Newbie Question about CICO and MFP

PastorVincent
PastorVincent Posts: 6,668 Member
edited March 2017 in Getting Started
So a long time ago (well not that long) I was much heavier, and I lost a bunch of weight (50 pounds). Then eventually gained it back, and lost it again. I have been doing pretty okay, but as time rolls on I see it slowly coming back. I REALLY do not want to find it all again, so I thought I would give MFP and CICO a try since it appealed to my logical side. I am 5 days into this plan.

Well, the problem is - CICO seems to be all over the map. For example today I will finish with over 1500 calories LEFT TO EAT. (1700 daily goal, and I ran 18 miles of hills, so net right now is in the negatives still). Tomorrow is a rest day which means I will have to eat less than 1/2 of what I ate today, and less than 1/3rd of what I was supposed to eat today (to loose 1 pound a week -need only drop like 5-10 pounds). Then Monday, I will probably burn 1000 calories in exercise, meaning I will need to eat half again as much as the day before.

So, I guess I am getting whiplash here. Am I missing something? I was hoping that CICO would be simple and straight forward. Eat good variety and keep quantity under control. Sounds like a nice logical diet... but 5 days in, and I am getting dizzy trying to keep up.

Thanks for any advice.
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Replies

  • jacobsl221
    jacobsl221 Posts: 75 Member
    Most people don't eat back all the calories. And I agree that averages are better. I only exercise three times a week (I am 67 and lazy), but it averages out. Good luck. I have been a yo-yo dieter my whole adult life and am resolved to maintain this time.
  • PastorVincent
    PastorVincent Posts: 6,668 Member
    jacobsl221 wrote: »
    Most people don't eat back all the calories.

    I am not sure what you mean here?

  • ms_smartypants
    ms_smartypants Posts: 8,278 Member
    MFP over estimates calories burn so most eat 50 % to 75% back on exercise calories
  • Christine_72
    Christine_72 Posts: 16,049 Member
    VydorScope wrote: »
    jacobsl221 wrote: »
    Most people don't eat back all the calories.

    I am not sure what you mean here?

    Say you burn 1000 extra calories through exercise, mfp will expect you to eat ALL of them back. But some people only eat back 50%, so 500 of those 1000 calories. Others will bank the calories for the weekend or a splurge night or whatever.

    There is also the chance that your exercise calories are over stated, so it's best to start with eating 50-75% back at first. If you start losing more than expected, eat back more. Losing less than expected, eat back less. Ideally it will be spot on and you can eat 100% back, but you will have to do a bit of trial end error first.
  • PastorVincent
    PastorVincent Posts: 6,668 Member
    MFP over estimates calories burn so most eat 50 % to 75% back on exercise calories

    I use Runkeeper to track calorie burn - and in my experience, it always displays fewer calories than the UA line of apps. Not sure if that means it is accurate or not. :)
  • PastorVincent
    PastorVincent Posts: 6,668 Member
    Others will bank the calories for the weekend or a splurge night or whatever.

    You can bank calories? For how long?
  • 4legsRbetterthan2
    4legsRbetterthan2 Posts: 19,590 MFP Moderator
    You may be better off doing a TDEE CICO method. It is a similar concept but instead of approaching calories daily you look at a weekly number.

    Just look at your runkeeper data from the past few weeks and figure out what your average burn was for an entire week. Divide by 7 to split it across the week. Add to your daily maintenance calories and subtract whatever deficit you want to lose. With this goal your exercise is already accounted for so you do not add it in and eat it back.

    You can manually set your calorie goal in the goals section.

    The catch to this method is you have to be good about doing your exercise as you are already eating those calories back. If you start slacking you may not lose or even gain!
  • zyxst
    zyxst Posts: 9,148 Member
    You may be better off doing a TDEE CICO method. It is a similar concept but instead of approaching calories daily you look at a weekly number.

    Just look at your runkeeper data from the past few weeks and figure out what your average burn was for an entire week. Divide by 7 to split it across the week. Add to your daily maintenance calories and subtract whatever deficit you want to lose. With this goal your exercise is already accounted for so you do not add it in and eat it back.

    You can manually set your calorie goal in the goals section.

    The catch to this method is you have to be good about doing your exercise as you are already eating those calories back. If you start slacking you may not lose or even gain!

