Plant protein vs animal protein- better health vs lower mortality-New research

jgnatca

PennWalker wrote: »

VeryKatie wrote: »

PennWalker wrote: »

Many years ago, after my late husband was diagnosed with prostate cancer, we went to a seminar about the disease at Georgetown Hospital in Washington, DC. One of the speakers, my husband's oncologist at Georgetown's Lombardi Cancer Center, said research shows that men in who live in cultures that don't eat red meat and dairy (the typical western diet) rarely get the disease -- they eat soy products, rice, fish, and vegetables (I realize the fish is not vegetarian/vegan) and are far healthier. The speaker also said that if you could stop and check every American man over 80 years old, about half would turn out to have prostate cancer. He said the disease is heavily linked to diet.

This is interesting. But are there genetic markers that could also play a role here? Because there are more differences that just diet to a culture, when looking at a global perspective. Race might also have some role. There are some diseases that are more likely in some races than others. There are not a lot of Caucasian cultures that do not include meat.

That being said, I have no idea what percentage the makeup of races are in the USA, and how his 50% of the 80 year old men would apply to that. What portion of the 50% who had cancer were Caucasian? What percent were of African decent? Asian? Etc.

The speaker at that conference addressed your points. He said research showed that when men from cultures that did not eat a typical western diet of red meat and diary began to eat that diet (for example, Japanese who moved to the United States), they developed prostate cancer at the same rate as men in the west. He cited longterm research. His name was Dr. Gellman at the Lombardi Cancer Center/Georgetown Hospital in DC.

Also adding that cancer strikes all races of people. Humanity doesn't have a particular race or group of races who are almost immune to the disease.

There is a particular group of people who do seem to have an immunity to both diabetes and cancer.

http://www.medicaldaily.com/ecuadorian-dwarfs-have-genetic-mutation-protects-disease-diet-mimics-it-384729

PennWalker

jgnatca wrote: »

There is a particular group of people who do seem to have an immunity to both diabetes and cancer.

http://www.medicaldaily.com/ecuadorian-dwarfs-have-genetic-mutation-protects-disease-diet-mimics-it-384729

That's interesting. Thanks for posting it.

mrbumblepants

From what I've read, humans seem to be able to live on a variety of diets, provided there's enough variety and the right amounts of nutrition. It seems like relying solely on soy and a lot of the typical ready made mock meats is not good, but switching it up with things like beans would be fine. There doesn't seem to be a good consensus either way about whether a ton of soy is good or bad, but it's getting easier to avoid all soy if you really want your mock meats.

viren19890

Thanks all for posting.

I always learn something new. The reason why I learn is so that I can share information which is accurate and not hogwash which I learned reading bodybuilding forums. You cannot believe how much money I've spent in supplements.

I still feel guilty when I eat chips because the "bad food" concept hammered into my head since I realized I had a head. Although that is also the same reason due to which I was never obese lol -so blessing in a disguise.

So i'm grateful for bad knowledge as well because without that I wouldn't have been able to learn what's accurate.
It is easier for a child to understand good food vs bad instead of logging calories and CICO lol so I think parents did the right thing and also not like they knew better.

I'm fun at parties now eh- vegans look at me with death stare when they feel like a fellow vegetarian betrayed them when he stands up for animal protein is fine haha
I don't know about environmental issues so I don't get into that and remain strictly with health related issues.

viren19890

VegetaSKJ wrote: »

viren19890 wrote: »

Hello all,

Just came across this research -

http://nutritionfacts.org/video/animal-protein-compared-cigarette-smoking/

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27479196


I know most here talk about animal protein being totally fine for us because all the studies related are "correlation" studies and not actual studies. So wondering what do the educated research based audience thinks about this.

If vegans are anal, I'm wondering -are meat eaters being anal too? about defending their choices above all and letting confirmation bias rule in face of good judgement and studies?

I don't advocate any diet at all because I'm not omniscient yet and I do not recommend anything and I'm just learning and more learning and getting confused more n more I learn.

So I share here and to hear opinions.

