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May we talk about set points?
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GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »And also, how would "set point" work with people who lost weight for 6 months, then gained back a significant amount. Is it their body wanting to be fat again? Or is it because they discontinued their habit of staying in control of calories?
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The thing that I've realized is that what DebSozo is arguing about is not a "set point", but rather about hunger/satiety signals regulating different weight levels.
She believes that people can retrain their hunger and satiety signals to achieve different certain weights so that you don't have to consciously regulate them.
Of course, if this logic played out and set point was a matter of hunger/satiety signals being in check and humming along smoothly leading to a desirable body weight ... why did she gain weight in the first place? How did her hunger/satiety signals get overridden?
To be clear, the point I'm making in pointing that out is the flaw in her logic that relying on hunger/satiety signals (or as she keeps saying, "autoregulation") as some sort of set point ignores very real factors like aging, an obesogenic environment, stress, and other things I'm sure I can't think of right now. These outside influences often override the feedback systems our body has in place, and since that can be done, it argues clearly against the idea of anything being "set".
Those overriding factors are what disrupt the maintenance set point. Stress, disease, injuries, and aging do have an impact.
"Set point"
Homeostasis-- http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/set-point
The OP used the word. This is the topic. Lol.
Here is a video that explains it better than I can:
http://study.com/academy/lesson/what-is-homeostasis-definition-examples-quiz.html
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hotel4dogs wrote: »Do others believe in "set points"? I have been reading a bit about them, and I think I have hit one. It seems that there are several weights that my body just likes, and it's harder to either lose or gain weight when I'm at a set point.
I think it's what makes maintaining so hard, if you are not at a "set point".
Here's some background information:
http://www.bidmc.org/YourHealth/BIDMCInteractive/BreakThroughYourSetPoint/WeekOneTheScienceofSetPoint.aspx
It appears that some people do not believe that the body forms them. But my body likes to settle in at certain points and will stay within a 4 pound span.0 -
Untrue. Go to Biggest Loser contestants who kept it off for a year or more and now are significantly heavier after that year is up. Ali Vincent went through this after almost 8 years of slowly creeping back up again because of surplusing.And also, how would "set point" work with people who lost weight for 6 months, then gained back a significant amount. Is it their body wanting to be fat again? Or is it because they discontinued their habit of staying in control of calories?
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Their body is trying to go back up to the previous higher set point. They would need to remain stable at the same weight for another 6 months or a year. Then the body will establish a new set point that it will help them maintain.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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Untrue. Go to Biggest Loser contestants who kept it off for a year or more and now are significantly heavier after that year is up. Ali Vincent went through this after almost 8 years of slowly creeping back up again because of surplusing.And also, how would "set point" work with people who lost weight for 6 months, then gained back a significant amount. Is it their body wanting to be fat again? Or is it because they discontinued their habit of staying in control of calories?
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Their body is trying to go back up to the previous higher set point. They would need to remain stable at the same weight for another 6 months or a year. Then the body will establish a new set point that it will help them maintain.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
I don't pretend to understand obesity or how it deregulates the body's homeostasis.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19410672
This article below says he started at over 400 pounds, got down around 200 pounds, and as of the time of this news article he was 300 pounds:
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/05/02/health/biggest-loser-weight-loss.html0 -
hotel4dogs wrote: »Do others believe in "set points"? I have been reading a bit about them, and I think I have hit one. It seems that there are several weights that my body just likes, and it's harder to either lose or gain weight when I'm at a set point.
I think it's what makes maintaining so hard, if you are not at a "set point".
Here's some background information:
http://www.bidmc.org/YourHealth/BIDMCInteractive/BreakThroughYourSetPoint/WeekOneTheScienceofSetPoint.aspx
It appears that some people do not believe that the body forms them. But my body likes to settle in at certain points and will stay within a 4 pound span.
Probably, people who don't believe in the concept, simply haven't experienced it.
And guess what, high weight variability predicts weight gain:
http://m.ajcn.nutrition.org/content/102/5/995.long?view=long&pmid=263545350 -
No when it stays there for long periods of time, it's because the person doesn't consciously overeat. I've been within 10lbs-15lbs of the same weight for 20+ years. If I DIDN'T watch my calorie count, I'd likely be 230lbs or more. Why? Because I LIKE to eat.GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »And also, how would "set point" work with people who lost weight for 6 months, then gained back a significant amount. Is it their body wanting to be fat again? Or is it because they discontinued their habit of staying in control of calories?
