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May we talk about set points?

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Replies

  • DebSozo
    DebSozo Posts: 2,578 Member
    GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »
    DebSozo wrote: »
    hotel4dogs wrote: »
    Do others believe in "set points"? I have been reading a bit about them, and I think I have hit one. It seems that there are several weights that my body just likes, and it's harder to either lose or gain weight when I'm at a set point.
    I think it's what makes maintaining so hard, if you are not at a "set point".
    Here's some background information:

    http://www.bidmc.org/YourHealth/BIDMCInteractive/BreakThroughYourSetPoint/WeekOneTheScienceofSetPoint.aspx

    It appears that some people do not believe that the body forms them. But my body likes to settle in at certain points and will stay within a 4 pound span.

    Sure. It has nothing to do with your eating or exercise habits. Nothing at all.

    Right.

    Of course it does. I have repeatedly said that it works together. Some people seem to think that it is only about "habits".
  • DebSozo
    DebSozo Posts: 2,578 Member
    RunRutheeRun wrote: »
    I used to think my body had a set point...but that was me just fooling myself that I could eat more than I actually could...
    I wondered was it my lot to stay at my supposed set point, but no, I ate at deficit and eventually got to where I wanted to be.

    And hopefully are maintaining at a new and lower weight set point...
  • LivingtheLeanDream
    LivingtheLeanDream Posts: 13,345 Member
    DebSozo wrote: »
    RunRutheeRun wrote: »
    I used to think my body had a set point...but that was me just fooling myself that I could eat more than I actually could...
    I wondered was it my lot to stay at my supposed set point, but no, I ate at deficit and eventually got to where I wanted to be.

    And hopefully are maintaining at a new and lower weight set point...

    yes @DebSozo I'm 7lbs under my goal weight and happy to stay there :)
  • ninerbuff
    ninerbuff Posts: 48,488 Member
    DebSozo wrote: »
    I do believe when people plateau it is the body trying to establish an stabilize a set point. When I break a plateau I have to maintain for a long time to establish the new set point.
    No, it's the body ADAPTING to energy balance (calorie intake and metabolism). A change in one or the other usually changes this "set point" you speak of.

    A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
    IDEA Fitness member
    Kickboxing Certified Instructor
    Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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  • ninerbuff
    ninerbuff Posts: 48,488 Member
    DebSozo wrote: »
    This article is VERY helpful in explaining about set points.
    http://www.obesityaction.org/educational-resources/resource-articles-2/weight-loss-surgery/body-weight-set-point-what-we-know-and-what-we-dont-know
    Lol, if you actually read the "article", it even states that "set point" is determined by how one eats. They eat more it's higher, they eat low, it's lower. Lol.

    BTW, do anorexics have "set points"? And if they do, what's your explanation for them for being under nourished?

    A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
    IDEA Fitness member
    Kickboxing Certified Instructor
    Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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  • ninerbuff
    ninerbuff Posts: 48,488 Member
    DebSozo wrote: »
    GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »
    DebSozo wrote: »
    hotel4dogs wrote: »
    Do others believe in "set points"? I have been reading a bit about them, and I think I have hit one. It seems that there are several weights that my body just likes, and it's harder to either lose or gain weight when I'm at a set point.
    I think it's what makes maintaining so hard, if you are not at a "set point".
    Here's some background information:

    http://www.bidmc.org/YourHealth/BIDMCInteractive/BreakThroughYourSetPoint/WeekOneTheScienceofSetPoint.aspx

    It appears that some people do not believe that the body forms them. But my body likes to settle in at certain points and will stay within a 4 pound span.

    Sure. It has nothing to do with your eating or exercise habits. Nothing at all.

    Right.

    Of course it does. I have repeatedly said that it works together. Some people seem to think that it is only about "habits".
    They are MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE. A "habit" doesn't rely on a "set point". Kinda like science doesn't rely on religion or faith.

