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May we talk about set points?
Replies
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GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »And also, how would "set point" work with people who lost weight for 6 months, then gained back a significant amount. Is it their body wanting to be fat again? Or is it because they discontinued their habit of staying in control of calories?
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
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Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
The thing that I've realized is that what DebSozo is arguing about is not a "set point", but rather about hunger/satiety signals regulating different weight levels.
She believes that people can retrain their hunger and satiety signals to achieve different certain weights so that you don't have to consciously regulate them.
Of course, if this logic played out and set point was a matter of hunger/satiety signals being in check and humming along smoothly leading to a desirable body weight ... why did she gain weight in the first place? How did her hunger/satiety signals get overridden?
To be clear, the point I'm making in pointing that out is the flaw in her logic that relying on hunger/satiety signals (or as she keeps saying, "autoregulation") as some sort of set point ignores very real factors like aging, an obesogenic environment, stress, and other things I'm sure I can't think of right now. These outside influences often override the feedback systems our body has in place, and since that can be done, it argues clearly against the idea of anything being "set".
Those overriding factors are what disrupt the maintenance set point. Stress, disease, injuries, and aging do have an impact.
"Set point"
Homeostasis-- http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/set-point
The OP used the word. This is the topic. Lol.
Here is a video that explains it better than I can:
http://study.com/academy/lesson/what-is-homeostasis-definition-examples-quiz.html
0 -
hotel4dogs wrote: »Do others believe in "set points"? I have been reading a bit about them, and I think I have hit one. It seems that there are several weights that my body just likes, and it's harder to either lose or gain weight when I'm at a set point.
I think it's what makes maintaining so hard, if you are not at a "set point".
Here's some background information:
http://www.bidmc.org/YourHealth/BIDMCInteractive/BreakThroughYourSetPoint/WeekOneTheScienceofSetPoint.aspx
It appears that some people do not believe that the body forms them. But my body likes to settle in at certain points and will stay within a 4 pound span.0 -
And also, how would "set point" work with people who lost weight for 6 months, then gained back a significant amount. Is it their body wanting to be fat again? Or is it because they discontinued their habit of staying in control of calories?
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Their body is trying to go back up to the previous higher set point. They would need to remain stable at the same weight for another 6 months or a year. Then the body will establish a new set point that it will help them maintain.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
1 -
And also, how would "set point" work with people who lost weight for 6 months, then gained back a significant amount. Is it their body wanting to be fat again? Or is it because they discontinued their habit of staying in control of calories?
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Their body is trying to go back up to the previous higher set point. They would need to remain stable at the same weight for another 6 months or a year. Then the body will establish a new set point that it will help them maintain.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
I don't pretend to understand obesity or how it deregulates the body's homeostasis.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19410672
This article below says he started at over 400 pounds, got down around 200 pounds, and as of the time of this news article he was 300 pounds:
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/05/02/health/biggest-loser-weight-loss.html0 -
hotel4dogs wrote: »Do others believe in "set points"? I have been reading a bit about them, and I think I have hit one. It seems that there are several weights that my body just likes, and it's harder to either lose or gain weight when I'm at a set point.
I think it's what makes maintaining so hard, if you are not at a "set point".
Here's some background information:
http://www.bidmc.org/YourHealth/BIDMCInteractive/BreakThroughYourSetPoint/WeekOneTheScienceofSetPoint.aspx
It appears that some people do not believe that the body forms them. But my body likes to settle in at certain points and will stay within a 4 pound span.
Probably, people who don't believe in the concept, simply haven't experienced it.
And guess what, high weight variability predicts weight gain:
http://m.ajcn.nutrition.org/content/102/5/995.long?view=long&pmid=263545350 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »And also, how would "set point" work with people who lost weight for 6 months, then gained back a significant amount. Is it their body wanting to be fat again? Or is it because they discontinued their habit of staying in control of calories?
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
The thing that I've realized is that what DebSozo is arguing about is not a "set point", but rather about hunger/satiety signals regulating different weight levels.
