Runners: Why so slow?
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BeeerRunner wrote: »80% of your running should be at a conversational pace.The_Enginerd wrote: »This link has a pretty good explanation some of the science behind the why. In short, running your training runs faster won't lead to being faster beyond a certain point, and you increase your risk of injuries and wear yourself out so your other runs are lower quality.
https://runnersconnect.net/running-training-articles/aerobic-training-run-faster-by-running-easy/
Interesting.... Thank you for the article and the experience. I'll have to see what "conversational" pace is for me. 50-75% of my current 5k pace is only 3-4.4mph. I'm not sure I can actually run that slow! Surely not below 4mph.
It is definitely a different mindset. With lifting, generally if you're not pushing you aren't progressing0 -
If it helps, I started the same way, running really fast all the time. I think most do, and as we start enjoying running more, we want to learn more about running. that's when we learn what changes to make to be successful.
When you do experience a running injury and are kept from doing what you love, it sucks. Lol4 -
Seems like I should be happy that I can have as more benefit from working less, but...seems like sorta a letdown somehow...
Anyway: I think new plan is to do 3-4 easy runs and 1 PR 5k run per week.... We'll see. I start back to martial arts next week so that will also take its toll.
Thanks again for the responses.
ETA: need to get up yet earlier to get in a "long run" sigh....:p2 -
It's really not about pace.
Pace is a way to keep it fun, and to try to beat your last time, and it always feels great when you beat your last run.
But increased fitness level is done by keeping your heart rate in a cardio zone for x number of minutes and x times per week. You should get a training effect, which means you should push yourself.
You should also recover properly. Recovery does not mean don't workout. It just means do easy workouts between the ones that you push yourself on.
For example, if I do a 5 mile run one day, I'll do a 3 or 5 mile power walk the next day. On the run days I'll try to keep my heart rate in zone 4/5, and on the recovery days I'll try to keep my heart rate in zone 2/3. I waer a heart rate monitor so I can adjust my pace to keep my heart rate where I want it to be.
Just one example.
The thing about heart rate training is you should know what your true maximum heart rate is.1 -
Those are not very fast times for a 5k2
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You are running only 5Ks that's why you want to run faster and keep PR ing, because it's such a short distance. That's OK. But if your goal was to increase distance or train for a 10K or half-marathon your perspective on pace would sigificantly differ. Running for longer distance at slower speed will naturally lead to a faster 5K with decreased risk of injury.3
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Ok, so as a follow up then..... Are you experience runners spent/panting/DONE when you finish your goal distance? Never, sometimes, most of the time, always?
The only time I feel completely spent is when I'm racing. Then I feel like I want to toss my cookies at the end. But not when training. When doing speed intervals or a tempo run, you should feel like you could do one more, but you're happy you don't have to. IOW, tired, but not completely wiped out. There should be enough energy left to do a decent cool down jog to loosen your muscles and get your HR and breathing under control.
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Simply put, you body has to have time to recover. If you run 100% effort all the time, you will get slower, not faster. Even the 3 Nike runners that are trying to break the 2 hour marathon this year run slow for much of their training. Check out the Runners World articles and podcasts on this.
FWIW, I do speed training on Wednesdays and various long runs on Sundays. Every run in between is done slowly (very slowly). For Sunday's 20 mile run the plan is to start about 90 seconds slower than my marathon pace for the first mile and add 10-15 seconds per mile for the first 10. Then repeat. There is a purpose to this run as there is to most training runs. It is up to you to find out why this and other techniques work. Read books. Ask questions to trainers and coaches. Surf the interwebs. The knowledge is out there. How you use it will determine how effective your plan is.
Good luck.2 -
I also want to add that speed work has NO BUSINESS in a beginning runner's plans. Your goal for the first year should be building up the muscles and tendons/ligaments as well as your lungs. Allow the blood vessels to form so when you are ready to go faster you body won't break down. Plus, you gain speed simply by running longer. No need to give all out effort.11
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spiriteagle99 wrote: »Ok, so as a follow up then..... Are you experience runners spent/panting/DONE when you finish your goal distance? Never, sometimes, most of the time, always?
