When you have 814 calories left and less than 2 hours left in your logging day...
Replies
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hmm..
A wheel of camembert or brie (the size at Aldi are ~800 calories).
A pint of ice cream (not sure how many calories).
A bottle of wine
Mmm, I'd do half a wheel of brie and half a bottle of wine (I do have to share with DH). Either the day I earned them or I save them for the weekend. Yep, I eat my exercise calories and reward myself with indulgent foods. That's how this works (assuming following MFP method).2 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »SymbolismNZ wrote: »cerise_noir wrote: »No, there isn't. Your body doesn't recognize time, and it certainly doesn't stop digesting when you go to sleep.
I eat sometimes, up to an hour before sleep. It does not interrupt my sleep, or give me any discomfort. I've lost quite a bit of weight and still lose.
I love how people can be so sure of things when research indicates differently.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4425165/
TL;DR? Those that have a large complex meal within two hours before bed suffer irregular sleeping patterns, have higher appetites and such.
She was talking 800 calories, that's a substantial meal.
Did you read the link you cited?
First of all, this: "Similarly, studies in free-living healthy adults have shown that meal satiety also varies with time of day and that food intake during the night is less satiating and leads to greater daily caloric intake compared to food consumed in the morning hours [6,7]." -- if you check the cites -- is referring to one study, and there are a variety of different studies with different results, as others have noted. Even this study would not say not to eat late on one occasion, and says that it seems to be less satiating to have more calories later in the day ON AVERAGE. That doesn't mean it is for all humans, and what we do know is that satiety seems to be individual. Many people here eat the majority of their calories at night because that is easier for them. I eat dinner late (although not the majority of my calories at night, which is what this study is talking about), because (1) my lifestyle requires it, as I would not be able to have dinner otherwise, and (2) I do not struggle with hunger doing so. Indeed, I think eating late makes it easier for me as I am not tempted to snack after dinner ever.
The piece you cited goes on to say:
* "While data from animal studies appear to support this concept [8,9], not all studies concur [10]."
* Shift workers may have messed up body clocks and otherwise have problems. (Not relevant here.)
* Night Eating Syndrome (REGULARLY eating a LARGE PERCENTAGE of calories AFTER DINNER, not relevant here) is associated with obesity IN SOME STUDIES (i.e., not in others). Moreover, even as to those finding connections, "It is unclear, however, as to whether obesity is a consequence or cause of NES."
Further:
"These data from shift workers and NES populations provide some evidence to suggest that consuming the majority of daily nutrients late in the evening may have health consequences. However, this concept cannot be fully understood without considering, the influence of sleep, or lack thereof.....
Indeed, some epidemiological data suggests that consuming a higher proportion of calories later in the day, as opposed to earlier in the day, is associated weight gain [13,14,15,16,17]. However, not all studies agree [12,36,38,43]. It is important to note that several inconsistencies exist in the research examining the effect of late evening caloric intake and body weight.....
Despite these inconsistencies it is evident that consuming large quantities of food (binge eating) in the late evening may have adverse health implications."
And again, I think being aware of how something affects you, vs. what some studies (but not others) say it may do on average is a much more sensible approach if someone wants to find a sustainable approach for them.
Not to mention that bringing this up when OP was talking about a one time thing is confusing.
I was just coming in to reply to that link, and my opening line was word-for-word what you said! :laugh:
Seriously. Thanks! I find it humorous when people post links to prove others wrong but don't even read them.4 -
cerise_noir wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »SymbolismNZ wrote: »cerise_noir wrote: »No, there isn't. Your body doesn't recognize time, and it certainly doesn't stop digesting when you go to sleep.
I eat sometimes, up to an hour before sleep. It does not interrupt my sleep, or give me any discomfort. I've lost quite a bit of weight and still lose.
I love how people can be so sure of things when research indicates differently.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4425165/
TL;DR? Those that have a large complex meal within two hours before bed suffer irregular sleeping patterns, have higher appetites and such.
She was talking 800 calories, that's a substantial meal.
Did you read the link you cited?
