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The Urban Food Desert Myth
Replies
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daniellestellrecht wrote: »Besides the food dessert idea, this is missing the cost of fresh fruits and vegetables compared to the cost of processed food. It is also not accounting for the cost of a gym membership if an neighborhood does not have safe access to a park. It also does not account for the cost of health insurance for poorer populations who may not be able to afford to go to the doctor to regularly find out that they should be losing weight and the cost for a nutritionist. For those families that are working several jobs, putting food on the table regardless of what kind of food, because they are too tired or do not have access to the internet at home to research how to cook more nutritious meals....This is missing a lot about numerous studies linking obesity and poverty.
While their definition of a food dessert includes fast food and corner stores is different than many of the studies I have read. Most define the food dessert as not having access to fresh fruits and vegetables within a 1/4 mile walk as food dessert. I know that isn't true in my neighborhood. I also find that the fruits and vegetables at corner stores and fast food places are more expensive than processed food, even at grocery stores. So yes there are many, many factors going into the problem.
- a quarter mile is just three blocks. Seems an unreasonable standard to demand cities have a greengrocer every six blocks especially in neighborhoods where you apparently get shot as soon as you poke your nose out the door or some such.
- Convicts manage to get in fabulous shape in little tiny cells, so I am not sure why everyone needs access to an official gym to get started. I am going to start my own boot camp where I make people walk 2 mikes and carry 40 lbs of beans in a backpack. It is going to be VERY expensive to take my class.
- On the question of fresh produce, you may want to review this thread, in which it is established that canned and frozen veg are perfectly acceptable alternatives to fresh, and there is a lot of fresh available very economically. http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10527034/wish-fresh-veggies-werent-so-expensive/p1
- On the question of internet access, it is a shame that these communities have no lonely old ladies (or men) who would weep tears of joy to be able to spend time with a young person and share their cooking skills. Maybe someone with a PhD should get a grant and do a study to determine how people got recipes and skills before the interwebs were invented.9 -
Gallowmere1984 wrote: »
Try getting those home on a three switch bus line and 5 blocks walk in July though. and don't talk to me about those frozen ice packs that are so convenient!
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Gallowmere1984 wrote: »
Try getting those home on a three switch bus line and 5 blocks walk in July though. and don't talk to me about those frozen ice packs that are so convenient!
So some planning is required, maybe shop on the weekend with the trolly.
Having to plan things is a *kitten*, totally not fair to people.2 -
Gallowmere1984 wrote: »Yup, life's not fair to people who don't have cars. Obama's cash for clunker's program should have been used to give them cars, so life would be more equal.
But life isn't equal and people in suburbia and rural areas have their own set of issues, especially if they are poor.
This was something I had thought about. The focus is often in urban areas, but due to their very nature, things tend to be relatively close. One would think, the truly screwed are the poor who live in areas where it can be 60+ miles to a reasonably sized town. However, these people often tend to be cash poor, but environment resourceful, so to speak.
Exactly! I live on the west side of Buffalo, and have a bunch of grocery stores within 2 miles (and multiple bus lines much closer). I can't think of ANY areas w/in my city where you would be more than half a mile from a bus route that has a full-fledged supermarket on it. In comparison, getting to & from work generally requires a bunch of bus/subway transfers. If someone opts to be lazy and waddle 200 ft to the bodega for chips instead of grabbing a backpack and getting on the bus, that is totally on them. Many little old ladies manage to do it just fine with their pull carts. And no- when you are poor, you don't go to multiple stores...you go to the one that is most convenient of those with reasonable prices and deal with the selection they have.
Now, poor rural areas are a different story. You are pretty much screwed if you don't have a car outside of the city.
Other people tend to forget that people ate a certain way in the winter in the north for a reason. If it looks like the frozen tundra outside, don't *kitten* that strawberries and broccoli are expensive. No *kitten*. It's a luxury of the modern age that we can buy these items up here at all in the winter at any price. Traditional northern soup vegetables are generally quite cheap.Gallowmere1984 wrote: »Yup, life's not fair to people who don't have cars. Obama's cash for clunker's program should have been used to give them cars, so life would be more equal.
But life isn't equal and people in suburbia and rural areas have their own set of issues, especially if they are poor.
This was something I had thought about. The focus is often in urban areas, but due to their very nature, things tend to be relatively close. One would think, the truly screwed are the poor who live in areas where it can be 60+ miles to a reasonably sized town. However, these people often tend to be cash poor, but environment resourceful, so to speak.
