The whoosh theory: true or false?
Replies
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TimothyFish wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »TimothyFish wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »TimothyFish wrote: »Tacklewasher wrote: »So, where is the water held? I know some is retained in muscles if they are in need of repair, but otherwise where is it held and how does sodium change that?
Just curious. I've had wooshes and I know sodium adds weight.
The fluid that is retained in muscles after exercise is due to capillaries leaking. The strain of exercise creates tiny breaks in them, allowing fluids to leak into the surrounding tissue. This fluid serves as a quick temporary fix for the damage while the normal tissue cells go about the process of replicating themselves to make the permanent fix.
Sodium is the electrolyte that is responsible for pulling water into cells. When you eat a lot of sodium the cells that absorb the sodium will tend to retain water until potassium releases it. This is why people with high blood pressure are encouraged to limit their sodium intake. Sodium in the blood cells causes them to hold more water and it makes blood thicker. But this is something that happens throughout the body, it isn't a special characteristic of fat cells and it isn't a result of the fat cell releasing fat.
That's not exactly how it works. Capillary leakage (pulmonary hemorrhage or edema) is a problem which, so far as we know, only occurs in some individuals during/after extreme exercise and is not normal, healthy function. The capillaries are designed to be extremely thin-walled, yet extremely strong so that this doesn't happen.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16737343
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4969033/
As far as I can tell, you are the only one who has even suggested that the fluid we are talking about is water in the lungs.
I'm not suggesting that at all. We're talking about the "whoosh effect" which is the theory that emptying fat cells retain water for some time before releasing it later, resulting in a "whoosh" of weight loss.
The link refers to fluid in the lungs because that's an effect of capillary leakage which you wrongly claimed is a normal part of exercise.
No, you are misunderstanding the articles that you linked to. Capillary leakage is the cause of pulmonary edema, but the article is making the claim that this doesn't happen during exercise except in extreme cases. In other words, it takes some very heavy breathing for pulmonary edema to occur during exercise. But you want to make the claim that because the leakage of the capillaries in the lungs is rare during exercise that it is rare in other parts of the body as well. You seem to be saying that capillary leakage in general is rare. Not so fast. When a an insect bites you and it swells up, that is an example of capillary leakage. When you slam your hand in a door and it swells, that is an example of capillary leakage. When we exercise, we are using our lungs more frequently but we aren't increasing the pressure on them that much. With our muscles we are putting increased strain on them, so we damage them more than what we do our lungs.
If you're lifting so heavy that it results in bruising and/or swelling, you're doing it wrong.0 -
CattOfTheGarage wrote: »rainbowbow wrote: »Its false.
the cell does not collapse. The number of fat cells in our body is constant after we reach a certain age (around 25 ish) Cells are either repaired or replaced when the cell gets old. So even if the cell does not contain any fat, it will still be there.
Also, keep in mind that the cell is just a storage palce for energy. As with any storage space, it can hold 100% fat (max capacity) or it could be 1% Not sure if it can be zero (as in not active) but it will still be there until replaced by a new cell.
While this is true, I do believe that adipose tissue may hold excess water after stored triglycerides have been used for energy.
I have personally experienced the whoosh several times and have experienced the "squishy fat" that generally proceeds this effect.
What you've experienced is that your weight loss appeared to stall, then you lost weight suddenly. Nobody can argue with that, that absolutely happens. But it's completely explained by the fact that water retention is cycling up and down and so makes steady fat loss appear like a series of stalls and whooshes. It's not evidence of anything to do with where the water is stored or any elaborate mechanism to do with fat cells.
The "squishy fat", in my opinion, is also adequately explained by your skin adapting to loss of fat, plus a good dose of confirmation bias. The skin on my belly often feels squashy during weight loss, but not in any particular pattern.
I will never understand why this story is necessary or helpful. You are losing fat. Sometimes you don't see it because of water retention ("stalls"). Other times you see it and it's exaggerated because of loss of water ("whooshes"). I don't see the need for any other explanation.