First of all, this: "Similarly, studies in free-living healthy adults have shown that meal satiety also varies with time of day and that food intake during the night is less satiating and leads to greater daily caloric intake compared to food consumed in the morning hours [6,7]." -- if you check the cites -- is referring to one study, and there are a variety of different studies with different results, as others have noted. Even this study would not say not to eat late on one occasion, and says that it seems to be less satiating to have more calories later in the day ON AVERAGE. That doesn't mean it is for all humans, and what we do know is that satiety seems to be individual. Many people here eat the majority of their calories at night because that is easier for them. I eat dinner late (although not the majority of my calories at night, which is what this study is talking about), because (1) my lifestyle requires it, as I would not be able to have dinner otherwise, and (2) I do not struggle with hunger doing so. Indeed, I think eating late makes it easier for me as I am not tempted to snack after dinner ever.
The piece you cited goes on to say:
* "While data from animal studies appear to support this concept [8,9], not all studies concur [10]."
* Shift workers may have messed up body clocks and otherwise have problems. (Not relevant here.)
* Night Eating Syndrome (REGULARLY eating a LARGE PERCENTAGE of calories AFTER DINNER, not relevant here) is associated with obesity IN SOME STUDIES (i.e., not in others). Moreover, even as to those finding connections, "It is unclear, however, as to whether obesity is a consequence or cause of NES."
Further:
"These data from shift workers and NES populations provide some evidence to suggest that consuming the majority of daily nutrients late in the evening may have health consequences. However, this concept cannot be fully understood without considering, the influence of sleep, or lack thereof.....
Indeed, some epidemiological data suggests that consuming a higher proportion of calories later in the day, as opposed to earlier in the day, is associated weight gain [13,14,15,16,17]. However, not all studies agree [12,36,38,43]. It is important to note that several inconsistencies exist in the research examining the effect of late evening caloric intake and body weight.....
Despite these inconsistencies it is evident that consuming large quantities of food (binge eating) in the late evening may have adverse health implications."
And again, I think being aware of how something affects you, vs. what some studies (but not others) say it may do on average is a much more sensible approach if someone wants to find a sustainable approach for them.
Not to mention that bringing this up when OP was talking about a one time thing is confusing.
I was just coming in to reply to that link, and my opening line was word-for-word what you said! :laugh:
Seriously. Thanks! I find it humorous when people post links to prove others wrong but don't even read them.
What I find humorous is when people read things only to see what agrees with them, the old confirmation bias which both of you seem to have done here.
I work in the medical field, so I'm used to reading research papers that point to other experiments that contradict their answer, each person and the things they do is different, therefore expecting the exact same response in every circumstance would be counter productive to the health industry, because you would never normalise treatment plans for common conditions. The whole idea of research such as this is to find out the common impacts and identify what the trends of the empirical evidence suggest.
The trends as this paper indicates (and many other papers indicate) is that night time eating puts you at higher risk of sleeping disorders, appetite disorders and such.
Other papers that conclude with the same findings -
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3499064/ - testing the impact of calories on mice during the night, versus during the day.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27633109 - looking at the impact of food in general on sleeping patterns, including the time at which ingestion of food can impact sleep quality.
Pretty much all of the research around intermittent fasting is based off of similar principles, the impact of calorie intake on sleep and the activation of genes within your system that assist your normal functions.
Will this be the same for every single individual? No; nothing is exactly the same for every single person; but unless you like putting yourself in higher risk brackets, any nutritionist or doctor worth their salt would warn against eating directly before bed.0 -
SymbolismNZ wrote: »cerise_noir wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »SymbolismNZ wrote: »cerise_noir wrote: »No, there isn't. Your body doesn't recognize time, and it certainly doesn't stop digesting when you go to sleep.
I eat sometimes, up to an hour before sleep. It does not interrupt my sleep, or give me any discomfort. I've lost quite a bit of weight and still lose.
I love how people can be so sure of things when research indicates differently.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4425165/
TL;DR? Those that have a large complex meal within two hours before bed suffer irregular sleeping patterns, have higher appetites and such.
She was talking 800 calories, that's a substantial meal.
Did you read the link you cited?
