This is why people gain weight, and why losing it is so hard.
Replies
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The_Enginerd wrote: »
You logged altoids. Now thats dedication. haha
I even log sugarless gum and anything else with any amount of calories. I'm getting 33 calories per day just from vitamins / supplements that I take daily. Everything should be logged.
And 7K calories on a holiday might be enough for some people, but on legit cheat days (I log, but don't restrict), I can easily get 10K and have had a few cheat days with more than 20K calories. Some of us just have an appetite that is apparently difficult for others to understand.1 -
midwesterner85 wrote: »The_Enginerd wrote: »
You logged altoids. Now thats dedication. haha
I even log sugarless gum and anything else with any amount of calories. I'm getting 33 calories per day just from vitamins / supplements that I take daily. Everything should be logged.
And 7K calories on a holiday might be enough for some people, but on legit cheat days (I log, but don't restrict), I can easily get 10K and have had a few cheat days with more than 20K calories. Some of us just have an appetite that is apparently difficult for others to understand.
Holy hell. I've had several days in the 10K+ club, but 20K? Man, I don't know if I could even do that and I eat like a Snorlax.3 -
So before I get into what I'm about to say, I'd like to thank everyone who was constructive towards me while I was having a low moment.
A lot of you gave some great advice, even though I am pretty well versed in weight loss and knew a lot of it already. But here's the thing, I didn't ask for advice. There was no question in my original post. I was just making conversation about how difficult it is going to be to eat a reasonable amount of food once I get to my goal weight. Obviously, I have a problem when it comes to food. For a lot of you its just a thing you do 3ish times a day so you will continue to have energy and live. For me, its almost ceremonious. Eating is not just something I do to survive, its something I thoroughly enjoy. Meal time is something I look forward to for reasons other than hunger. Telling me to just eat healthier/lower calorie/more nutritious/whatever foods is like telling a cocaine addict that he should just smoke pot instead and everything will be alright. It's not a matter of knowing what to do, because God knows I know exactly what to do, its a matter of being able to do it. I'm only on day 12 and I've been doing well so far. There is no reason for me to believe I cant continue what I'm doing for many months. It's after that that concerns me, and once again, its not that I can't, its that I'm having to chose between something I enjoy, and something I need to be healthy. There's no answer, no way to fix it. I didn't ask anyone to help me solve the problem. I was just making conversation about how it sucks.
Also, to the guy who couldn't figure out how I ate 4500 (a rounded number) calories in a day, book this out:
Breakfast - A.M. Sausage Crunchwrap from Taco Bell
Lunch - 5 Krystals and a Chili Chese Fry from Krystal
Afternoon Snack - King Size Kit-Kat and 16oz Red Bull
Dinner - Cajun Chicken Pasta from Chili's
Throughout the day (including at meals)- About 80oz of Coke
If you are thinking about saying "well surely you don't eat the same thing ever day", no, but similar. And I did drink about the same amount of coke every day and eat a candy bar (sometimes a Mounds or a Twix) and a Red Bull every day.
Again, I'm not asking you for help, I'm just making conversation about how much it F#*$&%@ sucks.
So this thread was a gigantic waste of everyones time then.
What a shame.
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bethannien wrote: »I would like to see a listing of the food you ate that tallied 4500 calories.
I just cannot fathom that many calories in a day.
Easy peasy. A fat Belgian waffle, slathered in a couple tablespoons of butter for breakfast and at LEAST 1/2 cup of maple syrup. Can't eat that without a couple slices of bacon and a fried egg or two (cooked in the bacon grease of course). 800 calories for the waffle, butter and syrup. Another 100 or so for the bacon and conservatively another 150 for the eggs. Pushing 1000 just on breakfast.
Lunch, I'd eat a Big Mac meal (with a Diet Coke at least) which tops out at around 900 calories. Sometimes I'd get a dipped ice cream cone for another 150 (1050).
A snack before dinner of a snickers bar (280 cals if I'm not mistaken) and maybe a couple ounces of cheese for 220 cals or so (500).
Dinner, if I cooked at home, would be some form of creamy pasta with meat. I would easily eat two servings, if not more but let's say I just ate two. I guarantee just the entree would be 1000 calories, plus one or two slices of garlic bread, 400 calories for 2 slices. (1400).
I nearly always ate something before bed too. Maybe it was leftovers in the fridge (anywhere from 500-750 calories would be my guess). Maybe it was swinging through a drive thru and eating egg rolls dipped in ranch (3 at 150 cals each plus 200 or so calories worth of ranch-650). Sometimes it would be a whole pint of Ben and Jerry's (1200 give or take 200 calories).
Conservatively, that's about 4400 calories but it could get as bad as 6000 calories. And that was a pretty regular Saturday for me.
But that's my point, it is attainable when eating utter crap food. When trying to lose weight, in my opinion, there is no way you should be even coming close to that.
Well if that's what you meant, that's what you should have said. And, for the record, I can at least come close even while trying to make good choices.
A few weeks ago, I was out of town for a wedding. We went out for breakfast. I chose an omelet loaded with spinach, mushrooms, broccoli and avocado. There was cream cheese instead of regular cheese. Once I logged all the components, it ended up being 800 calories. And that was forgetting to take into account whatever oil/butter they may have cooked it in. I even skipped the home fries that came with it. I did eat a piece of sourdough toast but forgot to ask for it unbuttered so, that healthy breakfast came in at probably about 1000-1100 calories. Just like my waffle and eggs breakfast.
Start my day off like that and then maybe don't weigh my nut butter, add a little too much cream to my coffee, drizzle a little too much olive oil on my Brussel sprouts, too much dressing tossed with my broccoli and kale salad, give myself too generous a serving of pizza made with whole wheat crust, fresh mozzarella cheese and squash, and we're looking at similar numbers.
It literally does not matter how healthy or unhealthy the individual food choices you make are. If you're not weighing and measuring and taking reasonable portion sizes, it's easy to eat 4000 plus calories.
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bethannien wrote: »bethannien wrote: »I would like to see a listing of the food you ate that tallied 4500 calories.
I just cannot fathom that many calories in a day.
Easy peasy. A fat Belgian waffle, slathered in a couple tablespoons of butter for breakfast and at LEAST 1/2 cup of maple syrup. Can't eat that without a couple slices of bacon and a fried egg or two (cooked in the bacon grease of course). 800 calories for the waffle, butter and syrup. Another 100 or so for the bacon and conservatively another 150 for the eggs. Pushing 1000 just on breakfast.
