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May we talk about set points?

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Replies

  • DebSozo
    DebSozo Posts: 2,578 Member
    edited November 2016
    AnvilHead wrote: »
    DebSozo wrote: »
    ninerbuff wrote: »
    And also, how would "set point" work with people who lost weight for 6 months, then gained back a significant amount. Is it their body wanting to be fat again? Or is it because they discontinued their habit of staying in control of calories?

    A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
    IDEA Fitness member
    Kickboxing Certified Instructor
    Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

    9285851.png

    The thing that I've realized is that what DebSozo is arguing about is not a "set point", but rather about hunger/satiety signals regulating different weight levels.

    She believes that people can retrain their hunger and satiety signals to achieve different certain weights so that you don't have to consciously regulate them.

    Of course, if this logic played out and set point was a matter of hunger/satiety signals being in check and humming along smoothly leading to a desirable body weight ... why did she gain weight in the first place? How did her hunger/satiety signals get overridden?

    To be clear, the point I'm making in pointing that out is the flaw in her logic that relying on hunger/satiety signals (or as she keeps saying, "autoregulation") as some sort of set point ignores very real factors like aging, an obesogenic environment, stress, and other things I'm sure I can't think of right now. These outside influences often override the feedback systems our body has in place, and since that can be done, it argues clearly against the idea of anything being "set".

    Those overriding factors are what disrupt the maintenance set point. Stress, disease, injuries, and aging do have an impact.

    "Set point"

    vnp8naz25h9a.jpg

    Homeostasis-- http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/set-point

    The OP used the word. This is the topic. Lol.

    Here is a video that explains it better than I can:
    http://study.com/academy/lesson/what-is-homeostasis-definition-examples-quiz.html

  • DebSozo
    DebSozo Posts: 2,578 Member
    hotel4dogs wrote: »
    Do others believe in "set points"? I have been reading a bit about them, and I think I have hit one. It seems that there are several weights that my body just likes, and it's harder to either lose or gain weight when I'm at a set point.
    I think it's what makes maintaining so hard, if you are not at a "set point".
    Here's some background information:

    http://www.bidmc.org/YourHealth/BIDMCInteractive/BreakThroughYourSetPoint/WeekOneTheScienceofSetPoint.aspx

    It appears that some people do not believe that the body forms them. But my body likes to settle in at certain points and will stay within a 4 pound span.
  • ninerbuff
    ninerbuff Posts: 48,982 Member
    DebSozo wrote: »
    ninerbuff wrote: »
    And also, how would "set point" work with people who lost weight for 6 months, then gained back a significant amount. Is it their body wanting to be fat again? Or is it because they discontinued their habit of staying in control of calories?

    A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
    IDEA Fitness member
    Kickboxing Certified Instructor
    Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

    9285851.png

    Their body is trying to go back up to the previous higher set point. They would need to remain stable at the same weight for another 6 months or a year. Then the body will establish a new set point that it will help them maintain.
    Untrue. Go to Biggest Loser contestants who kept it off for a year or more and now are significantly heavier after that year is up. Ali Vincent went through this after almost 8 years of slowly creeping back up again because of surplusing.

    A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
    IDEA Fitness member
    Kickboxing Certified Instructor
    Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

    9285851.png

  • DebSozo
    DebSozo Posts: 2,578 Member
    edited November 2016
    ninerbuff wrote: »
    DebSozo wrote: »
    ninerbuff wrote: »
    And also, how would "set point" work with people who lost weight for 6 months, then gained back a significant amount. Is it their body wanting to be fat again? Or is it because they discontinued their habit of staying in control of calories?

    A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
    IDEA Fitness member
    Kickboxing Certified Instructor
    Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

    9285851.png

    Their body is trying to go back up to the previous higher set point. They would need to remain stable at the same weight for another 6 months or a year. Then the body will establish a new set point that it will help them maintain.
    Untrue. Go to Biggest Loser contestants who kept it off for a year or more and now are significantly heavier after that year is up. Ali Vincent went through this after almost 8 years of slowly creeping back up again because of surplusing.

    A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
    IDEA Fitness member
    Kickboxing Certified Instructor
    Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

    9285851.png


    I don't pretend to understand obesity or how it deregulates the body's homeostasis.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19410672

    This article below says he started at over 400 pounds, got down around 200 pounds, and as of the time of this news article he was 300 pounds:
    http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/05/02/health/biggest-loser-weight-loss.html
  • Gianfranco_R
    Gianfranco_R Posts: 1,297 Member
    DebSozo wrote: »
    hotel4dogs wrote: »
    Do others believe in "set points"? I have been reading a bit about them, and I think I have hit one. It seems that there are several weights that my body just likes, and it's harder to either lose or gain weight when I'm at a set point.
    I think it's what makes maintaining so hard, if you are not at a "set point".
    Here's some background information:

    http://www.bidmc.org/YourHealth/BIDMCInteractive/BreakThroughYourSetPoint/WeekOneTheScienceofSetPoint.aspx

    It appears that some people do not believe that the body forms them. But my body likes to settle in at certain points and will stay within a 4 pound span.

