Welcome to Debate Club! Please be aware that this is a space for respectful debate, and that your ideas will be challenged here. Please remember to critique the argument, not the author.

The complexity of weight loss

Options
24567

Replies

  • Gallowmere1984
    Gallowmere1984 Posts: 6,626 Member
    Options
    My second response addressed this. I am not talking about legitimate safety hazards. I am talking about things so markedly trivial and superficial, that the only way a person could actually injure or over exert themselves on it, is if they weren't long for this world to begin with.
  • SingingSingleTracker
    SingingSingleTracker Posts: 1,866 Member
    Options
    jgnatca wrote: »
    Former fatty here. My life was never easy, before or since. In my city entrances and public spaces were modified on the advice of a vocal advocacy group arguing for better public access for those with limited mobility. Guess what? We have all benefitted.

    In the past few months two citizens have died in public cross walks in our city by left turning buses. One was a senior citizen active in local. charities and the second a thirteen year old girl. These sorts of errors in public safety should wake us up to make changes to our environment.

    I changed kitten to the appropriate word so I could read the article (gee, nice Christmas morning read...!).

    Not to deter the thread that seems to have morphed into talking about tearing up pavement, safety hazards, handicap access and what not, but - getting back to the originally linked article.

    I just wanted to throw an article in the discussion that was written with what I believe to be is in full support for the nuts and bolts of ELMM/CICO side of the equation. It comes via a brutally honest blog that somebody linked me to here on MFP a few years ago which really hit home for me. I only offer it up to supplement the discussion of the complexity of weight loss.

    Here is the blog article: http://www.acaloriecounter.com/blog/why-am-i-not-losing-weight/

    When I first read that blog article, it snapped me immediately out of having any toes that I still had dipped into the River DeNial. It adjusted my thought process, and removed any forms of hand holding required. And it was very successful allowing me to reach my goals. That being said, it doesn't mean I do not accept some of what is being said in the "ELMM" is BS blog post.

    My question to bring to the discussion, is what percentage of the population seeking to lose weight fits into the "ELMM" is BS blog post compared to the percentage of the population that fits into successfully being able to lose weight when they understand what is involved in the "Why Am I Not Losing Weight: 11 Reasons You’re Failing To Lose Fat" blog post?

    I ask because far too many MFP users (myself included) seem to fall into the routine of responding online or in person to people we know with the "CICO worked for me, so it will work for you too" without any consideration of the complexities for some others that they may be going through to attempt to lose, gain, or maintain weight.
  • jgnatca
    jgnatca Posts: 14,464 Member
    Options
    Fine points. For all the ranting in my profiled article, the author does not deny the essential requirement to hit CICO.

    It's how to get there that is hard for many people to grasp.

    I'm less interested in figuring out what percentage of the population is following one method or another (or, frankly, how many are simply floating through life with no plan at all) as I am in figuring out what the successes have in common.
  • Annie_01
    Annie_01 Posts: 3,096 Member
    Options
    Well I had this long narrative written out and decided to condense it a little...

    Maybe those that have been successful faced those "road blocks" and resolved the ones that they could and came to terms with those that were out of their control.
  • jgnatca
    jgnatca Posts: 14,464 Member
    Options
    Hey, @Annie_01 I agree with you. Hindsight is so much sharper. I had so many obstacles to exercise pre-loss. The standard advice did nothing for me. I learned two big lessons. All movement is good, and if I like it, chances are I will do it again. The second lesson was LISTEN TO MY BODY. If something freaking hurts, find out why and modify.

    https://www.ted.com/talks/emily_balcetis_why_some_people_find_exercise_harder_than_others
  • SingingSingleTracker
    SingingSingleTracker Posts: 1,866 Member
    Options
    jgnatca wrote: »
    Fine points. For all the ranting in my profiled article, the author does not deny the essential requirement to hit CICO.

    It's how to get there that is hard for many people to grasp.

