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The Urban Food Desert Myth
Theo166
Posts: 2,564 Member
I saw lack of fresh veggies in the city being used as an excuse in another thread. Well, it turns out that it's all a myth.
Here are some reading links for the curious, to get the discussion started.
Michelle had a great goal as FLOTUS, just wish she had done her homework. To fix problems, you need to work on the actual roots of it.
Here are some reading links for the curious, to get the discussion started.
NPR: The Myth of the Food Desert
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Specifically, we are taught to think that the black obesity problem is in large part a matter of societal injustice. The story goes that the rise in obesity among the poor is due to a paucity of supermarkets in inner-city areas. This factoid has quite a hold on the general conversation about health issues and the poor, for two reasons. One is that it sits easily in the memory. The other is that it corresponds to our sense that poor people's problems are not their fault — which quite often they are not — and that reversing the problem will require undoing said injustice.
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NYT: Studies Question the Pairing of Food Deserts and Obesity
It has become an article of faith among some policy makers and advocates, including Michelle Obama, that poor urban neighborhoods are food deserts, bereft of fresh fruits and vegetables.
But two new studies have found something unexpected. Such neighborhoods not only have more fast food restaurants and convenience stores than more affluent ones, but more grocery stores, supermarkets and full-service restaurants, too. And there is no relationship between the type of food being sold in a neighborhood and obesity among its children and adolescents.
...
Michelle had a great goal as FLOTUS, just wish she had done her homework. To fix problems, you need to work on the actual roots of it.
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Replies
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In my experience living in Nevada more affluent areas have more supermarkets. As income in an area drops, the supermarkets close. I'm not sure this happens everywhere, but it happened to me a few times when I lived in Las Vegas. I was lucky enough to own a car.
Currently I live in a working class suburb of Reno, not sure if that counts as the city, and a food desert. I can walk to Family Dollar and Dollar Tree, who sell frozen and canned foods, we even have a McDonald's, but I have to drive out to the next valley to buy fresh foods.
I'm not sure where these studies were looking, but apparently the places I've lived are statistically insignificant.
Obesity and poverty is more complicated than just food deserts though. There are also issues with access to safe food storage and cooking facilities. Lower paying jobs have crazy work schedules which screws up everything from sleep and appetite to grocery shopping and meal prep. Not owning a car takes even more time away. Yes, losing weight comes down to personal responsibility, but the more barriers that get thrown in your way the harder it gets.51 -
Linking obesity to poverty is absurd on its face. Compared to the poor in most nations outside of the US, the only thing our poverty stricken are bereft of, is the education to make choices that aren't ridiculous, and the need for vigorous physical activity. I've personally never met a long-term homeless person with a serious (or even notable) weight problem, unless they were wheelchair bound, and I've lived in a lot of cities.27
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From my own past experience in the U.K., it is often cheaper to buy carbs, and junk or processed food than it is to buy fresh fruit and vegetables. You can for example, buy pasta/rice for many meals but a equivalent amount of veg (price-wise) might only give you 1-2 portions. Equally, things such as biscuits can be very cheap here. There may also be a correlation between income and education that affects diet.29
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A big problem with these studies, is that they never include asking people about what they buy and eat, how, and why.
I have been fat and normal weight living in the same flat, and surrounded by the same stores and restaurants, the same gyms and the same walkways. For me, weight management is about choices, preferences, attitude, reflection, and finding effective and sustainable solutions. I knew how to cook, and I had plenty of knowledge about nutrition (knew the national guidelines by heart), and I really tried to "eat right", could do it for a while, but I hated what I perceived as healthy food. I was lazy because I was malnourished and paralyzed from fear I was eating myself to death. I tried to ease the discomfort by eating. That didn't help.16 -
From my own past experience in the U.K., it is often cheaper to buy carbs, and junk or processed food than it is to buy fresh fruit and vegetables. You can for example, buy pasta/rice for many meals but a equivalent amount of veg (price-wise) might only give you 1-2 portions. Equally, things such as biscuits can be very cheap here. There may also be a correlation between income and education that affects diet.
I 100% agree. To go into Tesco and fill a basket with fresh fruit/veg is gonna cost more. Lean meat is always more expensive than high fat.
One example for my family is fajitas! We love them but they work out so expensive for 3 people.
Peppers €1.49
Onion €0.39
Mushrooms €0.99
Chicken €4.99
Wraps €0.79
Spices €1.00
Sweetcorn €0.50
Rice €.50
Total €10.65
Or a pre-packed ready meal full of salt, sugar and fat that can be microwaved = €1.00 each
It's crazy!!
