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The Urban Food Desert Myth
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Gallowmere1984 wrote: »After reading these last few posts, I think I am starting to see the real problem.
Unless you are 75, physically handicapped, or a literal midget, there is no reason in the world why walking a couple of miles while carrying 20-30 pounds in a duffel should be considered unreasonable. Holy *kitten* people are lazy as *kitten*.
In this thread on this topic, I see a lot of the soft bigotry of low expectations for what 'poor folk' should be expected capable of doing.
I'm not so sure it's the low expectations of the poor on this thread. I think a lot of the middle-class suburban folk responding are thinking that way largely because they themselves grew up with cars and are so used to it that they would consider having to walk somewhere to be a hardship and are potentially too lazy to do such themselves. I see a lot of people posting on MFP for whom a 30-minute walk is a new-found exercise regime. That many urban people are actually used to walking/cycling/busing (having known nothing else) is apparently somewhat unthinkable.6 -
Do people not push small carts to the grocery when they have a lot to buy anywhere else but Texas? You can get them for a couple of bucks at a dollar store, and they fold up for storage or the ride to the grocery on the bus. They're narrow enough to take on a ride back, too - people here will usually help getting the cart on the bus if you have trouble, and the driver will help if others don't.
Hell, when I was living in Houston people who walked to the grocery often had actual grocery carts they pushed to and from the store. I was never sure if they were grabbing abandoned ones (I'd see them left under the overpasses and in the bayous), getting decommissioned ones from the grocery, or outright stealing them from the store, but it was a common sight.3 -
Do people not push small carts to the grocery when they have a lot to buy anywhere else but Texas? You can get them for a couple of bucks at a dollar store, and they fold up for storage or the ride to the grocery on the bus. They're narrow enough to take on a ride back, too - people here will usually help getting the cart on the bus if you have trouble, and the driver will help if others don't.
Hell, when I was living in Houston people who walked to the grocery often had actual grocery carts they pushed to and from the store. I was never sure if they were grabbing abandoned ones (I'd see them left under the overpasses and in the bayous), getting decommissioned ones from the grocery, or outright stealing them from the store, but it was a common sight.
Both are common around here.0 -
janejellyroll wrote: »JeromeBarry1 wrote: »Most of us think we're middle class, but honestly, most of us are not in the 3rd quintile of incomes in our country. If you expand "middle" to include 2nd and 4th quintiles of income, someone's going to start griping about net wealth, and there's no discernible difference between 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th quintiles of net wealth. All that to intro my thoughts about my cousin living in a village in Uganda, where the ground is fertile the farms are small and the produce is abundant and fresh. They're not fat over there, not the first quintile of income, not the5th.
http://money.cnn.com/interactive/economy/middle-class-calculator/
According to this calculator, I'm not only in the middle class for my county and state, I'm smack dab in the middle of the middle class.
Congratulations. For my county and state, I'm about 25% into the wide "middle" range for income.
My daughter started a job 10 days ago, I suppose I can add 30 hours of minimum wage to the household income and see how that affects it. Yep. That moves the household income up to about 40% into the wide middle.
And we're both in the top 1% globally.0 -
Potay-to, potah-to. You say "soft bigotry of low expectations", I say "making practical observations based on my life experiences, which has so far included homelessness hostels, low-paid shift-work and having children".Gallowmere1984 wrote: »After reading these last few posts, I think I am starting to see the real problem.
Unless you are 75, physically handicapped, or a literal midget, there is no reason in the world why walking a couple of miles while carrying 20-30 pounds in a duffel should be considered unreasonable. Holy *kitten* people are lazy as *kitten*.
In this thread on this topic, I see a lot of the soft bigotry of low expectations for what 'poor folk' should be expected capable of doing.
5 -
HeliumIsNoble wrote: »
Potay-to, potah-to. You say "soft bigotry of low expectations", I say "making practical observations based on my life experiences, which has so far included homelessness hostels, low-paid shift-work and having children".Gallowmere1984 wrote: »After reading these last few posts, I think I am starting to see the real problem.
Unless you are 75, physically handicapped, or a literal midget, there is no reason in the world why walking a couple of miles while carrying 20-30 pounds in a duffel should be considered unreasonable. Holy *kitten* people are lazy as *kitten*.
