Personal trainer says no carbs til dinner

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Replies

  • T1DCarnivoreRunner
    T1DCarnivoreRunner Posts: 11,502 Member
    psuLemon wrote: »
    psuLemon wrote: »
    SideSteel wrote: »
    Thing is, you can question the reading comprehension of one, maybe two people but a bunch of us are confused as to what the point being is (and the point of that point). I don't think we're all wilfully combative for the sake of arguing so that would indicate the issue being elsewhere..........

    Yes, there is another issue: It is a societal issue where "burn fat" is often misunderstood to mean "burn only body fat." This is seen in advertisements often where you see "Fat Burner" or "Burn Fat" with the expectation that target consumers will make the same misunderstanding. They often do. Just because a lot of people misunderstand "Burn Fat" to mean "Burn Body Fat" doesn't mean "Burn Body Fat" was the proper understanding. The difference between those advertisements and me is that the companies making such ads profit from the common misunderstanding.

    I think the bigger issue is that you're using "burn" to mean something other than "lose" when you say that you burn both dietary and body-fat faster being fat adapted.

    That is the same issue, with the exception of determining what meaning of "burn" is correct.

    Since I can see the issue is related to understanding of the word "burn" and that many here seem to think only body fat can be "burned," here is some additional clarification that should help everyone understand: Everywhere that I've written "burn" (except where quoted from others) can be replaced with "use" AND "fat" does not mean "body fat" nor "only body fat" except when, and only when specified as "body fat." In cases specified as both "body fat" and "dietary fat" (or any variations of that phrase where the words "body" and "dietary" are both included as adjectives of "fat," those adjectives must both remain intact in order to preserve meaning.

    1: No one really questions that fat oxidation increases with increase in fat consumption. That is why no one mentioned it. 2: The fact that you said that you burn all fat, including body fat (which would suggest that eating low to no carbs means you can decrease fat mass quicker) is where everyone had an issue. What you didn't do, at least in my opinion, is also mention that a diet higher in fat consumption, leads to greater storage of dietary fat.

    There is no doubt that if you eat greater amounts of fat and less carbs, that fat oxidation increases and carbohydrate oxidation decrease. The opposite is true as well. More carbs = greater CHO oxidation, and less fat oxidation. What is really means... is nothing. It literally does not matter which energy source you chose. It's person choice based on goals. You increase fat oxidation doesn't mean anything in the grand scheme of things. It just means that a greater amount of energy is coming from stored fats.

    And theoretically, there is an unlimited ability to use fat for energy, but it also means there is an unlimited potential to store it. And you can make an argument that that means fat can be used as the primary fuel and is beneficial to elite athletes, but I would make the argument that if you look at almost every single elite athlete, it's just not as beneficial as carbs. The few exceptions or extreme still can't justify the benefit.

    In the end, net energy balance will dictate fat mass loss and/or gain.

    1: I did mention it, and I thought nobody would question that either. And yet here we are...
    2: I clearly stated that using fat does not necessarily mean losing body fat.

    You should probably go back to several of your post and look at how often you said all fats, including body fat. That would suggest that you burn body fat at higher rates, resulting in much greater fat loss (that is literally the inference). If you don't understand how that can come off, then it's a misunderstand on your part. Not everyone else in this thread.

    I've tried to clarify that several times, yet no matter how many different ways I try to explain it, people continue to misunderstand. Do you actually understand what I'm saying? If yes, how would you phrase it so that other users understand?
  • nvmomketo
    nvmomketo Posts: 12,019 Member
    nvmomketo wrote: »
    Serious question here... how would one know that they even burn body fat faster than most? Is there a truly reliable method of testing this?

    The FASTER study looked into it for elite endurance athletes. Those who elite athletes who were fat adapted burned an astonishing amount of fat.
    http://www.vespapower.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/Volek-Metabolism-FASTER-2015-Final.pdf

    It sort of makes sense. We carry around tens of thousands of calories of fat to use and only a couple thousand calories of glycogen. Fat adapted individuals will tap into those fat stores faster and easier than those who eat high or moderate carbs. Those who use carb timing or back loading probably won't be fat adapted, I would imagine. And those of us who are fat adapted and not exercising will not reap the same benefits as these elite athetes either.