The only time I feel completely spent is when I'm racing. Then I feel like I want to toss my cookies at the end. But not when training. When doing speed intervals or a tempo run, you should feel like you could do one more, but you're happy you don't have to. IOW, tired, but not completely wiped out. There should be enough energy left to do a decent cool down jog to loosen your muscles and get your HR and breathing under control.
I agree with this...especially for the half marathon races and shorter. As you start getting into the longer distances 16+ miles, it's more of a leg muscle fatigue instead of an aerobic fatigue. The more you do the longer runs, the more your body gets used to it. When I did my first 18 mile run within the past few months, I was glad it was over because my body was tired, not from panting or being out of breath. My legs were sore and I could feel blisters that developed. It was the 1st time I was glad a run was done in a while. As I did more 18 to 20 mile runs, my body got more used to those distances.
Now that I think about it, after my 1st 10 mile run, it was the same. My body was tired but I didn't have that feeling you have after a race where you gave it your all, on the verge of puking, heart pounding, etc. That's why long runs should primarily be long and slow. The purpose is to get your legs used to running longer in order to build your endurance. The more long runs you do, the more your body gets used to going that distance, and eventually, you can do it fast in a race.
After speed work, I'm hot, sweaty, and winded, but I don't feel spent or like I cant keep going if I had to. I always finish speed work with a slow run to cool down.3 -
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As a not quite newbie runner any more, this thread has been great! Not that I'm surprised given that the majority of the contributors are those I'd ask for running advice anyway! :flowerforyou:3
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Well, personally i don't think i 'd be able to push myself hard at all my runs and not burn out. And i don't think it would be a very pleasant experience either.
I have 3 runs per week. One is for working on my distance, and running at 9 km/h for 15k would be pretty impossible and unpleasant. I feel tired when i finish my distance run, so i won't try going faster unless my body is capable enough.
My 2nd run of the week is a casual 45'-1h run at a steady, acceptable pace. Not too fast,not too slow. It works as a bridge, helping me recover from my long run,and preparing me for my speed run,which is the last run of the week. Then i have a "race" 5k run,competing against my best time. During that run i go all out, huffing ,puffing and all that. It's not very pleasant, but it's a way to track my progress and i give myself that extra push. But doing that 3 times a week? No thank you.2 -
If you're a regular runner, you should be mixing it up. Longer runs are generally slower so you can last the distance. Shorter runs, you can push the pace a bit. Usually the advice to run slower is given to new runners that are trying to build up a base fitness.0
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What I've noticed is that most people decide they want to run and get incredibly motivated to do so, and then reality starts to set in. For many people who have never been "runners" or are maybe 20 years removed from their track star days in high school, they try to do too much too soon and either end up frustrated or hurt. I was one of those people. Never good at running, decided to train for a 25k but didn't fully understand the commitment that running really is. To build the heart, leg, and respiratory strength to run fast and/or long distances takes time and hundreds of miles of repetition.
Most people tend to get frustrated fast. They don't want to accept that they're going to be slower than they want for awhile. They also look at ads of people running and smiling and think that that is how running always is. It's not. A lot of running, especially in the beginning, is finding your grit to push through the cramp, and the "I can't do this" that may constantly be in your head. It's telling yourself that it's one foot in front of the other over and over and over again.
Another aspect is safety. You don't want the person who hasn't broken a sweat in 10 years to jump on the treadmill and try to crank out 8 minute miles. That's how heart attacks happen. We tell them to slow down because they need to slowly build their legs' strength to carry them that distance as well as the cardiovascular strength to move a large volume of blood. As they build their ritual of consistently running, distance and pace increase. Problem is most people don't stick it out because we're stuck in that mindset of instant gratification and running is the exact opposite. You have to endure miles of suck to get to the good stuff.6 -
short answer: just mix it up, or you'll burn out.0
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Ok, so as a follow up then..... Are you experience runners spent/panting/DONE when you finish your goal distance? Never, sometimes, most of the time, always?
