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The complexity of weight loss
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I'm enough of a diva that I've lamented the unavailability of Bok Choy in small-town Alberta. My new small-town friend turned to me and asked, "What's Bok Choy?"
Oy vey.0 -
Gallowmere1984 wrote: »I suspect that if we had to condense it down to a single factor for nost successes, it would be discipline, either innate, or learned. The fact is that until people learn to control their emotional and psychological responses to food, they are a ridiculous cycle of "fell off the wagon", "I hate myself", and "I'm back".
The only real problem with this, is that I have yet to find a surefire way to instill said discipline into others. Frankly, I'm starting to think that it's something that some have, but most don't. You can't trigger what isn't there to begin with.
I think most everyone is capable of having discipline. I am just not sure that everyone wants to be disciplined.
Since joining the community section of MFP I have been constantly amazed at how many people want someone else to tell them what to do.
Questions such as...
What should I eat for breakfast?
How much should I eat?
How many jumping jacks should I do?
etc
etc
There was a thread once asking how many calories in an egg. I just wanted to scream...LOOK IT UP!
IMO Before people can learn discipline they have to take responsibility for themselves. Quit depending on someone else to do it for them or to make it easier for them.
If someone truly needs help I have all of the patience in the world...I have little patience for those that are just too lazy to do the work.
This is going to come across as elitist, I think, but I don't believe it's always simple laziness. Sometimes it's simple "lost-ness".
In my pre-retirement career, I spent some time as an IT manager. I was responsible, among other things, for helping people develop and progress in their careers. I came away with an inescapable sense that different people have different learning styles, and that some of those learning styles more limiting than others.
Some people can just learn things, do their own research, read between the lines, fill in missing info, identify missing pieces and seek out information to fill the gaps.
Other people need to be taught things, in a structured way - they want a class, or a mentor with a structured approach, or some such thing. Sometimes, these folks just need to be taught a sort of conceptual framework to hang new facts on, sometimes they need to be taught everything. Once they are taught, they may develop similar working capabilities (in the subject matter) to the person who can learn with less structure. They work hard at learning - they aren't lazy; they just need a degree of structure (call it hand-holding or coddling if you like). Every once in a while, I've encountered someone who could be taught (in a structured way) how to learn (in an unstructured way), but it's rare.
Then there are some people who just need to be told what to do next. They may then do it, energetically and with commitment, but they're never going to make the career progress that either of the other types will.
Putting the learning styles in 3 categories is a cartoon, of course - it's really a continuum, and there variations in how people learn best along different axes (learning by reading, learning by seeing it done, learning by doing, etc., and other wrinkles).
Then there are people who are lazy. They avoid doing things. They can be of any of the above learning styles, but they're also more likely to be less able to learn (perhaps because they're unwilling).
Lazy is a different thing from lost or clueless. Lost-ness or clueless-ness manifests in various dysfunctional ways that can look like laziness, though. Some people, facing a disempowering, dislocating sense that they must act, but don't know how to proceed, panic and Just. Can't. Process. Anything. Just asking ridiculous or simple questions doesn't necessarily demonstrate laziness.
I think we see some of the same learning styles play out on MFP. A lot of the frequent helpful-advice-posters are people who are readily able to learn on their own, in an unstructured say. Some of them are good at empathizing with people who aren't able to learn that way, and find ways to help those people move along. Yeah, it takes patience.
The psychological dimension of this - those who need careful, positive, warm support vs. those who need "tough love" as one example - is a whole 'nother piece. Clearly, no one who is offering help needs to be able to reach everyone who needs help . . . we ain't gettin' paid for this.
Random afterthoughts:
I often say that everyday life (combination of taxes, investments, medical issues, mortgages, contracts, technology etc.) is getting too complicated for the average person to manage; maybe weight loss, health and fitness are, too?
A lot of people all the way through school were not very good at "story problems", even when they new how to do the required math. Maybe some of that applies here as well? Weight loss and nutrition really are a big story problem!
