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Provide Your Sources
MelanieCN77
Posts: 4,047 Member
There should be a posting rule, where if you say something like "research says" or "studies show" or "I read somewhere that" that you have to provide a link or at least a title and author reference to your source.
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Replies
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Good thought but probably superfluous - as a community we're good at holding each other accountable
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If we did that we would have higher standards than modern journalism does.38
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Modern journalism has a tough time already in this age of "facts are partisan."1
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MelanieCN77 wrote: »Modern journalism has a tough time already in this age of "facts are partisan."
Thats not what I heard last night*
*Citation: yo mamma
...
Sorry. I realize that didn't even make sense, but I had to do it because when faced with a sad reality you have to laugh sometimes.
Problem is even if this was somehow an enforced rule, that you have to cite sources, there is nothing inherient in that requirement that people have to actually have read said sources before citing them. How many times have you seen a person say "OMG science proves X is really toxic" and then proceeds to "cite" 15 different scientific studies they copy-pasted the links off of their google scholar search of "X is really toxic". It forces the reader of their comment to either believe those links are valid or put in the effort to read them which the original poster didn't bother to do. So it still ends up falling to the reader to check sources whether the originator cited their sources or not.16 -
Studies show that most people on MFP don't actually read the studies they post anyway.26
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God we sound like a bunch of old farts
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Whippersnappers.4
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For what it's worth, OP, I don't disagree with the premise that if a person is going to cite "studies" they should put up their sources. I'm just also a smartass.4
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I think I just want people to be more curious for themselves. Some results for "I read somewhere:"
- a potato at night time is good
- it's bad for you to cook with [olive oil]
- that popcorn has fibre
- that you should not call them cheat meals
- that it's best to eat fruits in the morning and afternoon
- that long running sessions are really bad for you
- that sugar calories from fruit do not count
- that we eat about a pound of bugs a year
- that if you have a high body fat % it's pointless to do an exercises until you loose some weight
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I'd rather be a smart *kitten*!2
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It wouldn't solve anything. I've seen plenty of people cite "sources" that are complete garbage. Sources that make Dr. Oz look credible by comparison.10
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MelanieCN77 wrote: »- that we eat about a pound of bugs a year
That would explain why I'm not losing weight... I'm not accounting for the calories in that pound of bugs!
On a more serious note:
I
all the awesome people here on MFP who are teaching me (by me lurking in threads) to double check the sources and actually READ the sources I quote and use (applicable not just on an online forum but also in my work). It makes me realize just how little I know, especially about checking and validating my sources (literature studies don't provide much rigor in that regard. I'm good at taking apart a text and picking at its flaws, but not so much at checking that it's a valid source. 6 -
As someone with the tendancy to do that, I don't like your idea, because sometimes you read the information or heard it a few years ago, or from someone else so you don't know the original source. You just feel it in your gut.1
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magicpickles wrote: »As someone with the tendancy to do that, I don't like your idea, because sometimes you read the information or heard it a few years ago, or from someone else so you don't know the original source. You just feel it in your gut.
You'll forgive me if I'd prefer to rely on information from legit sources, rather than someone's 'gut'.6 -
I hear this thread is giving out werther's original and other assorted hard candy? Where can I get some?
Unfortunately, controlling information on the internet is very hard. At best you should question everything. But that is if you care about having the correct information. Even if that information is from "reputable" sources. In fact, Dr. Layne Norton (one of the people I follow very closely) even recommends that you question everything he says. And his background is in bodybuilding, powerlifting and holds a PhD in nutritional science.11 -
Question Authority! (I graduated HS in 68)
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FWIW, I read to learn, not so I can prove a point on some message board. I don't bookmark studies, articles, etc, so I rarely have sources at the ready if my thoughts don't fit all nice and tidy with what others think.4
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FWIW, I read to learn, not so I can prove a point on some message board. I don't bookmark studies, articles, etc, so I rarely have sources at the ready if my thoughts don't fit all nice and tidy with what others think.
That's really OK as long as you're not presenting your opinion as scientific fact. Most of the discussions on the message boards are informal - this is the debate forum so here you would be expected to back up what you say.8 -
FWIW, I read to learn, not so I can prove a point on some message board. I don't bookmark studies, articles, etc, so I rarely have sources at the ready if my thoughts don't fit all nice and tidy with what others think.
That's really OK as long as you're not presenting your opinion as scientific fact. Most of the discussions on the message boards are informal - this is the debate forum so here you would be expected to back up what you say.