In this thread on this topic, I see a lot of the soft bigotry of low expectations for what 'poor folk' should be expected capable of doing.
While there's a sizeable transient /homeless person population, is nowhere near enough to justify the broad sweeping conclusions the literature about "food deserts" suggests need foundational and dramatic societal change and dramatic government intervention in dictating the location and pricing of food, among other things. This is part of a broader ideological disagreement about freedom and government control as framed by the Alinsky disciples.3 -
Presumably there is a shortage of folks with young kids, people working long hours for little money and people in accommodation with inadequate cooking facilities, too?HeliumIsNoble wrote: »
Potay-to, potah-to. You say "soft bigotry of low expectations", I say "making practical observations based on my life experiences, which has so far included homelessness hostels, low-paid shift-work and having children".Gallowmere1984 wrote: »After reading these last few posts, I think I am starting to see the real problem.
Unless you are 75, physically handicapped, or a literal midget, there is no reason in the world why walking a couple of miles while carrying 20-30 pounds in a duffel should be considered unreasonable. Holy *kitten* people are lazy as *kitten*.
In this thread on this topic, I see a lot of the soft bigotry of low expectations for what 'poor folk' should be expected capable of doing.
While there's a sizeable transient /homeless person population, is nowhere near enough to justify the broad sweeping conclusions the literature about "food deserts" suggests need foundational and dramatic societal change and dramatic government intervention in dictating the location and pricing of food, among other things. This is part of a broader ideological disagreement about freedom and government control as framed by the Alinsky disciples.
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HeliumIsNoble wrote: »
Presumably there is a shortage of folks with young kids, people working long hours for little money and people in accommodation with inadequate cooking facilities, too?HeliumIsNoble wrote: »
Potay-to, potah-to. You say "soft bigotry of low expectations", I say "making practical observations based on my life experiences, which has so far included homelessness hostels, low-paid shift-work and having children".Gallowmere1984 wrote: »After reading these last few posts, I think I am starting to see the real problem.
Unless you are 75, physically handicapped, or a literal midget, there is no reason in the world why walking a couple of miles while carrying 20-30 pounds in a duffel should be considered unreasonable. Holy *kitten* people are lazy as *kitten*.
In this thread on this topic, I see a lot of the soft bigotry of low expectations for what 'poor folk' should be expected capable of doing.
While there's a sizeable transient /homeless person population, is nowhere near enough to justify the broad sweeping conclusions the literature about "food deserts" suggests need foundational and dramatic societal change and dramatic government intervention in dictating the location and pricing of food, among other things. This is part of a broader ideological disagreement about freedom and government control as framed by the Alinsky disciples.
Only if you mean people who are so incapacitated by ordinary life that they are incapable of doing so much as heating a potato in a microwave instead of throwing money away on potato chips, and you believe it's society's fault, that their forced to make that choice. That's the real problem with these discussions. The one side frames it as a matter of pity when the goal is never to encourage any Empathy but instead encourage a mindset that no one is capable of making independent decisions about their lives.3 -
HeliumIsNoble wrote: »
Potay-to, potah-to. You say "soft bigotry of low expectations", I say "making practical observations based on my life experiences, which has so far included homelessness hostels, low-paid shift-work and having children".Gallowmere1984 wrote: »After reading these last few posts, I think I am starting to see the real problem.
Unless you are 75, physically handicapped, or a literal midget, there is no reason in the world why walking a couple of miles while carrying 20-30 pounds in a duffel should be considered unreasonable. Holy *kitten* people are lazy as *kitten*.
In this thread on this topic, I see a lot of the soft bigotry of low expectations for what 'poor folk' should be expected capable of doing.
At least you've acknowledged you have lowered expectations for them.
FYI, when training new teachers they teach having 'lowered expectations' is one of the main components that reduces the achievement of minorities in the classroom.7 -
HeliumIsNoble wrote: »
Presumably there is a shortage of folks with young kids, people working long hours for little money and people in accommodation with inadequate cooking facilities, too?HeliumIsNoble wrote: »
Potay-to, potah-to. You say "soft bigotry of low expectations", I say "making practical observations based on my life experiences, which has so far included homelessness hostels, low-paid shift-work and having children".Gallowmere1984 wrote: »After reading these last few posts, I think I am starting to see the real problem.