Lunch, I'd eat a Big Mac meal (with a Diet Coke at least) which tops out at around 900 calories. Sometimes I'd get a dipped ice cream cone for another 150 (1050).
A snack before dinner of a snickers bar (280 cals if I'm not mistaken) and maybe a couple ounces of cheese for 220 cals or so (500).
Dinner, if I cooked at home, would be some form of creamy pasta with meat. I would easily eat two servings, if not more but let's say I just ate two. I guarantee just the entree would be 1000 calories, plus one or two slices of garlic bread, 400 calories for 2 slices. (1400).
I nearly always ate something before bed too. Maybe it was leftovers in the fridge (anywhere from 500-750 calories would be my guess). Maybe it was swinging through a drive thru and eating egg rolls dipped in ranch (3 at 150 cals each plus 200 or so calories worth of ranch-650). Sometimes it would be a whole pint of Ben and Jerry's (1200 give or take 200 calories).
Conservatively, that's about 4400 calories but it could get as bad as 6000 calories. And that was a pretty regular Saturday for me.
But that's my point, it is attainable when eating utter crap food. When trying to lose weight, in my opinion, there is no way you should be even coming close to that.
Well if that's what you meant, that's what you should have said. And, for the record, I can at least come close even while trying to make good choices.
A few weeks ago, I was out of town for a wedding. We went out for breakfast. I chose an omelet loaded with spinach, mushrooms, broccoli and avocado. There was cream cheese instead of regular cheese. Once I logged all the components, it ended up being 800 calories. And that was forgetting to take into account whatever oil/butter they may have cooked it in. I even skipped the home fries that came with it. I did eat a piece of sourdough toast but forgot to ask for it unbuttered so, that healthy breakfast came in at probably about 1000-1100 calories. Just like my waffle and eggs breakfast.
Start my day off like that and then maybe don't weigh my nut butter, add a little too much cream to my coffee, drizzle a little too much olive oil on my Brussel sprouts, too much dressing tossed with my broccoli and kale salad, give myself too generous a serving of pizza made with whole wheat crust, fresh mozzarella cheese and squash, and we're looking at similar numbers.
It literally does not matter how healthy or unhealthy the individual food choices you make are. If you're not weighing and measuring and taking reasonable portion sizes, it's easy to eat 4000 plus calories.
Yep, I recently visited a raw food place while on vacation and had an almond butter smoothie and a kale salad. My guess is that I had about 1,200 calories in that meal. Everything was raw, fresh, and made right there. It's irrelevant when it comes to calories. It would be easy to have a 4,000 calorie day eating stuff like that.6 -
I have always counted calories daily, but I've read that some people say weekly is the way to go. Do any of you guys kinda not really worry about daily and concentrate on weekly? Eating heavy one day and light on another day to make up for it?
This is exactly what I do. I will probably eat 3500 calories today but balance it out over the week. And I'm in a deficit.1 -
LiminalAscendance wrote: »Again, I'm not asking you for help, I'm just making conversation about how much it F#*$&%@ sucks.
Yeah, quite often the responses here are meant to illuminate the hordes that are scrambling aimlessly in ignorance, and aren't really attempting to address the OP.
Don't take it personally.
God forbid we try to help when the post is made in the forum "general weight loss help". It's not like this is the motivation section...
This. If it was posted in the Motivation/Support thread maybe you would have gotten the responses you wanted. The Help thread is usually for people looking for help. And is often frequented by lurkers who are not the OP and also looking for help.
FYI, OP I enjoy my food too. I don't just eat because I'm hungry - food is one of the great joys of life. But I have taken the last couple of years and learned how to structure my diet so that I don't have to think too much, I don't have to spend too much, I definitely LOVE what I eat, and I'm at the correct calorie level too. With all due respect, if all you're eating is a lot of fast food, candy, and soda, experimenting a little with food will get you to a diet that is WAY more yummy and with WAY less calories. You aren't prioritizing delicious food, you're prioritizing convenience.
Sorry I couldn't commiserate, but best of luck.
I wasn't going to respond to this when I read the first paragraph, but since the second one was so ridiculous I'll go ahead and hit both.
I understand there are lurkers, and I understand that the people who were trying to help maybe weren't talking to me but just everyone in general, and I respect that. I even appreciate it, because we can all always stand to learn something new. It's the people who were being pricks that I'd like to give a big "F#&$ YOU!" to.
Now about this deal of prioritizing convenience over delicious food, you couldn't possibly be more wrong. You don't get to decide what is delicious to me, or anyone else, in the same way I don't get to decide on that for you. I eat a lot of different kinds of food, from cheap fast food, to standard sit-down style restaurants, to homecooked meals, to 5 star cuisine, and I'll tell you right now, I'll take a greasy plate of french fries smothered in cheese and chili and bacon and ranch dressing over a pretty piece of steak or chicken or fish and greens any day of the week, and twice on Sunday. I don't care about convenience. I enjoy cooking, which is another thing that everyone in this topic seems to think just doesn't happen when people eat a bunch of bad food. I can make a 2000 calorie dish as well or better than any restaurant can.
Based on the sample you posted on an example 4000 cal day, you don't mind eating fast food, chain restaurant, or standard candy.
So, since you like to cook, part of success can be figuring out how to remake that 2000 calorie restaurant dish and have it satisfy you just as much for fewer calories. Nearly all of those dishes have extras (like 2-3 more tablespoons of canola oil greasing the pan than needed) that don't contribute to flavor and can be taken out. Consider it a challenge.
Of course learning to be satisfied with smaller portions will have to be a part of it, too - no one who needs to lose weight particularly likes the prospect of eating less. And it would be daunting looking at such a large change as you are, which is why that's counterproductive. If you can stop thinking about it as one giant step, and look at it as a series of smaller ones, it won't seem quite as ridiculous. Better yet, forget about the endpoint for now and just concentrate on what you are ready to do.