My runs have different purposes. I will be panting and spent at the end of some speed focused workouts. But after a long run meant to build endurance, no.
I didn't begin to do speed work until I had a solid base of mileage and endurance. IMO, those are the main things that newer runners should focus on, which is why you will so often see the advice for people to slow down.0 -
Ok, so as a follow up then..... Are you experience runners spent/panting/DONE when you finish your goal distance? Never, sometimes, most of the time, always?
Can't speak to the present - I'm working back from an injury, but when I was running regularly:
Never, unless I'm doing speedwork which is a once every couple of weeks thing.
Otherwise, I'm doing a recovery run, a pace run, or a long run where the goal is to increase mileage, not to wear myself out. If I hit any of these runs too hard, overall performance drops pretty much immediately and takes a while to come back without taking a break.
Going longer makes it possible for me to go faster at shorter distances - and those shorter distances get longer as well.0 -
spiriteagle99 wrote: »There are adaptations that happen when your body is going more slowly. You become more efficient at burning fat for fuel instead of glycogen. Your body creates capillaries and mitochondria to send oxygen to the muscles. You become better at using oxygen. Aerobic exercise means using oxygen. Running all out doesn't use oxygen well.
For most people, going slowly allows them to go farther. i.e. running 10 miles at a 6 mph pace is easier than running it at an 8 mph pace. When you are puffing and panting, you run out of energy pretty quickly. If you are doing only short fitness runs, that is less important, but for anyone who enjoys racing, going farther is the best training.
Then there is the injury aspect. If you are doing fast intervals or tempo miles, after a nice long warm up and with a good long cooldown, you can probably run fast a couple of times a week without getting injured. But if you just go out and run as hard as you can on cold muscles, you definitely risk injury, and probably long term injury. Hamstrings especially really don't like that.
To add to this, it is interesting to note that we don't "build" muscle how many people think we do. The muscle fibers we have are what we have to work with, we don't create new ones. Some muscle fibers were cast to aerobic/slow twitch and others anaerobic fast twitch. And there is a huge range in between. What we can do, through our training is bring some of the fast twitch muscle fibers over to the aerobic side. Muscle fiber diameter will decrease (to allow O2 to more easily be brought to the fibers), mitochondrial density and capillary density all grow when training in the "aerobic zone."
This is also the reason if one wants to increase their performance time they should plan out the appropriate taper and then add in the anaerobic work 3-6 weeks before the event. Even world class sprinters train this way, they build up their aerobic base and then they can handle higher anaerobic training frequencies, longer training sessions and bigger loads. But, they still only run full out only for competitions (which for them is a handful of times a year). The anaerobic fibers are adapted much quicker and with "endurance" events Maffetone even says most people don't need any anaerobic training.
Want to get faster? Drop your weight lifting (it is counterproductive to building aerobic base or it adds bulk elsewhere that you need to carry around), drop the intervals until the appropriate time (counterproductive to building aerobic base) and stop trying to run all out a couple times a week (counterproductive to building aerobic base). If it is a shorter distance event, build your aerobic base and then sacrifice some of it to the anaerobic system.1 -
BeeerRunner wrote: »80% of your running should be at a conversational pace.The_Enginerd wrote: »This link has a pretty good explanation some of the science behind the why. In short, running your training runs faster won't lead to being faster beyond a certain point, and you increase your risk of injuries and wear yourself out so your other runs are lower quality.
https://runnersconnect.net/running-training-articles/aerobic-training-run-faster-by-running-easy/
Interesting.... Thank you for the article and the experience. I'll have to see what "conversational" pace is for me. 50-75% of my current 5k pace is only 3-4.4mph. I'm not sure I can actually run that slow! Surely not below 4mph.
It is definitely a different mindset. With lifting, generally if you're not pushing you aren't progressing
The McMillan pace calculator puts your training paces in the 11:00-12:00 minute range, and that sounds about right to me. It's difficult to get used to slowing down in the beginning because it feels so slow. 80% of my mileage I am taking it easy and enjoy the scenery. It's basically like going for a walk/hike, except faster.0
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