Exactly! I live on the west side of Buffalo, and have a bunch of grocery stores within 2 miles (and multiple bus lines much closer). I can't think of ANY areas w/in my city where you would be more than half a mile from a bus route that has a full-fledged supermarket on it. In comparison, getting to & from work generally requires a bunch of bus/subway transfers. If someone opts to be lazy and waddle 200 ft to the bodega for chips instead of grabbing a backpack and getting on the bus, that is totally on them. Many little old ladies manage to do it just fine with their pull carts. And no- when you are poor, you don't go to multiple stores...you go to the one that is most convenient of those with reasonable prices and deal with the selection they have.
Now, poor rural areas are a different story. You are pretty much screwed if you don't have a car outside of the city.
Other people tend to forget that people ate a certain way in the winter in the north for a reason. If it looks like the frozen tundra outside, don't *kitten* that strawberries and broccoli are expensive. No *kitten*. It's a luxury of the modern age that we can buy these items up here at all in the winter at any price. Traditional northern soup vegetables are generally quite cheap.
The thing is Ritz, is that a bag of chips is just so much lighter to carry than a pound of potatoes when you have to take three or four public transits and wait in between and walk several blocks and up stairs to your shabby little apartment to and from the food source.
A lot bulkier though for what you get. . All that air takes up valuable space in a backpack compared to raw potatoes.
yeah, good words. Dried lentils could be the answer, not heavy, inexpensive, low volume, reasonably fast cooking bean with high value protien for a veg. so packable and their shelf life is good too.
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Gallowmere1984 wrote: »
Try getting those home on a three switch bus line and 5 blocks walk in July though. and don't talk to me about those frozen ice packs that are so convenient!
So some planning is required, maybe shop on the weekend with the trolly.
Having to plan things is a *kitten*, totally not fair to people.
I'm talking people with low incomes, no cars, long distance from food sources.
We didn't even mention elderly people who find some of the physical aspects of public transit and grocery shopping a little bit more difficult than normal.
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Gallowmere1984 wrote: »
Try getting those home on a three switch bus line and 5 blocks walk in July though. and don't talk to me about those frozen ice packs that are so convenient!
So some planning is required, maybe shop on the weekend with the trolly.
Having to plan things is a *kitten*, totally not fair to people.
They'd still melt. Being frozen and all that.......4 -
Theo, I think the definition of "food desert" has to be discussed not only in what you classify as food, but what you look at in terms of affordability and ability to buy even if the food exists there.
Poor areas tend to have less access to transportation in the city. 75% of our poorer superb dwellers (especially the minorities) rely on public transit and convenience stores that sell chips, crackers and white bread close to their homes to survive. Sure, that's considered food. But should it be? Other than the fact that they have calories and they're fortified with something doesn't make them something you should regularly eat. Does it matter that there's a supermarket 10 blocks away of it takes an hour to wait for a bus, 30 bus ride minutes, $2.50 one way and then the trip back with enough calories to keep you full for a week that have to fit into a few bags? Absolutely.
If bananas, spinach, oranges, nuts and cucumbers are available but too expensive to buy to last a whole week and too heavy to carry for poorer people, is it still considered a food desert? It should be. Plus, I find produce cheaper and of much better quality in the rich suburbs (I work in the biggest farmers market at the center of the city where everyone has access- but the rich suburbs have a huge price break) and those are places full of rather affluent folks With lots of cars and Very few buses. Because they don't have to take heavy bags on the bus, they can buy more fresh fruits and vegetables each week. And they have more money to buy more quantity to fill that trunk with. Turnover is greater and quality can improve. Poor people can carry crackers and chips on the bus. And bread. Maybe lunch meat if they're lucky. Their produce selection tends to stink because there's less turnover because you can't lug 40lbs of produce to feed a small family around when you use public transit. No impoverished person in their right mind is going to buy a wilted pepper, either. So the fresh foods supply is encouraged to go down.
Are you seeing the problem?
Next time you buy all your healthy, fresh food for the week- try walking home with it all. I promise that your arms will go numb after a block or two. This is the problem in my city. The one with too many farmers markets that folks drive to- except in the poorer suburbs because nobody can carry so much food so far each week and they don't have cars.6 -
French_Peasant wrote: »daniellestellrecht wrote: »Besides the food dessert idea, this is missing the cost of fresh fruits and vegetables compared to the cost of processed food. It is also not accounting for the cost of a gym membership if an neighborhood does not have safe access to a park. It also does not account for the cost of health insurance for poorer populations who may not be able to afford to go to the doctor to regularly find out that they should be losing weight and the cost for a nutritionist. For those families that are working several jobs, putting food on the table regardless of what kind of food, because they are too tired or do not have access to the internet at home to research how to cook more nutritious meals....This is missing a lot about numerous studies linking obesity and poverty.
