Welcome to Debate Club! Please be aware that this is a space for respectful debate, and that your ideas will be challenged here. Please remember to critique the argument, not the author.
Flu shots? For them or against ?
Options
Replies
-
youngmomtaz wrote: »GemstoneofHeart wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »kshama2001 wrote: »Rosemary7391 wrote: »Rosemary7391 wrote: »get your damn flu shots people, come on! Anti-Vaxxers are cancer.
Not getting a flu shot doesn't make you an anti-vaxxer any more than not getting your rabies shot, not getting the yellow fever jab, cholera etc etc does. It probably just means you don't live in an area where flu/rabies/yellow fever/cholera/etc is a major problem. I'm getting a bit annoyed that folks don't seem to want to distinguish and I don't think it helps to convince people who are genuinely anti vaccine either - lets face it, if they're in an area where flu isn't an issue it's one of the harder ones to convince them about since you have to go and get it every year and it's known it's a best guess effort. Measles is measles is measles - better to start there+similar I'd think?
nope, sorry, not buying it.
The "not an issue in my area" is a disingenuous cop out. We live in a massively interconnected planet. People travel to and from cities, states, entire countries. A flu epidemic could spread into an area where it's "not an issue" in a matter of days, and overwhelm the medical infrastructure.
Unless you live in a bubble, get your damn shots.
Have you had every vaccine going then? There are quite a few... I suspect if there was a flu epidemic it wouldn't be the strain that was in the vaccine - if it was then it wouldn't spread so quickly. If it was recommended for travel I would of course get it (as I have other vaccines), but I've just checked (for travel to the US) and it isn't.
Just think about this - you've annoyed me, and I'm for vaccines as recommended by the relevant medical practitioners. Do you think you're likely to persuade people who are really anti vaccines to join the queue every year with your current approach?
I have every vaccine that's ever been recommended to me by a doctor. Plus vaccines for HPV, Anthrax, Smallpox, and a few other misc picked up over the years.
There is simply NO scientifically sound reason not to get vaccines unless you have a very specific medical condition that would contraindicate them. None.
Flu shots especially, considering they're stupidly cheep and available for free to most people who can't afford the pittance they cost.
And I don't particularly care if my approach convinces anybody. If you bristle at my approach that's a problem with you. Would you question the color of the sky because I don't coddle you and try to explain it in warm and fuzzy terms? Maybe. That's not my problem.
Ditch the anti-science hokem and get your shots.
HPV? Wow, that's dedication.
I don't think it's unusual for a man to get that shot. My son will be getting it this year.
More men need to get the HPV vaccine. HPV causes virtually no symptoms in men and they usually never know they have it, meanwhile they are passing it to women without knowing. Yes this is the case for any STD/I, but most at some point give males a symptom while this one does not.
I have always been completely confused by the "marketing" for this vaccine. We were always told that men carried it too and passed it around unknowingly, so I could not figure out why they were pushing only females to get the shot. Also the age thing. Why not vaccinate all females? Protect us? It has always just felt like some giant research project to me. And they wonder why we won't trust them...
There's no good reason to oppose it. But evangelical christians and the religious right have fought tooth and nail to kill it or make it optional, because the though of girls having sex absolutely terrifies them.
Here in Texas the Bible beaters were absolutely apoplectic when doctors started recommending the HPV vaccine. They tried to make it ILLEGAL for doctors to even suggest it to parents.
Oh trust me, I get that part. I grew up in a Mennonite community and though my parents were only partly acceptable to the "church" I still had many conversations about my "purity". I just could not understand why we were taught facts while the vaccine was only free to an extremely small group of the population.1 -
I don't get the flu shot...not for any particular reason, just never have. I also forgot my internet pitchfork so I feel I can not participate in this thread.2
-
GaleHawkins wrote: »medscape.com/viewarticle/855937
"Summing Up the Data
A 2012 systematic review and meta-analysis[21] examined the efficacy and effectiveness of licensed influenza vaccines in patients with confirmed influenza illness. The authors confirmed that the original "recommendation to vaccinate the elderly was made without data for vaccine efficacy or effectiveness." The main message was that we need a better vaccine and better studies to demonstrate its effectiveness.