    I'm less interested in figuring out what percentage of the population is following one method or another (or, frankly, how many are simply floating through life with no plan at all) as I am in figuring out what the successes have in common.

    Well, let me ask more frankly then. How many people need to be coddled, hand held, and comforted? That's what I was getting at in asking about what percentage fits into that group.

    The successes all have one thing in common: eating at a deficit to lose weight. Isn't that all we need to know?
  • Annie_01
    Annie_01 Posts: 3,096 Member
    Options
    SingingSingleTracker wrote: »
    jgnatca wrote: »
    Fine points. For all the ranting in my profiled article, the author does not deny the essential requirement to hit CICO.

    It's how to get there that is hard for many people to grasp.

    I'm less interested in figuring out what percentage of the population is following one method or another (or, frankly, how many are simply floating through life with no plan at all) as I am in figuring out what the successes have in common.

    Well, let me ask more frankly then. How many people need to be coddled, hand held, and comforted? That's what I was getting at in asking about what percentage fits into that group.

    The successes all have one thing in common: eating at a deficit to lose weight. Isn't that all we need to know?

    I don't know...is it? IMO that is too simple of an answer. Scientifically you are correct. Only problem is that peoples emotions and lives don't always fit that scientific model. I think many of us have to face those obstacles that got us where we are before we can apply the science part of this equation.

    Look how many people start threads titled..."I'm Back". They let those same obstacles that caused them to gain weight and become unfit initially to take them back to the same place. IMO we have to face those obstacles before we can be truly successful.

    Also there have been people that have kept the weight off...they are successful eating no more than what they burn...and they are still unhappy with themselves. Are they successful with their new "lifestyle"?

    I don't know...I am going through right all of these questions in my own mind. I get so close sometimes to where I want to be and then I let one of those obstacles set me back. I can do the science part of this equation...I know what to do...I just can't seem to get all of those obstacles out of the way. I am not alone in this type of battle...I think many people face the same thing.
  • jgnatca
    jgnatca Posts: 14,464 Member
    Options
    @Annie_01 I hear you about the wisdom of finding a happy compromise. I also stay away from the accountabillybuddy threads. Here and there I'll check in with a post bariatric person as there are special challenges and I really want to help them succeed.
  • jgnatca
    jgnatca Posts: 14,464 Member
    Options
    I just recently went through a series of exercises with a life coach to polish my corporate presence. Hoo, yeah, it was tough. Hoo, yeah it took discipline. I was channelling moments from my tough mudder to power through. Some mornings I had to give myself a pep talk just to face the day.

    Everyone starts small then build from those early successes.

    Most people underestimate the power of small changes.

    I mentor new employees all the time. Some are now in very responsible positions. The trick is to start where people are at and give them a single stretch goal. Then give them another.

    Remind them of all the things they are doing right.

    There are some people who don't change no matter how much you coach them. I'd call them "floaters". People who think that life is something that happens to them. I might just drop them a question once in a while to get them thinking.

    I convinced a young lady to take a promotion at the department of Agriculture. As a vegetarian she felt ethically bound to refuse it. I asked her if she would similarly turn down a job at Justice or Health? She had a re-think and took the job.
  • SingingSingleTracker
    SingingSingleTracker Posts: 1,866 Member
    Options
    Annie_01 wrote: »
    IMO Before people can learn discipline they have to take responsibility for themselves. Quit depending on someone else to do it for them or to make it easier for them.

    If someone truly needs help I have all of the patience in the world...I have little patience for those that are just too lazy to do the work.

    Yes, that's where we have to be careful in choosing which posts or threads we respond to in the first place. I have no idea what it is like to be obese, what it took to get obese, or the process of losing weight from being obese. I know what it is like to be 30-40 pounds heavier than the ideal weight range (where I have spent the majority of my adult life) when I got off track for a few years, and what it took to get back on track to my ideal weight range. But in terms of obesity, I have no business responding to a post or thread that involves it. Yet, that is only one portion of the MFP community. The rare time I will respond to a thread that may involve obesity is when it comes to bicycling as I highly encourage it as a form of exercise for all shapes and sizes due to its low impact.