She believes that people can retrain their hunger and satiety signals to achieve different certain weights so that you don't have to consciously regulate them.
Of course, if this logic played out and set point was a matter of hunger/satiety signals being in check and humming along smoothly leading to a desirable body weight ... why did she gain weight in the first place? How did her hunger/satiety signals get overridden?
To be clear, the point I'm making in pointing that out is the flaw in her logic that relying on hunger/satiety signals (or as she keeps saying, "autoregulation") as some sort of set point ignores very real factors like aging, an obesogenic environment, stress, and other things I'm sure I can't think of right now. These outside influences often override the feedback systems our body has in place, and since that can be done, it argues clearly against the idea of anything being "set".
When the body has a strong propensity to stay at the same weight for long periods that is considered by some people to be their set point.It doesn't mean it can't be changed with effort and overriding. Your factors simply validate that the set point can go up or down due to extenuating circumstances.
This article suggests it can take up to 18 months to establish a new weight set point. http://nnc.fitness/homeostasis-brain-worst-enemy-weight-loss/
And even the articles you mention state that a HABITUAL change has to be made to attain this "set point" you speak of.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
6 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »And also, how would "set point" work with people who lost weight for 6 months, then gained back a significant amount. Is it their body wanting to be fat again? Or is it because they discontinued their habit of staying in control of calories?
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
The thing that I've realized is that what DebSozo is arguing about is not a "set point", but rather about hunger/satiety signals regulating different weight levels.
She believes that people can retrain their hunger and satiety signals to achieve different certain weights so that you don't have to consciously regulate them.
Of course, if this logic played out and set point was a matter of hunger/satiety signals being in check and humming along smoothly leading to a desirable body weight ... why did she gain weight in the first place? How did her hunger/satiety signals get overridden?
To be clear, the point I'm making in pointing that out is the flaw in her logic that relying on hunger/satiety signals (or as she keeps saying, "autoregulation") as some sort of set point ignores very real factors like aging, an obesogenic environment, stress, and other things I'm sure I can't think of right now. These outside influences often override the feedback systems our body has in place, and since that can be done, it argues clearly against the idea of anything being "set".
Those overriding factors are what disrupt the maintenance set point. Stress, disease, injuries, and aging do have an impact.
"Set point"
Homeostasis-- http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/set-point
The OP used the word. This is the topic. Lol.
Here is a video that explains it better than I can:
http://study.com/academy/lesson/what-is-homeostasis-definition-examples-quiz.html
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
4 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »And also, how would "set point" work with people who lost weight for 6 months, then gained back a significant amount. Is it their body wanting to be fat again? Or is it because they discontinued their habit of staying in control of calories?
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
The thing that I've realized is that what DebSozo is arguing about is not a "set point", but rather about hunger/satiety signals regulating different weight levels.
She believes that people can retrain their hunger and satiety signals to achieve different certain weights so that you don't have to consciously regulate them.
Of course, if this logic played out and set point was a matter of hunger/satiety signals being in check and humming along smoothly leading to a desirable body weight ... why did she gain weight in the first place? How did her hunger/satiety signals get overridden?
To be clear, the point I'm making in pointing that out is the flaw in her logic that relying on hunger/satiety signals (or as she keeps saying, "autoregulation") as some sort of set point ignores very real factors like aging, an obesogenic environment, stress, and other things I'm sure I can't think of right now. These outside influences often override the feedback systems our body has in place, and since that can be done, it argues clearly against the idea of anything being "set".
Those overriding factors are what disrupt the maintenance set point. Stress, disease, injuries, and aging do have an impact.
"Set point"
Homeostasis-- http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/set-point
The OP used the word. This is the topic. Lol.
Here is a video that explains it better than I can:
http://study.com/academy/lesson/what-is-homeostasis-definition-examples-quiz.html
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Are you saying you believe that your body cannot help you maintain at a certain steady weight for a long time?0 -
And also, how would "set point" work with people who lost weight for 6 months, then gained back a significant amount. Is it their body wanting to be fat again? Or is it because they discontinued their habit of staying in control of calories?