Despite the lack of high-quality data supporting the value of the flu shot, widespread vaccination policy might still be reasonable if observational studies consistently showed a benefit. However, the observational studies cited by flu shot proponents are frequently flawed.[22,23,24,25,26,27,28] In many studies, relevant clinical outcomes are ignored in favor of immunogenicity (ie, the ability to elicit an antibody response). "Influenza-like illness" (ie, cold symptoms) is frequently measured instead of serious outcomes, such as pneumonia or death. When these more serious outcomes are examined, there is often a failure to control for healthy user bias—the propensity for healthier people to do such things as receive annual check-ups, eat healthier foods, and get the flu shot. So, although it's true that people who get flu shots live longer, it may have nothing to do with actually getting the flu shot.
A 2005 study of a 33-season, national data set attempted to reconcile the reduced all-cause morbidity and mortality found in some observational studies of influenza vaccination with the fact that "national influenza mortality rates among seniors increased in the 1980s and 1990s as the senior vaccination coverage quadrupled."[29] In this study, the authors conclude that:
"[Our] estimates, which provide the best available national estimates of the fraction of all winter deaths that are specifically attributable to influenza, show that the observational studies must overstate the mortality benefits of the vaccine...[even during two pandemic seasons] the estimated influenza-related mortality was probably very close to what would have occurred had no vaccine been available."
The rationale for flu immunization as a national health priority is that influenza is a disease with serious complications, such as pneumonia, hospitalization, and death.[5,13,28] If the reason for influenza vaccination is that flu is such a serious disease, then the relevant outcomes are whether vaccination improves morbidity and mortality from flu. However, after decades of vaccine use, it is hard to detect any public health impact. This is in stark contrast to other routine vaccinations, such as polio and Haemophilus influenzae type b, where introduction of the vaccine led to obvious decline of the disease.
We are pediatricians, and we believe in childhood immunizations. Many vaccines have provided immense public health value. We simply question whether the policy of routine influenza vaccination has outpaced the data supporting its use.
Influenza vaccination now supersedes many other priorities of public health (such as obesity, illiteracy, and high school dropout), and we question whether so much time, effort, and money should be dedicated to flu vaccination while these other national healthcare priorities remain on the back burner."
This still doesn't support your claim. Here it is in case you forgot:The fact that MD's do not support requiring mandatory flu shots should be a clue to the lack of medical value of the flu shots
First of all, I just noticed your use of the word mandatory, the flu shot is not mandatory, no one is forced to get it. Unless of course you want a career in healthcare then you most likely will be forced to get one, but there are a few ways to opt out and you will most likely need to wear a mask while on duty if you do opt out.
The authors of this opinion piece you linked to don't explicitly say that they don't support the flu shot, they just question the policy of routine influenza vaccination. That is a subtle but important difference. They also base their opinion on their cherry picked data. And it is certainly cherry picked. If you look up influenza vaccine effectiveness on pubmed you will come up with over 2300 citations, they chose to look at about a half dozen. And with that many articles to choose from it is very easy to find a couple that support their narrative.
To sum up, what you posted doesn't support your claim. Your going to need to do better.
Still waiting for the study that shows Vit D protects better than the flu vaccine.
Also waiting for data to back up the unsupported claim that diseases are caused by a mental state over time.
6 -
kshama2001 wrote: »cmriverside wrote: »kshama2001 wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »I said this upstream and I will repeat it again:
Anyone in this thread who is saying they had the flu who is willing to have it again...
NEVER HAD THE FLU.
If you were not praying for death, you did not have the flu. You had a bad cold. Full stop.
If you had ever had the flu, you would move heaven and earth to never, ever have it again and to ensure your children never had it.
It is awful.