Reading comprehension, retention, reading for details and context rather than responding to some "hot button": Read any thread here, and you can't avoid realizing how uncommon these skills are. Heck, I probably wouldn't even have written this long, ridiculous reply if I'd properly processed the point of the thread, and the key facts in the post to which I'm responding. 12 -
I like your broader context of how different learners require a different approach.1
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The very poor have trouble saving up for sales, transportation to get to and from big box stores, and stocking up on staples. They may not have a large freezer, or limited cooking facilities.
Yeah, it's called living in a food desert:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_desert
Interesting. I've never heard that term before. It would be horrible living in a food desert. Where i live atleast, there's a major supermarket in just about every suburb, all of them have a good selection of fresh fruit, veggies and meat.
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Christine_72 wrote: »The very poor have trouble saving up for sales, transportation to get to and from big box stores, and stocking up on staples. They may not have a large freezer, or limited cooking facilities.
Yeah, it's called living in a food desert:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_desert
Interesting. I've never heard that term before. It would be horrible living in a food desert. Where i live atleast, there's a major supermarket in just about every suburb, all of them have a good selection of fresh fruit, veggies and meat.
In the USA, a "food desert" is defined as being more than a mile from a grocery store.
It's actually really patently absurd given the way that most people live in this country. Heck, I'm in a "food desert" at the moment. The grocery store is 6 whole miles away from me. This isn't really a big deal, I happen to have a car (a 1995 sedan, for the record), but even if I didn't, there's bus service. I took the bus or rode my bicycle to get groceries for a long time.
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Christine_72 wrote: »The very poor have trouble saving up for sales, transportation to get to and from big box stores, and stocking up on staples. They may not have a large freezer, or limited cooking facilities.
Yeah, it's called living in a food desert:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_desert
Interesting. I've never heard that term before. It would be horrible living in a food desert. Where i live atleast, there's a major supermarket in just about every suburb, all of them have a good selection of fresh fruit, veggies and meat.
In the USA, a "food desert" is defined as being more than a mile from a grocery store.
It's actually really patently absurd given the way that most people live in this country. Heck, I'm in a "food desert" at the moment. The grocery store is 6 whole miles away from me. This isn't really a big deal, I happen to have a car (a 1995 sedan, for the record), but even if I didn't, there's bus service. I took the bus or rode my bicycle to get groceries for a long time.
Geez that makes no sense. 1 mile is nothing, that's an easy walkable distance for most people.
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Christine_72 wrote: »The very poor have trouble saving up for sales, transportation to get to and from big box stores, and stocking up on staples. They may not have a large freezer, or limited cooking facilities.
Yeah, it's called living in a food desert:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_desert
Interesting. I've never heard that term before. It would be horrible living in a food desert. Where i live atleast, there's a major supermarket in just about every suburb, all of them have a good selection of fresh fruit, veggies and meat.
In the USA, a "food desert" is defined as being more than a mile from a grocery store.
It's actually really patently absurd given the way that most people live in this country. Heck, I'm in a "food desert" at the moment. The grocery store is 6 whole miles away from me. This isn't really a big deal, I happen to have a car (a 1995 sedan, for the record), but even if I didn't, there's bus service. I took the bus or rode my bicycle to get groceries for a long time.
This is why I always found the idea ridiculous. I live about 2.5 miles from the nearest grocery store. Clearly, I should weigh 400 lbs., have T2D, and every blood ailment known to man.
What's that? Walking five miles everyday for groceries is helping to prevent those?
The funny part is, people are always asking me why I don't have a car, when I lost my license, etc. Their faces when I inform them that I actually own two vehicles and have a commercial driver's license with all endorsements...at what point did walking "because I have legs" become such an alien concept?
Just another reason that I lose more faith in people as a whole, every day.5 -
Don't you guys know that walking is only for exercising and extra calories...not for use in daily life.
People always look at me a little strange when they find that I walk to the store and haul back most of my groceries for the week. My grocery trolly is one of my most valuable assets.
As far as "food deserts" go...I think that they can exist even if one lives next door to a grocery store. I have had times in my life that all you would find in my kitchen are boxes of macaroni and cheese,hot dogs, bologna, bread and potatoes. I took the money that I had which some weeks might only be $10 and tried to buy foods that would feed me and my daughter for the week. Mac and cheese at the time I could find 5 boxes for $1, $1 for bread, potatoes were cheap and I there was always BOGO free on the bologna or hot dogs. My choices were not always healthy and certainly not low calorie. However my choices did allow me to put food in my child's mouth.