Isn't there also an expectation that, in a debate forum, people would be open minded to differing points? Don't forget, facts change over time (i.e. the world is no longer flat)... and nowhere is that more evident than in topics of health.
And just to be clear, I'm mostly playing devil's advocate here. I think the overwhelming majority of the MFP regulars enjoy the learning and the helping as much as anything else.2 -
FWIW, I read to learn, not so I can prove a point on some message board. I don't bookmark studies, articles, etc, so I rarely have sources at the ready if my thoughts don't fit all nice and tidy with what others think.
That's really OK as long as you're not presenting your opinion as scientific fact. Most of the discussions on the message boards are informal - this is the debate forum so here you would be expected to back up what you say.
Isn't there also an expectation that, in a debate forum, people would be open minded to differing points? Don't forget, facts change over time (i.e. the world is no longer flat)... and nowhere is that more evident than in topics of health.
And just to be clear, I'm mostly playing devil's advocate here. I think the overwhelming majority of the MFP regulars enjoy the learning and the helping as much as anything else.
In a debate one has to back up what you present as fact with a citation just like you do when you are writing an academic paper. Proper debates aren't the place to make up "facts"5 -
FWIW, I read to learn, not so I can prove a point on some message board. I don't bookmark studies, articles, etc, so I rarely have sources at the ready if my thoughts don't fit all nice and tidy with what others think.
That's really OK as long as you're not presenting your opinion as scientific fact. Most of the discussions on the message boards are informal - this is the debate forum so here you would be expected to back up what you say.
Isn't there also an expectation that, in a debate forum, people would be open minded to differing points? Don't forget, facts change over time (i.e. the world is no longer flat)... and nowhere is that more evident than in topics of health.
And just to be clear, I'm mostly playing devil's advocate here. I think the overwhelming majority of the MFP regulars enjoy the learning and the helping as much as anything else.
Oh yes, I absolutely agree! For me, that's the whole purpose of a debate!2 -
singingflutelady wrote: »FWIW, I read to learn, not so I can prove a point on some message board. I don't bookmark studies, articles, etc, so I rarely have sources at the ready if my thoughts don't fit all nice and tidy with what others think.
That's really OK as long as you're not presenting your opinion as scientific fact. Most of the discussions on the message boards are informal - this is the debate forum so here you would be expected to back up what you say.
Isn't there also an expectation that, in a debate forum, people would be open minded to differing points? Don't forget, facts change over time (i.e. the world is no longer flat)... and nowhere is that more evident than in topics of health.
And just to be clear, I'm mostly playing devil's advocate here. I think the overwhelming majority of the MFP regulars enjoy the learning and the helping as much as anything else.
In a debate one has to back up what you present as fact with a citation just like you do when you are writing an academic paper. Proper debates aren't the place to make up "facts"
Maybe it's the way I read/interpret things, but isn't there a lot of gray area between making up facts and proving something with scientific data? Just because I don't have a link to post doesn't mean my point is necessarily wrong. Especially in a forum like MFP, where a point can be valid or invalid simply based on context, which is often left out (though, less so in this forum than in the other general forums).
Again, devil's advocate.1 -
singingflutelady wrote: »FWIW, I read to learn, not so I can prove a point on some message board. I don't bookmark studies, articles, etc, so I rarely have sources at the ready if my thoughts don't fit all nice and tidy with what others think.
That's really OK as long as you're not presenting your opinion as scientific fact. Most of the discussions on the message boards are informal - this is the debate forum so here you would be expected to back up what you say.
Isn't there also an expectation that, in a debate forum, people would be open minded to differing points? Don't forget, facts change over time (i.e. the world is no longer flat)... and nowhere is that more evident than in topics of health.
And just to be clear, I'm mostly playing devil's advocate here. I think the overwhelming majority of the MFP regulars enjoy the learning and the helping as much as anything else.
In a debate one has to back up what you present as fact with a citation just like you do when you are writing an academic paper. Proper debates aren't the place to make up "facts"
Maybe it's the way I read/interpret things, but isn't there a lot of gray area between making up facts and proving something with scientific data? Just because I don't have a link to post doesn't mean my point is necessarily wrong. Especially in a forum like MFP, where a point can be valid or invalid simply based on context, which is often left out (though, less so in this forum than in the other general forums).
Again, devil's advocate.