Why so mad?0 -
CattOfTheGarage wrote: »rainbowbow wrote: »Its false.
the cell does not collapse. The number of fat cells in our body is constant after we reach a certain age (around 25 ish) Cells are either repaired or replaced when the cell gets old. So even if the cell does not contain any fat, it will still be there.
Also, keep in mind that the cell is just a storage palce for energy. As with any storage space, it can hold 100% fat (max capacity) or it could be 1% Not sure if it can be zero (as in not active) but it will still be there until replaced by a new cell.
While this is true, I do believe that adipose tissue may hold excess water after stored triglycerides have been used for energy.
I have personally experienced the whoosh several times and have experienced the "squishy fat" that generally proceeds this effect.
What you've experienced is that your weight loss appeared to stall, then you lost weight suddenly. Nobody can argue with that, that absolutely happens. But it's completely explained by the fact that water retention is cycling up and down and so makes steady fat loss appear like a series of stalls and whooshes. It's not evidence of anything to do with where the water is stored or any elaborate mechanism to do with fat cells.
The "squishy fat", in my opinion, is also adequately explained by your skin adapting to loss of fat, plus a good dose of confirmation bias. The skin on my belly often feels squashy during weight loss, but not in any particular pattern.
I will never understand why this story is necessary or helpful. You are losing fat. Sometimes you don't see it because of water retention ("stalls"). Other times you see it and it's exaggerated because of loss of water ("whooshes"). I don't see the need for any other explanation.
Why so mad?
Why projecting so much tone?0 -
Carlos_421 wrote: »CattOfTheGarage wrote: »rainbowbow wrote: »Its false.
the cell does not collapse. The number of fat cells in our body is constant after we reach a certain age (around 25 ish) Cells are either repaired or replaced when the cell gets old. So even if the cell does not contain any fat, it will still be there.
Also, keep in mind that the cell is just a storage palce for energy. As with any storage space, it can hold 100% fat (max capacity) or it could be 1% Not sure if it can be zero (as in not active) but it will still be there until replaced by a new cell.
While this is true, I do believe that adipose tissue may hold excess water after stored triglycerides have been used for energy.
I have personally experienced the whoosh several times and have experienced the "squishy fat" that generally proceeds this effect.
What you've experienced is that your weight loss appeared to stall, then you lost weight suddenly. Nobody can argue with that, that absolutely happens. But it's completely explained by the fact that water retention is cycling up and down and so makes steady fat loss appear like a series of stalls and whooshes. It's not evidence of anything to do with where the water is stored or any elaborate mechanism to do with fat cells.
The "squishy fat", in my opinion, is also adequately explained by your skin adapting to loss of fat, plus a good dose of confirmation bias. The skin on my belly often feels squashy during weight loss, but not in any particular pattern.
I will never understand why this story is necessary or helpful. You are losing fat. Sometimes you don't see it because of water retention ("stalls"). Other times you see it and it's exaggerated because of loss of water ("whooshes"). I don't see the need for any other explanation.
Why so mad?
Why projecting so much tone?
I was slightly grumpy that day, in fairness. But this particular story annoys me because it looks like science but is actually a kind of fairy tale that relies on over-simplification and misrepresentation to create the illusion of understanding something that's actually very complicated.
I just don't like to see science misused like that. I'm much more comfortable with the statement "it's complicated and I don't understand it all" than with a nice story that pretends to explain it but doesn't really and isn't true. I'd also rather people were encouraged not to worry about water retention and to focus on long-term consistency and long-term trends, rather than being encouraged to focus on the fluctuations and see patterns that aren't there0 -
Has anyone tried to up their potassium to get unstuck, and maybe force a Whoosh?
On the premise that you are calorie deficient but retaining water, I thought this might work.
More potassium reduces your sodium levels, as I understand it.
Careful with increasing potassium too much. Lethal ;-)0 -
Has anyone tried to up their potassium to get unstuck, and maybe force a Whoosh?
On the premise that you are calorie deficient but retaining water, I thought this might work.
More potassium reduces your sodium levels, as I understand it.