I think my pantry and fridge might have qualified for a "food desert"...it was pretty barren at times.5 -
Gallowmere1984 wrote: »I suspect that if we had to condense it down to a single factor for nost successes, it would be discipline, either innate, or learned. The fact is that until people learn to control their emotional and psychological responses to food, they are a ridiculous cycle of "fell off the wagon", "I hate myself", and "I'm back".
The only real problem with this, is that I have yet to find a surefire way to instill said discipline into others. Frankly, I'm starting to think that it's something that some have, but most don't. You can't trigger what isn't there to begin with.
I think most everyone is capable of having discipline. I am just not sure that everyone wants to be disciplined.
Since joining the community section of MFP I have been constantly amazed at how many people want someone else to tell them what to do.
Questions such as...
What should I eat for breakfast?
How much should I eat?
How many jumping jacks should I do?
etc
etc
There was a thread once asking how many calories in an egg. I just wanted to scream...LOOK IT UP!
IMO Before people can learn discipline they have to take responsibility for themselves. Quit depending on someone else to do it for them or to make it easier for them.
If someone truly needs help I have all of the patience in the world...I have little patience for those that are just too lazy to do the work.
Edited for length...though it was a good read and thought provoking.
Random afterthoughts:
I often say that everyday life (combination of taxes, investments, medical issues, mortgages, contracts, technology etc.) is getting too complicated for the average person to manage; maybe weight loss, health and fitness are, too?
A lot of people all the way through school were not very good at "story problems", even when they new how to do the required math. Maybe some of that applies here as well? Weight loss and nutrition really are a big story problem!
Reading comprehension, retention, reading for details and context rather than responding to some "hot button": Read any thread here, and you can't avoid realizing how uncommon these skills are. Heck, I probably wouldn't even have written this long, ridiculous reply if I'd properly processed the point of the thread, and the key facts in the post to which I'm responding.
The following is based on what I saw when I worked in the educational system several years ago.
Sadly critical thinking is not always taught in schools any more. Essay questions were eliminated for the most part and replaced with fill-in-the-blank, T or F or matching up by drawing a line. Only those children that were at the top of the class and qualified for advanced learning had any access to more advanced learning techniques.
There were several reasons for this but one reason was..."building self-esteem"...less advanced children did better on these types of tests. They never had to think outside the box nor use their reasoning skills.
We live in a world where knowledge is just a few seconds away...sadly there are many that will go with the first answer they find and never question it nor research further.
I think that your post is on point with the topic of the OP...why is all of this so difficult...why are there so many outside influences that make losing weight difficult for some. Most of all...why when something is as simple as ELMM...CICO...etc...etc...is it so hard to execute.
IMO...it is the "roadblocks" that were depicted in the chart shown at the beginning of this thread that I think holds the key for many people that struggle with weight loss(among many other things). We let them send us down a detour that for some reason we can't seem to find the main road again.
I agree that everyday life can take its toll on people. They are just trying to make it through the day with very little hope for the future. Why worry about weight when all you are trying to do is to survive the day?
I have been there. In the last four years of trying to lose weight I have had failures and successes. Each time that I renew my weight loss efforts I get a little closer to reaching my goals. Each time that I have had failure I have allowed those "roadblocks" to send me down detours. Each time the detour is getting a little shorter.
For me anyway, success depends on removing the "roadblocks" taking them apart brick by brick...and not going down the detours.
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fattymcrunnerpants wrote: »Ah, here we go: https://books.google.com/books?id=Cm_kLhU1AP0C&pg=PA433&lpg=PA433&dq=BMR+Hypothyroid+20%&source=bl&ots=ZrboZhlWW-&sig=f1j68wz4RO27XKh68c8h9khthds&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiC3deJvJXRAhUJiVQKHYLmCJEQ6AEIKjAD#v=onepage&q=BMR Hypothyroid 20%&f=false
This source says that a normal BMR test someone in a normal range will test + or - 20% those with hypothyroidism can test -30 to -40 % . That's a pretty big difference even if a "normal" reading would be -20% that's still a 10% decrease in BMR not a 5% difference. Those on the more severe end would be up to even a 20% difference.