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How does Black equal poor and obese? :huh:22
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From my own past experience in the U.K., it is often cheaper to buy carbs, and junk or processed food than it is to buy fresh fruit and vegetables. You can for example, buy pasta/rice for many meals but a equivalent amount of veg (price-wise) might only give you 1-2 portions. Equally, things such as biscuits can be very cheap here. There may also be a correlation between income and education that affects diet.
I 100% agree. To go into Tesco and fill a basket with fresh fruit/veg is gonna cost more. Lean meat is always more expensive than high fat.
One example for my family is fajitas! We love them but they work out so expensive for 3 people.
Peppers €1.49
Onion €0.39
Mushrooms €0.99
Chicken €4.99
Wraps €0.79
Spices €1.00
Sweetcorn €0.50
Rice €.50
Total €10.65
Or a pre-packed ready meal full of salt, sugar and fat that can be microwaved = €1.00 each
It's crazy!!
None of which has anything to do with obesity, assuming that one understands and applies basic math to their energy needs. You know what happened when I was eating keto, and dropping 2-3 lbs. per week? My grocery bill went through the floor, because chicken thighs, organ meat and 73/27 ground beef are insanely cheap.5 -
I'm not from the US, but in my experience in the UK, living in various income brackets, this is an issue. At my poorest, the area in which I ended up living had extremely limited provision for fresh food, and the nearest decent, reasonably priced stockist was a 1.5 mile walk. Not marathon-level distances by any means, but if you have no car, and you have young children, you may find it quite taxing to walk home with a week's worth of fresh groceries accompanied by an over-tired three-year-old. So you'll end up making several trips a week, which turns food shopping into a huge time-sink, which in turn makes the local corner shop a more attractive option, even though it only sells ready meals, pasta and the most over-priced lettuce on the planet.
Especially in winter.
I cannot tell you how much I love only living 0.5 miles from a supermarket now.23 -
I think a lot depends on what you choose as well. A while back, the local prices of cauliflower and broccoli soared because of weather problems where they were grown. I could still get cabbage very cheaply in any supermarket I cared to visit. As it happens, I like cauliflower a lot more than I like cabbage, but I can't really say that I couldn't eat fresh vegetables cheaply if I had wanted to.
Some frozen and canned vegetables are very nutritious and cheap, although with canned ones you need to read the labels to find out if there are high levels of salt or a sauce with other ingredients you don't want to eat.
I don't think I've ever lived anywhere I could call a food desert, although one or two very small rural villages might have come close. No one in my present city (a small one) seems to live anywhere they might have difficulty accessing a supermarket unless the circumstances are unusual (disabled and unable to afford the wheelchair public transportation services, for example). Even when I visited relatives who lived in a poor area in a major city, they had supermarkets within walking distance - or a very short bus trip away, if walking was difficult. They weren't high-end supermarkets, but they certainly sold fresh food. It seemed cheap to me (and was, compared to the prices in my home city), but maybe they were a bit more pricey than in supermarkets in rich areas of the same city. I didn't investigate that.1 -
If anyone has read George Orwell's classic book, "The Road to Wigan Pier" written back in the 1930s about poor mining communities in the North of England they are probably familiar with this quote:Would it not be better if they spent more money on wholesome things like oranges and wholemeal bread or if they even, like the writer of the letter to the New Statesman, saved on fuel and ate their carrots raw? Yes, it would, but the point is that no ordinary human being is ever going to do such a thing. The ordinary human being would sooner starve than live on brown bread and raw carrots. And the peculiar evil is this, that the less money you have, the less inclined you feel to spend it on wholesome food. A millionaire may enjoy breakfasting off orange juice and Ryvita biscuits; an unemployed man doesn’t. Here the tendency of which I spoke at the end of the last chapter comes into play. When you are unemployed, which is to say when you are underfed, harassed, bored, and miserable, you don’t want to eat dull wholesome food. You want something a little bit ‘tasty’. There is always some cheaply pleasant thing to tempt you. Let’s have three pennorth of chips! Run out and buy us a twopenny ice-cream! Put the kettle on and we’ll all have a nice cup of tea! That is how your mind works when you are at the P.A.C. level. White bread-and-marg and sugared tea don’t nourish you to any extent, but they are nicer (at least most people think so) than brown bread-and-dripping and cold water. Unemployment is an endless misery that has got to be constantly palliated, and especially with tea, the English-man’s opium. A cup of tea or even an aspirin is much better as a temporary stimulant than a crust of brown bread.
Over-eating and therefore obesity is an expected consequence of poverty.
Tasty food and drink is one of life's greatest pleasures. Poverty is rubbish. Therefore if you are poor you are likely to seek out "luxury" goods which bring pleasure to life which is within your means. This has the effect of increasing demand for those items, driving innovation and bringing lower prices. The bonus is that means more luxury items come into the reach of those on lower incomes. And so the circle goes on...65 -
Gallowmere1984 wrote: »From my own past experience in the U.K., it is often cheaper to buy carbs, and junk or processed food than it is to buy fresh fruit and vegetables. You can for example, buy pasta/rice for many meals but a equivalent amount of veg (price-wise) might only give you 1-2 portions. Equally, things such as biscuits can be very cheap here. There may also be a correlation between income and education that affects diet.