I say this as a person with a very much above average pain/discomfort tolerance. I cite as reference the fact that I had a broken ankle that I soldiered through with just OTC pain meds and ice packs because I couldn't tolerate the prescription pain meds.
The real flu is not something people who have had it are blithe about.
I've been to the emergency room twice - once for a brown recluse spider bite and once for the flu. The nurse kept telling me I couldn't have the flu, I'd had the shot. Eventually he concluded I did indeed have the flu. This was in 1990 and I haven't had the shot or the flu since.
I do take Vitamin D, but that's only been regular since I returned from seven years in Florida in 2011.
I'm not here to talk anyone else out of getting the shot, but explaining why I chose to not get it for myself.
Yeah, this is a confusing story.
So you ended up in the ER because you had the flu. But you don't want a flu shot any more. That's...odd.
Flu shots are best-guesses as to the strain that may be around, but you can still catch other strains. I'll take some protection over none. I mean, there are virtually zero drawbacks to a flu shot.
The worse case of flu I've ever had was after getting the shot.
The worst injury I survived was after donning level III plate...yet this did not stop me from understanding ballistics and the use of body armor.
Start with a Microbiology 101 course.7 -
Against9
-
VintageFeline wrote: »GemstoneofHeart wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »kshama2001 wrote: »Rosemary7391 wrote: »Rosemary7391 wrote: »get your damn flu shots people, come on! Anti-Vaxxers are cancer.
Not getting a flu shot doesn't make you an anti-vaxxer any more than not getting your rabies shot, not getting the yellow fever jab, cholera etc etc does. It probably just means you don't live in an area where flu/rabies/yellow fever/cholera/etc is a major problem. I'm getting a bit annoyed that folks don't seem to want to distinguish and I don't think it helps to convince people who are genuinely anti vaccine either - lets face it, if they're in an area where flu isn't an issue it's one of the harder ones to convince them about since you have to go and get it every year and it's known it's a best guess effort. Measles is measles is measles - better to start there+similar I'd think?
nope, sorry, not buying it.
The "not an issue in my area" is a disingenuous cop out. We live in a massively interconnected planet. People travel to and from cities, states, entire countries. A flu epidemic could spread into an area where it's "not an issue" in a matter of days, and overwhelm the medical infrastructure.
Unless you live in a bubble, get your damn shots.
Have you had every vaccine going then? There are quite a few... I suspect if there was a flu epidemic it wouldn't be the strain that was in the vaccine - if it was then it wouldn't spread so quickly. If it was recommended for travel I would of course get it (as I have other vaccines), but I've just checked (for travel to the US) and it isn't.
Just think about this - you've annoyed me, and I'm for vaccines as recommended by the relevant medical practitioners. Do you think you're likely to persuade people who are really anti vaccines to join the queue every year with your current approach?
I have every vaccine that's ever been recommended to me by a doctor. Plus vaccines for HPV, Anthrax, Smallpox, and a few other misc picked up over the years.
There is simply NO scientifically sound reason not to get vaccines unless you have a very specific medical condition that would contraindicate them. None.
Flu shots especially, considering they're stupidly cheep and available for free to most people who can't afford the pittance they cost.
And I don't particularly care if my approach convinces anybody. If you bristle at my approach that's a problem with you. Would you question the color of the sky because I don't coddle you and try to explain it in warm and fuzzy terms? Maybe. That's not my problem.
Ditch the anti-science hokem and get your shots.
HPV? Wow, that's dedication.
I don't think it's unusual for a man to get that shot. My son will be getting it this year.
More men need to get the HPV vaccine. HPV causes virtually no symptoms in men and they usually never know they have it, meanwhile they are passing it to women without knowing. Yes this is the case for any STD/I, but most at some point give males a symptom while this one does not.
Isn't this a case of closing the gate after the horse has bolted in men that are already sexually active?
I believe so. Just like for females.
This is why children of both sexes should get it as young as possible. Don't even take a chance.