Careful with increasing potassium too much. Lethal ;-)
Do you realize how hard you'd need to dose potassium to get to that point? To give you an idea: I've had days well over 14 grams, and the only adverse effect was a lot of peeing.0 -
I have never noticed this squishy fat phenomenon on myself, and believe me i've checked many, many times hoping to feel or look marshmellowy or squishy, but it's never happened. Nor have i experienced a big weight loss whoosh all of a sudden
I might hold steady for a few weeks and drop like 1/2 a kilo or something within a couple of days, but absolutely nothing to get excited about.0 -
Carlos_421 wrote: »TimothyFish wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »TimothyFish wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »TimothyFish wrote: »Tacklewasher wrote: »So, where is the water held? I know some is retained in muscles if they are in need of repair, but otherwise where is it held and how does sodium change that?
Just curious. I've had wooshes and I know sodium adds weight.
The fluid that is retained in muscles after exercise is due to capillaries leaking. The strain of exercise creates tiny breaks in them, allowing fluids to leak into the surrounding tissue. This fluid serves as a quick temporary fix for the damage while the normal tissue cells go about the process of replicating themselves to make the permanent fix.
Sodium is the electrolyte that is responsible for pulling water into cells. When you eat a lot of sodium the cells that absorb the sodium will tend to retain water until potassium releases it. This is why people with high blood pressure are encouraged to limit their sodium intake. Sodium in the blood cells causes them to hold more water and it makes blood thicker. But this is something that happens throughout the body, it isn't a special characteristic of fat cells and it isn't a result of the fat cell releasing fat.
That's not exactly how it works. Capillary leakage (pulmonary hemorrhage or edema) is a problem which, so far as we know, only occurs in some individuals during/after extreme exercise and is not normal, healthy function. The capillaries are designed to be extremely thin-walled, yet extremely strong so that this doesn't happen.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16737343
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4969033/
As far as I can tell, you are the only one who has even suggested that the fluid we are talking about is water in the lungs.
I'm not suggesting that at all. We're talking about the "whoosh effect" which is the theory that emptying fat cells retain water for some time before releasing it later, resulting in a "whoosh" of weight loss.
The link refers to fluid in the lungs because that's an effect of capillary leakage which you wrongly claimed is a normal part of exercise.
No, you are misunderstanding the articles that you linked to. Capillary leakage is the cause of pulmonary edema, but the article is making the claim that this doesn't happen during exercise except in extreme cases. In other words, it takes some very heavy breathing for pulmonary edema to occur during exercise. But you want to make the claim that because the leakage of the capillaries in the lungs is rare during exercise that it is rare in other parts of the body as well. You seem to be saying that capillary leakage in general is rare. Not so fast. When a an insect bites you and it swells up, that is an example of capillary leakage. When you slam your hand in a door and it swells, that is an example of capillary leakage. When we exercise, we are using our lungs more frequently but we aren't increasing the pressure on them that much. With our muscles we are putting increased strain on them, so we damage them more than what we do our lungs.
If you're lifting so heavy that it results in bruising and/or swelling, you're doing it wrong.
We're not talking about bruising, just micro tears in the muscle.2 -
TimothyFish wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »TimothyFish wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »TimothyFish wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »TimothyFish wrote: »Tacklewasher wrote: »So, where is the water held? I know some is retained in muscles if they are in need of repair, but otherwise where is it held and how does sodium change that?
Just curious. I've had wooshes and I know sodium adds weight.
The fluid that is retained in muscles after exercise is due to capillaries leaking. The strain of exercise creates tiny breaks in them, allowing fluids to leak into the surrounding tissue. This fluid serves as a quick temporary fix for the damage while the normal tissue cells go about the process of replicating themselves to make the permanent fix.
Sodium is the electrolyte that is responsible for pulling water into cells. When you eat a lot of sodium the cells that absorb the sodium will tend to retain water until potassium releases it. This is why people with high blood pressure are encouraged to limit their sodium intake. Sodium in the blood cells causes them to hold more water and it makes blood thicker. But this is something that happens throughout the body, it isn't a special characteristic of fat cells and it isn't a result of the fat cell releasing fat.