While their definition of a food dessert includes fast food and corner stores is different than many of the studies I have read. Most define the food dessert as not having access to fresh fruits and vegetables within a 1/4 mile walk as food dessert. I know that isn't true in my neighborhood. I also find that the fruits and vegetables at corner stores and fast food places are more expensive than processed food, even at grocery stores. So yes there are many, many factors going into the problem.
- a quarter mile is just three blocks. Seems an unreasonable standard to demand cities have a greengrocer every six blocks especially in neighborhoods where you apparently get shot as soon as you poke your nose out the door or some such.
Two blocks in Chicago! That standard would put me in a food desert, and I have great access to groceries.On the question of internet access, it is a shame that these communities have no lonely old ladies (or men) who would weep tears of joy to be able to spend time with a young person and share their cooking skills. Maybe someone with a PhD should get a grant and do a study to determine how people got recipes and skills before the interwebs were invented.
Yes, but then I just feel old, since I never had the internet when I was learning to cook.
Also, both the internet and cookbooks are still at the public library.
I do think obesity and poverty are linked for reasons in part discussed in this thread. I don't think we have to blame the cost of gym memberships and the internet, though, or have unreasonable standards for how close a supermarket should be.
It would be interesting to compare with 1955 on some of this stuff. My guess is that people had to walk farther, on average, but in some neighborhoods there probably would have been more options. But that would be contrasted with the fact food in general was less available and more expensive.2 -
Gallowmere1984 wrote: »
Try getting those home on a three switch bus line and 5 blocks walk in July though. and don't talk to me about those frozen ice packs that are so convenient!
For what percentage of people would this be required to get home from a supermarket? Remember the definition of the food desert in the US according to the USDA is more than 1 mile in an urban area and more than 10 miles in a rural area. For the latter I can imagine it's tough to get good public transportation, of course.
And part of the issue with the fresh berries being expensive is it's March. They are generally much cheaper in July (although I think they are cheaper now here -- the pint of blackberries for 69 cents I mentioned aren't too hard to carry).0 -
i think where I live could be called a food desert, even though it is actually a valley. We have no local produce in the winter time unless one chooses to consider tree parts as produce. Any produce in the grocery stores is shipped in from parts most often unknown and is pretty much tasteless.
It is also about 5 miles from our house to the nearest grocery store. And we do not live in a "poverty area". Just the older end of town.
Most of my friends can/freeze produce when available. I buy canned/frozen, because I'm older and lazy. Been there done that.1 -
VintageFeline wrote: »Gallowmere1984 wrote: »
Try getting those home on a three switch bus line and 5 blocks walk in July though. and don't talk to me about those frozen ice packs that are so convenient!
So some planning is required, maybe shop on the weekend with the trolly.
Having to plan things is a *kitten*, totally not fair to people.
They'd still melt. Being frozen and all that.......
I use an insulated bag for my frozen stuff, bring it into the store so things don't melt while I'm still wandering the aisles shopping. I would expect someone lugging food to have figured out a solution to insulate their frozen goods. Just packing frozen veggies together and wrapping in a towel does wonders.0 -
This popped up in my FB memories today. Tell me a poor person would choose the blueberries when they have 4 mouths to feed. I dare you
Why is the choice only expensive fresh blueberries likely shipped at great expense due to their fragile nature vs. boxed mac & cheese? Seriously? No one EVER says "Oh I have enough money I can buy either blueberries or mac & cheese" . That's absurd. It's more like "The kids complain whenever I cook so I give them mac & cheese because they don't complain".
Honestly, when you're poor, blueberries are DEFINITELY a luxury item. This has nothing to do with the distance to the grocery store (the definition of "food desert"). You eat a lot of apples, oranges and bananas. There's nothing wrong with apples, oranges and bananas. There's plenty of cheap, easily cooked food. If you can mix up a box of mac & cheese or reheat a frozen dinner in a microwave, you have the means to cook a LOT of things.
I'm looking at the weekly ad from Aldi's
69 cents/lb chicken drumsticks
79 cents/lb fresh green beans
99 cents / cantaloupe
$1.99 / 3-lb bag pink lady apples
Over at Walmart and Walgreens, we have 64 cents/dozen eggs. I can get milk at the local Super-America for $1.99 / gallon (it's $2.38 / gallon at Walmart ).