First of all, this: "Similarly, studies in free-living healthy adults have shown that meal satiety also varies with time of day and that food intake during the night is less satiating and leads to greater daily caloric intake compared to food consumed in the morning hours [6,7]." -- if you check the cites -- is referring to one study, and there are a variety of different studies with different results, as others have noted. Even this study would not say not to eat late on one occasion, and says that it seems to be less satiating to have more calories later in the day ON AVERAGE. That doesn't mean it is for all humans, and what we do know is that satiety seems to be individual. Many people here eat the majority of their calories at night because that is easier for them. I eat dinner late (although not the majority of my calories at night, which is what this study is talking about), because (1) my lifestyle requires it, as I would not be able to have dinner otherwise, and (2) I do not struggle with hunger doing so. Indeed, I think eating late makes it easier for me as I am not tempted to snack after dinner ever.
The piece you cited goes on to say:
* "While data from animal studies appear to support this concept [8,9], not all studies concur [10]."
* Shift workers may have messed up body clocks and otherwise have problems. (Not relevant here.)
* Night Eating Syndrome (REGULARLY eating a LARGE PERCENTAGE of calories AFTER DINNER, not relevant here) is associated with obesity IN SOME STUDIES (i.e., not in others). Moreover, even as to those finding connections, "It is unclear, however, as to whether obesity is a consequence or cause of NES."
Further:
"These data from shift workers and NES populations provide some evidence to suggest that consuming the majority of daily nutrients late in the evening may have health consequences. However, this concept cannot be fully understood without considering, the influence of sleep, or lack thereof.....
Indeed, some epidemiological data suggests that consuming a higher proportion of calories later in the day, as opposed to earlier in the day, is associated weight gain [13,14,15,16,17]. However, not all studies agree [12,36,38,43]. It is important to note that several inconsistencies exist in the research examining the effect of late evening caloric intake and body weight.....
Despite these inconsistencies it is evident that consuming large quantities of food (binge eating) in the late evening may have adverse health implications."
And again, I think being aware of how something affects you, vs. what some studies (but not others) say it may do on average is a much more sensible approach if someone wants to find a sustainable approach for them.
Not to mention that bringing this up when OP was talking about a one time thing is confusing.
I was just coming in to reply to that link, and my opening line was word-for-word what you said! :laugh:
Seriously. Thanks! I find it humorous when people post links to prove others wrong but don't even read them.
What I find humorous is when people read things only to see what agrees with them, the old confirmation bias which both of you seem to have done here.
Actually, it's the opposite. Any time someone claims some study is "proof" that you must eat a certain way I know they either don't really understand how this research works or -- often -- are just trying to find something to back up some claim they are clinging to. As the paper in question acknowledges (and as I know from other reading), the studies are all over the place and, significantly, not even everyone in the studies have the same results, at all (which many who quote them do not seem to understand). There may be a statistically significant result (which is often smaller than people realize) that leads to more research, but it certainly does not prove what you seemed to think (or at least what you claimed here, whether you thought it or not) -- that someone eating at night would suffer all sorts of bad results. It's less "you are in a really risky category if you do this, might as well not even bother trying to maintain weight" (as you seem to be saying) as opposed to "this might help, might be something worth trying, especially if it wouldn't mess up anything or seems appealing."The trends as this paper indicates (and many other papers indicate) is that night time eating puts you at higher risk of sleeping disorders, appetite disorders and such.
Not really, as pointed out above. They were talking mostly about 2 specific conditions -- NES and night shifts. The latter often messes with circadian rhythm and can make things more difficult, although it's not known why -- quite possibly related to sleep problems. Not relevant to OP or people eating dinner at 9 or whatever. (Also, did you notice that OP was talking about a meal at 5 pm in this actual thread? Your whole thing was off topic.) NES seems to be an issue where a person eats most of their calories at night, but also was connected to a night bingeing syndrome and in some cases night eating. Grouping all of these and assuming it applies to someone, say, IFing and eating most calories in the evening (which many on MFP have done successfully) is a mistake. To say that means someone can't have a regular dinner in the evening (less than half their calories, normally) is not relevant at all. If the issue is sleep disturbance, the fact that some people have it, some don't, and people know whether they do or not is relevant -- saying no one should eat a large meal past 6 or whatever is just ridiculous. Yet this is what you seemed to be citing the study for. The fact is that people have to figure out what is sustainable for them.
