need some fat in our diets. Fat has many purposes. I have high cholesterol and am learning how to reduce it -- I was told that good fats will remove some bad fats from our bodies that contribute to cardiovascular disease. I've added avocado and olive oil to my diet, which both have good fat (I just have to watch the calories, especially in the avocado).
You should join the LCHF group on MFP - it'll help you understand a lot of things. From the intensive learning experience I went through- I've come to understand no such thing as good fat or bad fat lol same as carbs. Also cholesterol isn't good or bad either and apparently fat in foods don't influence that.
I may not be explaining it correctly so forgive me. Body makes majority of the cholesterol on its own so why would it make something that would harm it? So basically it was industry tactic to sell certain drugs related to heart and since the 0 fat craze started -heart related deaths also increased. Ok i'm really going out of depth here and I'll stop.
Thanks for the suggestion about the LCHF group on MFP. I don't think I would fit that group because I am a vegetarian and most of what I eat has carbs.
I was just diagnosed with high cholesterol. My doctor told me the numbers put me at high risk for a heart attack or stroke and put me on medicine. He used the terms good and bad fat. I understand where you are coming from saying there is no such thing as good or bad fat or carbs etc., but right now I am going to use his terms and guidelines until I am healthier.
I understand that only a small amount of cholesterol comes from diet and most of it comes from our bodies, but being overweight influences how much our bodies make.
Intellectually, I can say there are no bad carbs, but junk food with heavy sugar and fats is bad for me because I can't control how much I eat. If I get my weight down, my cholesterol numbers should go down, too.
I'm a vegetarian too although i don't eat (meat/eggs/seafood)
I was fine on Keto diet with vegetables. YOu have to be a just a little careful but most vegetables have lots of fibers and that doesn't count towards Carbs. So net carbs are the sugar but if carb is in form of fiber then it don't count.
I had to install a special script on my computer so mfp would show net carbs instead of regular carbs.
You could however do manual subtraction of total daily fiber from carbs and maintain it below 50g if you are an inactive individual. I was very active and but I still maintained it below 40g per day cause most veggies I ate were fiber filled.
Also, I kept the food same for the period I did keto. (so do what is sustainable for you and which you won't mind doing for life). I will be back on carbs in few days because I'm at ideal weight and I'd like carbs back in my life. I miss rice so much lol
Thanks for the reply. My problem is junk food, which I can't control eating, and food like sugary, high-calorie yogurt. I can buy 10 Greek yogurts and will eat them all in 2 days (150 calories each plus loads of sugar) so I have stopped buying them. Not eating that stuff at all works better for me than trying to eat in moderation.
I am losing weight on a regular basis and all my numbers (blood pressure etc.) are great. I am not super active or inactive -- since July 15 I have been walking one or two 5Ks a day (on a treadmill, not in the real world. I can't run -- I get twinges in my knee -- so I just walk.
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Vladimirnapkin wrote: »The trouble with human health studies is that they are population studies, while humans are individuals. That being said, I went vegan 20 years ago to avoid the heart disease that plagues my family. Genetics? Perhaps. All I know is that well into my 50s now, my cholesterol is still pretty low (160ish) while the rest of my family has high cholesterol. Will I avoid heart disease? Cancer? Maybe. It has certainly helped me to keep my weight down. I exercise a lot, too, which keeps my HDL high and my LDL low. While there are conflicting studies, I think the science is most supportive of a low animal protein diet.
Those of you saying that you felt bad on a vegan diet, I have to wonder what you were eating and whether you were getting enough calories. It can be difficult at first, but once you learn your way around, it gets pretty easy. Also, people need vastly less protein than they think.
This is a great post and true to my experience with vegans I personally know. Thanks for posting it. The only thing that's hard about going vegan is it can very hard to eat in a restaurant with other people, but that's not a bad tradeoff for good health.0 -
viren19890 wrote: »PennWalker wrote: »viren19890 wrote: »This all is making me re-think my LCHF diet again-took me so long to accept that fat is just fat no good or bad like carbs but no! Things keep evolving.