    +1

    I was also going to suggest using TDEE - 20% (your TDEE minus 500 calories). I found MFP's NEAT + exercise confusing for me and I found having a steady number each day easier to adhere. TDEE works best when you have a good handle on exercise data and if you're doing the same amount of exercise each day.

    TDEE - total daily energy expenditure
  • JeromeBarry1
    JeromeBarry1 Posts: 10,179 Member
    VydorScope wrote: »
    Others will bank the calories for the weekend or a splurge night or whatever.

    You can bank calories? For how long?
    Some of us seem to save and spend our banked calories on a weekly time frame. Women dealing with their menses seem to save and spend theirs on a monthly basis. It's more to do with accepting the erratic fluctuations of this journey with equanimity. We don't have an app for that.
  • Harbin2017
    Harbin2017 Posts: 32 Member
    18 miles of hill?
  • PastorVincent
    PastorVincent Posts: 6,668 Member
    Harbin2017 wrote: »
    18 miles of hill?

    Yes. The area where I live is very hilly, so a lot of hills.
  • PastorVincent
    PastorVincent Posts: 6,668 Member
    zyxst wrote: »
    TDEE - total daily energy expenditure
    Thank you. I was wondering :)

  • Christine_72
    Christine_72 Posts: 16,049 Member
    VydorScope wrote: »
    Harbin2017 wrote: »
    18 miles of hill?

    Yes. The area where I live is very hilly, so a lot of hills.

    How many hours does it take you to walk 18 miles? That is a massive amount!
  • PastorVincent
    PastorVincent Posts: 6,668 Member
    How many hours does it take you to walk 18 miles? That is a massive amount!

    Well if I walked it, I guess 6 - 7 hours? But I jogged it so only took about 1/2 that time. :)

  • Theo166
    Theo166 Posts: 2,564 Member
    Yes, your actual CICO is all over the map. Just focus on your daily
    VydorScope wrote: »
    So a long time ago (well not that long) I was much heavier, and I lost a bunch of weight (50 pounds). Then eventually gained it back, and lost it again. I have been doing pretty okay, but as time rolls on I see it slowly coming back. I REALLY do not want to find it all again, so I thought I would give MFP and CICO a try since it appealed to my logical side. I am 5 days into this plan.

    Well, the problem is - CICO seems to be all over the map. For example today I will finish with over 1500 calories LEFT TO EAT. (1700 daily goal, and I ran 18 miles of hills, so net right now is in the negatives still). Tomorrow is a rest day which means I will have to eat less than 1/2 of what I ate today, and less than 1/3rd of what I was supposed to eat today (to loose 1 pound a week -need only drop like 5-10 pounds). Then Monday, I will probably burn 1000 calories in exercise, meaning I will need to eat half again as much as the day before.

    So, I guess I am getting whiplash here. Am I missing something? I was hoping that CICO would be simple and straight forward. Eat good variety and keep quantity under control. Sounds like a nice logical diet... but 5 days in, and I am getting dizzy trying to keep up.

    Thanks for any advice.

    CICO is straight forward, but you should think of it as the theory behind weight changes and not as a diet. Remember weight loss is about your trend over time, you don't need to hit an exact deficit figure every day. Your cumulative deficit at the end of the week, or month is what shows up on the scales.

    I keep my CI target fairly set, which helps with my discipline. I would only eat back exercise calories if I'm really famished.
  • AnnPT77
    AnnPT77 Posts: 34,131 Member
    Theo166 wrote: »
    Yes, your actual CICO is all over the map. Just focus on your daily
    VydorScope wrote: »
    So a long time ago (well not that long) I was much heavier, and I lost a bunch of weight (50 pounds). Then eventually gained it back, and lost it again. I have been doing pretty okay, but as time rolls on I see it slowly coming back. I REALLY do not want to find it all again, so I thought I would give MFP and CICO a try since it appealed to my logical side. I am 5 days into this plan.

    Well, the problem is - CICO seems to be all over the map. For example today I will finish with over 1500 calories LEFT TO EAT. (1700 daily goal, and I ran 18 miles of hills, so net right now is in the negatives still). Tomorrow is a rest day which means I will have to eat less than 1/2 of what I ate today, and less than 1/3rd of what I was supposed to eat today (to loose 1 pound a week -need only drop like 5-10 pounds). Then Monday, I will probably burn 1000 calories in exercise, meaning I will need to eat half again as much as the day before.