    Interesting thoughts above about the extremes of brutally honest on one end, and overly coddled on the other end. I'm sure plenty fit in at needing encouragement from both extremes, as well as plenty fitting in that need encouragement from a more middle ground point of view. It's very hard to gauge what is needed on an internet forum, as well as face to face without knowing more background. We can all relate to the thousands of posts we have read that say "I am exercising every day, I've been eating XXXX amount of calories per day, I've been doing this for X amount of weeks/months and I'm not losing any weight....yada, yada, yada". I am always surprised at how many of those turn into a denial thread from the OP even when it is pointed out by multiple posters that - in simple terms - the math is incorrect which is why weight is not being lost. Always interesting that help is asked for, but when concrete (and brutally honest) advice is given - it is often rejected.

    Living within your means in terms of food (calories), money/budget, hours in the day, work/family balance, etc... requires a level of discipline that surprises many.

    Getting back to the ELMM is BS where the author says:

    Again, technically, ELMM is what is required, but it’s useless advice because the majority of people either don’t know how to live a lifestyle that involves consuming fewer calories and increasing physical activity.

    Well, for the majority of human history, our species did know.

    He then goes onto show the chart with all the complexity, and the two lists (one about the EL, and one about the MM).

    Even after working through the myriad of possibilities that fit into the "complexity" of it all, in the end - the science of eating at a deficit to lose the weight, eating at a surplus to gain the weight, or eating at maintenance to maintain the weight is - or should be the educational outcome.
  • Gallowmere1984
    Gallowmere1984 Posts: 6,626 Member
    Options
    Annie_01 wrote: »
    Gallowmere1984 wrote: »
    I suspect that if we had to condense it down to a single factor for nost successes, it would be discipline, either innate, or learned. The fact is that until people learn to control their emotional and psychological responses to food, they are a ridiculous cycle of "fell off the wagon", "I hate myself", and "I'm back".

    The only real problem with this, is that I have yet to find a surefire way to instill said discipline into others. Frankly, I'm starting to think that it's something that some have, but most don't. You can't trigger what isn't there to begin with.

    I think most everyone is capable of having discipline. I am just not sure that everyone wants to be disciplined.

    Since joining the community section of MFP I have been constantly amazed at how many people want someone else to tell them what to do.

    Questions such as...

    What should I eat for breakfast?

    How much should I eat?

    How many jumping jacks should I do?

    etc

    etc

    There was a thread once asking how many calories in an egg. I just wanted to scream...LOOK IT UP!

    IMO Before people can learn discipline they have to take responsibility for themselves. Quit depending on someone else to do it for them or to make it easier for them.

    If someone truly needs help I have all of the patience in the world...I have little patience for those that are just too lazy to do the work.

    I agree, and feel that this is a cultural problem that's spreading like a plague through all of the developed world. With so much information now at everybody's fingertips, I think many fall prey to the absolute worst possibility in the training and nutrition worlds: believing that everything has been figured out, and that they need only ask a few questions.

    Unfortunately, most of them pretty rapidly discover that CICO is the only universal truth, and the rest of it is a bunch of guesswork at best, usually basef upon some imaginary "average person". Hell, even something as basic as BMR numbers can vary to an absurd degree, and that's way before we get into individual response to specific nutrients and training regimens.

    It's a lifelong learning process, because just when you think you have it figured out, you get a few years older, and your body slips you another curveball. That seems to be far too much effort for most to adhere to, if these forums are any indicator.