You think you can get to 3000 cals per day and not be unhappy about it. OK, you're on your way to doing that (maybe have already done it). You can stay there until eating 3000 feels as normal as eating 4000 does now. At that point, it's likely that you'll be able to conceive of cutting another, say, 500 cals off of 3000 and still be pretty OK with it. You may be able to proceed entirely that way. Or by also bringing your activity up.8 -
stevencloser wrote: »SusanMFindlay wrote: »I was convinced I was an outlier due to my frame when I was fat .. My goal was to get close to 25 ...cos I bought into the whole population measure,not for individuals, I'm large framed / big boned (I am by wrist and forearm dimensions) .turns out I sit nicely around a BMI of 24 (and I have decent muscles
As I mentioned, height is a big issue with BMI. My husband is 6'1, used to throw javelin, shot put, discus, etc. and has the build you'd expect from that. BMI says he'd have to be below 190 to be "healthy" which is total BS. I've seen photos of him as a teenager weighing that much and he was skinny as a rail. You shouldn't be skinny as a rail at the top of your "healthy" BMI range. But he is the exception not the rule (and it is largely because he is tall in addition to being broad shouldered and broad chested).
Similarly, for some very very short women (substantially sub-five-feet), the bottom end of the healthy range doesn't go low enough.
Checking for FFMI and assuming he's in the land between very fit and still humanly possible, he could be between 10 and 15% bodyfat at below 190 with plenty of musculature because high FFMI. Hardly thin as a rail.
1. I know the man. I've seen the pictures. You don't and haven't. "Skinny as a rail" is accurate for him personally at that weight.
2. You're ignoring the impact of bone structure. Even if he lost all non-essential bodyfat, he'd still be wearing extra large shirts to fit his shoulder bones.
3. My basic point was *not* that BMI sucks for everyone. It was that it "breaks" for the tallest and shortest because of mathematical shortcomings in the formula. He happens to be a good example of this.
4. You're defending BMI based on a claim that someone could have 10% bodyfat at the very top of their "healthy" BMI range. Which is in the "lean" category (i.e. below "ideal" but still fine) for someone his age. So still suggests that BMI is not a very useful tool for the tall (and short).1 -
So before I get into what I'm about to say, I'd like to thank everyone who was constructive towards me while I was having a low moment.
A lot of you gave some great advice, even though I am pretty well versed in weight loss and knew a lot of it already. But here's the thing, I didn't ask for advice. There was no question in my original post. I was just making conversation about how difficult it is going to be to eat a reasonable amount of food once I get to my goal weight. Obviously, I have a problem when it comes to food. For a lot of you its just a thing you do 3ish times a day so you will continue to have energy and live. For me, its almost ceremonious. Eating is not just something I do to survive, its something I thoroughly enjoy. Meal time is something I look forward to for reasons other than hunger. Telling me to just eat healthier/lower calorie/more nutritious/whatever foods is like telling a cocaine addict that he should just smoke pot instead and everything will be alright. It's not a matter of knowing what to do, because God knows I know exactly what to do, its a matter of being able to do it. I'm only on day 12 and I've been doing well so far. There is no reason for me to believe I cant continue what I'm doing for many months. It's after that that concerns me, and once again, its not that I can't, its that I'm having to chose between something I enjoy, and something I need to be healthy. There's no answer, no way to fix it. I didn't ask anyone to help me solve the problem. I was just making conversation about how it sucks.
Also, to the guy who couldn't figure out how I ate 4500 (a rounded number) calories in a day, book this out:
Breakfast - A.M. Sausage Crunchwrap from Taco Bell
Lunch - 5 Krystals and a Chili Chese Fry from Krystal
Afternoon Snack - King Size Kit-Kat and 16oz Red Bull
Dinner - Cajun Chicken Pasta from Chili's
Throughout the day (including at meals)- About 80oz of Coke
If you are thinking about saying "well surely you don't eat the same thing ever day", no, but similar. And I did drink about the same amount of coke every day and eat a candy bar (sometimes a Mounds or a Twix) and a Red Bull every day.
Again, I'm not asking you for help, I'm just making conversation about how much it F#*$&%@ sucks.
The conversation I have with myself almost daily: "Does this suck worse than being treated like crap and feeling like crap all the time simply for being fat?" "no?" "then embrace it."5 -
So before I get into what I'm about to say, I'd like to thank everyone who was constructive towards me while I was having a low moment.
A lot of you gave some great advice, even though I am pretty well versed in weight loss and knew a lot of it already. But here's the thing, I didn't ask for advice. There was no question in my original post. I was just making conversation about how difficult it is going to be to eat a reasonable amount of food once I get to my goal weight. Obviously, I have a problem when it comes to food. For a lot of you its just a thing you do 3ish times a day so you will continue to have energy and live. For me, its almost ceremonious. Eating is not just something I do to survive, its something I thoroughly enjoy. Meal time is something I look forward to for reasons other than hunger. Telling me to just eat healthier/lower calorie/more nutritious/whatever foods is like telling a cocaine addict that he should just smoke pot instead and everything will be alright. It's not a matter of knowing what to do, because God knows I know exactly what to do, its a matter of being able to do it. I'm only on day 12 and I've been doing well so far. There is no reason for me to believe I cant continue what I'm doing for many months. It's after that that concerns me, and once again, its not that I can't, its that I'm having to chose between something I enjoy, and something I need to be healthy. There's no answer, no way to fix it. I didn't ask anyone to help me solve the problem. I was just making conversation about how it sucks...
I'm reminded of when I abused alcohol and heard that some problem drinkers can eventually drink moderately. I thought this was crazy, stupid and pointless. I thought I would never want to have a glass or two of wine and stop - what would be the point in starting if I couldn't get drunk?!?
However, I quit drinking for a few years and can now indeed stop at a glass or two of wine, and limit this to once a month or less.
What changed is that I no longer self-medicate with alcohol. Or food. Now, I manage stress via exercise.
ps - I love food too.15 -
LiminalAscendance wrote: »Again, I'm not asking you for help, I'm just making conversation about how much it F#*$&%@ sucks.
Yeah, quite often the responses here are meant to illuminate the hordes that are scrambling aimlessly in ignorance, and aren't really attempting to address the OP.
Don't take it personally.
God forbid we try to help when the post is made in the forum "general weight loss help". It's not like this is the motivation section...
This. If it was posted in the Motivation/Support thread maybe you would have gotten the responses you wanted. The Help thread is usually for people looking for help. And is often frequented by lurkers who are not the OP and also looking for help.
FYI, OP I enjoy my food too. I don't just eat because I'm hungry - food is one of the great joys of life. But I have taken the last couple of years and learned how to structure my diet so that I don't have to think too much, I don't have to spend too much, I definitely LOVE what I eat, and I'm at the correct calorie level too. With all due respect, if all you're eating is a lot of fast food, candy, and soda, experimenting a little with food will get you to a diet that is WAY more yummy and with WAY less calories. You aren't prioritizing delicious food, you're prioritizing convenience.
