The whoosh theory: true or false?
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ladyreva78 wrote: »I'm in a squishy fat phase (and have been for a good few weeks). I HATE the squishy fat phases... I have the impression I look like a marshmallow right now...
I don't care what the mechanics of it are. But I'm seriously looking forward for the whoosh and the nice feeling of NOT being squishy that comes with it.
Well, I hope you get the "whoosh" but I didn't.
I went into the squishy fat/marshmallow phase and stayed there for several months. During that time, I was steadily losing about 1 kg/week for the first couple months, and then I slowed my weight loss down to about 0.6 kg/week for the next few months.
It really wasn't until I neared my goal and started weight lifting more that I slowly began to tone up or something and the marshmallow feel started to go away.
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It happens to me on a regular basis. I see the numbers on the scale drop quickly over a short time about once a month or so. Then about a pound of that weight will come back, until next month. Averaged out, I'm losing about at the rate expected given my calorie deficit. I wish there was some science backing this all up, but I've never seen any studies on what's causing it to happen. I suppose it could be menstrual cycle related for many people, but I haven't had those in several years (thanks, IUD!).3
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Where is this squishy fat that you all are discussing?6
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On My Fitness Pal, I lost an average of .73 pounds per week for a total of 110 pounds lost.
No "whoosh"...and maybe it's just "whooshful" thinking on your part.
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I don't get the squishy fat Lyle talks about. I get "melty" fat though. Looks like I'm a freaking melting candle. It's horrible.3
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Where is this squishy fat that you all are discussing?
All over.
It's like I put on a marshmallow suit. I had lost about 12 kg and suddenly my arms, legs torso and everywhere went all soft and mushy.
It was actually quite a disappointing time for me, and as I mentioned, went on for months while I continued to lose weight. Here I was losing weight and able to do more ... and when I wore long skirts or pants and long sleeved tops, I looked slim and trim. But underneath it was all squishy and droopy and saggy and mushy like loose marshmallow or like when you're kneading dough. To me, it looked awful. I even changed clothes in the dark because I didn't want to look at myself.3 -
All cells contain water. That's a scientific fact.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK9879/1 -
Soooo…. basically there is no science to back up this theory, but there is no alternate theory for why weight loss is not linear even in the presence of a consistent deficit.
Not so. There are a number of things that can cause weight loss to be nonlinear that have significant scientific backing. Damaged muscles hold fluid. Once muscles repair themselves the fluid goes away and can appear to be a sudden drop in weight. Glycogen holds more than its own weight in water, so a drop in glycogen can result in a significant nonlinear drop in weight. When constipated, food solids begin to back up in the system. Once the constipation goes away and things start flowing again, a significant nonlinear drop in weight will be seen. Higher amounts of sodium can cause water retention and a reduction in sodium or an increase in potassium can result in a drop in water. The "whoosh" is explainable, but the fat cells replacing the fat with water is fantasy.2 -
TimothyFish wrote: »Soooo…. basically there is no science to back up this theory, but there is no alternate theory for why weight loss is not linear even in the presence of a consistent deficit.
Not so. There are a number of things that can cause weight loss to be nonlinear that have significant scientific backing. Damaged muscles hold fluid. Once muscles repair themselves the fluid goes away and can appear to be a sudden drop in weight. Glycogen holds more than its own weight in water, so a drop in glycogen can result in a significant nonlinear drop in weight. When constipated, food solids begin to back up in the system. Once the constipation goes away and things start flowing again, a significant nonlinear drop in weight will be seen. Higher amounts of sodium can cause water retention and a reduction in sodium or an increase in potassium can result in a drop in water. The "whoosh" is explainable, but the fat cells replacing the fat with water is fantasy.
Yes ... I've experienced all/most of those things. And also ... in hot weather, and especially if we get a sunburn in the hot weather, the body will retain water for a few days until the brightness of the sunburn subsides and/or the weather cools off. And also ... flying, for some reason, causes people to retain water.
And then ... approx. 3 days after a big workout resulting in damaged muscles, or a meal of very salty food, or a bit too much sun on a hot day, or a flight to the mainland and back ... I wear a path in the carpet to the toilet all day long, and the next day, I've dropped the 1.5 kg I gained. Like clockwork.