People I feel like there is three sides to all this - one is the side of who consume certain foods vs one who doesn't and then the third which is seeking the truth getting torn apart lol
I haven't read all the comments, but just want to say we need some fat in our diets. Fat has many purposes. I have high cholesterol and am learning how to reduce it -- I was told that good fats will remove some bad fats from our bodies that contribute to cardiovascular disease. I've added avocado and olive oil to my diet, which both have good fat (I just have to watch the calories, especially in the avocado).
You should join the LCHF group on MFP - it'll help you understand a lot of things. From the intensive learning experience I went through- I've come to understand no such thing as good fat or bad fat lol same as carbs. Also cholesterol isn't good or bad either and apparently fat in foods don't influence that.
I may not be explaining it correctly so forgive me. Body makes majority of the cholesterol on its own so why would it make something that would harm it? So basically it was industry tactic to sell certain drugs related to heart and since the 0 fat craze started -heart related deaths also increased. Ok i'm really going out of depth here and I'll stop.
The human body makes a number of compounds that do harm it, but are themselves necessary for function or are unavoidable byproducts of producing other reactions that are necessary for function. That logic does not follow.
The earlier issues with high cholesterol/high fat were from the medical and pharma communities reacting to correlation data and developing treatments and recommendations as though it was a foregone conclusion that the relationship was causal. It's a pretty good example of the correlation != causation (even if the correlation looks really strong!) trap that we tend to fall into repeatedly.
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PennWalker wrote: »viren19890 wrote: »PennWalker wrote: »viren19890 wrote: »PennWalker wrote: »viren19890 wrote: »This all is making me re-think my LCHF diet again-took me so long to accept that fat is just fat no good or bad like carbs but no! Things keep evolving.
People I feel like there is three sides to all this - one is the side of who consume certain foods vs one who doesn't and then the third which is seeking the truth getting torn apart lol
I haven't read all the comments, but just want to say we need some fat in our diets. Fat has many purposes. I have high cholesterol and am learning how to reduce it -- I was told that good fats will remove some bad fats from our bodies that contribute to cardiovascular disease. I've added avocado and olive oil to my diet, which both have good fat (I just have to watch the calories, especially in the avocado).
You should join the LCHF group on MFP - it'll help you understand a lot of things. From the intensive learning experience I went through- I've come to understand no such thing as good fat or bad fat lol same as carbs. Also cholesterol isn't good or bad either and apparently fat in foods don't influence that.
I may not be explaining it correctly so forgive me. Body makes majority of the cholesterol on its own so why would it make something that would harm it? So basically it was industry tactic to sell certain drugs related to heart and since the 0 fat craze started -heart related deaths also increased. Ok i'm really going out of depth here and I'll stop.
Thanks for the suggestion about the LCHF group on MFP. I don't think I would fit that group because I am a vegetarian and most of what I eat has carbs.
I was just diagnosed with high cholesterol. My doctor told me the numbers put me at high risk for a heart attack or stroke and put me on medicine. He used the terms good and bad fat. I understand where you are coming from saying there is no such thing as good or bad fat or carbs etc., but right now I am going to use his terms and guidelines until I am healthier.
I understand that only a small amount of cholesterol comes from diet and most of it comes from our bodies, but being overweight influences how much our bodies make.
Intellectually, I can say there are no bad carbs, but junk food with heavy sugar and fats is bad for me because I can't control how much I eat. If I get my weight down, my cholesterol numbers should go down, too.
I'm a vegetarian too although i don't eat (meat/eggs/seafood)
I was fine on Keto diet with vegetables. YOu have to be a just a little careful but most vegetables have lots of fibers and that doesn't count towards Carbs. So net carbs are the sugar but if carb is in form of fiber then it don't count.
I had to install a special script on my computer so mfp would show net carbs instead of regular carbs.
You could however do manual subtraction of total daily fiber from carbs and maintain it below 50g if you are an inactive individual. I was very active and but I still maintained it below 40g per day cause most veggies I ate were fiber filled.