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Their body is trying to go back up to the previous higher set point. They would need to remain stable at the same weight for another 6 months or a year. Then the body will establish a new set point that it will help them maintain.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
I don't pretend to understand obesity or how it deregulates the body's homeostasis.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19410672
This article below says he started at over 400 pounds, got down around 200 pounds, and as of the time of this news article he was 300 pounds:
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/05/02/health/biggest-loser-weight-loss.html
So why do people regain weight? Because they go back the the HABITS that made them gain it in the first place. Again, not because of a "set point".
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
4 -
I do believe when people plateau it is the body trying to establish an stabilize a set point. When I break a plateau I have to maintain for a long time to establish the new set point.0
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NM0
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This thread now reminds me of a poem I once read.
Haiku are real fun
But sometimes do not make sense
Refrigerator12 -
Lol0
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GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »And also, how would "set point" work with people who lost weight for 6 months, then gained back a significant amount. Is it their body wanting to be fat again? Or is it because they discontinued their habit of staying in control of calories?
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
The thing that I've realized is that what DebSozo is arguing about is not a "set point", but rather about hunger/satiety signals regulating different weight levels.
She believes that people can retrain their hunger and satiety signals to achieve different certain weights so that you don't have to consciously regulate them.
Of course, if this logic played out and set point was a matter of hunger/satiety signals being in check and humming along smoothly leading to a desirable body weight ... why did she gain weight in the first place? How did her hunger/satiety signals get overridden?
To be clear, the point I'm making in pointing that out is the flaw in her logic that relying on hunger/satiety signals (or as she keeps saying, "autoregulation") as some sort of set point ignores very real factors like aging, an obesogenic environment, stress, and other things I'm sure I can't think of right now. These outside influences often override the feedback systems our body has in place, and since that can be done, it argues clearly against the idea of anything being "set".
Those overriding factors are what disrupt the maintenance set point. Stress, disease, injuries, and aging do have an impact.
You haven't established there is such a thing as a set point, though. You're arguing that natural hunger/satiety signals regulate such a thing, therefore, there is one. That's ludicrous to assert in defense of higher weights.3 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »And also, how would "set point" work with people who lost weight for 6 months, then gained back a significant amount. Is it their body wanting to be fat again? Or is it because they discontinued their habit of staying in control of calories?
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
The thing that I've realized is that what DebSozo is arguing about is not a "set point", but rather about hunger/satiety signals regulating different weight levels.
She believes that people can retrain their hunger and satiety signals to achieve different certain weights so that you don't have to consciously regulate them.
Of course, if this logic played out and set point was a matter of hunger/satiety signals being in check and humming along smoothly leading to a desirable body weight ... why did she gain weight in the first place? How did her hunger/satiety signals get overridden?
To be clear, the point I'm making in pointing that out is the flaw in her logic that relying on hunger/satiety signals (or as she keeps saying, "autoregulation") as some sort of set point ignores very real factors like aging, an obesogenic environment, stress, and other things I'm sure I can't think of right now. These outside influences often override the feedback systems our body has in place, and since that can be done, it argues clearly against the idea of anything being "set".
When the body has a strong propensity to stay at the same weight for long periods that is considered by some people to be their set point.
It doesn't mean it can't be changed with effort and overriding. Your factors simply validate that the set point can go up or down due to extenuating circumstances.
This article suggests it can take up to 18 months to establish a new weight set point. http://nnc.fitness/homeostasis-brain-worst-enemy-weight-loss/
What kind of half-kittened reference was that? You are really scraping the bottom of the barrel here.7 -
hotel4dogs wrote: »Do others believe in "set points"? I have been reading a bit about them, and I think I have hit one. It seems that there are several weights that my body just likes, and it's harder to either lose or gain weight when I'm at a set point.
I think it's what makes maintaining so hard, if you are not at a "set point".
Here's some background information:
http://www.bidmc.org/YourHealth/BIDMCInteractive/BreakThroughYourSetPoint/WeekOneTheScienceofSetPoint.aspx
It appears that some people do not believe that the body forms them. But my body likes to settle in at certain points and will stay within a 4 pound span.