Sorry I couldn't commiserate, but best of luck.
I wasn't going to respond to this when I read the first paragraph, but since the second one was so ridiculous I'll go ahead and hit both.
I understand there are lurkers, and I understand that the people who were trying to help maybe weren't talking to me but just everyone in general, and I respect that. I even appreciate it, because we can all always stand to learn something new. It's the people who were being pricks that I'd like to give a big "F#&$ YOU!" to.
Now about this deal of prioritizing convenience over delicious food, you couldn't possibly be more wrong. You don't get to decide what is delicious to me, or anyone else, in the same way I don't get to decide on that for you. I eat a lot of different kinds of food, from cheap fast food, to standard sit-down style restaurants, to homecooked meals, to 5 star cuisine, and I'll tell you right now, I'll take a greasy plate of french fries smothered in cheese and chili and bacon and ranch dressing over a pretty piece of steak or chicken or fish and greens any day of the week, and twice on Sunday. I don't care about convenience. I enjoy cooking, which is another thing that everyone in this topic seems to think just doesn't happen when people eat a bunch of bad food. I can make a 2000 calorie dish as well or better than any restaurant can.
I was responding to this, I'm quoting you here:
"Also, to the guy who couldn't figure out how I ate 4500 (a rounded number) calories in a day, book this out:
Breakfast - A.M. Sausage Crunchwrap from Taco Bell
Lunch - 5 Krystals and a Chili Chese Fry from Krystal
Afternoon Snack - King Size Kit-Kat and 16oz Red Bull
Dinner - Cajun Chicken Pasta from Chili's
Throughout the day (including at meals)- About 80oz of Coke
If you are thinking about saying "well surely you don't eat the same thing ever day", no, but similar. And I did drink about the same amount of coke every day and eat a candy bar (sometimes a Mounds or a Twix) and a Red Bull every day."
You posted a day where you ate Taco Bell for breakfast, Krystal's burgers and fries for lunch, and Chili's pasta for dinner, and said you ate similarly every day. My apologies if I misunderstood that. I'm not sure how I could have known you "love to cook" based on this, but i'm glad you do. Again, best of luck.6 -
LiminalAscendance wrote: »Again, I'm not asking you for help, I'm just making conversation about how much it F#*$&%@ sucks.
Yeah, quite often the responses here are meant to illuminate the hordes that are scrambling aimlessly in ignorance, and aren't really attempting to address the OP.
Don't take it personally.
God forbid we try to help when the post is made in the forum "general weight loss help". It's not like this is the motivation section...
This. If it was posted in the Motivation/Support thread maybe you would have gotten the responses you wanted. The Help thread is usually for people looking for help. And is often frequented by lurkers who are not the OP and also looking for help.
FYI, OP I enjoy my food too. I don't just eat because I'm hungry - food is one of the great joys of life. But I have taken the last couple of years and learned how to structure my diet so that I don't have to think too much, I don't have to spend too much, I definitely LOVE what I eat, and I'm at the correct calorie level too. With all due respect, if all you're eating is a lot of fast food, candy, and soda, experimenting a little with food will get you to a diet that is WAY more yummy and with WAY less calories. You aren't prioritizing delicious food, you're prioritizing convenience.
Sorry I couldn't commiserate, but best of luck.
I wasn't going to respond to this when I read the first paragraph, but since the second one was so ridiculous I'll go ahead and hit both.
I understand there are lurkers, and I understand that the people who were trying to help maybe weren't talking to me but just everyone in general, and I respect that. I even appreciate it, because we can all always stand to learn something new. It's the people who were being pricks that I'd like to give a big "F#&$ YOU!" to.
Now about this deal of prioritizing convenience over delicious food, you couldn't possibly be more wrong. You don't get to decide what is delicious to me, or anyone else, in the same way I don't get to decide on that for you. I eat a lot of different kinds of food, from cheap fast food, to standard sit-down style restaurants, to homecooked meals, to 5 star cuisine, and I'll tell you right now, I'll take a greasy plate of french fries smothered in cheese and chili and bacon and ranch dressing over a pretty piece of steak or chicken or fish and greens any day of the week, and twice on Sunday. I don't care about convenience. I enjoy cooking, which is another thing that everyone in this topic seems to think just doesn't happen when people eat a bunch of bad food. I can make a 2000 calorie dish as well or better than any restaurant can.
Based on the sample you posted on an example 4000 cal day, you don't mind eating fast food, chain restaurant, or standard candy.
So, since you like to cook, part of success can be figuring out how to remake that 2000 calorie restaurant dish and have it satisfy you just as much for fewer calories. Nearly all of those dishes have extras (like 2-3 more tablespoons of canola oil greasing the pan than needed) that don't contribute to flavor and can be taken out. Consider it a challenge.
Of course learning to be satisfied with smaller portions will have to be a part of it, too - no one who needs to lose weight particularly likes the prospect of eating less. And it would be daunting looking at such a large change as you are, which is why that's counterproductive. If you can stop thinking about it as one giant step, and look at it as a series of smaller ones, it won't seem quite as ridiculous. Better yet, forget about the endpoint for now and just concentrate on what you are ready to do.
You think you can get to 3000 cals per day and not be unhappy about it. OK, you're on your way to doing that (maybe have already done it). You can stay there until eating 3000 feels as normal as eating 4000 does now. At that point, it's likely that you'll be able to conceive of cutting another, say, 500 cals off of 3000 and still be pretty OK with it. You may be able to proceed entirely that way. Or by also bringing your activity up.
This is what I do and it's so fun and satisfying mentally! To know that you made something just as good as the "full-flavor" version, while switching some ingredients for low-fat, reducing or removing unimportant ingredients that don't meaningfully contribute to flavor, making new combinations that satisfy the craving with new and exciting flavors....3 -
LiminalAscendance wrote: »Again, I'm not asking you for help, I'm just making conversation about how much it F#*$&%@ sucks.
Yeah, quite often the responses here are meant to illuminate the hordes that are scrambling aimlessly in ignorance, and aren't really attempting to address the OP.
Don't take it personally.
God forbid we try to help when the post is made in the forum "general weight loss help". It's not like this is the motivation section...