I 100% agree. To go into Tesco and fill a basket with fresh fruit/veg is gonna cost more. Lean meat is always more expensive than high fat.
One example for my family is fajitas! We love them but they work out so expensive for 3 people.
Peppers €1.49
Onion €0.39
Mushrooms €0.99
Chicken €4.99
Wraps €0.79
Spices €1.00
Sweetcorn €0.50
Rice €.50
Total €10.65
Or a pre-packed ready meal full of salt, sugar and fat that can be microwaved = €1.00 each
It's crazy!!
None of which has anything to do with obesity, assuming that one understands and applies basic math to their energy needs. You know what happened when I was eating keto, and dropping 2-3 lbs. per week? My grocery bill went through the floor, because chicken thighs, organ meat and 73/27 ground beef are insanely cheap.
But people don't always apply basic math. If you're on a low income, feeding your family 3 meals a day often won't come down to basic math calorie wise. It comes down to having to give them food but also pay bills. Is someone gonna spend €10 on a family meal when they can spend €3? If you have to make a choice because you also have rent/bills due, it will often be the cheap option. These foods are cheap and often people won't care if they are 1000+ cals a time cos they are full of crap.
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Gallowmere1984 wrote: »From my own past experience in the U.K., it is often cheaper to buy carbs, and junk or processed food than it is to buy fresh fruit and vegetables. You can for example, buy pasta/rice for many meals but a equivalent amount of veg (price-wise) might only give you 1-2 portions. Equally, things such as biscuits can be very cheap here. There may also be a correlation between income and education that affects diet.
I 100% agree. To go into Tesco and fill a basket with fresh fruit/veg is gonna cost more. Lean meat is always more expensive than high fat.
One example for my family is fajitas! We love them but they work out so expensive for 3 people.
Peppers €1.49
Onion €0.39
Mushrooms €0.99
Chicken €4.99
Wraps €0.79
Spices €1.00
Sweetcorn €0.50
Rice €.50
Total €10.65
Or a pre-packed ready meal full of salt, sugar and fat that can be microwaved = €1.00 each
It's crazy!!
None of which has anything to do with obesity, assuming that one understands and applies basic math to their energy needs. You know what happened when I was eating keto, and dropping 2-3 lbs. per week? My grocery bill went through the floor, because chicken thighs, organ meat and 73/27 ground beef are insanely cheap.
But people don't always apply basic math. If you're on a low income, feeding your family 3 meals a day often won't come down to basic math calorie wise. It comes down to having to give them food but also pay bills. Is someone gonna spend €10 on a family meal when they can spend €3? If you have to make a choice because you also have rent/bills due, it will often be the cheap option. These foods are cheap and often people won't care if they are 1000+ cals a time cos they are full of crap.
Or they could just, ya know, not eat the whole thing. That's what I am getting at. The portioning is the problem, regardless of macronutrient makeup.7 -
This isn't my area of expertise, as I don't know what meat tastes like, but is this stuff that can be used to make meals that children going through a fussy phase will eat? Don't say "they'll eat when they're hungry" because some will, some won't.Gallowmere1984 wrote: »From my own past experience in the U.K., it is often cheaper to buy carbs, and junk or processed food than it is to buy fresh fruit and vegetables. You can for example, buy pasta/rice for many meals but a equivalent amount of veg (price-wise) might only give you 1-2 portions. Equally, things such as biscuits can be very cheap here. There may also be a correlation between income and education that affects diet.
I 100% agree. To go into Tesco and fill a basket with fresh fruit/veg is gonna cost more. Lean meat is always more expensive than high fat.
One example for my family is fajitas! We love them but they work out so expensive for 3 people.
Peppers €1.49
Onion €0.39
Mushrooms €0.99
Chicken €4.99
Wraps €0.79
Spices €1.00
Sweetcorn €0.50
Rice €.50
Total €10.65
Or a pre-packed ready meal full of salt, sugar and fat that can be microwaved = €1.00 each
It's crazy!!
None of which has anything to do with obesity, assuming that one understands and applies basic math to their energy needs. You know what happened when I was eating keto, and dropping 2-3 lbs. per week? My grocery bill went through the floor, because chicken thighs, organ meat and 73/27 ground beef are insanely cheap.