Sure. It has nothing to do with your eating or exercise habits. Nothing at all.
Right.4 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »And also, how would "set point" work with people who lost weight for 6 months, then gained back a significant amount. Is it their body wanting to be fat again? Or is it because they discontinued their habit of staying in control of calories?
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
The thing that I've realized is that what DebSozo is arguing about is not a "set point", but rather about hunger/satiety signals regulating different weight levels.
She believes that people can retrain their hunger and satiety signals to achieve different certain weights so that you don't have to consciously regulate them.
Of course, if this logic played out and set point was a matter of hunger/satiety signals being in check and humming along smoothly leading to a desirable body weight ... why did she gain weight in the first place? How did her hunger/satiety signals get overridden?
To be clear, the point I'm making in pointing that out is the flaw in her logic that relying on hunger/satiety signals (or as she keeps saying, "autoregulation") as some sort of set point ignores very real factors like aging, an obesogenic environment, stress, and other things I'm sure I can't think of right now. These outside influences often override the feedback systems our body has in place, and since that can be done, it argues clearly against the idea of anything being "set".
When the body has a strong propensity to stay at the same weight for long periods that is considered by some people to be their set point.
It doesn't mean it can't be changed with effort and overriding. Your factors simply validate that the set point can go up or down due to extenuating circumstances.
This article suggests it can take up to 18 months to establish a new weight set point. http://nnc.fitness/homeostasis-brain-worst-enemy-weight-loss/
A website selling their services and supplements cannot be considered a valid source.
"At Northampton Nutrition Centre, we can work with you on how to overcome your own brain so that you are not fighting yourself as you begin your journey to a healthier you."5 -
I used to think my body had a set point...but that was me just fooling myself that I could eat more than I actually could...
I wondered was it my lot to stay at my supposed set point, but no, I ate at deficit and eventually got to where I wanted to be.5 -
A quick thought before I go for my run...
A while back, I was involved in a conversation on this forum, I forget the exact topic, but Yarwell posted a study conducted by Brian Wansink (and others, I think) involving different foods and having them feel "filling" -- or something to that point.
The thing I've always remembered about that study is that the participants were told they were eating these ... I think they were either drinks or jelly cubes ... that would either expand in some way or do something ... upon reaching the stomach and become more filling. Now, this was all done in a controlled study fashion of course. The people were given foods that did absolutely nothing, and reported feeling fuller. Not only that, they had hormonal responses that showed being satiated by the feeding based entirely on believing they'd be satiatied .
This. This is why I cannot buy the shaky argument for autoregulation=set point. Because it's based on unreliable shifting sand.5 -
This article is VERY helpful in explaining about set points.
http://www.obesityaction.org/educational-resources/resource-articles-2/weight-loss-surgery/body-weight-set-point-what-we-know-and-what-we-dont-know0 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »hotel4dogs wrote: »Do others believe in "set points"? I have been reading a bit about them, and I think I have hit one. It seems that there are several weights that my body just likes, and it's harder to either lose or gain weight when I'm at a set point.
I think it's what makes maintaining so hard, if you are not at a "set point".
Here's some background information:
http://www.bidmc.org/YourHealth/BIDMCInteractive/BreakThroughYourSetPoint/WeekOneTheScienceofSetPoint.aspx
It appears that some people do not believe that the body forms them. But my body likes to settle in at certain points and will stay within a 4 pound span.
Sure. It has nothing to do with your eating or exercise habits. Nothing at all.
Right.
Of course it does. I have repeatedly said that it works together. Some people seem to think that it is only about "habits".0 -
RunRutheeRun wrote: »I used to think my body had a set point...but that was me just fooling myself that I could eat more than I actually could...
I wondered was it my lot to stay at my supposed set point, but no, I ate at deficit and eventually got to where I wanted to be.
And hopefully are maintaining at a new and lower weight set point...0 -
RunRutheeRun wrote: »I used to think my body had a set point...but that was me just fooling myself that I could eat more than I actually could...