This stuff is way cheaper than a processed meal.9 -
I get so irritated because this seems like a type of bigotry of low expectations going on here. Oh the poor are too dumb or stupid to figure out that rice and beans and chicken legs/thighs will stretch a budget a lot farther, and too lazy to cook (although they can run a microwave), and too unknowledgeable to realize that much packaged food is selling a lot of salt and fat and little else.
That's probably not what any individual poster intended, but that's what I, as someone who has spent the majority of their life on an exceptionally tight budget, who has walked or biked more than 3 miles to the grocery store, and used public transit when available for the same trips, as someone who has grown tomatoes in pots and rented an unwatered garden plot that I had to haul water in during the summer by the jug; that's what I hear.12 -
southernoregongrape wrote: »i think where I live could be called a food desert, even though it is actually a valley. We have no local produce in the winter time unless one chooses to consider tree parts as produce.
Wouldn't most northern places have no or limited local produce in the winter? (This is one reason I always get annoyed when people suggest that "processing" is bad -- it, and other unnatural things like bringing food in from far away, has really made produce more available for the majority of us who live in northern climates.)It is also about 5 miles from our house to the nearest grocery store. And we do not live in a "poverty area". Just the older end of town.
As I noted before, the definition (USDA, anyway) is more than 10 miles in a rural area, more than 1 mile in an urban area (well, technically it's more complicated, has to do with percentage in your census tract who fits those), but in addition to that it takes into account % in the tract who own cars or who have a low income. Under the alternative .5 mile considered for an urban area, mine would be a "food desert" under the distance and car elements, but then would be disqualified since it's not a low income tract (upper middle class, instead). If yours is not in a poverty area it probably would be too, and of course if people have cars it also would be.
It would also be really goofy to include my area even on the availability criteria, since it's really easy to get to a store. (For the record I say this as someone who regularly walks 1.5 miles to one store and walks a mile there and back to another, although more often I combine with my commute so I can walk just one way. Today I walked 1.25 miles to church and then .5 miles from there to a store about a mile from my house and then considered walking home but I had bought a bunch of heavy things and my legs were tired from my long run earlier so I decided to take the bus home.)
It definitely is more of a problem and the food on offer is worse in other areas of the city, no question. I'm not denying that.2 -
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zachbonner_ wrote: »
This popped up in my FB memories today. Tell me a poor person would choose the blueberries when they have 4 mouths to feed. I dare you
Why is the choice only expensive fresh blueberries likely shipped at great expense due to their fragile nature vs. boxed mac & cheese? Seriously? No one EVER says "Oh I have enough money I can buy either blueberries or mac & cheese" . That's absurd. It's more like "The kids complain whenever I cook so I give them mac & cheese because they don't complain".
Honestly, when you're poor, blueberries are DEFINITELY a luxury item. This has nothing to do with the distance to the grocery store (the definition of "food desert"). You eat a lot of apples, oranges and bananas. There's nothing wrong with apples, oranges and bananas. There's plenty of cheap, easily cooked food. If you can mix up a box of mac & cheese or reheat a frozen dinner in a microwave, you have the means to cook a LOT of things.
I'm looking at the weekly ad from Aldi's
69 cents/lb chicken drumsticks
79 cents/lb fresh green beans
99 cents / cantaloupe
$1.99 / 3-lb bag pink lady apples
Over at Walmart and Walgreens, we have 64 cents/dozen eggs. I can get milk at the local Super-America for $1.99 / gallon (it's $2.38 / gallon at Walmart ).
This stuff is way cheaper than a processed meal.
meat and veg are cheap as *kitten* where you live
Yup. A little different because I'm in the UK but the disparity in cost of food within the same supermarket chain across the country is amazing. I had a conversation come up in my memories recently. A friend in the north of England posted a variety of items and asked how much we reckoned it was (those of us in the south east, me in London), it would be 3x more down here. And yet minimum wage and welfare payments (which too many people have to rely on due to high cost of housing, poor opportunities for most due to the current jobs market and poor wages) are the same across the board. So two people with the same income and same food budget but one in the south another in the north can afford vastly different amounts of food. A third less food in the south.
So it is also about seeing that disparity in cost of living and just buying what's on special. And what is usually on special after maybe 3 varieties of veg? High calorie hyper palatable food with an appealing longer shelf life. And if you have kids, you want them to at least have something to look forward to and also in part to appease the guilt you feel for not being able to better provide for them.
I all that necessarily right? Have we who have been on the breadline done "better" with our limited incomes? Maybe. But we also can't overlook the misery of living in perpetual poverty with government policy designed to punish those at the bottom. Life is grim, tasty food that is quick and easy will be appealing for many.7 -
Those categories cover a lot more people than you might think. There are lot of people who look physically in prime health, but aren't. Case in point being one of my in-laws who has had lifelong back issues, leading up to a slipped disc (possibly two?). She now has metal plates in her spine, along with strict instructions from her surgeon not to put strain on her back! She's a fair bit under 75, too.Gallowmere1984 wrote: »After reading these last few posts, I think I am starting to see the real problem.