Your other cites (referenced in the first one, I believe, but cherry-picked as there are ones that come to alternative conclusions) also don't go to the effect independent of sleep disturbance or staying up in the night sleeping in the day (the mouse study).Pretty much all of the research around intermittent fasting is based off of similar principles, the impact of calorie intake on sleep and the activation of genes within your system that assist your normal functions.
This doesn't really have to do with IF at all, except in that people IFing are the ones most likely to eat most of their calories in the evening, depending on their window.
Also, IF studies are also all over the place and don't at all prove that IFing is superior to other ways of eating, if you have gone on to a new claim.
In any event, although wrong, I don't see how your claims about not eating late have anything to do with OP at all -- she was doing it as a one-time thing in this instance, and this instance it was at 5 pm, which is not considered just before bed in the US. (She also noted that she keeps her log from 6 pm to 5:59 or some such, and you don't know when she normally eats, and if I were her I wouldn't bother consulting you about it anyway.)
As to the claim that no one should eat a late (meaning what? like I said, I get home late) dinner, it's similarly not relevant. The night shift stuff is not, and the NES stuff was specifically about eating lots of calories after dinner (and again related to a lot of different things, including bingeing and night eating and sleep disturbance).
Is it bad to eat in a way that disrupts sleep? Sure. People differ a lot in whether eating before bed disrupts their sleep or how much before bed they need to stop to avoid it.7 -
how many cals do you eat a day is my question? if you eat only 1500 and are 800 short its way different than if you eat 3500 cals a day and are 800 short
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if you really need to get cals avocados are on the high side and good for you and pecans1
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SymbolismNZ wrote: »cerise_noir wrote: »No, there isn't. Your body doesn't recognize time, and it certainly doesn't stop digesting when you go to sleep.
I eat sometimes, up to an hour before sleep. It does not interrupt my sleep, or give me any discomfort. I've lost quite a bit of weight and still lose.
I love how people can be so sure of things when research indicates differently.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4425165/
TL;DR? Those that have a large complex meal within two hours before bed suffer irregular sleeping patterns, have higher appetites and such.
She was talking 800 calories, that's a substantial meal.
I practice IF, with a 5 hour eating window and consume the majority of my calories within an hour or two of going to bed every night.
I weigh 116 pounds and have 24% body fat, which is considered the upper range of lean at my age. I also sleep like a baby.
I don't have the time or the inclination, but if I did, I could go to google scholar and cherry pick studies showing meal timing is irrelevant too. That's the thing with studies. And you're clearly cherry picking.5 -
OP, what you had sounds delicious. I was in your exact situation the other day. I had a MASSIVE amount of popcorn. With butter.2
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Tacklewasher wrote: »jennybearlv wrote: »Then MFP cut me off. Possibly related to the adult protein shake which I just half spilled on my couch. I have zero tolerance for alcohol.
I'm curious what your recipe for this is. I've never thought to "adult" my protein shake.
8 oz milk
25 g Mexican chocolate (Ovaltine works too)
30 g unflavored protein powder
.5 oz peppermint schnapps (More if you aren't a lightweight. Sometimes I use Kahlua or Bailey's)3 -
KatzeDerNacht22 wrote: »Happens to me sometimes, I might eat some nuts, but if there's calories left, then they are left, unless I am so far from my macro count, but if I didn't eat them it's cos I didn't want to and that's fine.
Oh..I just saw you "earned" them to indulge... I don't agree with that, I mean, a bit sure, but 800? For me it's a waste to work so hard just to get it back in, but hey, if you must, I am sure there's plenty of things very high in calories.
I agree with that. I don't go out of my way to exercise so I can have more food. I run a strength program and running program for a total of six workouts a week because I get a great deal of enjoyment out of improving my fitness. As mentioned, snow needs to be shoveled. I'm not about to give up my run day just because it snowed. Plus the city to my amazement actually plowed two sidewalks in my neighborhood. If that doesn't call for a celebratory run I don't know what does. Bonus calories are always awesome when you get them!5 -
Fiber, in 40-100 calorie portions per serving.0
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Wow never have that problem
1200 1300 calories or less is my goal daily1 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »SymbolismNZ wrote: »cerise_noir wrote: »No, there isn't. Your body doesn't recognize time, and it certainly doesn't stop digesting when you go to sleep.