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HeliumIsNoble wrote: »
This isn't my area of expertise, as I don't know what meat tastes like, but is this stuff that can be used to make meals that children going through a fussy phase will eat? Don't say "they'll eat when they're hungry" because some will, some won't.Gallowmere1984 wrote: »From my own past experience in the U.K., it is often cheaper to buy carbs, and junk or processed food than it is to buy fresh fruit and vegetables. You can for example, buy pasta/rice for many meals but a equivalent amount of veg (price-wise) might only give you 1-2 portions. Equally, things such as biscuits can be very cheap here. There may also be a correlation between income and education that affects diet.
I 100% agree. To go into Tesco and fill a basket with fresh fruit/veg is gonna cost more. Lean meat is always more expensive than high fat.
One example for my family is fajitas! We love them but they work out so expensive for 3 people.
Peppers €1.49
Onion €0.39
Mushrooms €0.99
Chicken €4.99
Wraps €0.79
Spices €1.00
Sweetcorn €0.50
Rice €.50
Total €10.65
Or a pre-packed ready meal full of salt, sugar and fat that can be microwaved = €1.00 each
It's crazy!!
None of which has anything to do with obesity, assuming that one understands and applies basic math to their energy needs. You know what happened when I was eating keto, and dropping 2-3 lbs. per week? My grocery bill went through the floor, because chicken thighs, organ meat and 73/27 ground beef are insanely cheap.
No way to tell, as every child is different. However, if they won't eat it, that will certainly fix the obesity issue.1 -
*pauses for a moment*Gallowmere1984 wrote: »HeliumIsNoble wrote: »
This isn't my area of expertise, as I don't know what meat tastes like, but is this stuff that can be used to make meals that children going through a fussy phase will eat? Don't say "they'll eat when they're hungry" because some will, some won't.Gallowmere1984 wrote: »From my own past experience in the U.K., it is often cheaper to buy carbs, and junk or processed food than it is to buy fresh fruit and vegetables. You can for example, buy pasta/rice for many meals but a equivalent amount of veg (price-wise) might only give you 1-2 portions. Equally, things such as biscuits can be very cheap here. There may also be a correlation between income and education that affects diet.
I 100% agree. To go into Tesco and fill a basket with fresh fruit/veg is gonna cost more. Lean meat is always more expensive than high fat.
One example for my family is fajitas! We love them but they work out so expensive for 3 people.
Peppers €1.49
Onion €0.39
Mushrooms €0.99
Chicken €4.99
Wraps €0.79
Spices €1.00
Sweetcorn €0.50
Rice €.50
Total €10.65
Or a pre-packed ready meal full of salt, sugar and fat that can be microwaved = €1.00 each
It's crazy!!
None of which has anything to do with obesity, assuming that one understands and applies basic math to their energy needs. You know what happened when I was eating keto, and dropping 2-3 lbs. per week? My grocery bill went through the floor, because chicken thighs, organ meat and 73/27 ground beef are insanely cheap.
No way to tell, as every child is different. However, if they won't eat it, that will certainly fix the obesity issue.
Not... really... the recommended method for improving the health of overweight children, no?
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Food deserts in general are not a myth. Yes, it's a myth that all poor urban areas are food deserts, but that doesn't mean food deserts don't exist. I've lived in a few. One was a poor urban area in the Midwest. Yes you can look at a street map and see there is a grocery store within walking distance, but street maps do not take into account gang territories or other hazards between you and the food. I lived in a place where it was not safe to go two blocks uptown which is where the grocery store was due to gang boundaries but I could go ten blocks down the hill to the river where there were bars and corner stores just fine. That area was a kind of a neutral zone because it was run by pimps and their hookers.
Another food desert was also a water desert out in the west when I lived in a single wide trailer in a desperately poor rural area. Nearest grocery store was 45mikes away and although we had plumbing, the tap water wasn't safe to drink (EPA notice about arsenic in water) so my dad had to use our beat up rusted out truck to bring home a tank of water every week as well as food.
Electricity wasn't too dependable in either place...urban or country and so we couldn't buy fresh veg or meat because it would rot to nothing in a day. Lots of canned and dried foods. I think people assume everyone has access to a refrigerator/freezer when many poor people don't.24 -
I think there is a tendency for those with a grasp on their dietary intake and the means to comfortably support that to judge those who, on the surface, are making poor choices.
But poverty strips people of every little bit of themselves, mental illness increases, access to education often poorer and the ability intellectually and mentally, to change dietary habits becomes insurmountable when you're just trying to keep your life together as best you can.
Food deserts aren't necessarily the issue. Not having the means or ability to make a tiny little bit of money stretch far enough with fresh wholesome food is. Coupled with the abject misery of having to be so careful for years on end. Sometimes it's just easier to to grab a family size pasta tray bake for £3 and a packet of custard creams for 20p.