    So, I guess I am getting whiplash here. Am I missing something? I was hoping that CICO would be simple and straight forward. Eat good variety and keep quantity under control. Sounds like a nice logical diet... but 5 days in, and I am getting dizzy trying to keep up.

    Thanks for any advice.

    CICO is straight forward, but you should think of it as the theory behind weight changes and not as a diet. Remember weight loss is about your trend over time, you don't need to hit an exact deficit figure every day. Your cumulative deficit at the end of the week, or month is what shows up on the scales.

    I keep my CI target fairly set, which helps with my discipline. I would only eat back exercise calories if I'm really famished.

    It can be very reasonable not to eat back exercise calories, as long as it's not a huge number, and one doesn't already have a large deficit.

    With OP off on 18 mile jogs through the hills, I think it would be more than reasonable - necessary for health and vitality, maybe even - to eat back at least some of those exercise calories, at almost any given deficit on the consumption side.

    OP, others have given very reasonable advice about alternative ways to average your daily calories (TDEE or NEAT methods), to eat at a consistent daily level if you prefer. If you find you are hungrier on long-run days, you can always apportion your eating calories across the week in a slightly uneven way that isn't so variable as to cause whiplash, such as eating an extra couple of hundred on heavy exercise days (or the day after, if you happen to be someone who's hungrier then).

    But certainly, in your case, building into your eating goal at least half the exercise calories (or thereabouts) seems like a good starting point, and you can adjust from there as necessary.
  • RuizJoel23
    RuizJoel23 Posts: 1 Member
    I had a question. I'm totally new to this, I've downloaded the app and entered my information. I see 2,230 is my goal. Then I see a section for food and exercise. I know I am to log my meals and exercise activity, but what is the "remaining" section supposed to look like at the end of the day? Is it supposed to be negative? positive? at zero?
  • cmriverside
    cmriverside Posts: 34,404 Member
    RuizJoel23 wrote: »
    I had a question. I'm totally new to this, I've downloaded the app and entered my information. I see 2,230 is my goal. Then I see a section for food and exercise. I know I am to log my meals and exercise activity, but what is the "remaining" section supposed to look like at the end of the day? Is it supposed to be negative? positive? at zero?

    zero

    Remaining = 0
  • NorthCascades
    NorthCascades Posts: 10,968 Member
    AnnPT77 wrote: »
    With OP off on 18 mile jogs through the hills, I think it would be more than reasonable - necessary for health and vitality, maybe even - to eat back at least some of those exercise calories, at almost any given deficit on the consumption side.

    I agree. This isn't "I watched a HIIT video for 15 minutes."
  • Theo166
    Theo166 Posts: 2,564 Member
    AnnPT77 wrote: »
    With OP off on 18 mile jogs through the hills, I think it would be more than reasonable - necessary for health and vitality, maybe even - to eat back at least some of those exercise calories, at almost any given deficit on the consumption side.

    I agree. This isn't "I watched a HIIT video for 15 minutes."

    Do you think he actually runs 18 miles in the hills at 6mph,
    yet needs MFP help to manage weight?
  • WinoGelato
    WinoGelato Posts: 13,454 Member
    OP, just to clarify, CICO isn't a diet. It's a mathematical equation that describes the fundamental energy balance... whether you are losing, maintaining, or gaining weight - CICO is the overarching principle.

    So I'm not sure exactly what method you were trying to follow or what your overall goals are, but MFP is built off of a NEAT estimate of your calorie burn excluding exercise, such that if you do exercise, you should eat back at least a portion of those calories. As others have said, many here instead decide to use TDEE which is an estimate of your total calorie burn including exercise, best for those with consistent exercise routines, and if so, you would not eat back the exercise cals since they would be built into your initial target.
  • AnnPT77
    AnnPT77 Posts: 34,131 Member
    Theo166 wrote: »
    AnnPT77 wrote: »
    With OP off on 18 mile jogs through the hills, I think it would be more than reasonable - necessary for health and vitality, maybe even - to eat back at least some of those exercise calories, at almost any given deficit on the consumption side.

    I agree. This isn't "I watched a HIIT video for 15 minutes."

    Do you think he actually runs 18 miles in the hills at 6mph,
    yet needs MFP help to manage weight?

    (shrug) He seems to think he does; I believed him.
  • PastorVincent
    PastorVincent Posts: 6,668 Member
    edited March 2017
    Theo166 wrote: »
    AnnPT77 wrote: »
    With OP off on 18 mile jogs through the hills, I think it would be more than reasonable - necessary for health and vitality, maybe even - to eat back at least some of those exercise calories, at almost any given deficit on the consumption side.