Unless you are 75, physically handicapped, or a literal midget, there is no reason in the world why walking a couple of miles while carrying 20-30 pounds in a duffel should be considered unreasonable. Holy *kitten* people are lazy as *kitten*.
I also wouldn't call 20-30 pounds a weekly shop for a family of four. As it happens, this morning, I cycled to a supermarket that's 2.3 miles from my house, for the sake of its wider stock and lower prices (for some items). This isn't something I do at the drop of a hat, because I can only do this when I'm free and the children are with someone else, or at school.
I didn't really buy anything like a weekly shop at all, so I would call what I got a "moderate" shop. For me- I'm more tight-fisted about bus fares than most of my friends and family, and so tend to be more willing to carry heavier shopping further.
In the interests of science, I weighed it when I got back- 12.1kg, or 26lbs. "Pretty light", do I hear you say? Well wait up. This isn't just about weight, it is also about volume. For example, cauliflowers aren't that heavy, but they would take up a lot of room. The stuff I bought filled up two panniers on my bike, and my handbasket on the front.
As it happens, I have a 65 kilogram capacity (143.3 lb- more than I weigh, and certainly more than today's shop!) rucksack, which I use on a regular enough basis to know that my shopping today would not have fitted into it, if I had gone on foot.
Sidenote: really, I need at least a 75 kg capacity rucksack, but the 75 kg rucksacks I've tried on are too bulky for me to carry because I'm too short for them. I'm not a midget either.
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HeliumIsNoble wrote: »
Those categories cover a lot more people than you might think. There are lot of people who look physically in prime health, but aren't. Case in point being one of my in-laws who has had lifelong back issues, leading up to a slipped disc (possibly two?). She now has metal plates in her spine, along with strict instructions from her surgeon not to put strain on her back! She's a fair bit under 75, too.Gallowmere1984 wrote: »After reading these last few posts, I think I am starting to see the real problem.
Unless you are 75, physically handicapped, or a literal midget, there is no reason in the world why walking a couple of miles while carrying 20-30 pounds in a duffel should be considered unreasonable. Holy *kitten* people are lazy as *kitten*.
I also wouldn't call 20-30 pounds a weekly shop for a family of four. As it happens, this morning, I cycled to a supermarket that's 2.3 miles from my house, for the sake of its wider stock and lower prices (for some items). This isn't something I do at the drop of a hat, because I can only do this when I'm free and the children are with someone else, or at school.
I didn't really buy anything like a weekly shop at all, so I would call what I got a "moderate" shop. For me- I'm more tight-fisted about bus fares than most of my friends and family, and so tend to be more willing to carry heavier shopping further.
In the interests of science, I weighed it when I got back- 12.1kg, or 26lbs. "Pretty light", do I hear you say? Well wait up. This isn't just about weight, it is also about volume. For example, cauliflowers aren't that heavy, but they would take up a lot of room. The stuff I bought filled up two panniers on my bike, and my handbasket on the front.
As it happens, I have a 65 kilogram capacity (143.3 lb- more than I weigh, and certainly more than today's shop!) rucksack, which I use on a regular enough basis to know that my shopping today would not have fitted into it, if I had gone on foot.
Sidenote: really, I need at least a 75 kg capacity rucksack, but the 75 kg rucksacks I've tried on are too bulky for me to carry because I'm too short for them. I'm not a midget either.
This would be why I grocery shop almost daily, personally. It only adds about 30 minutes to the whole affair, and gives me further incentive to get off of my *kitten* and move.
This is something that I promise we'll probably never agree on, as walking 6 miles per day is what I consider bare minimum. On my "rest" days when I don't lift, I'm more likely to hit the 10-18 mile range.1 -
For myself, I was less thinking laziness, and more thinking about simply having nothing other than a microwave. Bed-sits and hostels with no full kitchen, emergency accommodation, broken cookers, et cetera.I get so irritated because this seems like a type of bigotry of low expectations going on here. Oh the poor are too dumb or stupid to figure out that rice and beans and chicken legs/thighs will stretch a budget a lot farther, and too lazy to cook (although they can run a microwave), and too unknowledgeable to realize that much packaged food is selling a lot of salt and fat and little else.