I've been there. I know how to cook and well, I can throw together a meal from virtually nothing (or at least used to be, damn cognitive issues) but when I was dirt poor crying about not being able to pay bills, my desire to get creative in the kitchen vanished. It might not be right but this whole culture of those who can afford to eat relatively well and pay their bills telling the poor to just manage their life and finances better is bullcrap.71 -
I agree entirely with @VintageFeline. There have been times I have eaten absolutely terribly. When I look back on those times, I can see how I physically could have done better- no-one was holding a gun to my head and forcing me to make the choices I was. But at the same time, I also remember how unhappy I was, and how each day felt like trudging through mud. Wise meal-planning was absolutely beyond me.
The fact I couldn't afford a proper cooker, never mind a freezer, and I was doing crazy overtime shifts probably didn't help, come to think of it. But that is the life many people lead.
The moment we bought our current house, we probably started eating a better diet, because the layout of the kitchen is better- more room, so much less oppressive. It's still not quite big enough for my spice jar collection
, but I mean, I can see them now. 10 -
VintageFeline wrote: »I think there is a tendency for those with a grasp on their dietary intake and the means to comfortably support that to judge those who, on the surface, are making poor choices.
But poverty strips people of every little bit of themselves, mental illness increases, access to education often poorer and the ability intellectually and mentally, to change dietary habits becomes insurmountable when you're just trying to keep your life together as best you can.
Food deserts aren't necessarily the issue. Not having the means or ability to make a tiny little bit of money stretch far enough with fresh wholesome food is. Coupled with the abject misery of having to be so careful for years on end. Sometimes it's just easier to to grab a family size pasta tray bake for £3 and a packet of custard creams for 20p.
I've been there. I know how to cook and well, I can throw together a meal from virtually nothing (or at least used to be, damn cognitive issues) but when I was dirt poor crying about not being able to pay bills, my desire to get creative in the kitchen vanished. It might not be right but this whole culture of those who can afford to eat relatively well and pay their bills telling the poor to just manage their life and finances better is bullcrap.
I've been on both sides. You know what happened when I was working a low paying manual labor job and living in my truck, only able to eat McDonald's dollar menu crap twice per day? I lost 30 lbs. in three months. I got fatter again when I started being able to afford more food the following season.
Then I realized what needed to be done, and fixed the problem again. Physics gives not a single damn about your income bracket.3 -
Gallowmere1984 wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »I think there is a tendency for those with a grasp on their dietary intake and the means to comfortably support that to judge those who, on the surface, are making poor choices.
But poverty strips people of every little bit of themselves, mental illness increases, access to education often poorer and the ability intellectually and mentally, to change dietary habits becomes insurmountable when you're just trying to keep your life together as best you can.
Food deserts aren't necessarily the issue. Not having the means or ability to make a tiny little bit of money stretch far enough with fresh wholesome food is. Coupled with the abject misery of having to be so careful for years on end. Sometimes it's just easier to to grab a family size pasta tray bake for £3 and a packet of custard creams for 20p.
I've been there. I know how to cook and well, I can throw together a meal from virtually nothing (or at least used to be, damn cognitive issues) but when I was dirt poor crying about not being able to pay bills, my desire to get creative in the kitchen vanished. It might not be right but this whole culture of those who can afford to eat relatively well and pay their bills telling the poor to just manage their life and finances better is bullcrap.
I've been on both sides. You know what happened when I was working a low paying manual labor job and living in my truck, only able to eat McDonald's dollar menu crap twice per day? I lost 30 lbs. in three months. I got fatter again when I started being able to afford more food the following season.
Then I realized what needed to be done, and fixed the problem again. Physics gives not a single damn about your income bracket.
No it doesn't. But you had a very physical job. Not everyone does.
Obesity is about a lot more than physics and ignoring that isn't useful.17 -
VintageFeline wrote: »Gallowmere1984 wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »I think there is a tendency for those with a grasp on their dietary intake and the means to comfortably support that to judge those who, on the surface, are making poor choices.
But poverty strips people of every little bit of themselves, mental illness increases, access to education often poorer and the ability intellectually and mentally, to change dietary habits becomes insurmountable when you're just trying to keep your life together as best you can.
Food deserts aren't necessarily the issue. Not having the means or ability to make a tiny little bit of money stretch far enough with fresh wholesome food is. Coupled with the abject misery of having to be so careful for years on end. Sometimes it's just easier to to grab a family size pasta tray bake for £3 and a packet of custard creams for 20p.
I've been there. I know how to cook and well, I can throw together a meal from virtually nothing (or at least used to be, damn cognitive issues) but when I was dirt poor crying about not being able to pay bills, my desire to get creative in the kitchen vanished. It might not be right but this whole culture of those who can afford to eat relatively well and pay their bills telling the poor to just manage their life and finances better is bullcrap.