    A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
    IDEA Fitness member
    Kickboxing Certified Instructor
    Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
    9285851.png
  • Christine_72
    Christine_72 Posts: 16,049 Member
    I was slim and at a good weight for the first 40 years of my life, didn't know what a calorie was and never had to diet. I packed on over 50lbs with my first pregnancy with a 6lb 10 little girl, which dropped off effortlessly within a few months. There was 2 years after i hit 40 that yes i started eating more and turned into a sloth to the tune of 30lbs gained.
    Wouldnt my set point be the weight my body remembered for all of those years before gaining weight? How can 2 years override 40? And why oh why do i now have to count every calorie and exercise my butt off to lose a few pounds, why is it so hard now and yet so simple back then?
  • lemurcat12
    lemurcat12 Posts: 30,886 Member
    edited November 2016
    DebSozo wrote: »
    I do believe when people plateau it is the body trying to establish an stabilize a set point. When I break a plateau I have to maintain for a long time to establish the new set point.

    This isn't really consistent with your suggestion that it takes 6-18 months to establish a set point.

    On the other hand, doing something for 6-18 months would tend to help establish a set of habits.
  • Christine_72
    Christine_72 Posts: 16,049 Member
    johunt615 wrote: »
    They push their plate away with food still on it (gasp) :).

    We had one of those :tongue: types over for dinner last night. She left 1/4 of the food on her plate and pushed it away. My first thought was Panic! Panic! She didn't like her meal. But no, she said she was full and that was that, and yes she is thin. And here i was on the opposite side of the table licking my plate clean :lol:

  • cerise_noir
    cerise_noir Posts: 5,468 Member
    edited November 2016
    nutmegoreo wrote: »
    DebSozo wrote: »
    There are autoregulations AND habits. Internal and external regulation. For the umpteenth time-- set points can be changed.

    "Settling Point" seems to be the new name for it to be met with less semantic controversy.

    I agree with Charlie about this being a head banging thread. My head is hurting. Haha
    :D

    I used to get a lot of headaches. Then I realized my tail was attached to my *babysloth* and stopped chasing it. :wink:

    http://giphy.com/gifs/chasing-11e62E8yxfzleg
  • LivingtheLeanDream
    LivingtheLeanDream Posts: 13,345 Member
    johunt615 wrote: »
    All of my thin friends who don't count a calorie...

    Choose lower calorie foods when going out to eat... - Salad w/oil & Vinegar, take the top bun off no fries or a few, a few bites of desert or share a meal with their husband or other like minded thin friend. They usually order steamed veggies as a side. Eat baked or grilled chicken not breaded. They push their plate away with food still on it (gasp) :).

    Talk about backing off eating for event, snug pants, or special occasion.

    Don't talk about an emotional eating event, boredom eating, binging etc. They look at other girlfriends as aliens when they talk about pms or stress eating.

    Only a few even exersice.

    Basically I'm saying they WATCH what they eat even though it appears as though they don't. They eat hamburgers but lower calories by taking a bun off or no fries. They eat pizza but they stop at 1 or 2 slices.

    The quantity of food is much lower regardless of what they eat then most of my overweight friends.

    They are in the habit of eating until satisfied and eating because they are actually hungry and not outside stresses.

    ETA - I have been friends with some of them for over 30 years. They are still thin. I don't believe in set points. I believe unconsciously and some consciously are in the habit of eating certain ways and they may eat maintenance one day, under one day and over one day (without counting a calorie) because they are in a certain habit of eating (described above).

    Loved reading this....because you described ME!! I obviously wasn't always this way, but I am now (4 yrs at maintenance) and it happened gradually without me even noticing.

    Thanks for this comment, it made me feel quite smug and happy lol :smiley:
  • GottaBurnEmAll
    GottaBurnEmAll Posts: 7,722 Member
    edited November 2016
    Christine_72 wrote: »
    I was slim and at a good weight for the first 40 years of my life, didn't know what a calorie was and never had to diet. I packed on over 50lbs with my first pregnancy with a 6lb 10 little girl, which dropped off effortlessly within a few months. There was 2 years after i hit 40 that yes i started eating more and turned into a sloth to the tune of 30lbs gained.
    Wouldnt my set point be the weight my body remembered for all of those years before gaining weight? How can 2 years override 40? And why oh why do i now have to count every calorie and exercise my butt off to lose a few pounds, why is it so hard now and yet so simple back then?