I wondered was it my lot to stay at my supposed set point, but no, I ate at deficit and eventually got to where I wanted to be.
And hopefully are maintaining at a new and lower weight set point...
yes @DebSozo I'm 7lbs under my goal weight and happy to stay there1 -
I do believe when people plateau it is the body trying to establish an stabilize a set point. When I break a plateau I have to maintain for a long time to establish the new set point.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
1 -
This article is VERY helpful in explaining about set points.
http://www.obesityaction.org/educational-resources/resource-articles-2/weight-loss-surgery/body-weight-set-point-what-we-know-and-what-we-dont-know
BTW, do anorexics have "set points"? And if they do, what's your explanation for them for being under nourished?
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
2 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »hotel4dogs wrote: »Do others believe in "set points"? I have been reading a bit about them, and I think I have hit one. It seems that there are several weights that my body just likes, and it's harder to either lose or gain weight when I'm at a set point.
I think it's what makes maintaining so hard, if you are not at a "set point".
Here's some background information:
http://www.bidmc.org/YourHealth/BIDMCInteractive/BreakThroughYourSetPoint/WeekOneTheScienceofSetPoint.aspx
It appears that some people do not believe that the body forms them. But my body likes to settle in at certain points and will stay within a 4 pound span.
Sure. It has nothing to do with your eating or exercise habits. Nothing at all.
Right.
Of course it does. I have repeatedly said that it works together. Some people seem to think that it is only about "habits".
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
3 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »And also, how would "set point" work with people who lost weight for 6 months, then gained back a significant amount. Is it their body wanting to be fat again? Or is it because they discontinued their habit of staying in control of calories?
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
The thing that I've realized is that what DebSozo is arguing about is not a "set point", but rather about hunger/satiety signals regulating different weight levels.
She believes that people can retrain their hunger and satiety signals to achieve different certain weights so that you don't have to consciously regulate them.
Of course, if this logic played out and set point was a matter of hunger/satiety signals being in check and humming along smoothly leading to a desirable body weight ... why did she gain weight in the first place? How did her hunger/satiety signals get overridden?
To be clear, the point I'm making in pointing that out is the flaw in her logic that relying on hunger/satiety signals (or as she keeps saying, "autoregulation") as some sort of set point ignores very real factors like aging, an obesogenic environment, stress, and other things I'm sure I can't think of right now. These outside influences often override the feedback systems our body has in place, and since that can be done, it argues clearly against the idea of anything being "set".
Those overriding factors are what disrupt the maintenance set point. Stress, disease, injuries, and aging do have an impact.
"Set point"
Homeostasis-- http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/set-point
The OP used the word. This is the topic. Lol.
Here is a video that explains it better than I can:
http://study.com/academy/lesson/what-is-homeostasis-definition-examples-quiz.html
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Are you saying you believe that your body cannot help you maintain at a certain steady weight for a long time?
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
5 -
RunRutheeRun wrote: »I used to think my body had a set point...but that was me just fooling myself that I could eat more than I actually could...
I wondered was it my lot to stay at my supposed set point, but no, I ate at deficit and eventually got to where I wanted to be.
And hopefully are maintaining at a new and lower weight set point...
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
5 -
I was slim and at a good weight for the first 40 years of my life, didn't know what a calorie was and never had to diet. I packed on over 50lbs with my first pregnancy with a 6lb 10 little girl, which dropped off effortlessly within a few months. There was 2 years after i hit 40 that yes i started eating more and turned into a sloth to the tune of 30lbs gained.
Wouldnt my set point be the weight my body remembered for all of those years before gaining weight? How can 2 years override 40? And why oh why do i now have to count every calorie and exercise my butt off to lose a few pounds, why is it so hard now and yet so simple back then?1 -
I do believe when people plateau it is the body trying to establish an stabilize a set point. When I break a plateau I have to maintain for a long time to establish the new set point.
This isn't really consistent with your suggestion that it takes 6-18 months to establish a set point.
On the other hand, doing something for 6-18 months would tend to help establish a set of habits.3
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