This. If it was posted in the Motivation/Support thread maybe you would have gotten the responses you wanted. The Help thread is usually for people looking for help. And is often frequented by lurkers who are not the OP and also looking for help.
FYI, OP I enjoy my food too. I don't just eat because I'm hungry - food is one of the great joys of life. But I have taken the last couple of years and learned how to structure my diet so that I don't have to think too much, I don't have to spend too much, I definitely LOVE what I eat, and I'm at the correct calorie level too. With all due respect, if all you're eating is a lot of fast food, candy, and soda, experimenting a little with food will get you to a diet that is WAY more yummy and with WAY less calories. You aren't prioritizing delicious food, you're prioritizing convenience.
Sorry I couldn't commiserate, but best of luck.
I wasn't going to respond to this when I read the first paragraph, but since the second one was so ridiculous I'll go ahead and hit both.
I understand there are lurkers, and I understand that the people who were trying to help maybe weren't talking to me but just everyone in general, and I respect that. I even appreciate it, because we can all always stand to learn something new. It's the people who were being pricks that I'd like to give a big "F#&$ YOU!" to.
Now about this deal of prioritizing convenience over delicious food, you couldn't possibly be more wrong. You don't get to decide what is delicious to me, or anyone else, in the same way I don't get to decide on that for you. I eat a lot of different kinds of food, from cheap fast food, to standard sit-down style restaurants, to homecooked meals, to 5 star cuisine, and I'll tell you right now, I'll take a greasy plate of french fries smothered in cheese and chili and bacon and ranch dressing over a pretty piece of steak or chicken or fish and greens any day of the week, and twice on Sunday. I don't care about convenience. I enjoy cooking, which is another thing that everyone in this topic seems to think just doesn't happen when people eat a bunch of bad food. I can make a 2000 calorie dish as well or better than any restaurant can.
Based on the sample you posted on an example 4000 cal day, you don't mind eating fast food, chain restaurant, or standard candy.
So, since you like to cook, part of success can be figuring out how to remake that 2000 calorie restaurant dish and have it satisfy you just as much for fewer calories. Nearly all of those dishes have extras (like 2-3 more tablespoons of canola oil greasing the pan than needed) that don't contribute to flavor and can be taken out. Consider it a challenge.
Of course learning to be satisfied with smaller portions will have to be a part of it, too - no one who needs to lose weight particularly likes the prospect of eating less. And it would be daunting looking at such a large change as you are, which is why that's counterproductive. If you can stop thinking about it as one giant step, and look at it as a series of smaller ones, it won't seem quite as ridiculous. Better yet, forget about the endpoint for now and just concentrate on what you are ready to do.
You think you can get to 3000 cals per day and not be unhappy about it. OK, you're on your way to doing that (maybe have already done it). You can stay there until eating 3000 feels as normal as eating 4000 does now. At that point, it's likely that you'll be able to conceive of cutting another, say, 500 cals off of 3000 and still be pretty OK with it. You may be able to proceed entirely that way. Or by also bringing your activity up.
This is what I do and it's so fun and satisfying mentally! To know that you made something just as good as the "full-flavor" version, while switching some ingredients for low-fat, reducing or removing unimportant ingredients that don't meaningfully contribute to flavor, making new combinations that satisfy the craving with new and exciting flavors....
I do this too. I love chicken nuggets/tenders and sweet potato fries. Like LOVE them. So instead of going to Wendy's or Arby's I started making my own. I can control the amount of oil used, I can season it the way that I want, I can weigh out the exact portion that I need, and it taste way better than any restaurant and it has way less calories b/c I didn't double or triple batter it, I didn't use 5x the amount of oil needed, and the chicken is fresher. I will cheat sometimes and use the Alexis brand sweet potatoes if I'm feeling lazy, but other than that it's a home cooked meal that mimics two of my favorite things.5 -
SusanMFindlay wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »SusanMFindlay wrote: »I was convinced I was an outlier due to my frame when I was fat .. My goal was to get close to 25 ...cos I bought into the whole population measure,not for individuals, I'm large framed / big boned (I am by wrist and forearm dimensions) .turns out I sit nicely around a BMI of 24 (and I have decent muscles
As I mentioned, height is a big issue with BMI. My husband is 6'1, used to throw javelin, shot put, discus, etc. and has the build you'd expect from that. BMI says he'd have to be below 190 to be "healthy" which is total BS. I've seen photos of him as a teenager weighing that much and he was skinny as a rail. You shouldn't be skinny as a rail at the top of your "healthy" BMI range. But he is the exception not the rule (and it is largely because he is tall in addition to being broad shouldered and broad chested).
Similarly, for some very very short women (substantially sub-five-feet), the bottom end of the healthy range doesn't go low enough.
Checking for FFMI and assuming he's in the land between very fit and still humanly possible, he could be between 10 and 15% bodyfat at below 190 with plenty of musculature because high FFMI. Hardly thin as a rail.
1. I know the man. I've seen the pictures. You don't and haven't. "Skinny as a rail" is accurate for him personally at that weight.
2. You're ignoring the impact of bone structure. Even if he lost all non-essential bodyfat, he'd still be wearing extra large shirts to fit his shoulder bones.
3. My basic point was *not* that BMI sucks for everyone. It was that it "breaks" for the tallest and shortest because of mathematical shortcomings in the formula. He happens to be a good example of this.
4. You're defending BMI based on a claim that someone could have 10% bodyfat at the very top of their "healthy" BMI range. Which is in the "lean" category (i.e. below "ideal" but still fine) for someone his age. So still suggests that BMI is not a very useful tool for the tall (and short).
1.) I haven't but the numbers are still there. You could have exceptionally athletic amounts of muscle and be low to normal bodyfat and it would show 10 out of 10 times at those amounts. Looking skinny as a rail is either just your perception, he was a different weight, or had far less muscle mass and conversely more fat on him than you're letting on.
2 and 3) Healthy BMI is a range for a reason. A really broad range. 30 to 55 pounds wide from short to tall people. You think he actually looks skinny as hell 45 pounds before someone who is exactly the same height as him would be considererd too skinny by BMI?
4) You're ignoring that even at 15% bodyfat he could still be above 21 FFMI which is defined as very athletic (25 being the upper limit for what is considered doable without PEDs). Over 21 FFMI you don't look skinny as a rail. I know a 6'3'' guy who weighs 150 pounds, THAT is skinny as a rail.1 -
I would like to see a listing of the food you ate that tallied 4500 calories.