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
The thing that I've realized is that what DebSozo is arguing about is not a "set point", but rather about hunger/satiety signals regulating different weight levels.
She believes that people can retrain their hunger and satiety signals to achieve different certain weights so that you don't have to consciously regulate them.
Of course, if this logic played out and set point was a matter of hunger/satiety signals being in check and humming along smoothly leading to a desirable body weight ... why did she gain weight in the first place? How did her hunger/satiety signals get overridden?
To be clear, the point I'm making in pointing that out is the flaw in her logic that relying on hunger/satiety signals (or as she keeps saying, "autoregulation") as some sort of set point ignores very real factors like aging, an obesogenic environment, stress, and other things I'm sure I can't think of right now. These outside influences often override the feedback systems our body has in place, and since that can be done, it argues clearly against the idea of anything being "set".
When the body has a strong propensity to stay at the same weight for long periods that is considered by some people to be their set point.
You keep posting articles. How about some actual peer reviewed clinical study by say the Journal of Endocrinology and Metabolism or New England Journal of Medicine?It doesn't mean it can't be changed with effort and overriding. Your factors simply validate that the set point can go up or down due to extenuating circumstances.
This article suggests it can take up to 18 months to establish a new weight set point. http://nnc.fitness/homeostasis-brain-worst-enemy-weight-loss/
And even the articles you mention state that a HABITUAL change has to be made to attain this "set point" you speak of.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
6 -
"Physiological by body control mechanisms"......................meaning eating and physical activity. Or CICO to be precise. It's NOT AN AUTOMATIC thing.GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »And also, how would "set point" work with people who lost weight for 6 months, then gained back a significant amount. Is it their body wanting to be fat again? Or is it because they discontinued their habit of staying in control of calories?
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
The thing that I've realized is that what DebSozo is arguing about is not a "set point", but rather about hunger/satiety signals regulating different weight levels.
She believes that people can retrain their hunger and satiety signals to achieve different certain weights so that you don't have to consciously regulate them.
Of course, if this logic played out and set point was a matter of hunger/satiety signals being in check and humming along smoothly leading to a desirable body weight ... why did she gain weight in the first place? How did her hunger/satiety signals get overridden?
To be clear, the point I'm making in pointing that out is the flaw in her logic that relying on hunger/satiety signals (or as she keeps saying, "autoregulation") as some sort of set point ignores very real factors like aging, an obesogenic environment, stress, and other things I'm sure I can't think of right now. These outside influences often override the feedback systems our body has in place, and since that can be done, it argues clearly against the idea of anything being "set".
Those overriding factors are what disrupt the maintenance set point. Stress, disease, injuries, and aging do have an impact.
"Set point"
Homeostasis-- http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/set-point
The OP used the word. This is the topic. Lol.
Here is a video that explains it better than I can:
http://study.com/academy/lesson/what-is-homeostasis-definition-examples-quiz.html
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
4 -
"Physiological by body control mechanisms"......................meaning eating and physical activity. Or CICO to be precise. It's NOT AN AUTOMATIC thing.GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »And also, how would "set point" work with people who lost weight for 6 months, then gained back a significant amount. Is it their body wanting to be fat again? Or is it because they discontinued their habit of staying in control of calories?
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
The thing that I've realized is that what DebSozo is arguing about is not a "set point", but rather about hunger/satiety signals regulating different weight levels.
She believes that people can retrain their hunger and satiety signals to achieve different certain weights so that you don't have to consciously regulate them.
Of course, if this logic played out and set point was a matter of hunger/satiety signals being in check and humming along smoothly leading to a desirable body weight ... why did she gain weight in the first place? How did her hunger/satiety signals get overridden?
To be clear, the point I'm making in pointing that out is the flaw in her logic that relying on hunger/satiety signals (or as she keeps saying, "autoregulation") as some sort of set point ignores very real factors like aging, an obesogenic environment, stress, and other things I'm sure I can't think of right now. These outside influences often override the feedback systems our body has in place, and since that can be done, it argues clearly against the idea of anything being "set".