That's not exactly how it works. Capillary leakage (pulmonary hemorrhage or edema) is a problem which, so far as we know, only occurs in some individuals during/after extreme exercise and is not normal, healthy function. The capillaries are designed to be extremely thin-walled, yet extremely strong so that this doesn't happen.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16737343
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4969033/
As far as I can tell, you are the only one who has even suggested that the fluid we are talking about is water in the lungs.
I'm not suggesting that at all. We're talking about the "whoosh effect" which is the theory that emptying fat cells retain water for some time before releasing it later, resulting in a "whoosh" of weight loss.
The link refers to fluid in the lungs because that's an effect of capillary leakage which you wrongly claimed is a normal part of exercise.
No, you are misunderstanding the articles that you linked to. Capillary leakage is the cause of pulmonary edema, but the article is making the claim that this doesn't happen during exercise except in extreme cases. In other words, it takes some very heavy breathing for pulmonary edema to occur during exercise. But you want to make the claim that because the leakage of the capillaries in the lungs is rare during exercise that it is rare in other parts of the body as well. You seem to be saying that capillary leakage in general is rare. Not so fast. When a an insect bites you and it swells up, that is an example of capillary leakage. When you slam your hand in a door and it swells, that is an example of capillary leakage. When we exercise, we are using our lungs more frequently but we aren't increasing the pressure on them that much. With our muscles we are putting increased strain on them, so we damage them more than what we do our lungs.
If you're lifting so heavy that it results in bruising and/or swelling, you're doing it wrong.
We're not talking about bruising, just micro tears in the muscle.
You're the one comparing it to slamming one's hand in a door.
ETA: Either way, presence of fluid in muscle tissue during/after exercise is deliberate and by design. Not a happy accident.0 -
Christine_72 wrote: »I have never noticed this squishy fat phenomenon on myself, and believe me i've checked many, many times hoping to feel or look marshmellowy or squishy, but it's never happened. Nor have i experienced a big weight loss whoosh all of a sudden
I might hold steady for a few weeks and drop like 1/2 a kilo or something within a couple of days, but absolutely nothing to get excited about.
You don't want the marshmallow look/feel ... it's awful. You suddenly look like a very old saggy woman. And there's not necessarily a "whoosh" with it. As I mentioned, I've never had a whoosh.2 -
The other water weight gain loss isn't a whoosh either.
When you exercise a bit more than usual, or get too much sun and/or spend too much time in the heat, or it's your TOM, or you eat too much salt ... you retain water and appear to gain weight. Then 3 days later you pee it all out and appear to lose weight.
This is a bit of an annoyance for me because I exercise more just about every weekend, and so just about every weekend I put on 1-2 kg. Monday mornings are so much fun. By Wednesday, I will have lost that weight, and then if I am going to lose real weight, I'll usually see the loss on Friday or Saturday morning ... just before packing on 1-2 kg in water weight again.0 -
Carlos_421 wrote: »TimothyFish wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »TimothyFish wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »TimothyFish wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »TimothyFish wrote: »Tacklewasher wrote: »So, where is the water held? I know some is retained in muscles if they are in need of repair, but otherwise where is it held and how does sodium change that?
Just curious. I've had wooshes and I know sodium adds weight.
The fluid that is retained in muscles after exercise is due to capillaries leaking. The strain of exercise creates tiny breaks in them, allowing fluids to leak into the surrounding tissue. This fluid serves as a quick temporary fix for the damage while the normal tissue cells go about the process of replicating themselves to make the permanent fix.
Sodium is the electrolyte that is responsible for pulling water into cells. When you eat a lot of sodium the cells that absorb the sodium will tend to retain water until potassium releases it. This is why people with high blood pressure are encouraged to limit their sodium intake. Sodium in the blood cells causes them to hold more water and it makes blood thicker. But this is something that happens throughout the body, it isn't a special characteristic of fat cells and it isn't a result of the fat cell releasing fat.