Also, I kept the food same for the period I did keto. (so do what is sustainable for you and which you won't mind doing for life). I will be back on carbs in few days because I'm at ideal weight and I'd like carbs back in my life. I miss rice so much lol
Thanks for the reply. My problem is junk food, which I can't control eating, and food like sugary, high-calorie yogurt. I can buy 10 Greek yogurts and will eat them all in 2 days (150 calories each plus loads of sugar) so I have stopped buying them. Not eating that stuff at all works better for me than trying to eat in moderation.
I am losing weight on a regular basis and all my numbers (blood pressure etc.) are great. I am not super active or inactive -- since July 15 I have been walking one or two 5Ks a day (on a treadmill, not in the real world. I can't run -- I get twinges in my knee -- so I just walk.
Yeah, that's all what matters. Doing what falls in alignment with your lifestyle in journey towards better health.
I, draink high fat smoothies for breakfast and you are right the yogurt is carb laden. I had a hard time finding 10% fat yogurts lol but I did make them fit.
Good job on coming this far!1 -
viren19890 wrote: »PennWalker wrote: »viren19890 wrote: »PennWalker wrote: »viren19890 wrote: »PennWalker wrote: »viren19890 wrote: »This all is making me re-think my LCHF diet again-took me so long to accept that fat is just fat no good or bad like carbs but no! Things keep evolving.
People I feel like there is three sides to all this - one is the side of who consume certain foods vs one who doesn't and then the third which is seeking the truth getting torn apart lol
I haven't read all the comments, but just want to say we need some fat in our diets. Fat has many purposes. I have high cholesterol and am learning how to reduce it -- I was told that good fats will remove some bad fats from our bodies that contribute to cardiovascular disease. I've added avocado and olive oil to my diet, which both have good fat (I just have to watch the calories, especially in the avocado).
You should join the LCHF group on MFP - it'll help you understand a lot of things. From the intensive learning experience I went through- I've come to understand no such thing as good fat or bad fat lol same as carbs. Also cholesterol isn't good or bad either and apparently fat in foods don't influence that.
I may not be explaining it correctly so forgive me. Body makes majority of the cholesterol on its own so why would it make something that would harm it? So basically it was industry tactic to sell certain drugs related to heart and since the 0 fat craze started -heart related deaths also increased. Ok i'm really going out of depth here and I'll stop.
Thanks for the suggestion about the LCHF group on MFP. I don't think I would fit that group because I am a vegetarian and most of what I eat has carbs.
I was just diagnosed with high cholesterol. My doctor told me the numbers put me at high risk for a heart attack or stroke and put me on medicine. He used the terms good and bad fat. I understand where you are coming from saying there is no such thing as good or bad fat or carbs etc., but right now I am going to use his terms and guidelines until I am healthier.
I understand that only a small amount of cholesterol comes from diet and most of it comes from our bodies, but being overweight influences how much our bodies make.
Intellectually, I can say there are no bad carbs, but junk food with heavy sugar and fats is bad for me because I can't control how much I eat. If I get my weight down, my cholesterol numbers should go down, too.
I'm a vegetarian too although i don't eat (meat/eggs/seafood)
I was fine on Keto diet with vegetables. YOu have to be a just a little careful but most vegetables have lots of fibers and that doesn't count towards Carbs. So net carbs are the sugar but if carb is in form of fiber then it don't count.
I had to install a special script on my computer so mfp would show net carbs instead of regular carbs.
You could however do manual subtraction of total daily fiber from carbs and maintain it below 50g if you are an inactive individual. I was very active and but I still maintained it below 40g per day cause most veggies I ate were fiber filled.
Also, I kept the food same for the period I did keto. (so do what is sustainable for you and which you won't mind doing for life). I will be back on carbs in few days because I'm at ideal weight and I'd like carbs back in my life. I miss rice so much lol
Thanks for the reply. My problem is junk food, which I can't control eating, and food like sugary, high-calorie yogurt. I can buy 10 Greek yogurts and will eat them all in 2 days (150 calories each plus loads of sugar) so I have stopped buying them. Not eating that stuff at all works better for me than trying to eat in moderation.