True I do agree about the gray area. I was going to edit that out but didn't get a chance. No it doesn't necessarily make your point wrong but it does help if you can back up your claim. I have seen lots of crazy things stated as facts that are never backed up.1 -
FWIW, I read to learn, not so I can prove a point on some message board. I don't bookmark studies, articles, etc, so I rarely have sources at the ready if my thoughts don't fit all nice and tidy with what others think.
That's really OK as long as you're not presenting your opinion as scientific fact. Most of the discussions on the message boards are informal - this is the debate forum so here you would be expected to back up what you say.
Isn't there also an expectation that, in a debate forum, people would be open minded to differing points? Don't forget, facts change over time (i.e. the world is no longer flat)... and nowhere is that more evident than in topics of health.
And just to be clear, I'm mostly playing devil's advocate here. I think the overwhelming majority of the MFP regulars enjoy the learning and the helping as much as anything else.
Would you prefer to wade through a forum of people repeating the same irrational nonsense opinion in perpetuity or at would you at least like to see them attempt to formulate and present a position based on a rational observation that is demonstrably tied to some form of logic?0 -
singingflutelady wrote: »FWIW, I read to learn, not so I can prove a point on some message board. I don't bookmark studies, articles, etc, so I rarely have sources at the ready if my thoughts don't fit all nice and tidy with what others think.
That's really OK as long as you're not presenting your opinion as scientific fact. Most of the discussions on the message boards are informal - this is the debate forum so here you would be expected to back up what you say.
Isn't there also an expectation that, in a debate forum, people would be open minded to differing points? Don't forget, facts change over time (i.e. the world is no longer flat)... and nowhere is that more evident than in topics of health.
And just to be clear, I'm mostly playing devil's advocate here. I think the overwhelming majority of the MFP regulars enjoy the learning and the helping as much as anything else.
In a debate one has to back up what you present as fact with a citation just like you do when you are writing an academic paper. Proper debates aren't the place to make up "facts"
Maybe it's the way I read/interpret things, but isn't there a lot of gray area between making up facts and proving something with scientific data? Just because I don't have a link to post doesn't mean my point is necessarily wrong. Especially in a forum like MFP, where a point can be valid or invalid simply based on context, which is often left out (though, less so in this forum than in the other general forums).
Again, devil's advocate.
Well, unless it's stated clearly in the beginning that the debate is about opinions, not scientific facts (this is a legitimate type of debate), sources need to be cited. Questioning the sources is of course to be expected and that's where I think persuading people to change their minds would be most effective.
eta: Just my opinion of course
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FWIW, I read to learn, not so I can prove a point on some message board. I don't bookmark studies, articles, etc, so I rarely have sources at the ready if my thoughts don't fit all nice and tidy with what others think.
That's really OK as long as you're not presenting your opinion as scientific fact. Most of the discussions on the message boards are informal - this is the debate forum so here you would be expected to back up what you say.
Isn't there also an expectation that, in a debate forum, people would be open minded to differing points? Don't forget, facts change over time (i.e. the world is no longer flat)... and nowhere is that more evident than in topics of health.
And just to be clear, I'm mostly playing devil's advocate here. I think the overwhelming majority of the MFP regulars enjoy the learning and the helping as much as anything else.
Isn't there a difference between being open to new ideas and backing up what you say? You're shifting the goal posts here in your attempt to play devil's advocate (the devil needs no advocate. There are plenty doing that work in every debate).
I don't know you. I don't know if you're well-studied or just starting out. I don't know if you read a study two years ago or twenty. I don't know if it was presented to you accurately or if your memory of it is correct or hazy. Taking your word for it halts the discussion because I can't look into it further to see what information I'm missing.
If you don't want to provide sources, that's fine. It's never going to become a hard rule of the site. But it does turn a good, learnable discussion into nothing more than he said/she said.5 -
I have learned a lot about vetting sources and peer reviewed studies from reading posts on this site.5
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MelanieCN77 wrote: »There should be a posting rule, where if you say something like "research says" or "studies show" or "I read somewhere that" that you have to provide a link or at least a title and author reference to your source.
So if someone breaks this proposed rule what would you suggest the consequences be? Should the person ultimately be banned from posting? Can the moderators handle policing posts that much more than they already do?
What if someone posts "I read somewhere that prunes are good to eat if you are constipated". Do you come down on that person for not producing a prune study?2 -
MelanieCN77 wrote: »There should be a posting rule, where if you say something like "research says" or "studies show" or "I read somewhere that" that you have to provide a link or at least a title and author reference to your source.
OP, a question just occurred to me - are you talking about discussions in all forums or the debate forum specifically?0
This discussion has been closed.
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