Yes, absolutely. I am very glad they have recommended it for boys in the US as well.
3 -
VintageFeline wrote: »GemstoneofHeart wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »kshama2001 wrote: »Rosemary7391 wrote: »Rosemary7391 wrote: »get your damn flu shots people, come on! Anti-Vaxxers are cancer.
Not getting a flu shot doesn't make you an anti-vaxxer any more than not getting your rabies shot, not getting the yellow fever jab, cholera etc etc does. It probably just means you don't live in an area where flu/rabies/yellow fever/cholera/etc is a major problem. I'm getting a bit annoyed that folks don't seem to want to distinguish and I don't think it helps to convince people who are genuinely anti vaccine either - lets face it, if they're in an area where flu isn't an issue it's one of the harder ones to convince them about since you have to go and get it every year and it's known it's a best guess effort. Measles is measles is measles - better to start there+similar I'd think?
nope, sorry, not buying it.
The "not an issue in my area" is a disingenuous cop out. We live in a massively interconnected planet. People travel to and from cities, states, entire countries. A flu epidemic could spread into an area where it's "not an issue" in a matter of days, and overwhelm the medical infrastructure.
Unless you live in a bubble, get your damn shots.
Have you had every vaccine going then? There are quite a few... I suspect if there was a flu epidemic it wouldn't be the strain that was in the vaccine - if it was then it wouldn't spread so quickly. If it was recommended for travel I would of course get it (as I have other vaccines), but I've just checked (for travel to the US) and it isn't.
Just think about this - you've annoyed me, and I'm for vaccines as recommended by the relevant medical practitioners. Do you think you're likely to persuade people who are really anti vaccines to join the queue every year with your current approach?
I have every vaccine that's ever been recommended to me by a doctor. Plus vaccines for HPV, Anthrax, Smallpox, and a few other misc picked up over the years.
There is simply NO scientifically sound reason not to get vaccines unless you have a very specific medical condition that would contraindicate them. None.
Flu shots especially, considering they're stupidly cheep and available for free to most people who can't afford the pittance they cost.
And I don't particularly care if my approach convinces anybody. If you bristle at my approach that's a problem with you. Would you question the color of the sky because I don't coddle you and try to explain it in warm and fuzzy terms? Maybe. That's not my problem.
Ditch the anti-science hokem and get your shots.
HPV? Wow, that's dedication.
I don't think it's unusual for a man to get that shot. My son will be getting it this year.
More men need to get the HPV vaccine. HPV causes virtually no symptoms in men and they usually never know they have it, meanwhile they are passing it to women without knowing. Yes this is the case for any STD/I, but most at some point give males a symptom while this one does not.
Isn't this a case of closing the gate after the horse has bolted in men that are already sexually active?
Sorry I don't understand your reference?0 -
It's not a good reference, because even if you take the most pessimistic estimate that 1/4 men are carrying HPV without knowing it, you still have a 75% of chance off preventing them from getting it, and spreading it, in the first place.
The horse might have bolted, but there's only a 1 in 4 chance he's made it out of the pen.2 -
I posted on this ages ago with lots of references. Basically, I am pro vaccination but I assess each vaccine on its own merits. It is not logical to assume all vaccines are effective or to assume they are all ineffective. The flu vaccine is a shot in the dark. There are over a million flu viruses out there and they continue to mutate rapidly. The flu vaccine is at most effective against four strains. A Canadian study done during the swine flu pandemic showed that those who were unvaccinated with the annual flu shot were LESS likely to catch this new flu strain, than were those who had had the annual flu jab. This caused the recognition that the flu jab has a negative immunity cost to it towards all those strains not in the vaccine ( the other 999,996). Obviously the vaccine protects against the strains it vaccinated against...but not completely because it often mutates between the time they produce the flu jab and the actual flu season, hence the infrequent deaths of people dying from the very strain they were supposedly vaccinated against.