    Not just elite, but ultra endurance. We're talking people who do up to 100 mile races (if you can call that a race) here. Outside of those very specific circumstances, i.e. if higher intensity is required, well...
    http://www.mysportscience.com/single-post/2016/12/01/Ketogenic-diets-for-athletes

    I did not read all of that blog. I was just backing up someone's point that if one is fat adapted (been keto for over a month or so) then they will burn fat at a higher rate than other people, especially during exercise (in elite endurance athletes). I never said it was best for performance in all athletics, although I can't think a single other study that looks at fat adapted athletes in other sports. I doubt there are any. Even the ones mentioned in that blog you linked were just for 4-7 weeks, and some were just LCHF and others would be during adaptation stage, and so not really relevant.

    psuLemon wrote: »
    nvmomketo wrote: »
    Serious question here... how would one know that they even burn body fat faster than most? Is there a truly reliable method of testing this?

    The FASTER study looked into it for elite endurance athletes. Those who elite athletes who were fat adapted burned an astonishing amount of fat.
    http://www.vespapower.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/Volek-Metabolism-FASTER-2015-Final.pdf

    It sort of makes sense. We carry around tens of thousands of calories of fat to use and only a couple thousand calories of glycogen. Fat adapted individuals will tap into those fat stores faster and easier than those who eat high or moderate carbs. Those who use carb timing or back loading probably won't be fat adapted, I would imagine. And those of us who are fat adapted and not exercising will not reap the same benefits as these elite athetes either.

    Whats also being lost is that those who eat more fat store more fat. Body fat % or fat mass will not be accelerated when compared to two isocaloric diets where protein is constant.

    True. Eat more fat, burn more dietary fat and less body fat. Eat too much fat, burn only dietary fat and store some body fat.

    Although I lose fat at a faster rate than expected when I eat ketogenic. Slightly accelerated in my case but it could be due to health issues being addressed (IR and autoimmunity) as well as reduced appetite. The best advantages to LCHF diets I've seen are transient 100kcal advantage or up to a couple hundred kcal.

    But I'm off topic. OP is not interested in keto, just wondering about delaying carb intake over a 24 hour window. Most low carb discussions will be relevant here.
  • T1DCarnivoreRunner
    T1DCarnivoreRunner Posts: 11,502 Member
    WinoGelato wrote: »
    psuLemon wrote: »
    psuLemon wrote: »
    SideSteel wrote: »
    Thing is, you can question the reading comprehension of one, maybe two people but a bunch of us are confused as to what the point being is (and the point of that point). I don't think we're all wilfully combative for the sake of arguing so that would indicate the issue being elsewhere..........

    Yes, there is another issue: It is a societal issue where "burn fat" is often misunderstood to mean "burn only body fat." This is seen in advertisements often where you see "Fat Burner" or "Burn Fat" with the expectation that target consumers will make the same misunderstanding. They often do. Just because a lot of people misunderstand "Burn Fat" to mean "Burn Body Fat" doesn't mean "Burn Body Fat" was the proper understanding. The difference between those advertisements and me is that the companies making such ads profit from the common misunderstanding.

    I think the bigger issue is that you're using "burn" to mean something other than "lose" when you say that you burn both dietary and body-fat faster being fat adapted.

    That is the same issue, with the exception of determining what meaning of "burn" is correct.

    Since I can see the issue is related to understanding of the word "burn" and that many here seem to think only body fat can be "burned," here is some additional clarification that should help everyone understand: Everywhere that I've written "burn" (except where quoted from others) can be replaced with "use" AND "fat" does not mean "body fat" nor "only body fat" except when, and only when specified as "body fat." In cases specified as both "body fat" and "dietary fat" (or any variations of that phrase where the words "body" and "dietary" are both included as adjectives of "fat," those adjectives must both remain intact in order to preserve meaning.

    1: No one really questions that fat oxidation increases with increase in fat consumption. That is why no one mentioned it. 2: The fact that you said that you burn all fat, including body fat (which would suggest that eating low to no carbs means you can decrease fat mass quicker) is where everyone had an issue. What you didn't do, at least in my opinion, is also mention that a diet higher in fat consumption, leads to greater storage of dietary fat.