I eat sometimes, up to an hour before sleep. It does not interrupt my sleep, or give me any discomfort. I've lost quite a bit of weight and still lose.
I love how people can be so sure of things when research indicates differently.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4425165/
TL;DR? Those that have a large complex meal within two hours before bed suffer irregular sleeping patterns, have higher appetites and such.
She was talking 800 calories, that's a substantial meal.
Did you read the link you cited?
First of all, this: "Similarly, studies in free-living healthy adults have shown that meal satiety also varies with time of day and that food intake during the night is less satiating and leads to greater daily caloric intake compared to food consumed in the morning hours [6,7]." -- if you check the cites -- is referring to one study, and there are a variety of different studies with different results, as others have noted. Even this study would not say not to eat late on one occasion, and says that it seems to be less satiating to have more calories later in the day ON AVERAGE. That doesn't mean it is for all humans, and what we do know is that satiety seems to be individual. Many people here eat the majority of their calories at night because that is easier for them. I eat dinner late (although not the majority of my calories at night, which is what this study is talking about), because (1) my lifestyle requires it, as I would not be able to have dinner otherwise, and (2) I do not struggle with hunger doing so. Indeed, I think eating late makes it easier for me as I am not tempted to snack after dinner ever.
The piece you cited goes on to say:
* "While data from animal studies appear to support this concept [8,9], not all studies concur [10]."
* Shift workers may have messed up body clocks and otherwise have problems. (Not relevant here.)
* Night Eating Syndrome (REGULARLY eating a LARGE PERCENTAGE of calories AFTER DINNER, not relevant here) is associated with obesity IN SOME STUDIES (i.e., not in others). Moreover, even as to those finding connections, "It is unclear, however, as to whether obesity is a consequence or cause of NES."
Further:
"These data from shift workers and NES populations provide some evidence to suggest that consuming the majority of daily nutrients late in the evening may have health consequences. However, this concept cannot be fully understood without considering, the influence of sleep, or lack thereof.....
Indeed, some epidemiological data suggests that consuming a higher proportion of calories later in the day, as opposed to earlier in the day, is associated weight gain [13,14,15,16,17]. However, not all studies agree [12,36,38,43]. It is important to note that several inconsistencies exist in the research examining the effect of late evening caloric intake and body weight.....
Despite these inconsistencies it is evident that consuming large quantities of food (binge eating) in the late evening may have adverse health implications."
And again, I think being aware of how something affects you, vs. what some studies (but not others) say it may do on average is a much more sensible approach if someone wants to find a sustainable approach for them.
Not to mention that bringing this up when OP was talking about a one time thing is confusing.
this was also in the study...
While this may hold true when large quantities of food intake occurs at night, data is beginning to mount to suggest that this finding is not consistent if the food choice is altered to favor small, nutrient-dense, low energy foods and/or single macronutrients (<200 kcals) [45,46,47,48,49,50]. In fact, recent studies have examined the impact of low-energy nutrient intake that occurs in close proximity to sleep and <b>reported positive findings</b> [45,46,47,48,49,50]. Conversely, one study [51] compared the impact of a 200 calorie snack (carbohydrate, 20.6 ± 2.6 g; protein, 2.6 ± 1.1 g; fat 11.0 ± 1.0 g) consumed in the daytime (1000 h) or nighttime (2300 h) for 13 days in healthy, normal weight women (n = 11, age, 23 ± 1 years, BMI 20.6 ± 2.6 kg/m2). It was reported that despite no difference in nutrient composition or calorie intake for each 13 day period, the nighttime eating resulted in small decreases in 24 h fat oxidation and small increases in total cholesterol [51]. The short duration of this study does not allow for conclusions to be drawn with regard to body composition changes, however, body weight was unchanged.1 -
Yummy! I've always been a terrible midnight snacker so i hope i have some leftover calories at the end of the day0
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SymbolismNZ wrote: »cerise_noir wrote: »No, there isn't. Your body doesn't recognize time, and it certainly doesn't stop digesting when you go to sleep.
I eat sometimes, up to an hour before sleep. It does not interrupt my sleep, or give me any discomfort. I've lost quite a bit of weight and still lose.
I love how people can be so sure of things when research indicates differently.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4425165/
TL;DR? Those that have a large complex meal within two hours before bed suffer irregular sleeping patterns, have higher appetites and such.