Unless you are 75, physically handicapped, or a literal midget, there is no reason in the world why walking a couple of miles while carrying 20-30 pounds in a duffel should be considered unreasonable. Holy *kitten* people are lazy as *kitten*.
In this thread on this topic, I see a lot of the soft bigotry of low expectations for what 'poor folk' should be expected capable of doing.
While there's a sizeable transient /homeless person population, is nowhere near enough to justify the broad sweeping conclusions the literature about "food deserts" suggests need foundational and dramatic societal change and dramatic government intervention in dictating the location and pricing of food, among other things. This is part of a broader ideological disagreement about freedom and government control as framed by the Alinsky disciples.
Only if you mean people who are so incapacitated by ordinary life that they are incapable of doing so much as heating a potato in a microwave instead of throwing money away on potato chips, and you believe it's society's fault, that their forced to make that choice. That's the real problem with these discussions. The one side frames it as a matter of pity when the goal is never to encourage any Empathy but instead encourage a mindset that no one is capable of making independent decisions about their lives.HeliumIsNoble wrote: »
Presumably there is a shortage of folks with young kids, people working long hours for little money and people in accommodation with inadequate cooking facilities, too?HeliumIsNoble wrote: »
Potay-to, potah-to. You say "soft bigotry of low expectations", I say "making practical observations based on my life experiences, which has so far included homelessness hostels, low-paid shift-work and having children".Gallowmere1984 wrote: »After reading these last few posts, I think I am starting to see the real problem.
Unless you are 75, physically handicapped, or a literal midget, there is no reason in the world why walking a couple of miles while carrying 20-30 pounds in a duffel should be considered unreasonable. Holy *kitten* people are lazy as *kitten*.
In this thread on this topic, I see a lot of the soft bigotry of low expectations for what 'poor folk' should be expected capable of doing.
While there's a sizeable transient /homeless person population, is nowhere near enough to justify the broad sweeping conclusions the literature about "food deserts" suggests need foundational and dramatic societal change and dramatic government intervention in dictating the location and pricing of food, among other things. This is part of a broader ideological disagreement about freedom and government control as framed by the Alinsky disciples.
Only if you mean people who are so incapacitated by ordinary life that they are incapable of doing so much as heating a potato in a microwave instead of throwing money away on potato chips, and you believe it's society's fault, that their forced to make that choice. That's the real problem with these discussions. The one side frames it as a matter of pity when the goal is never to encourage any Empathy but instead encourage a mindset that no one is capable of making independent decisions about their lives.
I think we've been reading different threads.HeliumIsNoble wrote: »
Presumably there is a shortage of folks with young kids, people working long hours for little money and people in accommodation with inadequate cooking facilities, too?HeliumIsNoble wrote: »
Potay-to, potah-to. You say "soft bigotry of low expectations", I say "making practical observations based on my life experiences, which has so far included homelessness hostels, low-paid shift-work and having children".Gallowmere1984 wrote: »After reading these last few posts, I think I am starting to see the real problem.
Unless you are 75, physically handicapped, or a literal midget, there is no reason in the world why walking a couple of miles while carrying 20-30 pounds in a duffel should be considered unreasonable. Holy *kitten* people are lazy as *kitten*.
In this thread on this topic, I see a lot of the soft bigotry of low expectations for what 'poor folk' should be expected capable of doing.
While there's a sizeable transient /homeless person population, is nowhere near enough to justify the broad sweeping conclusions the literature about "food deserts" suggests need foundational and dramatic societal change and dramatic government intervention in dictating the location and pricing of food, among other things. This is part of a broader ideological disagreement about freedom and government control as framed by the Alinsky disciples.
Only if you mean people who are so incapacitated by ordinary life that they are incapable of doing so much as heating a potato in a microwave instead of throwing money away on potato chips, and you believe it's society's fault, that their forced to make that choice. That's the real problem with these discussions. The one side frames it as a matter of pity when the goal is never to encourage any Empathy but instead encourage a mindset that no one is capable of making independent decisions about their lives.