    Probably, people who don't believe in the concept, simply haven't experienced it.
    And guess what, high weight variability predicts weight gain:
    http://m.ajcn.nutrition.org/content/102/5/995.long?view=long&pmid=26354535
  • ninerbuff
    ninerbuff Posts: 48,982 Member
    DebSozo wrote: »
    AnvilHead wrote: »
    DebSozo wrote: »
    ninerbuff wrote: »
    And also, how would "set point" work with people who lost weight for 6 months, then gained back a significant amount. Is it their body wanting to be fat again? Or is it because they discontinued their habit of staying in control of calories?

    A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
    IDEA Fitness member
    Kickboxing Certified Instructor
    Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

    9285851.png

    The thing that I've realized is that what DebSozo is arguing about is not a "set point", but rather about hunger/satiety signals regulating different weight levels.

    She believes that people can retrain their hunger and satiety signals to achieve different certain weights so that you don't have to consciously regulate them.

    Of course, if this logic played out and set point was a matter of hunger/satiety signals being in check and humming along smoothly leading to a desirable body weight ... why did she gain weight in the first place? How did her hunger/satiety signals get overridden?

    To be clear, the point I'm making in pointing that out is the flaw in her logic that relying on hunger/satiety signals (or as she keeps saying, "autoregulation") as some sort of set point ignores very real factors like aging, an obesogenic environment, stress, and other things I'm sure I can't think of right now. These outside influences often override the feedback systems our body has in place, and since that can be done, it argues clearly against the idea of anything being "set".

    Those overriding factors are what disrupt the maintenance set point. Stress, disease, injuries, and aging do have an impact.

    "Set point"

    vnp8naz25h9a.jpg

    Homeostasis-- http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/set-point

    The OP used the word. This is the topic. Lol.

    Here is a video that explains it better than I can:
    http://study.com/academy/lesson/what-is-homeostasis-definition-examples-quiz.html
    "Physiological by body control mechanisms"......................meaning eating and physical activity. Or CICO to be precise. It's NOT AN AUTOMATIC thing.

    A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
    IDEA Fitness member
    Kickboxing Certified Instructor
    Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

    9285851.png

  • DebSozo
    DebSozo Posts: 2,578 Member
    ninerbuff wrote: »
    DebSozo wrote: »
    AnvilHead wrote: »
    DebSozo wrote: »
    ninerbuff wrote: »
    And also, how would "set point" work with people who lost weight for 6 months, then gained back a significant amount. Is it their body wanting to be fat again? Or is it because they discontinued their habit of staying in control of calories?

    A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
    IDEA Fitness member
    Kickboxing Certified Instructor
    Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

    9285851.png

    The thing that I've realized is that what DebSozo is arguing about is not a "set point", but rather about hunger/satiety signals regulating different weight levels.

    She believes that people can retrain their hunger and satiety signals to achieve different certain weights so that you don't have to consciously regulate them.

    Of course, if this logic played out and set point was a matter of hunger/satiety signals being in check and humming along smoothly leading to a desirable body weight ... why did she gain weight in the first place? How did her hunger/satiety signals get overridden?

    To be clear, the point I'm making in pointing that out is the flaw in her logic that relying on hunger/satiety signals (or as she keeps saying, "autoregulation") as some sort of set point ignores very real factors like aging, an obesogenic environment, stress, and other things I'm sure I can't think of right now. These outside influences often override the feedback systems our body has in place, and since that can be done, it argues clearly against the idea of anything being "set".

    Those overriding factors are what disrupt the maintenance set point. Stress, disease, injuries, and aging do have an impact.

    "Set point"

    vnp8naz25h9a.jpg

    Homeostasis-- http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/set-point

    The OP used the word. This is the topic. Lol.

    Here is a video that explains it better than I can:
    http://study.com/academy/lesson/what-is-homeostasis-definition-examples-quiz.html
    "Physiological by body control mechanisms"......................meaning eating and physical activity. Or CICO to be precise. It's NOT AN AUTOMATIC thing.