That's not exactly how it works. Capillary leakage (pulmonary hemorrhage or edema) is a problem which, so far as we know, only occurs in some individuals during/after extreme exercise and is not normal, healthy function. The capillaries are designed to be extremely thin-walled, yet extremely strong so that this doesn't happen.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16737343
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4969033/
As far as I can tell, you are the only one who has even suggested that the fluid we are talking about is water in the lungs.
I'm not suggesting that at all. We're talking about the "whoosh effect" which is the theory that emptying fat cells retain water for some time before releasing it later, resulting in a "whoosh" of weight loss.
The link refers to fluid in the lungs because that's an effect of capillary leakage which you wrongly claimed is a normal part of exercise.
No, you are misunderstanding the articles that you linked to. Capillary leakage is the cause of pulmonary edema, but the article is making the claim that this doesn't happen during exercise except in extreme cases. In other words, it takes some very heavy breathing for pulmonary edema to occur during exercise. But you want to make the claim that because the leakage of the capillaries in the lungs is rare during exercise that it is rare in other parts of the body as well. You seem to be saying that capillary leakage in general is rare. Not so fast. When a an insect bites you and it swells up, that is an example of capillary leakage. When you slam your hand in a door and it swells, that is an example of capillary leakage. When we exercise, we are using our lungs more frequently but we aren't increasing the pressure on them that much. With our muscles we are putting increased strain on them, so we damage them more than what we do our lungs.
If you're lifting so heavy that it results in bruising and/or swelling, you're doing it wrong.
We're not talking about bruising, just micro tears in the muscle.
You're the one comparing it to slamming one's hand in a door.
ETA: Either way, presence of fluid in muscle tissue during/after exercise is deliberate and by design. Not a happy accident.
At this point, I kind of want to go slam my head in a door. I never compared sore muscles to slamming one's hand in a door. If you take the time to read what I wrote you will see that I didn't compare anything to slamming one's hand in a door. All I did was provide you with some examples of capillary leakage that are obvious because you were claiming it doesn't happen.0 -
The other water weight gain loss isn't a whoosh either.
When you exercise a bit more than usual, or get too much sun and/or spend too much time in the heat, or it's your TOM, or you eat too much salt ... you retain water and appear to gain weight. Then 3 days later you pee it all out and appear to lose weight.
This is a bit of an annoyance for me because I exercise more just about every weekend, and so just about every weekend I put on 1-2 kg. Monday mornings are so much fun. By Wednesday, I will have lost that weight, and then if I am going to lose real weight, I'll usually see the loss on Friday or Saturday morning ... just before packing on 1-2 kg in water weight again.
@Machka9 Do you use a weight trending app? I use Trendweight, and i think i confuse it because of my fluid retention! One week I'm losing 0.1kg a week, next week I'm gaining 0.1kg, next week I'm losing 0.2kg and then i start all over again. I would just love to get 2-3 consistent weeks in a row!0 -
Christine_72 wrote: »The other water weight gain loss isn't a whoosh either.
When you exercise a bit more than usual, or get too much sun and/or spend too much time in the heat, or it's your TOM, or you eat too much salt ... you retain water and appear to gain weight. Then 3 days later you pee it all out and appear to lose weight.
This is a bit of an annoyance for me because I exercise more just about every weekend, and so just about every weekend I put on 1-2 kg. Monday mornings are so much fun. By Wednesday, I will have lost that weight, and then if I am going to lose real weight, I'll usually see the loss on Friday or Saturday morning ... just before packing on 1-2 kg in water weight again.
@Machka9 Do you use a weight trending app? I use Trendweight, and i think i confuse it because of my fluid retention! One week I'm losing 0.1kg a week, next week I'm gaining 0.1kg, next week I'm losing 0.2kg and then i start all over again. I would just love to get 2-3 consistent weeks in a row!
No, I just weigh myself every day and watch the fluctuations.0 -
TimothyFish wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »TimothyFish wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »TimothyFish wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »TimothyFish wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »TimothyFish wrote: »Tacklewasher wrote: »So, where is the water held? I know some is retained in muscles if they are in need of repair, but otherwise where is it held and how does sodium change that?