That's probably not what any individual poster intended, but that's what I, as someone who has spent the majority of their life on an exceptionally tight budget, who has walked or biked more than 3 miles to the grocery store, and used public transit when available for the same trips, as someone who has grown tomatoes in pots and rented an unwatered garden plot that I had to haul water in during the summer by the jug; that's what I hear.
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https://www.princeton.edu/main/news/archive/S37/75/69M50/index.xml?section=topstories
"Poverty and all its related concerns require so much mental energy that the poor have less remaining brainpower to devote to other areas of life, according to research based at Princeton University. As a result, people of limited means are more likely to make mistakes and bad decisions that may be amplified by — and perpetuate — their financial woes."6 -
Actually, I walk quite a bit as well. If I do absolutely nothing in the day but the bare minimum of being a responsible adult, I'm at 3 miles, through just taking the kids to school and back. As I am constantly shopping (at least it feels like it), due to not having a car, I'll be going much further than that per day...Gallowmere1984 wrote: »HeliumIsNoble wrote: »
Those categories cover a lot more people than you might think. There are lot of people who look physically in prime health, but aren't. Case in point being one of my in-laws who has had lifelong back issues, leading up to a slipped disc (possibly two?). She now has metal plates in her spine, along with strict instructions from her surgeon not to put strain on her back! She's a fair bit under 75, too.Gallowmere1984 wrote: »After reading these last few posts, I think I am starting to see the real problem.
Unless you are 75, physically handicapped, or a literal midget, there is no reason in the world why walking a couple of miles while carrying 20-30 pounds in a duffel should be considered unreasonable. Holy *kitten* people are lazy as *kitten*.
I also wouldn't call 20-30 pounds a weekly shop for a family of four. As it happens, this morning, I cycled to a supermarket that's 2.3 miles from my house, for the sake of its wider stock and lower prices (for some items). This isn't something I do at the drop of a hat, because I can only do this when I'm free and the children are with someone else, or at school.
I didn't really buy anything like a weekly shop at all, so I would call what I got a "moderate" shop. For me- I'm more tight-fisted about bus fares than most of my friends and family, and so tend to be more willing to carry heavier shopping further.
In the interests of science, I weighed it when I got back- 12.1kg, or 26lbs. "Pretty light", do I hear you say? Well wait up. This isn't just about weight, it is also about volume. For example, cauliflowers aren't that heavy, but they would take up a lot of room. The stuff I bought filled up two panniers on my bike, and my handbasket on the front.
As it happens, I have a 65 kilogram capacity (143.3 lb- more than I weigh, and certainly more than today's shop!) rucksack, which I use on a regular enough basis to know that my shopping today would not have fitted into it, if I had gone on foot.
Sidenote: really, I need at least a 75 kg capacity rucksack, but the 75 kg rucksacks I've tried on are too bulky for me to carry because I'm too short for them. I'm not a midget either.
This would be why I grocery shop almost daily, personally. It only adds about 30 minutes to the whole affair, and gives me further incentive to get off of my *kitten* and move.
This is something that I promise we'll probably never agree on, as walking 6 miles per day is what I consider bare minimum. On my "rest" days when I don't lift, I'm more likely to hit the 10-18 mile range.
But the point is that all this takes time. When the children aren't at school, I am confined much nearer to base, because they can't walk as far or as fast as me (my top walking speed is 6km per hour according to a treadmill, but I know from observation that my children can only manage about 1.2 km an hour) and we still need to fit in the rest of daily life, like homework, playing, school projects, having time to eat the fricking food we bought today...
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Gallowmere1984 wrote: »After reading these last few posts, I think I am starting to see the real problem.
Unless you are 75, physically handicapped, or a literal midget, there is no reason in the world why walking a couple of miles while carrying 20-30 pounds in a duffel should be considered unreasonable. Holy *kitten* people are lazy as *kitten*.
Or you're heavily pregnant, have an infant/toddler, or a child who is unwilling to walk. Heck, I wouldn't be shocked if neighbors called CPS on you after one of your older preschoolers had a tantrum over having to walk.
On the other hand, walking through a poor neighborhood with a full duffel bag (or a store with an empty duffel) looks a bit suspicious. How many people are willing to bring attention to themselves over some lettuce?9 -
Gallowmere1984 wrote: »HeliumIsNoble wrote: »
Those categories cover a lot more people than you might think. There are lot of people who look physically in prime health, but aren't. Case in point being one of my in-laws who has had lifelong back issues, leading up to a slipped disc (possibly two?). She now has metal plates in her spine, along with strict instructions from her surgeon not to put strain on her back! She's a fair bit under 75, too.Gallowmere1984 wrote: »After reading these last few posts, I think I am starting to see the real problem.