I just cannot fathom that many calories in a day.
@Resistive Off topic but, if you ask, you get. I'm a 5'5" woman, this was a deliberate day off from my food plan (but not logging) so if you ignore my fitbit adjustment that's all food I scarfed, and I skipped lunch
The_Enginerd wrote: »
Inb4 guy says this doesn't count because of "crap" food.2 -
I have always counted calories daily, but I've read that some people say weekly is the way to go. Do any of you guys kinda not really worry about daily and concentrate on weekly? Eating heavy one day and light on another day to make up for it?
This is exactly what I do. I will probably eat 3500 calories today but balance it out over the week. And I'm in a deficit.
I tried something very similar to that once, but it didn't work out because I was still in a deficit. There were days where I would eat less than 500 calories some days in order to eat what I wanted other days. It came out to about 7K surplus for the week overall. So it is worth repeating this point: something that works for you might not work for those of us who have bigger appetites. For some of us, this plan doesn't help eliminate both hunger and weight, which is really the problem OP expects to encounter (and a problem I'm already encountering as I get closer and closer to goal).
Here is how that works for someone like me: I'm hungry all the time anyway, whether eating 500 or 1,500 or 2,500 calories... so no difference on most days. On some days, though, I can eat as much as I want and am not hungry. So then it is a matter of figuring out how often to have a day where I can eat as much as I want and still lose weight, and how much I can eat on other days. So figure 10K calories is what it takes to satisfy me in a day. If I do that once every 10 days, I can still keep an average deficit of 250 calories per day (1/2 lb. per week loss on average) as long as I eat 500 calories the other 9 days. For 9 days, I'm hungry no matter what, but at least once every 10 days, I am not hungry because I can finally eat. Of course this is a terrible idea and I'm not suggesting it. I just want to illustrate why those last few lbs. are so hard to lose for those of us with big appetites and a decreased RMR. Your weekly average idea is a daunting suggestion that is probably great for those with mediocre appetites, but not so great for others.0 -
midwesterner85 wrote: »I have always counted calories daily, but I've read that some people say weekly is the way to go. Do any of you guys kinda not really worry about daily and concentrate on weekly? Eating heavy one day and light on another day to make up for it?
This is exactly what I do. I will probably eat 3500 calories today but balance it out over the week. And I'm in a deficit.
I tried something very similar to that once, but it didn't work out because I was still in a deficit. There were days where I would eat less than 500 calories some days in order to eat what I wanted other days. It came out to about 7K surplus for the week overall. So it is worth repeating this point: something that works for you might not work for those of us who have bigger appetites. For some of us, this plan doesn't help eliminate both hunger and weight, which is really the problem OP expects to encounter (and a problem I'm already encountering as I get closer and closer to goal).
Here is how that works for someone like me: I'm hungry all the time anyway, whether eating 500 or 1,500 or 2,500 calories... so no difference on most days. On some days, though, I can eat as much as I want and am not hungry. So then it is a matter of figuring out how often to have a day where I can eat as much as I want and still lose weight, and how much I can eat on other days. So figure 10K calories is what it takes to satisfy me in a day. If I do that once every 10 days, I can still keep an average deficit of 250 calories per day (1/2 lb. per week loss on average) as long as I eat 500 calories the other 9 days. For 9 days, I'm hungry no matter what, but at least once every 10 days, I am not hungry because I can finally eat. Of course this is a terrible idea and I'm not suggesting it. I just want to illustrate why those last few lbs. are so hard to lose for those of us with big appetites and a decreased RMR. Your weekly average idea is a daunting suggestion that is probably great for those with mediocre appetites, but not so great for others.
as a type 1 diabetic you are killing yourself...you will have issues with your limbs, kidneys and eyesight if you don't get control of yourself...I know as I have a brother who has been a diabetic since he was six.
You remind of the other diabetic I knew who didn't want to exercise but the food they needed to keep healthy was a lot...and they got chubby so they stopped eating most of it...they nearly killed themselves and have lost limbs...and partially blind now...
smh...you know you have a condition and don't do what you need to do to stay healthy...wow just wow.5 -
So before I get into what I'm about to say, I'd like to thank everyone who was constructive towards me while I was having a low moment.
A lot of you gave some great advice, even though I am pretty well versed in weight loss and knew a lot of it already. But here's the thing, I didn't ask for advice. There was no question in my original post. I was just making conversation about how difficult it is going to be to eat a reasonable amount of food once I get to my goal weight. Obviously, I have a problem when it comes to food. For a lot of you its just a thing you do 3ish times a day so you will continue to have energy and live. For me, its almost ceremonious. Eating is not just something I do to survive, its something I thoroughly enjoy. Meal time is something I look forward to for reasons other than hunger. Telling me to just eat healthier/lower calorie/more nutritious/whatever foods is like telling a cocaine addict that he should just smoke pot instead and everything will be alright. It's not a matter of knowing what to do, because God knows I know exactly what to do, its a matter of being able to do it. I'm only on day 12 and I've been doing well so far. There is no reason for me to believe I cant continue what I'm doing for many months. It's after that that concerns me, and once again, its not that I can't, its that I'm having to chose between something I enjoy, and something I need to be healthy. There's no answer, no way to fix it. I didn't ask anyone to help me solve the problem. I was just making conversation about how it sucks.
Also, to the guy who couldn't figure out how I ate 4500 (a rounded number) calories in a day, book this out:
Breakfast - A.M. Sausage Crunchwrap from Taco Bell
Lunch - 5 Krystals and a Chili Chese Fry from Krystal
Afternoon Snack - King Size Kit-Kat and 16oz Red Bull
Dinner - Cajun Chicken Pasta from Chili's
Throughout the day (including at meals)- About 80oz of Coke
If you are thinking about saying "well surely you don't eat the same thing ever day", no, but similar. And I did drink about the same amount of coke every day and eat a candy bar (sometimes a Mounds or a Twix) and a Red Bull every day.
Again, I'm not asking you for help, I'm just making conversation about how much it F#*$&%@ sucks.
Okay. So being very cautious here as you didn't really want "advice" responses:
1) After you eat differently for a long time to achieve weight loss, it would've become a lifestyle change, and you wouldn't necessarily want or need to go back to the old ways.
2) I notice your listed 4500 calorie example day consisted of meals "from" various places. In my 4 months on here I've gradually begun to realize that I can't relate to some people's food diaries, because my meals are generally prepared and consumed at home.