    Sarcopenia. We lose muscle mass as we age, and that slightly lowers our metabolic rates. We usually tend to become more sedentary and have less spontaneous movement. That lowers our TDEE. You're also not chasing around kids any more.

    Older people need to strength train, and they need to become more active to compensate for metabolic shortfalls.
  • GottaBurnEmAll
    GottaBurnEmAll Posts: 7,722 Member
    ninerbuff wrote: »
    DebSozo wrote: »
    ninerbuff wrote: »
    DebSozo wrote: »
    AnvilHead wrote: »
    DebSozo wrote: »
    GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »
    ninerbuff wrote: »
    And also, how would "set point" work with people who lost weight for 6 months, then gained back a significant amount. Is it their body wanting to be fat again? Or is it because they discontinued their habit of staying in control of calories?

    A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
    IDEA Fitness member
    Kickboxing Certified Instructor
    Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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    The thing that I've realized is that what DebSozo is arguing about is not a "set point", but rather about hunger/satiety signals regulating different weight levels.

    She believes that people can retrain their hunger and satiety signals to achieve different certain weights so that you don't have to consciously regulate them.

    Of course, if this logic played out and set point was a matter of hunger/satiety signals being in check and humming along smoothly leading to a desirable body weight ... why did she gain weight in the first place? How did her hunger/satiety signals get overridden?

    To be clear, the point I'm making in pointing that out is the flaw in her logic that relying on hunger/satiety signals (or as she keeps saying, "autoregulation") as some sort of set point ignores very real factors like aging, an obesogenic environment, stress, and other things I'm sure I can't think of right now. These outside influences often override the feedback systems our body has in place, and since that can be done, it argues clearly against the idea of anything being "set".

    Those overriding factors are what disrupt the maintenance set point. Stress, disease, injuries, and aging do have an impact.

    "Set point"

    vnp8naz25h9a.jpg

    Homeostasis-- http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/set-point

    The OP used the word. This is the topic. Lol.

    Here is a video that explains it better than I can:
    http://study.com/academy/lesson/what-is-homeostasis-definition-examples-quiz.html
    "Physiological by body control mechanisms"......................meaning eating and physical activity. Or CICO to be precise. It's NOT AN AUTOMATIC thing.

    A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
    IDEA Fitness member
    Kickboxing Certified Instructor
    Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
    9285851.png


    Are you saying you believe that your body cannot help you maintain at a certain steady weight for a long time?
    If you're relying on SATIETY as proof, then let me ask you: If a person ate 3 big bowls of spinach and felt full and the next day ate 3 tubs of buttered popcorn to get the same satiety, you don't see a difference in the calorie intake? And that those 3 tubs of buttered popcorn won't have them gain weight even though satiety is achieved?

    A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
    IDEA Fitness member
    Kickboxing Certified Instructor
    Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
    9285851.png

    I wish I could find that Wansink study to show that you could trick the satiety hormones into responding simply by telling people that something was supposed to make them feel full.

    It blows this whole argument out of the water.
  • Vailara
    Vailara Posts: 2,451 Member
    Christine_72 wrote: »
    I was slim and at a good weight for the first 40 years of my life, didn't know what a calorie was and never had to diet. I packed on over 50lbs with my first pregnancy with a 6lb 10 little girl, which dropped off effortlessly within a few months. There was 2 years after i hit 40 that yes i started eating more and turned into a sloth to the tune of 30lbs gained.
    Wouldnt my set point be the weight my body remembered for all of those years before gaining weight? How can 2 years override 40? And why oh why do i now have to count every calorie and exercise my butt off to lose a few pounds, why is it so hard now and yet so simple back then?

    Very similar experience for me! Including putting on a tonne of weight when I was pregnant and losing it all without dieting!

    I would say that's definitely a set point, no matter what people say.

    I'm curious about what caused my weight gain. Sarocpenia might fit as I do think my age was a factor, but it's odd that my body adapted to so many other changes (ilness, activity level, pregnancy and so on) but couldn't adapt to that. I also do strength/resistance training. I did have some weight fluctuation just before gaining properly - I had some stress and lost weight to a point that I felt underweight, a couple of times, and I've wondered if that somehow upset the balance.