Just curious. I've had wooshes and I know sodium adds weight.
The fluid that is retained in muscles after exercise is due to capillaries leaking. The strain of exercise creates tiny breaks in them, allowing fluids to leak into the surrounding tissue. This fluid serves as a quick temporary fix for the damage while the normal tissue cells go about the process of replicating themselves to make the permanent fix.
Sodium is the electrolyte that is responsible for pulling water into cells. When you eat a lot of sodium the cells that absorb the sodium will tend to retain water until potassium releases it. This is why people with high blood pressure are encouraged to limit their sodium intake. Sodium in the blood cells causes them to hold more water and it makes blood thicker. But this is something that happens throughout the body, it isn't a special characteristic of fat cells and it isn't a result of the fat cell releasing fat.
That's not exactly how it works. Capillary leakage (pulmonary hemorrhage or edema) is a problem which, so far as we know, only occurs in some individuals during/after extreme exercise and is not normal, healthy function. The capillaries are designed to be extremely thin-walled, yet extremely strong so that this doesn't happen.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16737343
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4969033/
As far as I can tell, you are the only one who has even suggested that the fluid we are talking about is water in the lungs.
I'm not suggesting that at all. We're talking about the "whoosh effect" which is the theory that emptying fat cells retain water for some time before releasing it later, resulting in a "whoosh" of weight loss.
The link refers to fluid in the lungs because that's an effect of capillary leakage which you wrongly claimed is a normal part of exercise.
No, you are misunderstanding the articles that you linked to. Capillary leakage is the cause of pulmonary edema, but the article is making the claim that this doesn't happen during exercise except in extreme cases. In other words, it takes some very heavy breathing for pulmonary edema to occur during exercise. But you want to make the claim that because the leakage of the capillaries in the lungs is rare during exercise that it is rare in other parts of the body as well. You seem to be saying that capillary leakage in general is rare. Not so fast. When a an insect bites you and it swells up, that is an example of capillary leakage. When you slam your hand in a door and it swells, that is an example of capillary leakage. When we exercise, we are using our lungs more frequently but we aren't increasing the pressure on them that much. With our muscles we are putting increased strain on them, so we damage them more than what we do our lungs.
If you're lifting so heavy that it results in bruising and/or swelling, you're doing it wrong.
We're not talking about bruising, just micro tears in the muscle.
You're the one comparing it to slamming one's hand in a door.
ETA: Either way, presence of fluid in muscle tissue during/after exercise is deliberate and by design. Not a happy accident.
At this point, I kind of want to go slam my head in a door. I never compared sore muscles to slamming one's hand in a door. If you take the time to read what I wrote you will see that I didn't compare anything to slamming one's hand in a door. All I did was provide you with some examples of capillary leakage that are obvious because you were claiming it doesn't happen.
You wrongly claimed that it happens as a result of exercise.
I said it doesn't.
You said it does and that capillaries leak when hands are slammed in doors.
I illustrated that the capillary leakage that results from blunt force trauma is nothing like what occurs during exercise by pointing out that bruising does not occur from normal exercise (but does occur as a result of capillary leakage).
You backtracked by saying that you're not talking about bruises, just "micro tears" in the muscle (tearing of muscle fibers is not even related to capillary leakage).
I reminded you that the door slamming illustration was your own.
You further backtracked by stating that you didn't equate the capillary leakage that occurs due to hands in doors to the capillary leakage that you claim occurs in exercise.
Regardless, you're wrong. Normal exercise does not result in any kind of capillary leakage.
And we're talking about sore muscles now? Do you think muscles get sore because of capillary fractures? Are you just making up your own theories? Because that's not how any of this works.
If anyone else even cares and is nerdy enough, like me, to read through it all, they can learn what actually happens to blood vessels during exercise here:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK57139/
As for me, I'm not going to further detail this thread by continuing to engage with you. If you decide to slam your head in the door, be sure to call it "exercise" and prove your own point.1
This discussion has been closed.
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