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All cells contain water. That's a scientific fact.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK9879/
All cells contain water, but in a fat cell the location where fat is stored and where the water is located are distinct. There is a special reservoir in which fat is stored in the cell. This reservoir doesn't fill with water when the fat is released and if the rest of the cell took on as much water as the capacity of the fat reservoir then the cell would die due to too much water.2 -
Where is this squishy fat that you all are discussing?
I get it on my butt, stomach, arms, anywhere I have a large chunk of fat. It gets a little saggy looking too. Then one day I get out of bed, look in the mirror, and everything is back where it should be and a little firmer feeling. It doesn't seem to be associated with any whooshes with me though.0 -
Where is this squishy fat that you all are discussing?
Currently... arms, stomach, *kitten* and thighs. The one on my back thankfully took a hike.Where is this squishy fat that you all are discussing?
All over.
It's like I put on a marshmallow suit. I had lost about 12 kg and suddenly my arms, legs torso and everywhere went all soft and mushy.
It was actually quite a disappointing time for me, and as I mentioned, went on for months while I continued to lose weight. Here I was losing weight and able to do more ... and when I wore long skirts or pants and long sleeved tops, I looked slim and trim. But underneath it was all squishy and droopy and saggy and mushy like loose marshmallow or like when you're kneading dough. To me, it looked awful. I even changed clothes in the dark because I didn't want to look at myself.
I have to admit I laughed the first time I read your description of it (was a while back). Now that I find myself in that situation... it sucks and I sincerely apologize for having laughed.
A friend at work commented on how awesome I look (wearing tight jeans and tight undershirt and a lovely flowing blouse over). Told her to look again when I'm changing into my gym outfit. She was horrified. Marshmallow suit really is the best description of it.
Thankfully there's people like you posting about your experience. It gives me hope that I just have to trucker through. I have another 12kg until I reach upper range of healthy BMI. I do hope I won't do the marshmallow until then... Cause the worst part is, I'm still losing, not as steadily as I'd like but losing nonetheless, meaning I probably can't really expect a whoosh...
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No scientific stuff from me. i notice that some fat, say on my stomach will all of a sudden get squishy, then the next week it is gone. Like jello ..then it melts or goes aways.0
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Soooo…. basically there is no science to back up this theory, but there is no alternate theory for why weight loss is not linear even in the presence of a consistent deficit.
Yes there is. Fat loss is (more or less) linear with a consistent deficit, but water retention is continually varying for all sorts of reasons, and that wiggle, overlaid on the steady fat loss, looks like stalls and whooshes. This completely explains the phenomenon. What is it that you think is unexplained?2 -
jennybearlv wrote: »Where is this squishy fat that you all are discussing?
I get it on my butt, stomach, arms, anywhere I have a large chunk of fat. It gets a little saggy looking too. Then one day I get out of bed, look in the mirror, and everything is back where it should be and a little firmer feeling. It doesn't seem to be associated with any whooshes with me though.
I'm not sure why people think the "squishy fat" has anything to do with whooshes. Squishy fat is actually due to the fat in an area of the body deflating more quickly than the skin over it can adjust. This does typically happen where there are large chucks of fat. Once the skin tightens it goes back to normal.3 -
elisa123gal wrote: »No scientific stuff from me. i notice that some fat, say on my stomach will all of a sudden get squishy, then the next week it is gone. Like jello ..then it melts or goes aways.
Well it's been 2.5 years and I'm still waiting for some of that to go away
Seriously though, all my fat is squishy - even worse where I have loose skin. But even at 213 lbs I never had 'hard' fat (while my husband's belly is hard as a rock). 3 -
CattOfTheGarage wrote: »Soooo…. basically there is no science to back up this theory, but there is no alternate theory for why weight loss is not linear even in the presence of a consistent deficit.
Yes there is. Fat loss is (more or less) linear with a consistent deficit, but water retention is continually varying for all sorts of reasons, and that wiggle, overlaid on the steady fat loss, looks like stalls and whooshes. This completely explains the phenomenon. What is it that you think is unexplained?