Unless you are 75, physically handicapped, or a literal midget, there is no reason in the world why walking a couple of miles while carrying 20-30 pounds in a duffel should be considered unreasonable. Holy *kitten* people are lazy as *kitten*.
I also wouldn't call 20-30 pounds a weekly shop for a family of four. As it happens, this morning, I cycled to a supermarket that's 2.3 miles from my house, for the sake of its wider stock and lower prices (for some items). This isn't something I do at the drop of a hat, because I can only do this when I'm free and the children are with someone else, or at school.
I didn't really buy anything like a weekly shop at all, so I would call what I got a "moderate" shop. For me- I'm more tight-fisted about bus fares than most of my friends and family, and so tend to be more willing to carry heavier shopping further.
In the interests of science, I weighed it when I got back- 12.1kg, or 26lbs. "Pretty light", do I hear you say? Well wait up. This isn't just about weight, it is also about volume. For example, cauliflowers aren't that heavy, but they would take up a lot of room. The stuff I bought filled up two panniers on my bike, and my handbasket on the front.
As it happens, I have a 65 kilogram capacity (143.3 lb- more than I weigh, and certainly more than today's shop!) rucksack, which I use on a regular enough basis to know that my shopping today would not have fitted into it, if I had gone on foot.
Sidenote: really, I need at least a 75 kg capacity rucksack, but the 75 kg rucksacks I've tried on are too bulky for me to carry because I'm too short for them. I'm not a midget either.
This would be why I grocery shop almost daily, personally. It only adds about 30 minutes to the whole affair, and gives me further incentive to get off of my *kitten* and move.
This is why that study discussed at the beginning of the thread may be more valuable than just looking at distance. For example, as a long-time city resident, I never really did the "do all my shopping on the weekend" since I didn't have a car for years. I would stop on the way home from work a few times a week, since it's basically on the way or not too far out of it. I suspect this is the same for lots of city-dwellers, including those who live in places that would qualify as a food desert. There's also the question of whether they work in a place that is more convenient to stores than where they live.
Again, I think there are reasons why being poor makes the energy it may take to focus on health and nutrition harder, but this thread was started to discuss the idea that the main problem is "food deserts." IMO, asserting that it is suggests that the problem would be solved if stores in poor neighborhoods were only better/closer and the evidence is that's not so.
Some people have also jumped in to make comments about the poor being to blame, etc., and that we shouldn't be concerned because it's just will-power, etc., and I want to be clear again that that's not my argument, but I think some of the focus on food deserts is misplaced or unrealistic (we are never going to have mega supermarkets and the ability to buy for cheap in bulk within 2 blocks of where everyone lives -- those kind of supermarkets aren't even near where I live -- which is also why I tried to open the discussion to what existed in, say, the 1950s).1 -
FreyasRebirth wrote: »Gallowmere1984 wrote: »After reading these last few posts, I think I am starting to see the real problem.
Unless you are 75, physically handicapped, or a literal midget, there is no reason in the world why walking a couple of miles while carrying 20-30 pounds in a duffel should be considered unreasonable. Holy *kitten* people are lazy as *kitten*.
Or you're heavily pregnant, have an infant/toddler, or a child who is unwilling to walk. Heck, I wouldn't be shocked if neighbors called CPS on you after one of your older preschoolers had a tantrum over having to walk.
On the other hand, walking through a poor neighborhood with a full duffel bag (or a store with an empty duffel) looks a bit suspicious. How many people are willing to bring attention to themselves over some lettuce?
[1] IDK. I think most people in poorer city areas are more apt to mind their own damn business and care more about their own lives than what their neighbors are doing. (Not so many bored housewives/SAHM's with nothing better to do than watch the neighbors). I've never seen a kid have a temper tantrum over walking...when you grow up well aware that this is the only way to get from point A to point B, it is second nature. I think the temper tanrum would be more of an issue with the spoiled suburban kid used to being ferried around by car or who wants to stay home and play video games. (though, in fairness, I should point out that most of the children walking with their parents in my neighborhood are refugees, so the walk up to the store is really, really, really not going to be seen as a hardship).
[2] No. not really suspicious at all. Bags and carts are common..people need to get stuff from point A to point B. Any local looking at someone carrying a heavy bag would assume work clothes/equipment and/or gym and/or laundry and/or groceries. (The random suburbanite driving through or going to one of the bars/clubs might potentially think they are suspicious - they are so laughably adorable sometimes).