The CDC and NHS are not actually tracking flu hospitalisations and deaths. I posted some links on this as well earlier up the thread. It is all estimates based on general information...like everyone that died of respiratory failure. They don't even know for sure that flu deaths have decreased since the vaccine was introduced...again it's just estimates.
To everyone whinging on about immunity and immune compromised individuals...I'm one of them and I'm fine with it. Yep I have chronic bronchitis and asthma and have had the flu before. Don't feel guilted into getting the jab on my account. Please
To all those whining about herd immunity and me passing the flu to them...if you've had your jab, then I can't pass those flu strains on to you can I? If you think I can, then that means the flu jab isn't working, which according to you it works like a charm. If you truly believe the flu jab works great, then you're immune to the flu and can't catch any of the strains you've vaccinated against from me. If you do catch a flu virus from me, then it wasn't one you were vaccinated against and you would have caught it anyway.
I'm glad you're fine about it but others are not. I also have asthma and chronic bronchitis as well as another condition for which I take immunosuppressive medication. And the point of herd immunity is to protect people who are vulnerable. I get the jab each year but the medications I take mean (So I'm told) that the jab is less effective and/or may take longer to be effective. So I am still vulnerable. And herd immunity helps to lessen the risk.4 -
Public health does some of the immunizing in the schools during the year. Just got consent forms for my 14yo son yesterday. HPV is included as of 2016 apparently. Sorry for the derailment from the flu discussion, I just thought it was timely. The attached pic is a chunk of the info the public health agency of Canada sends out with consent forms. In their very limited and basic explanations, it looks like HPV has a role in far more male deaths per year(in Manitoba) than female. So it is still beyond me why they have taken so long to include males in the program.4
-
Davidc1961 wrote: »Anti-Vaxers are idiots, and if they only hurt themselves, that would be fine by me, but people who are genuinely allergic to ingredients, like eggs, depend on the rest of us for herd immunity. I get every vaccine available, including for the flu, and have never had a complication worse than a minor sore spot at the injection site for a day or so. GET VACCINATED!
This. I wish more people were as intelligent as you.3 -
youngmomtaz wrote: »Public health does some of the immunizing in the schools during the year. Just got consent forms for my 14yo son yesterday. HPV is included as of 2016 apparently. Sorry for the derailment from the flu discussion, I just thought it was timely. The attached pic is a chunk of the info the public health agency of Canada sends out with consent forms. In their very limited and basic explanations, it looks like HPV has a role in far more male deaths per year(in Manitoba) than female. So it is still beyond me why they have taken so long to include males in the program.
this is excellent. Glad to see that somebody had the sense to decouple HPV from its image as an STD. Maybe you folks in the great white north are just more sensible than us.1 -
To all those whining about herd immunity and me passing the flu to them...if you've had your jab, then I can't pass those flu strains on to you can I? If you think I can, then that means the flu jab isn't working, which according to you it works like a charm. If you truly believe the flu jab works great, then you're immune to the flu and can't catch any of the strains you've vaccinated against from me. If you do catch a flu virus from me, then it wasn't one you were vaccinated against and you would have caught it anyway.
This isn't valid. No one on any level has ever claimed that the vaccine is 100% effective or "works like a charm." The truth is that vaccines fail, even when they are well matched to the circulating strain, because they rely on the immune system of the person who has been vaccinated to work. That means that the people who need the vaccine the most - those with weakened immune systems, cancer patients, the elderly - are the ones for whom the vaccine is most likely to fail. Those people depend on other people to stay healthy and not expose them.
Those people don't have a choice about their immune systems. However, people with healthy immune systems who don't get the shot, then get the flu and pass it on to them, did have a choice. Be less selfish. GET THE SHOT. DON'T KILL SOMEONE.