She was talking 800 calories, that's a substantial meal.
Greater weight loss and hormonal changes after 6 months diet with carbohydrates eaten mostly at dinner.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21475137
And here you'll see that night-time eaters tend to eat greater total calories and fewer nutrient dense foods, which is a pretty important distinction to make if you're going to assume late night eating is problematic. It may only be problematic if it causes people to eat too much.
I would certainly agree that it's problematic IF it causes sleep disturbances but for many people the opposite is true.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1038/oby.2011.100/full
Also:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3508745
And - better preservation of FFM in the night-time eating group. This is desirable in most people:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9040548
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I just want to say how grossed out I am by people who keep suggesting peanut butter by itself. I usually can't even stand it on a sandwich. lol. Yuck. I vote a giant bag of chips, pizza or a pint of ice cream for times like this.3
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PB milkshake2
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GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »I don't have the time or the inclination, but if I did, I could go to google scholar and cherry pick studies showing meal timing is irrelevant too. That's the thing with studies. And you're clearly cherry picking.
If you're looking at things solely from a calorie in, calorie out ideal then I'm sure, you could find tons of literature. If you're looking at things from a wellness/sleep perspective, I'm not so sure.
What I base a lot of my "cherry picking" from is actually looking into research scientists and their own philosophies, opinions and actions around food. Someone like Rhonda Patrick who has spent 15-18 years studying the impact of nutrition on genes, cellular growth, neurology, physiology who openly advocates certain opinions will interest me, because here is someone who makes her living researching biomedical nutritional science and chooses particular supplements, a particular way of eating, a particular schedule for eating, particular workout types, particular body experience (sauna, etc) based on that research.lemurcat12 wrote: »Actually, it's the opposite. Any time someone claims some study is "proof" that you must eat a certain way I know they either don't really understand how this research works or -- often -- are just trying to find something to back up some claim they are clinging to.
You'll see the difference in the way I address research in stating "putting you at higher risk" rather than "absolutely destroying your sleep cycle". I don't really "cling" to anything, what I do is read opinions + research. I also look for contradictions and confirmations of research papers too, when most contradictions come from blogs, muscle builder websites and fitness magazines and most confirmations come from research papers, I put two and two together.
I've included further research articles (some of which referenced within the original paper) that again point out the risks of a heavy meal before bedtime and risk it has of impacting your sleeping cycle.
Again, we're all different, we all respond and react differently to different stimulus, why were some people that were exposed to radiation during nuclear testing exhibiting no symptoms versus those that did? Why can some people moderately consume alcohol and psychoactive drugs but some people can't?
The health sector works on the basis of risk factors, not absolutes.0 -
My vote would be for peanut butter and chocolate milkshake with oreos. Or peanut butter and oreos milkshake. 10/10 good stuff and also far too many calories to have normally.3
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SymbolismNZ wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »I don't have the time or the inclination, but if I did, I could go to google scholar and cherry pick studies showing meal timing is irrelevant too. That's the thing with studies. And you're clearly cherry picking.
If you're looking at things solely from a calorie in, calorie out ideal then I'm sure, you could find tons of literature. If you're looking at things from a wellness/sleep perspective, I'm not so sure.
What I base a lot of my "cherry picking" from is actually looking into research scientists and their own philosophies, opinions and actions around food. Someone like Rhonda Patrick who has spent 15-18 years studying the impact of nutrition on genes, cellular growth, neurology, physiology who openly advocates certain opinions will interest me, because here is someone who makes her living researching biomedical nutritional science and chooses particular supplements, a particular way of eating, a particular schedule for eating, particular workout types, particular body experience (sauna, etc) based on that research.lemurcat12 wrote: »Actually, it's the opposite. Any time someone claims some study is "proof" that you must eat a certain way I know they either don't really understand how this research works or -- often -- are just trying to find something to back up some claim they are clinging to.
You'll see the difference in the way I address research in stating "putting you at higher risk" rather than "absolutely destroying your sleep cycle". I don't really "cling" to anything, what I do is read opinions + research. I also look for contradictions and confirmations of research papers too, when most contradictions come from blogs, muscle builder websites and fitness magazines and most confirmations come from research papers, I put two and two together.