[on original] I regularly walked long distances (or took buses) hauling heavy books or groceries or laundry as a child, and I am still only 4'10" -- I think the healthy midgets would do just fine. ;P
(Laundry and getting to/from work or the university are WAY WAY bigger P.I.T.A.'s than the grocery store). Try getting up at still night to take 2 buses and a subway to drop kids at the 1 daycare center you can (almost, but not quite) afford, then taking a few more busses to get to work - and doing this twice a day everyday. Or hauling laundry (at least nowadays there are frequent dollar stores that carry cheap rolling luggage that can be used for this purpose - I would've loved one of those when I was a kid). In comparison, grocery shopping is nothing. I think people really have gotten so much lazier nowadays in this car culture. The older urban generation would have thought nothing of walking to their destination (they didn't know anything else)(neither did I when I was a child). And unfortunately, convenience foods have been around for so long, that an entire generation (or 2) doesn't really know how to cook. Prior generations would have had no problem throwing together a soup with whatever limited root vegetables & meat they could get their hands on in the winter. Hell- there are probably still a few folks around who remember making dandelion soup during the depression.2 -
This popped up in my FB memories today. Tell me a poor person would choose the blueberries when they have 4 mouths to feed. I dare you
Why is the choice only expensive fresh blueberries likely shipped at great expense due to their fragile nature vs. boxed mac & cheese? Seriously? No one EVER says "Oh I have enough money I can buy either blueberries or mac & cheese" . That's absurd. It's more like "The kids complain whenever I cook so I give them mac & cheese because they don't complain".
Honestly, when you're poor, blueberries are DEFINITELY a luxury item. This has nothing to do with the distance to the grocery store (the definition of "food desert"). You eat a lot of apples, oranges and bananas. There's nothing wrong with apples, oranges and bananas. There's plenty of cheap, easily cooked food. If you can mix up a box of mac & cheese or reheat a frozen dinner in a microwave, you have the means to cook a LOT of things.
I'm looking at the weekly ad from Aldi's
69 cents/lb chicken drumsticks
79 cents/lb fresh green beans
99 cents / cantaloupe
$1.99 / 3-lb bag pink lady apples
Over at Walmart and Walgreens, we have 64 cents/dozen eggs. I can get milk at the local Super-America for $1.99 / gallon (it's $2.38 / gallon at Walmart ).
This stuff is way cheaper than a processed meal.
I am solidly middle class and I consider fresh berries to be a luxury item. I buy them as a treat because, as much as I enjoy them, they often cost so much compared to other fruits. When I was growing up, we only had fresh berries when we or someone we knew grew them. Even when they're on sale now, I still feel like I'm splurging when I buy them.4 -
Most of us think we're middle class, but honestly, most of us are not in the 3rd quintile of incomes in our country. If you expand "middle" to include 2nd and 4th quintiles of income, someone's going to start griping about net wealth, and there's no discernible difference between 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th quintiles of net wealth. All that to intro my thoughts about my cousin living in a village in Uganda, where the ground is fertile the farms are small and the produce is abundant and fresh. They're not fat over there, not the first quintile of income, not the5th.1
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Gallowmere1984 wrote: »After reading these last few posts, I think I am starting to see the real problem.
Unless you are 75, physically handicapped, or a literal midget, there is no reason in the world why walking a couple of miles while carrying 20-30 pounds in a duffel should be considered unreasonable. Holy *kitten* people are lazy as *kitten*.
In this thread on this topic, I see a lot of the soft bigotry of low expectations for what 'poor folk' should be expected capable of doing.2 -
JeromeBarry1 wrote: »Most of us think we're middle class, but honestly, most of us are not in the 3rd quintile of incomes in our country. If you expand "middle" to include 2nd and 4th quintiles of income, someone's going to start griping about net wealth, and there's no discernible difference between 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th quintiles of net wealth. All that to intro my thoughts about my cousin living in a village in Uganda, where the ground is fertile the farms are small and the produce is abundant and fresh. They're not fat over there, not the first quintile of income, not the5th.
http://money.cnn.com/interactive/economy/middle-class-calculator/
According to this calculator, I'm not only in the middle class for my county and state, I'm smack dab in the middle of the middle class.
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Gallowmere1984 wrote: »After reading these last few posts, I think I am starting to see the real problem.
Unless you are 75, physically handicapped, or a literal midget, there is no reason in the world why walking a couple of miles while carrying 20-30 pounds in a duffel should be considered unreasonable. Holy *kitten* people are lazy as *kitten*.
Thanks that lets me off the hook. I'm 74, on SS and can not walk over 2 blocks without using my rescue inhaler. Luckily, we planned ahead and I can still afford to buy decent foods.3
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