Mind you that's on the low in. The calorie consumption guidelines assume an
"average" BMR right about in the middle giving the 1,200 cal/ day guidelines. Meaning someone who has a super severe hypothyroid problem could feasibly eat 500 (ridiculously low for impact) and not be able to lose. In reality, even living off of 800 ish cals/ day can cause issues as well and is not a life I would suggest anyone live unless they are under complete care of a doctor and only for short while.
I'm familiar with the text, but have never been able to find a reputable source for this claim. All published research has never moved beyond the median of 5%.
As for source here is one of the more recent journals on REE/levothyroxine: http://press.endocrine.org/doi/pdf/10.1210/jcem.82.4.3873
Personally, in November 2015 I conducted a self study with my team and went off my 175/200 mcg alt day dose of Synthroid to zero. I was due for a full body scan anyway, but went 30 days without and tested my BMR each day during the study. My BMR started at 2002 and was 1913 on day 30. I was 44, 6'4" 218lbs and at the time and experienced a normal fluctuation of weight throughout this.
Even so, doing something so dramatic as reducing calories by 60% is dangerous. It is a fine example of ad absurdum, but little else. Levothyroxine simply does not have this dramatic of an impact on weight.2 -
Don't you guys know that walking is only for exercising and extra calories...not for use in daily life.
People always look at me a little strange when they find that I walk to the store and haul back most of my groceries for the week. My grocery trolly is one of my most valuable assets.
That's the benefit of living in a city, I suppose. Most people walk to the store and it's certainly not considered weird.
I have a mainstream, full-service grocery store a half mile from my place, but between me and the L, where I pop in frequently for quick purchases, and also am just over a half mile from a TJs and a mile from 2 separate WF, all of which are near public transportation, so I often walk to them or take the L from work to them and then walk home.
I also am easy walking distance to a great meat market, can take public transportation to a good fish shop, and have a green market available all year round on the weekend (again, I need to take public transportation to this, although I have walked it -- about 3 miles there and then if I have a lot to carry I will take the bus back).
I WOULD fall in one proposed (weirdly aggressive) definition of food desert IF my neighborhood were lower income or a smaller percentage of people had cars (but it does not, and is about the farthest thing from a food desert that one could find).
The definition is different in more rural areas, and requires a farther distance than in cities (and still something about car access, I think).
We looked at this in another thread and for how often food deserts are brought up as a thing, the numbers were quite low in terms of percentage of people that lived in areas that met all the qualifications, I think. That said, and despite my questioning of the definition, the access varies a LOT within my city, and the options have traditionally been very different in different neighborhoods, Despite that, I do think the kinds of things that BurnEmAll mentioned (and that you reference) are actually the most relevant to why it can be much harder for poorer people.0 -
Gallowmere1984 wrote: »Christine_72 wrote: »The very poor have trouble saving up for sales, transportation to get to and from big box stores, and stocking up on staples. They may not have a large freezer, or limited cooking facilities.
Yeah, it's called living in a food desert:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_desert
Interesting. I've never heard that term before. It would be horrible living in a food desert. Where i live atleast, there's a major supermarket in just about every suburb, all of them have a good selection of fresh fruit, veggies and meat.
In the USA, a "food desert" is defined as being more than a mile from a grocery store.
It's actually really patently absurd given the way that most people live in this country. Heck, I'm in a "food desert" at the moment. The grocery store is 6 whole miles away from me. This isn't really a big deal, I happen to have a car (a 1995 sedan, for the record), but even if I didn't, there's bus service. I took the bus or rode my bicycle to get groceries for a long time.
This is why I always found the idea ridiculous. I live about 2.5 miles from the nearest grocery store. Clearly, I should weigh 400 lbs., have T2D, and every blood ailment known to man.
What's that? Walking five miles everyday for groceries is helping to prevent those?
The funny part is, people are always asking me why I don't have a car, when I lost my license, etc. Their faces when I inform them that I actually own two vehicles and have a commercial driver's license with all endorsements...at what point did walking "because I have legs" become such an alien concept?