And yes I saw in your follow-up post that you actually cook some meals at home, but I'm trying to keep this response as brief as possible.1 -
SusanMFindlay wrote: »I was convinced I was an outlier due to my frame when I was fat .. My goal was to get close to 25 ...cos I bought into the whole population measure,not for individuals, I'm large framed / big boned (I am by wrist and forearm dimensions) .turns out I sit nicely around a BMI of 24 (and I have decent muscles
As I mentioned, height is a big issue with BMI. My husband is 6'1, used to throw javelin, shot put, discus, etc. and has the build you'd expect from that. BMI says he'd have to be below 190 to be "healthy" which is total BS. I've seen photos of him as a teenager weighing that much and he was skinny as a rail. You shouldn't be skinny as a rail at the top of your "healthy" BMI range. But he is the exception not the rule (and it is largely because he is tall in addition to being broad shouldered and broad chested).
Similarly, for some very very short women (substantially sub-five-feet), the bottom end of the healthy range doesn't go low enough.
Actually I'd argue far more about health risks below the bottom end of BMI charts ..because the healthy range is 20-25 (not the Asian chart which is to 23) and the 18.5-20 is for the bottom end and there are far more serious health risks to striving for "underweight" and extremely low BF than being slightly over the top end
Also I acknowledged above the upper end hereIn general only committed bodybuilders / pro athletes have the musculature that takes them outside those boundaries at a healthy weight
I'm not saying that a population measure formula created by a 19th century mathematician is diagnostic or relevant on an individual basis
But it is statistically relevant on health risks and it is a good goal for the overweight who can reconsider as they get closer ...believe me, I used to believe it was wrong for me too...my goal was 25 and even then I thought if I hit 26-27 I'll be good cos big bones :bigsmile:
I'm saying far more overweight people believe they are outliers than actually are ..and it's only with success and long term adherence that we may realise how skewed our thoughts are by how we have been brought to view normal weights in our societies, by the nature of how many people are overweight
Yes when I started I thought I'd aim for a BMI of 27, as I do have wide hips (and have never been normal) But then saw some photos of (now obese) relatives who were in a normal BMI range and have the hips. So I thought I'd aim for 24.9 then reassess. Lurking in the forums helped. I still have MFP set to 1lb a week because when I saw the low number of calories it scared me. Even though I'm still losing faster knowing I have a higher number buffer helps. Yes one day I will cut further. But not yet.
Lots of people on this thread have said really helpful things. And it was advice like this I took in, measure for woo and sustainability, and created a WOE that works for me. It was advice like this that kept me going when I stalled for a couple of weeks. Preventing me going on 4K binges and just telling me the scale would catch up.
4 -
midwesterner85 wrote: »I have always counted calories daily, but I've read that some people say weekly is the way to go. Do any of you guys kinda not really worry about daily and concentrate on weekly? Eating heavy one day and light on another day to make up for it?
This is exactly what I do. I will probably eat 3500 calories today but balance it out over the week. And I'm in a deficit.
I tried something very similar to that once, but it didn't work out because I was still in a deficit. There were days where I would eat less than 500 calories some days in order to eat what I wanted other days. It came out to about 7K surplus for the week overall. So it is worth repeating this point: something that works for you might not work for those of us who have bigger appetites. For some of us, this plan doesn't help eliminate both hunger and weight, which is really the problem OP expects to encounter (and a problem I'm already encountering as I get closer and closer to goal).
Here is how that works for someone like me: I'm hungry all the time anyway, whether eating 500 or 1,500 or 2,500 calories... so no difference on most days. On some days, though, I can eat as much as I want and am not hungry. So then it is a matter of figuring out how often to have a day where I can eat as much as I want and still lose weight, and how much I can eat on other days. So figure 10K calories is what it takes to satisfy me in a day. If I do that once every 10 days, I can still keep an average deficit of 250 calories per day (1/2 lb. per week loss on average) as long as I eat 500 calories the other 9 days. For 9 days, I'm hungry no matter what, but at least once every 10 days, I am not hungry because I can finally eat. Of course this is a terrible idea and I'm not suggesting it. I just want to illustrate why those last few lbs. are so hard to lose for those of us with big appetites and a decreased RMR. Your weekly average idea is a daunting suggestion that is probably great for those with mediocre appetites, but not so great for others.
as a type 1 diabetic you are killing yourself...you will have issues with your limbs, kidneys and eyesight if you don't get control of yourself...I know as I have a brother who has been a diabetic since he was six.
You remind of the other diabetic I knew who didn't want to exercise but the food they needed to keep healthy was a lot...and they got chubby so they stopped eating most of it...they nearly killed themselves and have lost limbs...and partially blind now...
smh...you know you have a condition and don't do what you need to do to stay healthy...wow just wow.
I understand type 1 diabetes extremely well and have more education on this disease than most physicians. I can take care of myself under most any WOE, just not lose weight in every circumstance. Thank you for your concern, but I got this.0 -
I would like to see a listing of the food you ate that tallied 4500 calories.
I just cannot fathom that many calories in a day.
@Resistive Off topic but, if you ask, you get. I'm a 5'5" woman, this was a deliberate day off from my food plan (but not logging) so if you ignore my fitbit adjustment that's all food I scarfed, and I skipped lunchThe_Enginerd wrote: »
Inb4 guy says this doesn't count because of "crap" food.
Ah well I never get anything right0 -
I get ya OP... It's is not easy and yes quite frankly it does suck. I'm still wrapping my head around the idea of "this is my life, I will have to eat well majority of the time". .... Sadly I was not born in a family of skinny people but tubbys that love food and want others to feel love from the food we make. I'm no where near maintenance so I don't even bother looking at what that will look like for me. Just takin' it day by day, best of luck! Know you are not alone
5 -
Wow what a frustrating thread... such good advice throughout only to be poo poohed or dismissed by those who clearly think that loving food and/or being a volume eater is such a unique thing that no one else could possibly relate. Y'all stopped short of saying that everyone else has it easier, but that was certainly the undertone I read.19
-
So I just did a little experiment. I started out just trying to see how many calories I would be able to eat per day once I reach my goal weight. The number was shockingly low. My TDEE, not including any exercise, will be 1899. That number hit me hard, I don't know how I can possibly live my life eating that few calories. I mean right now It's one thing because I am working very hard to cut weight, but to look up and see that there is no light at the end of the tunnel, because maintenance is so low calorie, its very discouraging.