    There is no doubt that if you eat greater amounts of fat and less carbs, that fat oxidation increases and carbohydrate oxidation decrease. The opposite is true as well. More carbs = greater CHO oxidation, and less fat oxidation. What is really means... is nothing. It literally does not matter which energy source you chose. It's person choice based on goals. You increase fat oxidation doesn't mean anything in the grand scheme of things. It just means that a greater amount of energy is coming from stored fats.

    And theoretically, there is an unlimited ability to use fat for energy, but it also means there is an unlimited potential to store it. And you can make an argument that that means fat can be used as the primary fuel and is beneficial to elite athletes, but I would make the argument that if you look at almost every single elite athlete, it's just not as beneficial as carbs. The few exceptions or extreme still can't justify the benefit.

    In the end, net energy balance will dictate fat mass loss and/or gain.

    1: I did mention it, and I thought nobody would question that either. And yet here we are...
    2: I clearly stated that using fat does not necessarily mean losing body fat.

    You should probably go back to several of your post and look at how often you said all fats, including body fat. That would suggest that you burn body fat at higher rates, resulting in much greater fat loss (that is literally the inference). If you don't understand how that can come off, then it's a misunderstand on your part. Not everyone else in this thread.

    I've tried to clarify that several times, yet no matter how many different ways I try to explain it, people continue to misunderstand. Do you actually understand what I'm saying? If yes, how would you phrase it so that other users understand?

    I think the bigger question is, why do you think people need to understand? You seem to be belaboring a point that is not relevant to the OP, or really, to anyone. So why is it so crucial to you that people get your point? It has derailed this thread for pages upon pages, probably scared off the OP, and frustrated not only you but everyone trying to argue with you as well as those reading along. This isn't the first time this has happened on these boards so I'm genuinely curious, when these conversations devolve into the pedantic semantic arguments that so often seem to happen, what is your end goal with this?

    My point is relevant to the OP, as I've thoroughly explained.

    It seems like a lot of people want to argue with me despite that they actually agree (and don't realize it). Others inability to understand is what has made that point repeated in different ways repeatedly. If the argument is: "Everyone can't understand because you didn't say it right." Then my question is: How should I have said it so that everyone does understand? That's useful because the lack of understanding is what has caused several users to argue, despite that they seem to agree with the core point.
  • psuLemon
    psuLemon Posts: 38,427 MFP Moderator
    WinoGelato wrote: »
    psuLemon wrote: »
    psuLemon wrote: »
    SideSteel wrote: »
    Thing is, you can question the reading comprehension of one, maybe two people but a bunch of us are confused as to what the point being is (and the point of that point). I don't think we're all wilfully combative for the sake of arguing so that would indicate the issue being elsewhere..........

    Yes, there is another issue: It is a societal issue where "burn fat" is often misunderstood to mean "burn only body fat." This is seen in advertisements often where you see "Fat Burner" or "Burn Fat" with the expectation that target consumers will make the same misunderstanding. They often do. Just because a lot of people misunderstand "Burn Fat" to mean "Burn Body Fat" doesn't mean "Burn Body Fat" was the proper understanding. The difference between those advertisements and me is that the companies making such ads profit from the common misunderstanding.

    I think the bigger issue is that you're using "burn" to mean something other than "lose" when you say that you burn both dietary and body-fat faster being fat adapted.

    That is the same issue, with the exception of determining what meaning of "burn" is correct.

    Since I can see the issue is related to understanding of the word "burn" and that many here seem to think only body fat can be "burned," here is some additional clarification that should help everyone understand: Everywhere that I've written "burn" (except where quoted from others) can be replaced with "use" AND "fat" does not mean "body fat" nor "only body fat" except when, and only when specified as "body fat." In cases specified as both "body fat" and "dietary fat" (or any variations of that phrase where the words "body" and "dietary" are both included as adjectives of "fat," those adjectives must both remain intact in order to preserve meaning.

    1: No one really questions that fat oxidation increases with increase in fat consumption. That is why no one mentioned it. 2: The fact that you said that you burn all fat, including body fat (which would suggest that eating low to no carbs means you can decrease fat mass quicker) is where everyone had an issue. What you didn't do, at least in my opinion, is also mention that a diet higher in fat consumption, leads to greater storage of dietary fat.