I've included further research articles (some of which referenced within the original paper) that again point out the risks of a heavy meal before bedtime and risk it has of impacting your sleeping cycle.
Again, we're all different, we all respond and react differently to different stimulus, why were some people that were exposed to radiation during nuclear testing exhibiting no symptoms versus those that did? Why can some people moderately consume alcohol and psychoactive drugs but some people can't?
The health sector works on the basis of risk factors, not absolutes.
What has she, herself published and researched on the matter? Where are her studies?
I won't even get into the dubious nature of how one goes about fashioning one's life according to living solely by avoiding risk factors, considering almost everything is considered a risk factor for something or another if you look hard enough for a study.
Are you also considering context and dosage in assessing these risk factors?
Do you have any research Dr. Patrick has done to refute anything SideSteel posted?1 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »What has she, herself published and researched on the matter? Where are her studies?
Do you have any research Dr. Patrick has done to refute anything SideSteel posted?
Journal wise, her own research topics haven't covered the impact of day/night cycle on food as she's primarily focused on the impact of food groups on our neurological and physiological states.... however, being that she's an active podcaster she often references other peoples work and in particular has talked about the importance of meal windows (i.e IF) as it relates to sleep.
Transcript below from one such example where she talks about circadian rhythm, how it can impact your sleep cycle, how your body has specific "times" for different metabolising functions, how our microbiologies follow a circadian clock, etcetera.
http://podcastnotes.org/2016/07/11/time-restricted-feeding-and-its-effects-on-obesity-muscle-mass-heart-health/
Keypoints
How food regulates our tissues
Internal clocks are like traffic lights: without the right timing, it creates accidents and traffic jams.
There’s a specific time for every metabolic activity.
If not properly adjusted:
There’s build up of undesired by-products.
It puts stress on our cells.
It can lead to many chronic diseases.
Our organ’s clocks respond to when we eat.
The act of eating turns on the genes responsible for digestion.
Light has little impact in that case.
The principle behind time-restricting feeding
The idea is to restrict your eating into a certain period of time, usually being12h.
Mice that don’t have a circadian clock have greater chances of developing a metabolic disorder such as:
Obesity
Cardiovascular diseases
Diabetes
Cancer
High fat diet and high sugar diet were tested with time-restriction.
Did not matter WHAT or HOW MUCH you eat but WHEN you eat is crucial.
Mice ate the same food but the ones on time-restriction had 28% less body mass and 70% less fat.
Time restricting has a huge impact on our body.
Nutrition or quality of food still matters.
The program increased lean mass.
This can be caused by an increase in Nicotimamide Ribose, which creates more NAD.
More NAD gives more ATP.
ATP, being the main energy source of our body, boosts our energy level.
Restricting in an 8h to 9h period is even more beneficial.
It increases endurance.
An increase in brown fat tissue was noted.
There’s also an increase in mitochondria activity.
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So, that's all from mouse studies? Which are pretty much supposed to be just preliminary research, right?
Can you respond to SideSteel's post?1 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »So, that's all from mouse studies? Which are pretty much supposed to be just preliminary research, right?
No, she again references human studies, and studies of other species that all corroborate the evidence gained within trials with mice.
Also, you can't really write mice trials off as "preliminary research" being that the bulk of advancements we've made in cancer protein therapy, the viability of stem cells to treat trauma, the impact of nutrition on our hearts and guts and the impact of nutrition/pharmaceuticals on our neural pathways all come from mice studies.
They share many similarities with us in terms of their cardiomyopathy, neurology and cell damage/growth/mutation0 -
And here you'll see that night-time eaters tend to eat greater total calories and fewer nutrient dense foods, which is a pretty important distinction to make if you're going to assume late night eating is problematic. It may only be problematic if it causes people to eat too much.
I would certainly agree that it's problematic IF it causes sleep disturbances but for many people the opposite is true.