Just a little clarification - I said weight loss, not fat loss.
But I suppose what I mean is that though obviously there are reasons for fat loss being masked, it is not always clear what specific reason(s) is/are occurring at a given moment.
Also, for some people, it's enough to know that stalls and drops happen without understanding why, and some people want an explanation, and some people want an explanation of the explanation. I often fall into that last category.
I don't expect that other people have the same level of curiosity that I do but, it annoys me to not know the actual mechanisms. Even if I knew that I was stalling for a particular reason, curiosity would make make me want to know how that works. For example, HOW do muscles hold on to fluid - in the cells? between the cells? and how. and why. and HOW do carbohydrates cause water retention? When we speak of being "bloated" pre-menstrually, we're not only talking about the uterus, so how are cells holding onto water and and what specific mechanisms cause them to do this and then release. Hormones, right. But that answer is incomplete.
I'm pretty sure I need to read actual books for these answers, but that would be far less fun than bantering on the Internet.
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ladyreva78 wrote: »Where is this squishy fat that you all are discussing?
Currently... arms, stomach, *kitten* and thighs. The one on my back thankfully took a hike.Where is this squishy fat that you all are discussing?
All over.
It's like I put on a marshmallow suit. I had lost about 12 kg and suddenly my arms, legs torso and everywhere went all soft and mushy.
It was actually quite a disappointing time for me, and as I mentioned, went on for months while I continued to lose weight. Here I was losing weight and able to do more ... and when I wore long skirts or pants and long sleeved tops, I looked slim and trim. But underneath it was all squishy and droopy and saggy and mushy like loose marshmallow or like when you're kneading dough. To me, it looked awful. I even changed clothes in the dark because I didn't want to look at myself.
I have to admit I laughed the first time I read your description of it (was a while back). Now that I find myself in that situation... it sucks and I sincerely apologize for having laughed.
A friend at work commented on how awesome I look (wearing tight jeans and tight undershirt and a lovely flowing blouse over). Told her to look again when I'm changing into my gym outfit. She was horrified. Marshmallow suit really is the best description of it.
Thankfully there's people like you posting about your experience. It gives me hope that I just have to trucker through. I have another 12kg until I reach upper range of healthy BMI. I do hope I won't do the marshmallow until then... Cause the worst part is, I'm still losing, not as steadily as I'd like but losing nonetheless, meaning I probably can't really expect a whoosh...
Yeah ... unfortunately, that's exactly it. I'm sorry you're going through it. And it is a letdown. At one point I told my husband I was considering gaining the weight back so that I would fill out again because a filled in me looked better than the marshmallow me.
Happily, however, it does get better.
Things do tighten up eventually. My legs are tight and muscular now and the rest of me is better, not really good yet, but better. Exercise does help ... and probably just time. 1 -
On slightly the same topic, when the fat cells are empty, do they shrink, or do they stay empty until they are replaced by a smaller cell? I have this image in my head of a fat cell being stretched out when at full capacity.0
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CattOfTheGarage wrote: »Soooo…. basically there is no science to back up this theory, but there is no alternate theory for why weight loss is not linear even in the presence of a consistent deficit.
Yes there is. Fat loss is (more or less) linear with a consistent deficit, but water retention is continually varying for all sorts of reasons, and that wiggle, overlaid on the steady fat loss, looks like stalls and whooshes. This completely explains the phenomenon. What is it that you think is unexplained?
Just a little clarification - I said weight loss, not fat loss.
But I suppose what I mean is that though obviously there are reasons for fat loss being masked, it is not always clear what specific reason(s) is/are occurring at a given moment.
Also, for some people, it's enough to know that stalls and drops happen without understanding why, and some people want an explanation, and some people want an explanation of the explanation. I often fall into that last category.
I don't expect that other people have the same level of curiosity that I do but, it annoys me to not know the actual mechanisms. Even if I knew that I was stalling for a particular reason, curiosity would make make me want to know how that works. For example, HOW do muscles hold on to fluid - in the cells? between the cells? and how. and why. and HOW do carbohydrates cause water retention? When we speak of being "bloated" pre-menstrually, we're not only talking about the uterus, so how are cells holding onto water and and what specific mechanisms cause them to do this and then release. Hormones, right. But that answer is incomplete.