I've been on both sides. You know what happened when I was working a low paying manual labor job and living in my truck, only able to eat McDonald's dollar menu crap twice per day? I lost 30 lbs. in three months. I got fatter again when I started being able to afford more food the following season.
Then I realized what needed to be done, and fixed the problem again. Physics gives not a single damn about your income bracket.
No it doesn't. But you had a very physical job. Not everyone does.
Obesity is about a lot more than physics and ignoring that isn't useful.
It wasn't that physical. I wasn't slogging bricks or anything. Truthfully, about 70% of any given day was spent driving between job sites, and when we were working, it was just shoveling asphalt from a skidsteer bucket.
It is about more, but adding unnecessary variable just muddies the whole thing, and is dishonest. If it were truly about poverty and limited access to healthier food choices, we'd see this epidemic everywhere. We don't. It's only in Western civilization, where we treat our poor like yappy pet dogs. "Here's food, go away until it's time for you to be fed again."3 -
jennybearlv wrote: »In my experience living in Nevada more affluent areas have more supermarkets. As income in an area drops, the supermarkets close. I'm not sure this happens everywhere, but it happened to me a few times when I lived in Las Vegas. I was lucky enough to own a car.
This pattern is true in Chicago, although there are various efforts to change that and it's quite location-dependent (and public transportation is pretty good). I think the food desert as explanation for obesity is wrong, period, as I said in the other thread where this came out of (I think), but if you compare the grocery store (vs. merely convenience stores, liquor stores, fast food) in various neighborhoods there is an unsurprising pattern. (Also, nothing surprising or ominous about why it is, IMO.)
I do pretty much agree with the John McWhorter piece, although I think there are areas where good food is not nearly as easily available (I've been to some)--IMO it's not that there are no food deserts but that they are not the reason for the obesity problem. I'm reading the study discussed in the Kolata article, since it raised a few questions (specifically I am sure inner cities have more supermarkets within 2 miles or some such than the average upper middle class suburb in many cases, but that's not relevant when the car culture is different -- I live in an upper middle class urban neighborhood, and 2 miles from a supermarket would be extremely far and not normal, so the comparison should be between like places or take into account travel patterns and timing of public transportation).1 -
One thing that I think should be underscored is just how *tiring* it is to be low income sometimes. When I was a teenager, we were pretty poor. The adults and teenagers in my family were all either working two jobs or working and going to school. The meals my mom and dad would spend more time on when I was younger just sort of fell by the wayside because nobody seemed to have the energy to plan the meals and prepare them.
Another factor is that we often didn't have a time when the family could all sit down together -- we were eating in smaller groups or alone and that can often discourage more careful meal planning and prep. And I know the foods my parents were choosing were biased towards the things that A. they could afford and B. they were confident they could get the younger kids to eat. If you don't have much money for food, I think you're less inclined to spend it on something that your kids might reject. And if you can't get your kids the other things they might want, things you can't afford, I imagine it may feel good to at least buy them foods that they enjoy, even when it may not be the best long-term plan.
I remember that time in my life and my meals were things like a pastry from a vending machine at school, an egg sandwich before work, and then chicken strips and french fries at work. Of course one could maintain a healthy weight on those foods assuming calories were in order, but mine weren't. And I was doing things like drinking lots of full calorie soda when I was at work, because it was free and it boosted my energy.
Do people with higher incomes get tired too? Absolutely. Now that I'm better off, I sometimes still work lots of hours or have a weird schedule. But I have more of a buffer to deal with it -- I have better appliances to help with meal prep, I have the free time to plan out my meals each Sunday and take the week's events into account. It feels totally different than the trapped "I'm not sure if my car is going to start and we don't have enough food in the house to help everyone feel full" feeling I often had back then.
My point isn't that lower income people don't have choices -- I obviously made choices every day and I could have chosen different things. But there are many different forces operating on those choices (just as there are many different forces operating on my choices today now that I'm in a different situation).37 -
Some more articles/studies of possible interest:
https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/11/food-deserts/414534/ (consistent with the ones in the OP)
Linked in the article:
http://chicagopolicyreview.org/2015/10/26/if-you-build-it-they-wont-come-why-eliminating-food-deserts-wont-close-the-nutrition-gap/
http://cityobservatory.org/food-deserts/
http://nutritionj.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1475-2891-12-117 (supermarkets and BMI, no link)
https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2014/09/access-to-real-food-as-privilege/379482/
http://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/1899558 (Trends in Dietary Quality in the US 1999-2010)
Also: https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2014/12/who-looks-at-menu-labels/383320/ (I just thought this was interesting.)1 -
Oh good. I knew I'd seen an article that debunked the theory that lower income people buy less nutritious food due to lack of education. Here it is: https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/01/rich-kids-healthier-foods/431646/
"What they found was striking: Those with the most education and those with the least education had extremely similar understandings of how healthy (or unhealthy) sugar, fiber, and saturated fat were. But the big difference between these two groups was that more-educated people liked the taste of more-nutritious foods—foods lower in sugar, lower in saturated fat, and higher in fiber—than less-educated people.