I am losing weight on a regular basis and all my numbers (blood pressure etc.) are great. I am not super active or inactive -- since July 15 I have been walking one or two 5Ks a day (on a treadmill, not in the real world. I can't run -- I get twinges in my knee -- so I just walk.
Yeah, that's all what matters. Doing what falls in alignment with your lifestyle in journey towards better health.
I, draink high fat smoothies for breakfast and you are right the yogurt is carb laden. I had a hard time finding 10% fat yogurts lol but I did make them fit.
Good job on coming this far!
Good job to you also for finding what works and being willing to experiment!1 -
Honestly, its the over consumption of processed meats that are bad for you. The problem is more and more meat is being processed. That and we are eating more meat today than ever before. Just go vegetarian once or twice a week and make sure your portion sizes aren't too high.
http://www.pcrm.org/health/cancer-resources/diet-cancer/facts/meat-consumption-and-cancer-risk0 -
Original research
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/101/6/1320S.full
Below is follow up
A high protein diet (3.4 g/kg/d) combined with a heavy resistance training program improves body composition in healthy trained men and women – a follow-up investigation
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4617900/
So this one shows apparently protein is far more important than carbs or fats during weight loss. They do not state if it were plant or animal based although it states that high protein diet has no deleterious effects.
This particular source warns against protein coming from animal source due to acidic nature of it.
https://nutritionandmetabolism.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1743-7075-11-530 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »I'm really interested in this discussion, but find efforts to research it frustrating too. One problem is that it's hard to separate out increased amounts of animal protein from other dietary factors -- for example, with the China study, are areas that eat more meat also areas that are more affected by dietary changes caused by westernization or being relatively better off? Studies of vegetarian diets in the US have a hard time separating them out from other factors, like a population more likely to be concerned with health or to actually eat the recommended number of vegetables and fruits and less likely to have other dietary factors that tend to be correlated with negative results.
I've yet to see anything that overweighs my own sense (from experimentation) that I tend to feel better including meat in my diet (and the slightly higher level of protein consumption that comes with this). I do want to keep this at a lower level rather than have animal products as a part of every (or even most) meals, and I prefer to rely on fish/seafood for a good bit of it, and to make sure it's more the side than main dish often, but a lot of this is just about preferences and what makes sense for me and how I like to eat vs. a nutrition claim I think can be defended. Sometimes it feels like everyone is all or nothing on these discussions, but of course that's not really true.
I'd say we're pretty similar on this.1 -
OT Is anyone else seeing The Unknown Poster? Why is s/he there? Why is s/he always the last poster in this thread?
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OT Is anyone else seeing The Unknown Poster? Why is s/he there? Why is s/he always the last poster in this thread?singingflutelady wrote: »PennWalker wrote: »
Most likely a bug in coding which displays that error. If it were an actual person the comment won't be the last one all the time.0 -
Huh. Well, I was vegetarian (not ever vegan) for 20 years, but cholesterol is better with fish and limited meats in the diet, and I find it more convenient having more choices. Red meat less often than once a week for me, though. Less often than once a month, actually. Chicken or turkey usually a couple times a week, same with fish, usually get a meat item when we go out to eat. Most meals I make at home are still vegetarian, unless I get a specific request from someone; and all of the meals made by the oldest daughter are vegetarian by default because she is.
I think it's another situation where moderation is key - eating some meat is probably fine, it's nutritious, but eating it all the time isn't. Like drinking, yes? A few drinks a week, probably fine, it's relaxing and celebratory. Every day? Probably not good for you.0 -
Genetics for cancer is a small role it's mostly on what we eat. I had breast cancer and I was way overweight for many years eating the Western Diet (SAD DIET) standard American diet. I have turned my diet around to mostly a whole foods plant based diet 95% vegan and YES I get plenty of protein!1
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