Just another reason that I lose more faith in people as a whole, every day.
I completely agree with your main point, that walking is largely just "not done", not in most people's range of "normal" behavior. When I chose to walk to pick up my car after a night drop-off/emergency repair (around 4.5 miles), I thought some of my friends were going to have a cow, especially as it was around 28 degrees F (which is plenty warm if you're dressed properly, and walking briskly). They told me I should have called them for a ride! (Shop has a courtesy car service; I wanted the extra movement in an otherwise-busy day.)
Along with that, though, I think it must be stated that some of these US food deserts are in areas where sensible people would avoid walking, especially if those people were female or elderly. There are urban areas where good parents don't normally let their kids play outside, where women are going to be harassed (possibly hands-on), and "weak" people on the way to the store are easy hold-up victims (many have no bank accounts, so they're likely carrying cash). This is to say nothing of dragging a couple of toddlers along for the grocery walk, or walking with physical infirmities.
Frankly, I think healthy men don't always viscerally understand what it's like, what other people's rational fears are, about being alone at certain times/places. Even my liberal-minded (male) massage therapist didn't initially understand why I wouldn't walk all over our urban areas & the back trails where our male homeless folks often hang out, at night and by myself, in the way his 6'3", 10-years-younger, athletic male self did. (And I have to say I'm pretty bold, compared to a lot of women my age (61) about where I'll go by myself, and when. Even compared to some men my age, for that matter.)
Still, none of this food desert stuff is a rational excuse for obesity, though - although it might be an excuse for poor or under-nutrition. I think the idea that someone posted earlier about "food as solace in stressful lives" is one element; being raised with poor nutrition habits (on the part of everyone around you) is another; and - though it may again be elitist of me to say this - so is the inability of some folks to conceptually, intellectually or perhaps emotionally handle the idea of changing their lives.
We often fail to understand the solidity of certain limitations for people who differ from us in emotional stability, intellect, or whatever. People who have an actionable ability to change their lives, are much less likely to be living in many food deserts in the first place - these are not often very nice places (with some rural exceptions), and in the urban cases, many of the people who can leave, have left already.
Dang, there I go being long again. 6 -
Gallowmere1984 wrote: »What's that? Walking five miles everyday for groceries is helping to prevent those?
I live in a city, but, sadly, the company I work for moved its headquarters to a god-forsaken suburb. There are no sidewalks where I work.0 -
The very poor have trouble saving up for sales, transportation to get to and from big box stores, and stocking up on staples. They may not have a large freezer, or limited cooking facilities.
Yeah, it's called living in a food desert:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_desertIn the USA, a "food desert" is defined as being more than a mile from a grocery store.
That's not what the link says at all. It isn't even close. You didn't even get the right number of definitions, there isn't a single one, there are many:
Definitions
While there are a myriad of definitions for the term food desert, none of them are necessarily mutually exclusive from one another as each recognizes that food deserts exist when people have limited access to particularly nutritious foods. However, because different parameters and measures may be used depending on the group, variations in definitions exist according to the:
- type of area, whether it be urban or rural[8]
- economic barriers and affordability of accessing nutritious foods, including the cost of transportation, price of foods, and incomes of those in the area[6][9][10]
- distance to the nearest supermarket or grocery store[11]
- amount of supermarkets in the given area[11]
- type of foods offered, whether it be fresh or prepared[6][10]
- nutritional values of the foods offered[12]
The multitude of definitions which vary by country have fueled controversy over the existence of food deserts.[6]2 -
NorthCascades wrote: »Gallowmere1984 wrote: »What's that? Walking five miles everyday for groceries is helping to prevent those?
I live in a city, but, sadly, the company I work for moved its headquarters to a god-forsaken suburb. There are no sidewalks where I work.
About half of my walk doesn't include sidewalks, and has less than eight inches between edge of pavement and ditch. Fortunately, that part of my route has a relatively low volume of vehicle traffic, so it's not uncommon to even see a lot of elderly people walking on the side of the road. I tend to jump to the other side of the ditch when I hear a car coming, but I doubt that most of those 80+ year old people are doing so.