This pattern is hard to accept at first, because it goes against the way a lot of people think about nutrition: The reason that more-educated people have healthier diets may not be because they have more of an appreciation for the importance of a good diet, but because to an extent they’re following their palates. This explanation undoes a basic assumption about healthy eating—that for everyone, a better diet is a matter of overcoming the temptation of salty, sweet, and fatty foods.
Instead, better-educated people might be being somewhat indulgent and pleasure-seeking when they buy food. They just happen to have a preference for different sorts of foods—foods they might have been exposed to when they were growing up."
On the other hand, I do have something of a theory, that goes along with the piece on calories I linked in my prior post. I think that it's possible that less educated consumers may have more of an all or nothing assumption -- they have to stop eating EVERYTHING they like, that it's not calories but avoiding all bad foods, they may understand they shouldn't overdo sugar, sat fat, etc., but further think that they can't eat any of it, so good nutrition feels too hard and too extreme.
But obviously more research is needed, and you certainly find those attitudes among the better educated too.5 -
I think it comes down to lack of structure. There is not structure in many of these places. Look at the crime statistics - school scores you name it. It screams no structure. A good diet is a function of structure. You must plan - prepare - make choices. When you dont plan and prepare food its very easy to fall into the trap of less than optimal food. Case in point - when I bring my lunch - I tend to lose weight -when go out each day for lunch - lbs start to appear. Not really hard to figure out. Also in this day and age - the word poverty needs some context. I would be willing to bet that in the worst of neighborhoods in this country - you will find many iPhones and large data plans with internet access. In most cases it comes down to the choices you make in life. Food Deserts is a catchy word that allows the Govt to take more control and thus tax dollars. Congress does not care how fat people are - they only care about power.4
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VintageFeline wrote: »Gallowmere1984 wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »I think there is a tendency for those with a grasp on their dietary intake and the means to comfortably support that to judge those who, on the surface, are making poor choices.
But poverty strips people of every little bit of themselves, mental illness increases, access to education often poorer and the ability intellectually and mentally, to change dietary habits becomes insurmountable when you're just trying to keep your life together as best you can.
Food deserts aren't necessarily the issue. Not having the means or ability to make a tiny little bit of money stretch far enough with fresh wholesome food is. Coupled with the abject misery of having to be so careful for years on end. Sometimes it's just easier to to grab a family size pasta tray bake for £3 and a packet of custard creams for 20p.
I've been there. I know how to cook and well, I can throw together a meal from virtually nothing (or at least used to be, damn cognitive issues) but when I was dirt poor crying about not being able to pay bills, my desire to get creative in the kitchen vanished. It might not be right but this whole culture of those who can afford to eat relatively well and pay their bills telling the poor to just manage their life and finances better is bullcrap.
I've been on both sides. You know what happened when I was working a low paying manual labor job and living in my truck, only able to eat McDonald's dollar menu crap twice per day? I lost 30 lbs. in three months. I got fatter again when I started being able to afford more food the following season.
Then I realized what needed to be done, and fixed the problem again. Physics gives not a single damn about your income bracket.
No it doesn't. But you had a very physical job. Not everyone does.
Obesity is about a lot more than physics and ignoring that isn't useful.
I sit at a desk all day and am not fat or struggling with my weight. I also eat much better and cheaper than I did when I was poor, because I'm smarter now. Vegetables aren't expensive, particularly if you're in an urban area that has ethnic markets. But even at a regular grocery store (and I'm in Vegas, where everything has to be shipped in) it's not expensive. The salads w/chicken I eat for lunch every day cost <$2 to make - you're not going to beat that at McDonalds. In fact, I'm not sure I ever make a meal at home that costs more than $3-4, unless it includes a big piece of steak or some shrimp.
Eating well is cheap, as long as you educate yourself.
Also, obesity is entirely about physics. Unused energy in the form of calories is stored in the body as fat. Reduce the energy entering the system and/or increase the energy being expended via exercise, and you reduce the energy being stored. There is no way around this.
6 -
xmichaelyx wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »Gallowmere1984 wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »I think there is a tendency for those with a grasp on their dietary intake and the means to comfortably support that to judge those who, on the surface, are making poor choices.
But poverty strips people of every little bit of themselves, mental illness increases, access to education often poorer and the ability intellectually and mentally, to change dietary habits becomes insurmountable when you're just trying to keep your life together as best you can.