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See, here's the thing. Them? For me, it's a we , and I feel kinda obligated to point out the subtleties of family life on a budget to people who maybe haven't been there.HeliumIsNoble wrote: »
Potay-to, potah-to. You say "soft bigotry of low expectations", I say "making practical observations based on my life experiences, which has so far included homelessness hostels, low-paid shift-work and having children".Gallowmere1984 wrote: »After reading these last few posts, I think I am starting to see the real problem.
Unless you are 75, physically handicapped, or a literal midget, there is no reason in the world why walking a couple of miles while carrying 20-30 pounds in a duffel should be considered unreasonable. Holy *kitten* people are lazy as *kitten*.
In this thread on this topic, I see a lot of the soft bigotry of low expectations for what 'poor folk' should be expected capable of doing.
At least you've acknowledged you have lowered expectations for them.
FYI, when training new teachers they teach having 'lowered expectations' is one of the main components that reduces the achievement of minorities in the classroom.
5 -
Not really. There's one side that says people can make their own decisions and are capable of making healthy choices even in challenging circumstances. Then the other side engages pity for the poor oppressed have-nots and explains why they are forced to make unhealthy decorations by the circumstances assigned to them by society.2
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HeliumIsNoble wrote: »
Presumably there is a shortage of folks with young kids, people working long hours for little money and people in accommodation with inadequate cooking facilities, too?HeliumIsNoble wrote: »
Potay-to, potah-to. You say "soft bigotry of low expectations", I say "making practical observations based on my life experiences, which has so far included homelessness hostels, low-paid shift-work and having children".Gallowmere1984 wrote: »After reading these last few posts, I think I am starting to see the real problem.
Unless you are 75, physically handicapped, or a literal midget, there is no reason in the world why walking a couple of miles while carrying 20-30 pounds in a duffel should be considered unreasonable. Holy *kitten* people are lazy as *kitten*.
In this thread on this topic, I see a lot of the soft bigotry of low expectations for what 'poor folk' should be expected capable of doing.
While there's a sizeable transient /homeless person population, is nowhere near enough to justify the broad sweeping conclusions the literature about "food deserts" suggests need foundational and dramatic societal change and dramatic government intervention in dictating the location and pricing of food, among other things. This is part of a broader ideological disagreement about freedom and government control as framed by the Alinsky disciples.
Yes- I would indeed argue that most working poor with kids aren't actually homeless and have electricity and water (whether for a microwave, hot pot, crock pot, etc). Hell- One apartment I went to look at, about 10+ people were in a covered outside area, cooking in a large pot over a contained fire.1 -
Do people not push small carts to the grocery when they have a lot to buy anywhere else but Texas? You can get them for a couple of bucks at a dollar store, and they fold up for storage or the ride to the grocery on the bus. They're narrow enough to take on a ride back, too - people here will usually help getting the cart on the bus if you have trouble, and the driver will help if others don't.
Hell, when I was living in Houston people who walked to the grocery often had actual grocery carts they pushed to and from the store. I was never sure if they were grabbing abandoned ones (I'd see them left under the overpasses and in the bayous), getting decommissioned ones from the grocery, or outright stealing them from the store, but it was a common sight.
Where do you buy these carts? The closest one I've seen is for strapping to the back of a bicycle and not convenient for pushing with hands.
FTR, I'm one of the lazy buggers who can't be asked to walk 3 miles to the store.1 -
Do people not push small carts to the grocery when they have a lot to buy anywhere else but Texas? You can get them for a couple of bucks at a dollar store, and they fold up for storage or the ride to the grocery on the bus. They're narrow enough to take on a ride back, too - people here will usually help getting the cart on the bus if you have trouble, and the driver will help if others don't.
Hell, when I was living in Houston people who walked to the grocery often had actual grocery carts they pushed to and from the store. I was never sure if they were grabbing abandoned ones (I'd see them left under the overpasses and in the bayous), getting decommissioned ones from the grocery, or outright stealing them from the store, but it was a common sight.
Where do you buy these carts? The closest one I've seen is for strapping to the back of a bicycle and not convenient for pushing with hands.
FTR, I'm one of the lazy buggers who can't be asked to walk 3 miles to the store.
Around here, literally at 'The Dollar Store'.