Those overriding factors are what disrupt the maintenance set point. Stress, disease, injuries, and aging do have an impact.
"Set point"
Homeostasis-- http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/set-point
The OP used the word. This is the topic. Lol.
Here is a video that explains it better than I can:
http://study.com/academy/lesson/what-is-homeostasis-definition-examples-quiz.html
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Are you saying you believe that your body cannot help you maintain at a certain steady weight for a long time?0 -
Obesity issue by far and wide are caused mainly by......................over consumption. Whether that trigger is from emotional eating, boredom eating, eating just to be happy, etc., it's a HABITUAL issue. It's changed by learning how to habitually eat less than they previously were. If the habitual behavior is continued, then the weight keeps coming down till they reach a goal they are happy with. At that point a calorie limit is set to maintain. If they keep eating less, they'll keep losing weight. If they eat more than they need, they will gain weight. There is no "set point". Their weight is DICTATED by CICO.
Untrue. Go to Biggest Loser contestants who kept it off for a year or more and now are significantly heavier after that year is up. Ali Vincent went through this after almost 8 years of slowly creeping back up again because of surplusing.And also, how would "set point" work with people who lost weight for 6 months, then gained back a significant amount. Is it their body wanting to be fat again? Or is it because they discontinued their habit of staying in control of calories?
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Their body is trying to go back up to the previous higher set point. They would need to remain stable at the same weight for another 6 months or a year. Then the body will establish a new set point that it will help them maintain.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
I don't pretend to understand obesity or how it deregulates the body's homeostasis.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19410672
This article below says he started at over 400 pounds, got down around 200 pounds, and as of the time of this news article he was 300 pounds:
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/05/02/health/biggest-loser-weight-loss.html
So why do people regain weight? Because they go back the the HABITS that made them gain it in the first place. Again, not because of a "set point".
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
4 -
I do believe when people plateau it is the body trying to establish an stabilize a set point. When I break a plateau I have to maintain for a long time to establish the new set point.0
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NM0
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This thread now reminds me of a poem I once read.
Haiku are real fun
But sometimes do not make sense
Refrigerator12 -
Lol0
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GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »And also, how would "set point" work with people who lost weight for 6 months, then gained back a significant amount. Is it their body wanting to be fat again? Or is it because they discontinued their habit of staying in control of calories?
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
The thing that I've realized is that what DebSozo is arguing about is not a "set point", but rather about hunger/satiety signals regulating different weight levels.
She believes that people can retrain their hunger and satiety signals to achieve different certain weights so that you don't have to consciously regulate them.
Of course, if this logic played out and set point was a matter of hunger/satiety signals being in check and humming along smoothly leading to a desirable body weight ... why did she gain weight in the first place? How did her hunger/satiety signals get overridden?
To be clear, the point I'm making in pointing that out is the flaw in her logic that relying on hunger/satiety signals (or as she keeps saying, "autoregulation") as some sort of set point ignores very real factors like aging, an obesogenic environment, stress, and other things I'm sure I can't think of right now. These outside influences often override the feedback systems our body has in place, and since that can be done, it argues clearly against the idea of anything being "set".
Those overriding factors are what disrupt the maintenance set point. Stress, disease, injuries, and aging do have an impact.
You haven't established there is such a thing as a set point, though. You're arguing that natural hunger/satiety signals regulate such a thing, therefore, there is one. That's ludicrous to assert in defense of higher weights.3 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »And also, how would "set point" work with people who lost weight for 6 months, then gained back a significant amount. Is it their body wanting to be fat again? Or is it because they discontinued their habit of staying in control of calories?
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
The thing that I've realized is that what DebSozo is arguing about is not a "set point", but rather about hunger/satiety signals regulating different weight levels.
She believes that people can retrain their hunger and satiety signals to achieve different certain weights so that you don't have to consciously regulate them.
Of course, if this logic played out and set point was a matter of hunger/satiety signals being in check and humming along smoothly leading to a desirable body weight ... why did she gain weight in the first place? How did her hunger/satiety signals get overridden?