    A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
    IDEA Fitness member
    Kickboxing Certified Instructor
    Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

    9285851.png


    Are you saying you believe that your body cannot help you maintain at a certain steady weight for a long time?
  • ninerbuff
    ninerbuff Posts: 48,982 Member
    DebSozo wrote: »
    ninerbuff wrote: »
    DebSozo wrote: »
    ninerbuff wrote: »
    And also, how would "set point" work with people who lost weight for 6 months, then gained back a significant amount. Is it their body wanting to be fat again? Or is it because they discontinued their habit of staying in control of calories?

    A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
    IDEA Fitness member
    Kickboxing Certified Instructor
    Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

    9285851.png

    Their body is trying to go back up to the previous higher set point. They would need to remain stable at the same weight for another 6 months or a year. Then the body will establish a new set point that it will help them maintain.
    Untrue. Go to Biggest Loser contestants who kept it off for a year or more and now are significantly heavier after that year is up. Ali Vincent went through this after almost 8 years of slowly creeping back up again because of surplusing.

    A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
    IDEA Fitness member
    Kickboxing Certified Instructor
    Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

    9285851.png


    I don't pretend to understand obesity or how it deregulates the body's homeostasis.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19410672

    This article below says he started at over 400 pounds, got down around 200 pounds, and as of the time of this news article he was 300 pounds:
    http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/05/02/health/biggest-loser-weight-loss.html
    Obesity issue by far and wide are caused mainly by......................over consumption. Whether that trigger is from emotional eating, boredom eating, eating just to be happy, etc., it's a HABITUAL issue. It's changed by learning how to habitually eat less than they previously were. If the habitual behavior is continued, then the weight keeps coming down till they reach a goal they are happy with. At that point a calorie limit is set to maintain. If they keep eating less, they'll keep losing weight. If they eat more than they need, they will gain weight. There is no "set point". Their weight is DICTATED by CICO.
    So why do people regain weight? Because they go back the the HABITS that made them gain it in the first place. Again, not because of a "set point".

    A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
    IDEA Fitness member
    Kickboxing Certified Instructor
    Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

    9285851.png

  • DebSozo
    DebSozo Posts: 2,578 Member
    edited November 2016
    I do believe when people plateau it is the body trying to establish an stabilize a set point. When I break a plateau I have to maintain for a long time to establish the new set point.
  • DebSozo
    DebSozo Posts: 2,578 Member
    edited November 2016
    NM
  • DebSozo
    DebSozo Posts: 2,578 Member
    edited November 2016
    Lol
  • GottaBurnEmAll
    GottaBurnEmAll Posts: 7,722 Member
    DebSozo wrote: »
    ninerbuff wrote: »
    And also, how would "set point" work with people who lost weight for 6 months, then gained back a significant amount. Is it their body wanting to be fat again? Or is it because they discontinued their habit of staying in control of calories?

    A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
    IDEA Fitness member
    Kickboxing Certified Instructor
    Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

    9285851.png

    The thing that I've realized is that what DebSozo is arguing about is not a "set point", but rather about hunger/satiety signals regulating different weight levels.

    She believes that people can retrain their hunger and satiety signals to achieve different certain weights so that you don't have to consciously regulate them.

    Of course, if this logic played out and set point was a matter of hunger/satiety signals being in check and humming along smoothly leading to a desirable body weight ... why did she gain weight in the first place? How did her hunger/satiety signals get overridden?

    To be clear, the point I'm making in pointing that out is the flaw in her logic that relying on hunger/satiety signals (or as she keeps saying, "autoregulation") as some sort of set point ignores very real factors like aging, an obesogenic environment, stress, and other things I'm sure I can't think of right now. These outside influences often override the feedback systems our body has in place, and since that can be done, it argues clearly against the idea of anything being "set".

    Those overriding factors are what disrupt the maintenance set point. Stress, disease, injuries, and aging do have an impact.

    You haven't established there is such a thing as a set point, though. You're arguing that natural hunger/satiety signals regulate such a thing, therefore, there is one. That's ludicrous to assert in defense of higher weights.
  • GottaBurnEmAll
    GottaBurnEmAll Posts: 7,722 Member
    DebSozo wrote: »
    hotel4dogs wrote: »
    Do others believe in "set points"? I have been reading a bit about them, and I think I have hit one. It seems that there are several weights that my body just likes, and it's harder to either lose or gain weight when I'm at a set point.
    I think it's what makes maintaining so hard, if you are not at a "set point".
    Here's some background information:

    http://www.bidmc.org/YourHealth/BIDMCInteractive/BreakThroughYourSetPoint/WeekOneTheScienceofSetPoint.aspx

    It appears that some people do not believe that the body forms them. But my body likes to settle in at certain points and will stay within a 4 pound span.

    Sure. It has nothing to do with your eating or exercise habits. Nothing at all.