    Actually, compared to the rest of the world, these forums are a bastion of self-discipline and understanding. Yeah...we're screwed.
  • Ke22yB
    Ke22yB Posts: 969 Member
    Options
    I seem to agree that the science is the mechanics of the process and most of us can easily grasp the how to or CICO as you are putting it here. I am surrounded by Drs and nurses as family members who try talking coaxing guiding etc. and it wasn't until after I was over 60 yrs old and had a health scare ( not a crisis yet) that I emotionally was prepared to make the " life changes" not the diet that was required. It took years to achieve the success that I enjoy and there are still times the emotional issues try to push me off course.
    I run 5x a week over 4 or 5 miles and swim 6x a week over an hour a day both solitary activities and realize
    " If it is to be it is up to me" the power of 2 letter words
  • lemurcat12
    lemurcat12 Posts: 30,886 Member
    edited December 2016
    Options
    Annie_01 wrote: »
    Gallowmere1984 wrote: »
    I suspect that if we had to condense it down to a single factor for nost successes, it would be discipline, either innate, or learned. The fact is that until people learn to control their emotional and psychological responses to food, they are a ridiculous cycle of "fell off the wagon", "I hate myself", and "I'm back".

    The only real problem with this, is that I have yet to find a surefire way to instill said discipline into others. Frankly, I'm starting to think that it's something that some have, but most don't. You can't trigger what isn't there to begin with.

    I think most everyone is capable of having discipline. I am just not sure that everyone wants to be disciplined.

    Since joining the community section of MFP I have been constantly amazed at how many people want someone else to tell them what to do.

    Questions such as...

    What should I eat for breakfast?

    How much should I eat?

    How many jumping jacks should I do?

    etc

    etc

    There was a thread once asking how many calories in an egg. I just wanted to scream...LOOK IT UP!

    IMO Before people can learn discipline they have to take responsibility for themselves. Quit depending on someone else to do it for them or to make it easier for them.

    If someone truly needs help I have all of the patience in the world...I have little patience for those that are just too lazy to do the work.

    This has been the thing that most amazed me at MFP.

    My failing is kind of the opposite -- I think of it as a sign of weakness to ask for help (not saying that's good, it's a weakness in itself). To me, it would have been a failure to ask my doctor how to lose weight and I basically just avoided the topic as best I could until I was ready to figure it out for myself. I find someone else telling me what to do tends to be counterproductive. I can't imagine asking someone on the internet to tell me what to do, especially when it's either based on personal stuff or information I could easily figure out.

    That said, I did find some of the information I happened on at MFP quite useful. That includes some of the discussion of TDEE (I'd found it on my own but found the discussion on MFP useful), the arguments for flexible dieting and paying attention to macros (same), and the thread on proper logging (again, probably would have figured it out, and was losing without being that accurate, but understanding how to log more carefully and find the best entries made it an easier process).

    Clearly, though, people differ.

    On Gallowmere's comment, it seems to me that the same person can have discipline in a particular area at times of his or her life and not in others. I know a number of people who quit drinking (as I did), and sometimes they talk about others who have not as if those people are making a different choice than they themselves did, and I always think "it's the choice you were making at one time in your life and who knows what they will decide later." Same with weight -- there was a time I didn't care enough to do what needed to be done and then I time I did. When people act helpless or without discipline I often do think it's not the right time for them, but I don't think they are without discipline or hopeless. (When I was fat I was often extremely disciplined about other things, much more so than now in some cases.)

    I have no point here, just musing.

    Would I have been better off if professionals had reached out to me when fat? I am not sure it would have done any good as I didn't have the right frame of mind, and when I did have the right frame of mind I sought for and found the right information for myself and was open to figuring out a plan and strategy that worked for me personally, based on my knowledge of myself. But I'm good at planning. I kind of think that's not a special skill but something everyone should need and if we coddle them they won't develop it, but could be I'm being unfair here, I dunno. (I'm actually open to changing my mind, somewhat, but I also think that we more often than not don't expect enough of people and should encourage them to demand more of themselves, whatever that means.)

Categories