Please and thank you

Since you're linking to nutrition facts.org, I figure I should share some research with you:
https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/death-as-a-foodborne-illness-curable-by-veganism/

The extent that animal protein is carcinogenic is low, not at all comparable to cigarettes. If you're going vegan just to avoid cancer, you might as well start living indoors to avoid the sun.
Me, I don't fear plant protein, animal protein, or the sun, if any is a threat to me, I blow it up.

Oh bro, btw they posted a response for what you posted.

http://donmatesz.blogspot.ca/2013/02/harriet-halls-critique-of-gregers.html

viren19890

Basically a critique of the critique for the original critique - one could say Criti-que-ception!

viren19890

VegetaSKJ wrote: »

viren19890 wrote: »

Hello all,

Just came across this research -

http://nutritionfacts.org/video/animal-protein-compared-cigarette-smoking/

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27479196


I know most here talk about animal protein being totally fine for us because all the studies related are "correlation" studies and not actual studies. So wondering what do the educated research based audience thinks about this.

If vegans are anal, I'm wondering -are meat eaters being anal too? about defending their choices above all and letting confirmation bias rule in face of good judgement and studies?

I don't advocate any diet at all because I'm not omniscient yet and I do not recommend anything and I'm just learning and more learning and getting confused more n more I learn.

So I share here and to hear opinions.

Please and thank you

Since you're linking to nutrition facts.org, I figure I should share some research with you:
https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/death-as-a-foodborne-illness-curable-by-veganism/

The extent that animal protein is carcinogenic is low, not at all comparable to cigarettes. If you're going vegan just to avoid cancer, you might as well start living indoors to avoid the sun.
Me, I don't fear plant protein, animal protein, or the sun, if any is a threat to me, I blow it up.

Sorry for re-quoting you but please read the article on critique of the critique. It makes some good points.
Also, please keep in mind this is a discussion/debate not here to prove I'm right or anything just to learn that's it.

Link again

http://donmatesz.blogspot.ca/2013/02/harriet-halls-critique-of-gregers.html

viren19890

This all is making me re-think my LCHF diet again-took me so long to accept that fat is just fat no good or bad like carbs but no! Things keep evolving.

People I feel like there is three sides to all this - one is the side of who consume certain foods vs one who doesn't and then the third which is seeking the truth getting torn apart lol

1454ever

PennWalker wrote: »

viren19890 wrote: »

...The other thing I think about, which is sort of in the spiritual area, is the amount of land and water resources to end up with one pound of beef versus one pound of lentils or other beans. We are suffering droughts in the United States. As the population in the world grows and grows, how sustainable are our traditional farming methods?

I agree and this is why I "gave up the cow" and am nearly completely a plant-based eater. I have a hard time supporting an industry that is so devastating to the EARTH - not just the USA. I like eating plants. I feel good and energetic. My digestion is happy. My doctor tells me I am super healthy and to keep it up. I never got pats on the head like that when I was an omni.

cee134

I've been studying this for awhile. I'm still confused about it. I've read alot of articles that contradict others. From what I've read, the only thing we know is plant and meat protein (by themselves) are both fine sources of protein, as long as you get complete protein.

After that, the questions are:

• how much protein do you need a day?
• should you time your protein intake after/before a workout or does it matter?
• Are plant based proteins healthier because they don't have any saturated fat or cholesterol (or extremely low amounts) or is that not a marker we need to worry about anymore?

lemurcat12

I think the Campbell POV (among others) is that animal-sourced foods have negative effects vs. plant-sourced independent of fat content, or that animal protein is particularly bad. Some of the other WFPB folks are down on protein.

Most mainstream nutrition experts (like those who do the Harvard site) are still down on sat fat and point to a bunch of studies (many correlation). I think dietary cholesterol is generally accepted as not a problem now by the majority.

PennWalker

viren19890 wrote: »

This all is making me re-think my LCHF diet again-took me so long to accept that fat is just fat no good or bad like carbs but no! Things keep evolving.