Food deserts aren't necessarily the issue. Not having the means or ability to make a tiny little bit of money stretch far enough with fresh wholesome food is. Coupled with the abject misery of having to be so careful for years on end. Sometimes it's just easier to to grab a family size pasta tray bake for £3 and a packet of custard creams for 20p.
I've been there. I know how to cook and well, I can throw together a meal from virtually nothing (or at least used to be, damn cognitive issues) but when I was dirt poor crying about not being able to pay bills, my desire to get creative in the kitchen vanished. It might not be right but this whole culture of those who can afford to eat relatively well and pay their bills telling the poor to just manage their life and finances better is bullcrap.
I've been on both sides. You know what happened when I was working a low paying manual labor job and living in my truck, only able to eat McDonald's dollar menu crap twice per day? I lost 30 lbs. in three months. I got fatter again when I started being able to afford more food the following season.
Then I realized what needed to be done, and fixed the problem again. Physics gives not a single damn about your income bracket.
No it doesn't. But you had a very physical job. Not everyone does.
Obesity is about a lot more than physics and ignoring that isn't useful.
I sit at a desk all day and am not fat or struggling with my weight. I also eat much better and cheaper than I did when I was poor, because I'm smarter now. Vegetables aren't expensive, particularly if you're in an urban area that has ethnic markets. But even at a regular grocery store (and I'm in Vegas, where everything has to be shipped in) it's not expensive. The salads w/chicken I eat for lunch every day cost <$2 to make - you're not going to beat that at McDonalds. In fact, I'm not sure I ever make a meal at home that costs more than $3-4, unless it includes a big piece of steak or some shrimp.
Eating well is cheap, as long as you educate yourself.
Also, obesity is entirely about physics. Unused energy in the form of calories is stored in the body as fat. Reduce the energy entering the system and/or increase the energy being expended via exercise, and you reduce the energy being stored. There is no way around this.
You're missing my point. I said nothing about the cost of healthy eating, sure i mentioned a tray bake and biscuits (cookies) and in a single meal those can be cheaper than making yourself, financially and mentally. And if you read again, I mention other barriers, such as issues pertaining to planning ahead so that better meals are more affordable and more healthful.
I'm not disputing that physiologically obesity comes from an excess consumption of calories. My point is about socio-economic and psychological barriers. Those cannot be ignored when we talk about tackling obesity in the wider context.17 -
HeliumIsNoble wrote: »
This isn't my area of expertise, as I don't know what meat tastes like, but is this stuff that can be used to make meals that children going through a fussy phase will eat? Don't say "they'll eat when they're hungry" because some will, some won't.Gallowmere1984 wrote: »From my own past experience in the U.K., it is often cheaper to buy carbs, and junk or processed food than it is to buy fresh fruit and vegetables. You can for example, buy pasta/rice for many meals but a equivalent amount of veg (price-wise) might only give you 1-2 portions. Equally, things such as biscuits can be very cheap here. There may also be a correlation between income and education that affects diet.
I 100% agree. To go into Tesco and fill a basket with fresh fruit/veg is gonna cost more. Lean meat is always more expensive than high fat.
One example for my family is fajitas! We love them but they work out so expensive for 3 people.
Peppers €1.49
Onion €0.39
Mushrooms €0.99
Chicken €4.99
Wraps €0.79
Spices €1.00
Sweetcorn €0.50
Rice €.50
Total €10.65
Or a pre-packed ready meal full of salt, sugar and fat that can be microwaved = €1.00 each
It's crazy!!
None of which has anything to do with obesity, assuming that one understands and applies basic math to their energy needs. You know what happened when I was eating keto, and dropping 2-3 lbs. per week? My grocery bill went through the floor, because chicken thighs, organ meat and 73/27 ground beef are insanely cheap.
Organ meat, no (well, depends on the child, but usually not). Chicken thighs and fattier ground beef? Sure. With meat often the more expensive cuts are ones that adults will care about, not kids.0 -
VintageFeline wrote: »Food deserts aren't necessarily the issue. Not having the means or ability to make a tiny little bit of money stretch far enough with fresh wholesome food is. Coupled with the abject misery of having to be so careful for years on end. Sometimes it's just easier to to grab a family size pasta tray bake for £3 and a packet of custard creams for 20p.
I've been there. I know how to cook and well, I can throw together a meal from virtually nothing (or at least used to be, damn cognitive issues) but when I was dirt poor crying about not being able to pay bills, my desire to get creative in the kitchen vanished. It might not be right but this whole culture of those who can afford to eat relatively well and pay their bills telling the poor to just manage their life and finances better is bullcrap.
This plus the Orwell bit plus just everything that comes with constantly worrying about being able to pay bills and take care of kids and not missing work and perhaps working two part time jobs without health care from either, etc., I think are more the point.9
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