    I can yet again say that the weight maintenance during the "naturally slim" years was nothing to do with habits. For most of the time I didn't think about how much I ate, certainly didn't count calories, happily ate high calorie foods if I wanted them. I also had very different habits over the years, different jobs, different relationships, different eating patterns, etc.
  • DebSozo
    DebSozo Posts: 2,578 Member
    edited November 2016
    GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »
    DebSozo wrote: »
    GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »
    DebSozo wrote: »
    hotel4dogs wrote: »
    Do others believe in "set points"? I have been reading a bit about them, and I think I have hit one. It seems that there are several weights that my body just likes, and it's harder to either lose or gain weight when I'm at a set point.
    I think it's what makes maintaining so hard, if you are not at a "set point".
    Here's some background information:

    http://www.bidmc.org/YourHealth/BIDMCInteractive/BreakThroughYourSetPoint/WeekOneTheScienceofSetPoint.aspx

    It appears that some people do not believe that the body forms them. But my body likes to settle in at certain points and will stay within a 4 pound span.

    Sure. It has nothing to do with your eating or exercise habits. Nothing at all.

    Right.

    Of course it does. I have repeatedly said that it works together. Some people seem to think that it is only about "habits".

    That's because it is. The body responds to the habits.

    You seem to derive comfort from this notion of your body being this...entity somewhat our of youf control, perhaps due to your issues in your own journey with weight loss.

    Everyone else's experience is not enough to sway you from your firmly held beliefs and force you to examine your own behaviors with an honest lens.

    There have been points where I have been tempted to comfort myself that I was at a sticking point with my weight. You and your buddy Gianfranco seem to think those of use arguing against you have never struggled with plateaus.

    Quite the contrary.

    I have been tempted, as I said, to comfort myself with some notion of set point, but I could never get past what I knew factually about energy balance, The Minnesota Starvation Experiment, and people like anorexics. So I always concluded that I had to be the problem instead of continuing to look for outside excuses for my plateaus. You know what? It was always something. I was slacking in training, or logging, or sneaking bites of food. It wasn't always conscious behavior on my part, but once I fixed it, I was over the weird point I swore my body was insisting it was stuck at.

    Maybe Deb, just maybe, that's where you're at. And I'm sorry. I remember your profile pictures. You're a lovely woman, but you are not at anything near a low body fat percentage where I'd believe a body would naturally settle that would not respond to a reasonably applied calorie deficit and some extra activity.

    Maybe, just maybe I am not "comforting" myself about set points. Perhaps I am lamenting that my set point has gotten higher over the years, and I am having a difficult time lowering it.

    I realize that my body no longer works with me as well to lose as it once did. So, yes, I must artificially use a kitchen scale and MFP to track calories and macros when I want to lose. Otherwise it is very likely I will gain back the 10 pounds I already lost battling the muffin top . I still need to lose another 10 pounds. It has been difficult with gaining and losing the same 4 pounds over and over.

    I do believe that weight training and upping my TDEE will help get the last 10 pounds off. I do think if I can get the weight off and keep it off within a very small set point maintenance weight window that my body will eventually adjust and work to keep the weight off. But I am having a difficult time with these last 10 pounds.
    :(

    GottaBurnEmAll I remember the private message i suspect you sent me accusing me of needing to lose more than 10 pounds. The previous picture you remember was my "before" weight with Sir Topham Hat. I put that up as a profile pic because I thought that it would be a good deterrent to my regain. I was overweight and at 25 BMI in that photo, have naturally chubby cheeks, and was covered with a jacket. You seem relentless to attack my credibility but I assure you that I am not lying.

    About a year after the Sir Topham photo, I lost 10 pounds I got into my current normal BMI which is 24.3. I admit I need to lose 10 more pounds to get into 23 BMI or so. I used to be 22 BMI years ago which looked lean on me because of higher muscle mass from strength training. I will be satisfied to maintain after losing 10 more pounds and hopefully establish a new and lower set point when I hit that goal. I'm going to give myself a year as I lose very slowly.

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