    Right.
  • DebSozo
    DebSozo Posts: 2,578 Member
    DebSozo wrote: »
    hotel4dogs wrote: »
    Do others believe in "set points"? I have been reading a bit about them, and I think I have hit one. It seems that there are several weights that my body just likes, and it's harder to either lose or gain weight when I'm at a set point.
    I think it's what makes maintaining so hard, if you are not at a "set point".
    Here's some background information:

    http://www.bidmc.org/YourHealth/BIDMCInteractive/BreakThroughYourSetPoint/WeekOneTheScienceofSetPoint.aspx

    It appears that some people do not believe that the body forms them. But my body likes to settle in at certain points and will stay within a 4 pound span.

    Sure. It has nothing to do with your eating or exercise habits. Nothing at all.

    Right.

    Of course it does. I have repeatedly said that it works together. Some people seem to think that it is only about "habits".
  • DebSozo
    DebSozo Posts: 2,578 Member
    I used to think my body had a set point...but that was me just fooling myself that I could eat more than I actually could...
    I wondered was it my lot to stay at my supposed set point, but no, I ate at deficit and eventually got to where I wanted to be.

    And hopefully are maintaining at a new and lower weight set point...
  • LivingtheLeanDream
    LivingtheLeanDream Posts: 13,342 Member
    DebSozo wrote: »
    I used to think my body had a set point...but that was me just fooling myself that I could eat more than I actually could...
    I wondered was it my lot to stay at my supposed set point, but no, I ate at deficit and eventually got to where I wanted to be.

    And hopefully are maintaining at a new and lower weight set point...

    yes @DebSozo I'm 7lbs under my goal weight and happy to stay there :)
  • ninerbuff
    ninerbuff Posts: 48,982 Member
    DebSozo wrote: »
    I do believe when people plateau it is the body trying to establish an stabilize a set point. When I break a plateau I have to maintain for a long time to establish the new set point.
    No, it's the body ADAPTING to energy balance (calorie intake and metabolism). A change in one or the other usually changes this "set point" you speak of.

    A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
    IDEA Fitness member
    Kickboxing Certified Instructor
    Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

    9285851.png



  • ninerbuff
    ninerbuff Posts: 48,982 Member
    DebSozo wrote: »
    Lol, if you actually read the "article", it even states that "set point" is determined by how one eats. They eat more it's higher, they eat low, it's lower. Lol.

    BTW, do anorexics have "set points"? And if they do, what's your explanation for them for being under nourished?

    A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
    IDEA Fitness member
    Kickboxing Certified Instructor
    Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

    9285851.png

  • ninerbuff
    ninerbuff Posts: 48,982 Member
    DebSozo wrote: »
    DebSozo wrote: »
    hotel4dogs wrote: »
    Do others believe in "set points"? I have been reading a bit about them, and I think I have hit one. It seems that there are several weights that my body just likes, and it's harder to either lose or gain weight when I'm at a set point.
    I think it's what makes maintaining so hard, if you are not at a "set point".
    Here's some background information:

    http://www.bidmc.org/YourHealth/BIDMCInteractive/BreakThroughYourSetPoint/WeekOneTheScienceofSetPoint.aspx

    It appears that some people do not believe that the body forms them. But my body likes to settle in at certain points and will stay within a 4 pound span.

    Sure. It has nothing to do with your eating or exercise habits. Nothing at all.

    Right.

    Of course it does. I have repeatedly said that it works together. Some people seem to think that it is only about "habits".
    They are MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE. A "habit" doesn't rely on a "set point". Kinda like science doesn't rely on religion or faith.

    A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
    IDEA Fitness member
    Kickboxing Certified Instructor
    Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

    9285851.png
  • Christine_72
    Christine_72 Posts: 16,049 Member
    I was slim and at a good weight for the first 40 years of my life, didn't know what a calorie was and never had to diet. I packed on over 50lbs with my first pregnancy with a 6lb 10 little girl, which dropped off effortlessly within a few months. There was 2 years after i hit 40 that yes i started eating more and turned into a sloth to the tune of 30lbs gained.
    Wouldnt my set point be the weight my body remembered for all of those years before gaining weight? How can 2 years override 40? And why oh why do i now have to count every calorie and exercise my butt off to lose a few pounds, why is it so hard now and yet so simple back then?
  • lemurcat12
    lemurcat12 Posts: 30,886 Member
    edited November 2016
    DebSozo wrote: »
    I do believe when people plateau it is the body trying to establish an stabilize a set point. When I break a plateau I have to maintain for a long time to establish the new set point.

    This isn't really consistent with your suggestion that it takes 6-18 months to establish a set point.

    On the other hand, doing something for 6-18 months would tend to help establish a set of habits.