I'm pretty sure I need to read actual books for these answers, but that would be far less fun than bantering on the Internet.
I'd love a concise answer to this one myself. Glycogen stores in the muscle and liver I get. However, seriously wtf with the subcutaneous water that's usually called carb bloat, or softness.0 -
CattOfTheGarage wrote: »Soooo…. basically there is no science to back up this theory, but there is no alternate theory for why weight loss is not linear even in the presence of a consistent deficit.
Yes there is. Fat loss is (more or less) linear with a consistent deficit, but water retention is continually varying for all sorts of reasons, and that wiggle, overlaid on the steady fat loss, looks like stalls and whooshes. This completely explains the phenomenon. What is it that you think is unexplained?
Just a little clarification - I said weight loss, not fat loss.
But I suppose what I mean is that though obviously there are reasons for fat loss being masked, it is not always clear what specific reason(s) is/are occurring at a given moment.
Also, for some people, it's enough to know that stalls and drops happen without understanding why, and some people want an explanation, and some people want an explanation of the explanation. I often fall into that last category.
I don't expect that other people have the same level of curiosity that I do but, it annoys me to not know the actual mechanisms. Even if I knew that I was stalling for a particular reason, curiosity would make make me want to know how that works. For example, HOW do muscles hold on to fluid - in the cells? between the cells? and how. and why. and HOW do carbohydrates cause water retention? When we speak of being "bloated" pre-menstrually, we're not only talking about the uterus, so how are cells holding onto water and and what specific mechanisms cause them to do this and then release. Hormones, right. But that answer is incomplete.
I'm pretty sure I need to read actual books for these answers, but that would be far less fun than bantering on the Internet.
It's not that the mechanisms aren't understood - they are, by those that specialise in all the various different aspects of anatomy - it's that they're too complicated to keep track of accurately. We can say that in general water retention can be increased by eating more salt or doing more exercise or injuring yourself, but In order to answer the very specific question of "why do I weigh 2lb more this morning than yesterday?", you would have to have really accurate data about what state each body system was in and had been in for some time. We don't have that data.
It's like the weather. There's a whole science dedicated to understanding all the factors that contribute to rain or snow or wind and we know the mechanisms behind all these things, in general, but if you were to ask specifically "why did it rain today?" it would be almost impossible to answer. It's incredibly complicated, there are a lot of factors, and we don't have enough data.
Sure it's interesting to learn more about these systems, but that knowledge is unlikely to ever get you to the point that you can completely explain and predict your own specific weight fluctuations. It's not because the science isn't there, it's because the system is so complicated and the degree of analysis you would need in order to answer those questions in one specific situation is just not worth the effort.
Fwiw, my understating is that extra water is held in all your cells and lost from all of them fairly evenly - there is no question of it being held in a specific area. Your body is basically made of water, so a few pounds difference in water weight is just a slight adjustment in the "wetness" of the whole system, not a big movement of water from one particular part. You do get localised swelling in the case of injury or muscle repair, but that is a special case.1 -
rileysowner wrote: »
I've read that article a dozen times over the years. As far as I can tell nobody here on MFP, the group I asked the question of, wrote it. I'm asking for personal experiences.
Thanks to all who have answered my question.0 -
On slightly the same topic, when the fat cells are empty, do they shrink, or do they stay empty until they are replaced by a smaller cell? I have this image in my head of a fat cell being stretched out when at full capacity.
Everything I have seen indicates they are more like a beach ball. When they are empty they lay flat rather than shrink.0 -
TimothyFish wrote: »On slightly the same topic, when the fat cells are empty, do they shrink, or do they stay empty until they are replaced by a smaller cell? I have this image in my head of a fat cell being stretched out when at full capacity.
Everything I have seen indicates they are more like a beach ball. When they are empty they lay flat rather than shrink.