Every fall and winter I find myself hating people. I have two diseases which make me high risk - lupus and diabetes - and I try to avoid public places during flu season. But it's impossible to stay at home for three months unless you are a billionaire hermit, so I wind up going to the grocery store and standing in line behind some woman and her children all coughing in chorus without covering their mouths. In fact I have never seen a human being in public cover the mouth while coughing. If I try to stand further away, they move up and stand on top of me. If I dare to go to a movie, I go at odd hours when I am the only person there and sit in a weird seat off to the side, and at the last moment some guy comes and sits directly behind me and sneezes on my hair. Last year I ate at a restaurant next to a woman who explained to her friend that her child, stretched out in the booth, was grumpy because he had a 102 degree fever. Who drags a sick child to a fancy restaurant? Geebus people stay home when you're sick and leave me out of it!7 -
Not wanting to keep resurrecting this thread but I saw this today. I suffer from IBD. Worth a read for all those saying that the vaccine should only be for those who are immunovonoromised. It's possible that immunosuppressant medication actually inhibits the immune response to vaccines, making them less effective. We therefore rely on here immunity.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5114511/3 -
I use to get them every year, and every year I'd get sick, not flu sick usually just have to run to the bathroom the next few days, this got worse as I got older. One year I got one and woke up that night freezing and shaking horribly for about an hour and feeling my heart racing. I gave up getting them after that. I'm not saying I got the flu but something in the shot I do not react well to. I've gotten other shots and immunizations and they don't bother me but the flue shot does.3
-
I use to get them every year, and every year I'd get sick, not flu sick usually just have to run to the bathroom the next few days, this got worse as I got older. One year I got one and woke up that night freezing and shaking horribly for about an hour and feeling my heart racing. I gave up getting them after that. I'm not saying I got the flu but something in the shot I do not react well to. I've gotten other shots and immunizations and they don't bother me but the flue shot does.
When they ask you if you ever had reactions in the past, did you answer truthfully? Because there are options.
That just seems really odd. Are you sure it wasn't too many beers? (Kidding not kidding)1 -
My husband and I always get our vaccines. It's important to me as a diabetic that I protect myself as much as possible from serious illnesses. Though I was tickled that I still came down with pneumonia a year after getting both pneumonia shots. Not tickled about having pneumonia, just amused by the concidence.
Anyway, we always make fun of the anti-vaxxers and say that the autisms got us after a flu shot (please bore we are not making fun of autism, that's not funny and I mean NO offense of you or a loved one has autism, just the people who don't understand science and think that vaccines cause it). This year the autisms caused our arms to fall off a la Monty Python. We got better though. We were only mostly dead.
4 -
I have never had one and never had the flu. My ex had to get them every year and every year got the flu. I'm under no illusion that he got the flu from the shot but it obviously didn't cover the new strain he picked up every year. If I was to get the flu I'd use the over flowing sick hours I never seem to use at work and stay out of every ones hair. On that note I am "young" healthy and it wouldn't be a huge issue for me to have the flu. When I am older and it would be I'm sure I'll reconsider.4
-
Ah the arrogance of the young. Try driving without headlights because you haven't had an accident yet. Besides, you have excellent night vision and you can see where you are going. What could go wrong?
I don't think anti-vaxxers are stupid. They have different ways to weigh evidence. There's an element of fear in there somewhere. Is it lab coats, big faceless government/pharma, body invasion, unnatural, or wisdom sourced outside the bible?2
This discussion has been closed.
Categories
- All Categories
- 1.4M Health, Wellness and Goals
- 392K Introduce Yourself
- 43.5K Getting Started
- 259.8K Health and Weight Loss
- 175.7K Food and Nutrition
- 47.4K Recipes
- 232.3K Fitness and Exercise
- 400 Sleep, Mindfulness and Overall Wellness
- 6.4K Goal: Maintaining Weight
- 8.5K Goal: Gaining Weight and Body Building
- 152.8K Motivation and Support
- 7.9K Challenges
- 1.3K Debate Club
- 96.3K Chit-Chat
- 2.5K Fun and Games
- 3.4K MyFitnessPal Information
- 23 News and Announcements
- 991 Feature Suggestions and Ideas
- 2.4K MyFitnessPal Tech Support Questions