    There is no doubt that if you eat greater amounts of fat and less carbs, that fat oxidation increases and carbohydrate oxidation decrease. The opposite is true as well. More carbs = greater CHO oxidation, and less fat oxidation. What is really means... is nothing. It literally does not matter which energy source you chose. It's person choice based on goals. You increase fat oxidation doesn't mean anything in the grand scheme of things. It just means that a greater amount of energy is coming from stored fats.

    And theoretically, there is an unlimited ability to use fat for energy, but it also means there is an unlimited potential to store it. And you can make an argument that that means fat can be used as the primary fuel and is beneficial to elite athletes, but I would make the argument that if you look at almost every single elite athlete, it's just not as beneficial as carbs. The few exceptions or extreme still can't justify the benefit.

    In the end, net energy balance will dictate fat mass loss and/or gain.

    1: I did mention it, and I thought nobody would question that either. And yet here we are...
    2: I clearly stated that using fat does not necessarily mean losing body fat.

    You should probably go back to several of your post and look at how often you said all fats, including body fat. That would suggest that you burn body fat at higher rates, resulting in much greater fat loss (that is literally the inference). If you don't understand how that can come off, then it's a misunderstand on your part. Not everyone else in this thread.

    I've tried to clarify that several times, yet no matter how many different ways I try to explain it, people continue to misunderstand. Do you actually understand what I'm saying? If yes, how would you phrase it so that other users understand?

    I think the bigger question is, why do you think people need to understand? You seem to be belaboring a point that is not relevant to the OP, or really, to anyone. So why is it so crucial to you that people get your point? It has derailed this thread for pages upon pages, probably scared off the OP, and frustrated not only you but everyone trying to argue with you as well as those reading along. This isn't the first time this has happened on these boards so I'm genuinely curious, when these conversations devolve into the pedantic semantic arguments that so often seem to happen, what is your end goal with this?

    My point is relevant to the OP, as I've thoroughly explained.

    It seems like a lot of people want to argue with me despite that they actually agree (and don't realize it). Others inability to understand is what has made that point repeated in different ways repeatedly. If the argument is: "Everyone can't understand because you didn't say it right." Then my question is: How should I have said it so that everyone does understand? That's useful because the lack of understanding is what has caused several users to argue, despite that they seem to agree with the core point.

    I think you are failing to see the whole picture. Calories and protein being equal, there is NO difference in fat loss regardless of when you consume your nutrients. And even if we didn't look at timing and looked at total consumption, it still would be meaningless. Whether you have a preferred source of fat or carbs, is doesn't matter in regards to fat loss. Only energy balance matters. There is no metabolic advantage to any of these diets.

    In the context of the OP, it doesn't matter when she eats carbs. And I suspect her trainer is working off anecdotal evidence which has help those not tracking calories, to reduce calories.
  • nutmegoreo
    nutmegoreo Posts: 15,532 Member
    edited December 2016
    Russellb97 wrote: »
    About 5 years ago I flipped my daily diet upside down and ate the majority of my calories and carbohydrates in the evening. Before that time I had lost 100lbs and had kept it off for 7 years but I was struggling a bit because I was still believing the myths of eating 6 small meals and eating less at night.
    Both of those myths go against how I like to eat.
    I've always been more hungry at night and also prefer a few large meals vs smaller and more frequent eating.
    So even though it went against everything I believed to be true I made the switch.

    This leap of faith was a tremendous blessing to me. Since then I never struggle and I've lost even more weight.

    Thr truth is, as others have said, it doesn't matter how many meals you have or when you have them, so eat the way you prefer to eat and focus on your daily calories goal. This journey is so much easier when you don't have to fight against yourself.

    Exactly. One of the greatest factors in dietary success is whether or not you will be able to stick with it. Macros and timing is irrelevant with regards to weight loss except under specific circumstances, such as health conditions and elite athletes.

    Wow, that you stuck to a way of eating that didn't fit your preferences for so long! So many people would have given up.

    ETA: I shouldn't say macros are irrelevant, appropriate levels of proteins and fats are necessary for proper body functioning and there is satiety issues which are driven, in part by personal preference.
This discussion has been closed.