That's what I thought. Boo!0 -
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rileysowner wrote: »
I've read that article a dozen times over the years. As far as I can tell nobody here on MFP, the group I asked the question of, wrote it. I'm asking for personal experiences.
Thanks to all who have answered my question.
I asked because I find he gives a reasonable description of squishy fat. I, have never had squishy fat as it is described in the article, and have never had whooshes as described in the article. There may be various reasons for that since it is clearly related to water retention of some sort and for my blood pressure I am on a diuretic which may influence it. I am thinking if you have not had it at this point, you probably are not one of those people who get squishy fat.0 -
Thank you for this post. I was just getting ready to post something about this and now here are all these wonderful validating comments.
This is my 4th weight loss go of it, I am 54, and the prior three were during recoveries from surgeries, or during body hurts that would result in surgery (my latest was hip replacement on May 23rd). So this latest start on Dec 26 2016 (so far) has involved no other injuries and my hip is handling the workouts. So my data for the first time consists of pm (before bed) weigh in's, am weigh in's (daily) and I have been able to lift weights 3 times a week, and do cardio (treadmill) almost every day, and I finally bought a scale to weigh food when starting this, so my data is as tight as I can get it.
I am finding what you all say to be absolutely true, that weight loss IS NOT linear. Which is frustrating. Then after 6 days of stable weight, after having added a little over a pound which was VERY frustrating, I experienced this whoosh. I have done nothing different but have lost 3.2 pounds in 3 days. I plot my daily weight on real graph paper and have seen this effect happen two other times, but not this dramatically.
So yes, I am a believer in the whoosh. It just seems logical that we can't consistently lose weight, and in a way the body readjusts and stalls out while we faithfully keep doing our thing despite the plateau, then are rewarded in chunks of weight loss, as long as we did not get frustrated and stop in the face of disappointment (speaking from past experience).
I don't know if this is really true or not, but it also seems to me (at least for me) that mixing up the diet helps too. I just think my body gets to used to the same foods (I tend to eat the same things for each meal) so whether this is true or false, once a week I like to completely change up my breakfast lunch and dinner on one day. Anyway, it works for me. It is not a cheat day, but kind of feels this way like a reward.
Thanks for a great post and for great comments!2 -
rileysowner wrote: »rileysowner wrote: »
I've read that article a dozen times over the years. As far as I can tell nobody here on MFP, the group I asked the question of, wrote it. I'm asking for personal experiences.
Thanks to all who have answered my question.
I asked because I find he gives a reasonable description of squishy fat. I, have never had squishy fat as it is described in the article, and have never had whooshes as described in the article. There may be various reasons for that since it is clearly related to water retention of some sort and for my blood pressure I am on a diuretic which may influence it. I am thinking if you have not had it at this point, you probably are not one of those people who get squishy fat.
Lyle is not a MFP member heh. Most of his stuff is backed heavily by research, the whole stall/whoosh thing came from him observing clients.
Fish, I think he postulates not so much that water is "replaced" in cells, but rather the glycerol backbone gets used and water left behind. Which is why people suddenly tend to both get smaller and drop all the fluid at once (once the water is released the cells).2 -
rileysowner wrote: »rileysowner wrote: »
I've read that article a dozen times over the years. As far as I can tell nobody here on MFP, the group I asked the question of, wrote it. I'm asking for personal experiences.
Thanks to all who have answered my question.
I asked because I find he gives a reasonable description of squishy fat. I, have never had squishy fat as it is described in the article, and have never had whooshes as described in the article. There may be various reasons for that since it is clearly related to water retention of some sort and for my blood pressure I am on a diuretic which may influence it. I am thinking if you have not had it at this point, you probably are not one of those people who get squishy fat.
Lyle is not a MFP member heh. Most of his stuff is backed heavily by research, the whole stall/whoosh thing came from him observing clients.
Sigh.
I know he's not an MFP member. I was pointing out that I was asking for the personal experiences of MFP members, not Lyle McDonald's observations.
Moving on... I have a ton of squishiness in my abdominal area but it's not squishy fat as described by others. It's just subcutaneous fat lining stretched out skin. None of the rest of me is squishy like that.1
This discussion has been closed.
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