People I feel like there is three sides to all this - one is the side of who consume certain foods vs one who doesn't and then the third which is seeking the truth getting torn apart lol

I haven't read all the comments, but just want to say we need some fat in our diets. Fat has many purposes. I have high cholesterol and am learning how to reduce it -- I was told that good fats will remove some bad fats from our bodies that contribute to cardiovascular disease. I've added avocado and olive oil to my diet, which both have good fat (I just have to watch the calories, especially in the avocado).

viren19890

PennWalker wrote: »

viren19890 wrote: »

This all is making me re-think my LCHF diet again-took me so long to accept that fat is just fat no good or bad like carbs but no! Things keep evolving.

People I feel like there is three sides to all this - one is the side of who consume certain foods vs one who doesn't and then the third which is seeking the truth getting torn apart lol

I haven't read all the comments, but just want to say we need some fat in our diets. Fat has many purposes. I have high cholesterol and am learning how to reduce it -- I was told that good fats will remove some bad fats from our bodies that contribute to cardiovascular disease. I've added avocado and olive oil to my diet, which both have good fat (I just have to watch the calories, especially in the avocado).

You should join the LCHF group on MFP - it'll help you understand a lot of things. From the intensive learning experience I went through- I've come to understand no such thing as good fat or bad fat lol same as carbs. Also cholesterol isn't good or bad either and apparently fat in foods don't influence that.

I may not be explaining it correctly so forgive me. Body makes majority of the cholesterol on its own so why would it make something that would harm it? So basically it was industry tactic to sell certain drugs related to heart and since the 0 fat craze started -heart related deaths also increased. Ok i'm really going out of depth here and I'll stop.

cee134

Here's a good point I just read:

Some high-protein foods are healthier than others because of what comes along with the protein: healthy fats or harmful ones, beneficial fiber or hidden salt. It’s this protein package that’s likely to make a difference for health.

https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/what-should-you-eat/protein/

So the point I see is meat or plants don't matter as long as they are a healthy source of protein.

For example:

• a 6-ounce broiled porterhouse steak is a great source of protein—about 40 grams worth. But it also delivers about 12 grams of saturated fat. 60% of the recommended daily intake (based on 2000 kcal) for saturated fat.
• 6-ounce ham steak has only about 2.5 grams of saturated fat, but it’s loaded with sodium
• 6-ounces of wild salmon has about 34 grams of protein and is naturally low in sodium, and contains only 1.7 grams of saturated fat. Salmon and other fatty fish are also excellent sources of omega-3 fats, a type of fat that’s especially good for the heart. (however there can be a mercury concern for certain fish.)
• a cup of cooked lentils provides about 18 grams of protein and 15 grams of fiber, and it has virtually no saturated fat or sodium.

cee134

I eat mostly planted based to prevent diabetes and lose weight. It is a diet I can keep for the rest of my life. I do not like Dr. Campbell's or Dr. McDougall's philosophy on protein. I have seen no empirical evidence to back up their statements.

If anything Dr. McDougall's has false information on his website, thus supporting unhealthy veganism, which the support of any unhealthy diet I am against.

The World Health Organization (WHO) recommends men, women, and children get five percent of their calories from protein. The chart below reveals the protein levels of selected plants and as you can see it’s virtually impossible to fail to meet the WHO’s daily requirements.

https://www.drmcdougall.com/health/education/free-mcdougall-program/introduction/plant-foods-provide-nutritional-building-blocks-to-optimum-health/

This statement is a fabrication. The WHO does not say this anywhere on their website. These people are supporting a plant based diet, which I think is healthy, but are giving people the wrong information to be healthy. How many are going to do their research, do you think?

cee134

So when comparing Plant Based vs Meat Based I think it is largely subjective as long as the protein comes from "healthy packages". I think either is acceptable health wise. So then the question comes down to it being moral? There's no way, in my opinion, to answer that question for other people based on individual perception of what is moral.

jillybeansalad

I feel like omnivore and plant-based diets can both be healthy or not healthy. Despite their definitions, they still aren't specific enough to claim either.

I do believe that we are meant to be omnivores (check out our teeth and related species), but I've still chosen to be vegetarian. Being able to make informed decisions makes it possible (and living in a first world country where I have access to almost any food/information).