To be clear, the point I'm making in pointing that out is the flaw in her logic that relying on hunger/satiety signals (or as she keeps saying, "autoregulation") as some sort of set point ignores very real factors like aging, an obesogenic environment, stress, and other things I'm sure I can't think of right now. These outside influences often override the feedback systems our body has in place, and since that can be done, it argues clearly against the idea of anything being "set".
When the body has a strong propensity to stay at the same weight for long periods that is considered by some people to be their set point.
It doesn't mean it can't be changed with effort and overriding. Your factors simply validate that the set point can go up or down due to extenuating circumstances.
This article suggests it can take up to 18 months to establish a new weight set point. http://nnc.fitness/homeostasis-brain-worst-enemy-weight-loss/
What kind of half-kittened reference was that? You are really scraping the bottom of the barrel here.7 -
hotel4dogs wrote: »Do others believe in "set points"? I have been reading a bit about them, and I think I have hit one. It seems that there are several weights that my body just likes, and it's harder to either lose or gain weight when I'm at a set point.
I think it's what makes maintaining so hard, if you are not at a "set point".
Here's some background information:
http://www.bidmc.org/YourHealth/BIDMCInteractive/BreakThroughYourSetPoint/WeekOneTheScienceofSetPoint.aspx
It appears that some people do not believe that the body forms them. But my body likes to settle in at certain points and will stay within a 4 pound span.
Sure. It has nothing to do with your eating or exercise habits. Nothing at all.
Right.4 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »And also, how would "set point" work with people who lost weight for 6 months, then gained back a significant amount. Is it their body wanting to be fat again? Or is it because they discontinued their habit of staying in control of calories?
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
The thing that I've realized is that what DebSozo is arguing about is not a "set point", but rather about hunger/satiety signals regulating different weight levels.
She believes that people can retrain their hunger and satiety signals to achieve different certain weights so that you don't have to consciously regulate them.
Of course, if this logic played out and set point was a matter of hunger/satiety signals being in check and humming along smoothly leading to a desirable body weight ... why did she gain weight in the first place? How did her hunger/satiety signals get overridden?
To be clear, the point I'm making in pointing that out is the flaw in her logic that relying on hunger/satiety signals (or as she keeps saying, "autoregulation") as some sort of set point ignores very real factors like aging, an obesogenic environment, stress, and other things I'm sure I can't think of right now. These outside influences often override the feedback systems our body has in place, and since that can be done, it argues clearly against the idea of anything being "set".
When the body has a strong propensity to stay at the same weight for long periods that is considered by some people to be their set point.
It doesn't mean it can't be changed with effort and overriding. Your factors simply validate that the set point can go up or down due to extenuating circumstances.
This article suggests it can take up to 18 months to establish a new weight set point. http://nnc.fitness/homeostasis-brain-worst-enemy-weight-loss/
A website selling their services and supplements cannot be considered a valid source.
"At Northampton Nutrition Centre, we can work with you on how to overcome your own brain so that you are not fighting yourself as you begin your journey to a healthier you."5 -
I used to think my body had a set point...but that was me just fooling myself that I could eat more than I actually could...
I wondered was it my lot to stay at my supposed set point, but no, I ate at deficit and eventually got to where I wanted to be.5 -
A quick thought before I go for my run...
A while back, I was involved in a conversation on this forum, I forget the exact topic, but Yarwell posted a study conducted by Brian Wansink (and others, I think) involving different foods and having them feel "filling" -- or something to that point.
The thing I've always remembered about that study is that the participants were told they were eating these ... I think they were either drinks or jelly cubes ... that would either expand in some way or do something ... upon reaching the stomach and become more filling. Now, this was all done in a controlled study fashion of course. The people were given foods that did absolutely nothing, and reported feeling fuller. Not only that, they had hormonal responses that showed being satiated by the feeding based entirely on believing they'd be satiatied .
This. This is why I cannot buy the shaky argument for autoregulation=set point. Because it's based on unreliable shifting sand.5 -
This article is VERY helpful in explaining about set points.
http://www.obesityaction.org/educational-resources/resource-articles-2/weight-loss-surgery/body-weight-set-point-what-we-know-and-what-we-dont-know0
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