Strangely enough, there have been precisely zero pedestrians struck by cars in this area in the last 25 years or so. I suspect that I may live in the last remaining place on Earth, where people actually pay attention while driving.1 -
We had a long discussion of food deserts in another thread, wish I remembered where, but there is a US gov't definition (for now anyway): http://americannutritionassociation.org/newsletter/usda-defines-food-deserts
"The USDA defines what's considered a food desert and which areas will be helped by this initiative: To qualify as a “low-access community,” at least 500 people and/or at least 33 percent of the census tract's population must reside more than one mile from a supermarket or large grocery store (for rural census tracts, the distance is more than 10 miles)." (See http://americannutritionassociation.org/newsletter/usda-defines-food-deserts) The food desert map combines low access with low income -- for example, here is Chicago and the surrounding area based on the 1 mile low access + low income measure (shown in green -- I didn't highlight the .5 mile one):
For those not familiar with working with US census information, a census tract is usually around 4000 people.
Here's more documentation (also from the USDA) that takes other factors into account: https://www.ers.usda.gov/data-products/food-access-research-atlas/documentation/1 -
I'm in agreement with the blogger that ELMM advice, if given by itself, is unhelpful. I can't imagine someone saying "Wow, that just never occurred to me" unless it was dripping with sarcasm. Helpful as a mantra perhaps.
A similar but extremely helpful piece of advice that often accompanies ELMM is to consider the math/numbers behind CICO. Previous to my time on MFP, if I were to eat a 700 calorie treat and saw a 2lb increase on the scale the next day, I misunderstood what was happening. The concept that it takes an overage of 7000 calories to produce a true 2lb weight gain has been very freeing.
OP, you suggest "small permanent changes" as the path to meaningful change. I hear it frequently but I have trouble making it fit with my own experiences. Perhaps it's a semantics thing. Care to expound upon that idea?1 -
What's working for me right now is EMMM.
I've upped my calories to sedentary maintenance and am creating a deficit with exercise, and it's working perfectly. I tried this once in the past and it did nothing for weight loss, but i don't think my logging was as accurate back then, plus i recently tweaked the numbers in fitbit, so i'm not getting as many calories burned anymore.0 -
@goldthistime sure I'll give some examples.
I am a very conservative eater, following my diabetic training and the Canada Food Guide. I have never followed a fad diet for instance, and I don't starve and binge. Before my recent transformation I was gaining a few pounds every year. It all added up by the time I was in my fifties. Small changes included:
- eliminating one slice of toast at breakfast.
- Replacing bacon and syrup with yogurt and fruit on my weekend pancakes.
- Two slice pizza max. Fill out with a salad.
- Late afternoon snack to come home full (avoid multiple snack trips before dinner)
- Add 5% steps goal weekly to my embarrassingly low starting step count. I still wear my step counter daily.
- Walk until it got boring.
- Skinnier lunches of soup or salad.
- Learn to run.
- Walk/run 2K plus daily.
- Register for runs and then train to them.
Though exercise doesn't gain me a crap load of calories it does stabilize me. And it reaps me a more direct reward than weight loss. I am more agile, I have pink in my cheeks, and I can do more.2 -
@goldthistime sure I'll give some examples.
I am a very conservative eater, following my diabetic training and the Canada Food Guide. I have never followed a fad diet for instance, and I don't starve and binge. Before my recent transformation I was gaining a few pounds every year. It all added up by the time I was in my fifties. Small changes included:
- eliminating one slice of toast at breakfast.
- Replacing bacon and syrup with yogurt and fruit on my weekend pancakes.
- Two slice pizza max. Fill out with a salad.
- Late afternoon snack to come home full (avoid multiple snack trips before dinner)
- Add 5% steps goal weekly to my embarrassingly low starting step count. I still wear my step counter daily.
- Walk until it got boring.
- Skinnier lunches of soup or salad.
- Learn to run.
- Walk/run 2K plus daily.
- Register for runs and then train to them.
Though exercise doesn't gain me a crap load of calories it does stabilize me. And it reaps me a more direct reward than weight loss. I am more agile, I have pink in my cheeks, and I can do more.
Doesn't cutting out maple syrup violate some Canadian law?
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