    I agree. This isn't "I watched a HIIT video for 15 minutes."


    Do you think he actually runs 18 miles in the hills at 6mph,
    yet needs MFP help to manage weight?

    Fair question, look for yourself: http://rnkpr.com/afrqin3

    Also, see attached screen shot.
    vfgn4wuj146q.png

    I have gained and lost 50 pounds twice. Just cause I run does not mean I am good about eating. If I was good about eating, I would not need to run 18 miles.

    I am training for a marathon. I was supposed to hit 20 miles that day. Will try again this weekend for 20. Not sure where you got 6mph from, but my goal is 7mph. I have a ways to go yet. I can do 7mph on short distances, but not the full 26.2!
  • deannalfisher
    deannalfisher Posts: 5,600 Member
    Theo166 wrote: »
    AnnPT77 wrote: »
    With OP off on 18 mile jogs through the hills, I think it would be more than reasonable - necessary for health and vitality, maybe even - to eat back at least some of those exercise calories, at almost any given deficit on the consumption side.

    I agree. This isn't "I watched a HIIT video for 15 minutes."

    Do you think he actually runs 18 miles in the hills at 6mph,
    yet needs MFP help to manage weight?

    I use MFP to manage weight as an endurance triathlete - working with an RD to customize my eating plan - I take their calorie recommendations and plug them into MFP...but if you don't do something like that (and I pay premium to disconnect exercise calories), it can get confusing
  • deannalfisher
    deannalfisher Posts: 5,600 Member
    I'd recommend not doing 2 lo
    VydorScope wrote: »
    Theo166 wrote: »
    AnnPT77 wrote: »
    With OP off on 18 mile jogs through the hills, I think it would be more than reasonable - necessary for health and vitality, maybe even - to eat back at least some of those exercise calories, at almost any given deficit on the consumption side.

    I agree. This isn't "I watched a HIIT video for 15 minutes."


    Do you think he actually runs 18 miles in the hills at 6mph,
    yet needs MFP help to manage weight?

    Fair question, look for yourself: http://rnkpr.com/afrqin3

    Also, see attached screen shot.
    vfgn4wuj146q.png

    I have gained and lost 50 pounds twice. Just cause I run does not mean I am good about eating. If I was good about eating, I would not need to run 18 miles.

    I am training for a marathon. I was supposed to hit 20 miles that day. Will try again this weekend for 20. Not sure where you got 6mph from, but my goal is 7mph. I have a ways to go yet. I can do 7mph on short distances, but not the full 26.2!

    I'd recommend not doing 2 long runs like that over 2 weeks - you risk potential injury - I'd give it at least a week break (of note, my longest runs for ironmen are 17-20 miles about 4 weeks out and then I taper)

    when is your race?
  • PastorVincent
    PastorVincent Posts: 6,668 Member

    I'd recommend not doing 2 long runs like that over 2 weeks - you risk potential injury - I'd give it at least a week break (of note, my longest runs for ironmen are 17-20 miles about 4 weeks out and then I taper)

    when is your race?

    Err.. this would be 3 long runs over 3 weeks... 17 miles was the week before... assuming I can get out this weekend.

    Running the Pittsburgh Marathon this May. I feel like I am about a month behind where I wanted to be, but been a rough winter with work/etc interfering with training.

  • deannalfisher
    deannalfisher Posts: 5,600 Member
    20 miles and 5 weeks out from the race - you are starting to get to the stage where injury could play a role

    you have a solid base right now; I'd dial it back a week and then do one last long run before taper - 2-3 weeks out
  • PastorVincent
    PastorVincent Posts: 6,668 Member
    edited March 2017
    On the plus side, I am quickly approaching race weight, but far faster than I wanted to. I think I probably need to eat more. Which is scary given my weakness for tasty food.

  • PastorVincent
    PastorVincent Posts: 6,668 Member
    20 miles and 5 weeks out from the race - you are starting to get to the stage where injury could play a role

    you have a solid base right now; I'd dial it back a week and then do one last long run before taper - 2-3 weeks out

    I hear you... but if I can not push through to 20 miles now, how in the world will I be able to do 26 in May? I need to get to a 9ish min pace to beat my goal of 4 hours. I have a lot more running to do I think.