So here's were the experiment comes into play. I thought, you know what, I've never just booked out a normal "non deiting" day, lets see how many calories that is. So I went into MFP and loaded up what I would eat on a normal day. Over 4500 calories!!! HOLY S**T!!!! No wonder people get so fat so quickly without even realizing whats happening!
So my takeaway: I don't know whats worse, thinking about how easy it was to get this way without even realizing what was going on, or thinking about how miserable its going to be trying to eat at maintenance once I get to my goal weight.
I hear you brother - this is essentially why I work out. So I can eat the foods I love!
The funny thing about working out and staying in shape is that is does not appear to be efficient. Our lives are wrapped around convenience and efficiency, but we often end up adding more time by working non-physical jobs, then spending time at a gym to keep in shape.
Start a progressive lifting program. This burns more calories and will make your output far more efficient.
Hang in there - kale and turkey bacon are not acceptable trade offs for longer life.3 -
dannijordan30 wrote: »Wow I could never imagine eating 4500 I would explode haha I even struggle eating 2000!
I think the timeframe in which you eat them and the composition of the food would make serious difference in your ability to eat that much. Like I probably could not complete a 4500 meal in one sitting, but I could eat/drink 4500 in one 24 hour period. I don't think there would be any problem as long as I paced myself.0 -
WinoGelato wrote: »Wow what a frustrating thread... such good advice throughout only to be poo poohed or dismissed by those who clearly think that loving food and/or being a volume eater is such a unique thing that no one else could possibly relate. Y'all stopped short of saying that everyone else has it easier, but that was certainly the undertone I read.
This
A million times over
We get it
We've all been there
You are no different from anyone else
No we don't love food any less
No it isn't easier for other people
No the world, your genetics, your health is not conspiring to make you and keep you fat. That is your choice. Every single mouthful, every moment of inactivity is your choice
Is it easy to change? Hell no
It is worth it? Most of the time
Do you still pig out or laze around? Occasionally
Does the change feel permanent? Nope takes effort and focus even after 2 and a half years
When you're a healthy weight and happy in your body is life better? Yup ..no two ways about it, it's easier to be in shape than out of it. Moving, walking, enjoying yourself, health niggles, hormone levels, even a lot of serious health conditions are improved by being a healthy weight.
30 -
So before I get into what I'm about to say, I'd like to thank everyone who was constructive towards me while I was having a low moment.
A lot of you gave some great advice, even though I am pretty well versed in weight loss and knew a lot of it already. But here's the thing, I didn't ask for advice. There was no question in my original post. I was just making conversation about how difficult it is going to be to eat a reasonable amount of food once I get to my goal weight. Obviously, I have a problem when it comes to food. For a lot of you its just a thing you do 3ish times a day so you will continue to have energy and live. For me, its almost ceremonious. Eating is not just something I do to survive, its something I thoroughly enjoy. Meal time is something I look forward to for reasons other than hunger. Telling me to just eat healthier/lower calorie/more nutritious/whatever foods is like telling a cocaine addict that he should just smoke pot instead and everything will be alright. It's not a matter of knowing what to do, because God knows I know exactly what to do, its a matter of being able to do it. I'm only on day 12 and I've been doing well so far. There is no reason for me to believe I cant continue what I'm doing for many months. It's after that that concerns me, and once again, its not that I can't, its that I'm having to chose between something I enjoy, and something I need to be healthy. There's no answer, no way to fix it. I didn't ask anyone to help me solve the problem. I was just making conversation about how it sucks.
Also, to the guy who couldn't figure out how I ate 4500 (a rounded number) calories in a day, book this out:
Breakfast - A.M. Sausage Crunchwrap from Taco Bell
Lunch - 5 Krystals and a Chili Chese Fry from Krystal
Afternoon Snack - King Size Kit-Kat and 16oz Red Bull
Dinner - Cajun Chicken Pasta from Chili's
Throughout the day (including at meals)- About 80oz of Coke
If you are thinking about saying "well surely you don't eat the same thing ever day", no, but similar. And I did drink about the same amount of coke every day and eat a candy bar (sometimes a Mounds or a Twix) and a Red Bull every day.
Again, I'm not asking you for help, I'm just making conversation about how much it F#*$&%@ sucks.
So this thread was a gigantic waste of everyones time then.
What a shame.
Either the OP's intent should be respected, and those should stop telling him how to eat, OR
the forum gets to use the OP's situation as their pet project to educate the "lurkers" (which would imply that it was not a "gigantic waste of everyones [sic] time").
You can't have it both ways.8 -
dannijordan30 wrote: »Wow I could never imagine eating 4500 I would explode haha I even struggle eating 2000!
I am with you. At 1450 cals max and sometimes not even reaching that number, I am already stuffed. I would puke and be sick for days if I ate that much.1 -
I can relate a lot to your situation. I'm 5' 6", I was 210 lbs, and had a 40" waist. I'm 40 years old now. I lost 65 lbs by managing my calories and 30 min on an exercise bike 6 days a week. Down to a 30" waist. Took about 18 months to do that. I've since put on 15 lbs of muscle so at 160 lbs now (which took way longer than losing weight). I've kept that weight off of 3 or 4 years now. Food I liked was as you described, fried, cheese, sauce, etc. I didn't cut anything out completely, but I cut way back on portions and frequency. Loaded up on good stuff - I think that's the key. Find ways of substituting good stuff in the foods you like for the bad while sacrificing as little flavor as possible. Ground turkey has a lot less fat and calories than ground beef. Fish is a great lower calorie protein source as well. Also, my cravings for all those "bad" foods actually diminished a lot. When you eat too much of the salt, fat, sugar, etc., you crave it so much more, it's like a flavor addiction. When you eat less of it and less often you seem to crave it less. At least that is how it has been for me and several other people I know that have done the same.2
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dannijordan30 wrote: »Wow I could never imagine eating 4500 I would explode haha I even struggle eating 2000!
I am with you. At 1450 cals max and sometimes not even reaching that number, I am already stuffed. I would puke and be sick for days if I ate that much.
The thread was really not about how much someone cannot eat without puking. And what does it add to the thread anyway? Someone else might eat 1450 calories and puke, but who cares. I have been eating around 1800 calories for the past year and a half. Obviously everyone is different . Really if you have nothing positive to say then why add a comment that is pointless and useless.4
This discussion has been closed.
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