I've seen similar ones at other places, including at luggage outlets, but they're more than just a couple of bucks.
2 -
Do people not push small carts to the grocery when they have a lot to buy anywhere else but Texas? You can get them for a couple of bucks at a dollar store, and they fold up for storage or the ride to the grocery on the bus. They're narrow enough to take on a ride back, too - people here will usually help getting the cart on the bus if you have trouble, and the driver will help if others don't.
Hell, when I was living in Houston people who walked to the grocery often had actual grocery carts they pushed to and from the store. I was never sure if they were grabbing abandoned ones (I'd see them left under the overpasses and in the bayous), getting decommissioned ones from the grocery, or outright stealing them from the store, but it was a common sight.
Where do you buy these carts? The closest one I've seen is for strapping to the back of a bicycle and not convenient for pushing with hands.
FTR, I'm one of the lazy buggers who can't be asked to walk 3 miles to the store.
Dollar stores, small independent local shops, possibly the hardware store or a luggage shop.2 -
Not really. There's one side that says people can make their own decisions and are capable of making healthy choices even in challenging circumstances. Then the other side engages pity for the poor oppressed have-nots and explains why they are forced to make unhealthy decorations by the circumstances assigned to them by society.
I feel like the conversation has been more nuanced than that (at least in many posts). I think we can discuss how economics influence our food/activity choices without saying that anyone has been "forced" to do anything. And those influences, by the way, aren't just on the poor. We're all influenced the circumstances of our lives.7 -
Do people not push small carts to the grocery when they have a lot to buy anywhere else but Texas? You can get them for a couple of bucks at a dollar store, and they fold up for storage or the ride to the grocery on the bus. They're narrow enough to take on a ride back, too - people here will usually help getting the cart on the bus if you have trouble, and the driver will help if others don't.
Hell, when I was living in Houston people who walked to the grocery often had actual grocery carts they pushed to and from the store. I was never sure if they were grabbing abandoned ones (I'd see them left under the overpasses and in the bayous), getting decommissioned ones from the grocery, or outright stealing them from the store, but it was a common sight.
Where do you buy these carts? The closest one I've seen is for strapping to the back of a bicycle and not convenient for pushing with hands.
FTR, I'm one of the lazy buggers who can't be asked to walk 3 miles to the store.
IKEA will sell you the below new one for $20, most are probably pull rather than push carts
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Do people not push small carts to the grocery when they have a lot to buy anywhere else but Texas? You can get them for a couple of bucks at a dollar store, and they fold up for storage or the ride to the grocery on the bus. They're narrow enough to take on a ride back, too - people here will usually help getting the cart on the bus if you have trouble, and the driver will help if others don't.
Hell, when I was living in Houston people who walked to the grocery often had actual grocery carts they pushed to and from the store. I was never sure if they were grabbing abandoned ones (I'd see them left under the overpasses and in the bayous), getting decommissioned ones from the grocery, or outright stealing them from the store, but it was a common sight.
Where do you buy these carts? The closest one I've seen is for strapping to the back of a bicycle and not convenient for pushing with hands.
FTR, I'm one of the lazy buggers who can't be asked to walk 3 miles to the store.
Around here (southeastern CT), I've seen several people just walk out of stores with a cart and take it home. I think (could obviously be wrong) that's why Aldi makes you rent them for a quarter.1 -
Do people not push small carts to the grocery when they have a lot to buy anywhere else but Texas? You can get them for a couple of bucks at a dollar store, and they fold up for storage or the ride to the grocery on the bus. They're narrow enough to take on a ride back, too - people here will usually help getting the cart on the bus if you have trouble, and the driver will help if others don't.
Hell, when I was living in Houston people who walked to the grocery often had actual grocery carts they pushed to and from the store. I was never sure if they were grabbing abandoned ones (I'd see them left under the overpasses and in the bayous), getting decommissioned ones from the grocery, or outright stealing them from the store, but it was a common sight.
Where do you buy these carts? The closest one I've seen is for strapping to the back of a bicycle and not convenient for pushing with hands.
FTR, I'm one of the lazy buggers who can't be asked to walk 3 miles to the store.
I used to have one. I think I bought it at Target.1
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