Greater weight loss and hormonal changes after 6 months diet with carbohydrates eaten mostly at dinner.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21475137
Interesting study; it deals a little less with "when" calories in general are consumed, and a little more with consumption/distribution of carbohydrates. It seems to corroborate what Mark Sisson suggests, that getting the benefits of your body producing ketones is entirely plausible even if you're not on a low carbohydrate diet, so long as you're giving your body a significant enough window each day to burn the glycogen.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1038/oby.2011.100/full
As part of the abstract, this paper firmly states "These findings indicate that caloric intake after 8:00 pm may increase the risk of obesity, independent of sleep timing and duration. Future studies should investigate the biological and social mechanisms linking timing of sleep and feeding in order to develop novel time-based interventions for weight management." which again corroborates the idea that our bodies follow a circadian rhythm and that eating later at night has impacts on your ability to digest the food.
And - better preservation of FFM in the night-time eating group. This is desirable in most people:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9040548
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3508745
These two studies only really looks at weight loss, as I've stated a couple of times, weight loss is only part of the equation in my view, you can be losing weight while entirely screwing with your physiological and neurological mechanics, I'm a great example when I went on a VLCD while training to run a half marathon. Did I lose weight? *kitten* tons, Did that come with longer term health impacts? Absolutely.
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SymbolismNZ wrote: »And here you'll see that night-time eaters tend to eat greater total calories and fewer nutrient dense foods, which is a pretty important distinction to make if you're going to assume late night eating is problematic. It may only be problematic if it causes people to eat too much.
I would certainly agree that it's problematic IF it causes sleep disturbances but for many people the opposite is true.
Greater weight loss and hormonal changes after 6 months diet with carbohydrates eaten mostly at dinner.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21475137
Interesting study; it deals a little less with "when" calories in general are consumed, and a little more with consumption/distribution of carbohydrates. It seems to corroborate what Mark Sisson suggests, that getting the benefits of your body producing ketones is entirely plausible even if you're not on a low carbohydrate diet, so long as you're giving your body a significant enough window each day to burn the glycogen.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1038/oby.2011.100/full
As part of the abstract, this paper firmly states "These findings indicate that caloric intake after 8:00 pm may increase the risk of obesity, independent of sleep timing and duration. Future studies should investigate the biological and social mechanisms linking timing of sleep and feeding in order to develop novel time-based interventions for weight management." which again corroborates the idea that our bodies follow a circadian rhythm and that eating later at night has impacts on your ability to digest the food.
And - better preservation of FFM in the night-time eating group. This is desirable in most people:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9040548
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3508745
These two studies only really looks at weight loss, as I've stated a couple of times, weight loss is only part of the equation in my view, you can be losing weight while entirely screwing with your physiological and neurological mechanics, I'm a great example when I went on a VLCD while training to run a half marathon. Did I lose weight? *kitten* tons, Did that come with longer term health impacts? Absolutely.
The point of me posting the second study was to illustrate an association between nighttime eating and a tendency to eat more total calories.
At any rate, I'm not convinced that the temporal placement of food relative someone's sleep cycle is important provided that they are able to adhere to a reasonable diet and get adequate sleep.
If meal timing has a negative outcome on those then I'd certainly address it.
additionally, if you can't lose weight and you are obese we know really damn well that this increases the risk for negative health outcomes and so the priority should be weight loss under this condition.
This is precisely why I would absolutely recommend whichever meal timing maximizes adherence to a hypocaloric diet. Because successfully losing weight is overwhelmingly likely to improve the quality of life and reduce health risks in obese people and this is hardly disputable.
I dont think evidence on long term health effects of a given meal timing is nearly as robust or convincing.
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MaddMaestro wrote: »jennybearlv wrote: »You guys are no fun. It's not often I get an extra 800 calories to indulge on.
No! You shouldn't be thinking like that. Be proud that you worked hard to burn off the calories you already have. They're not "earned" calories.
The hell they're not.
This is the most accurate statement ever.1 -
Mmmm Buffalo Wild Wings Nachos...half an order of those would be my dream for 800calories lol1
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Verity1111 wrote: »I just want to say how grossed out I am by people who keep suggesting peanut butter by itself. I usually can't even stand it on a sandwich. lol. Yuck. I vote a giant bag of chips, pizza or a pint of ice cream for times like this.
Right? How does anyone eat straight peanut butter? If I go overboard with the PB on bread I feel as though I'll never be able to chew it, like I'm slowly drowning in peanut butter sandwich. I do need to have a pizza night very soon. I've had pizza every week since I've began tracking.0
.. 
This discussion has been closed.
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