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The pH for dummies infographic is belittling and unhelpful - Rational Discussion about Alkaline Diet
Replies
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I'm not a scientist, so I have to do a lot of reading and rereading, and I'm pretty open to multiple interpretations on things that I don't understand. That said, a lot of the studies presented seem to be conflating an "alkaline" diet with a balanced diet. An increase in fruits and vegetables in a diet otherwise lacking them showed positive correlations with decreased disease and morbidity. "No *kitten*, Sherlock!" was my reaction to that.
I'm very skeptical of diet-induced metabolic acidosis. Mainly because I can't find any major organization discussing it (my go-to for confirmations like that are the Mayo Clinic, CDC, WHO, etc.). Perhaps it's less about the acidity or alkalinity of the diet and more about people meeting their body's micronutrient needs? (Again, I'm not a scientist, so I'm just spitballing here.)12 -
I'm not a scientist, so I have to do a lot of reading and rereading, and I'm pretty open to multiple interpretations on things that I don't understand. That said, a lot of the studies presented seem to be conflating an "alkaline" diet with a balanced diet. An increase in fruits and vegetables in a diet otherwise lacking them showed positive correlations with decreased disease and morbidity. "No *kitten*, Sherlock!" was my reaction to that.
I'm very skeptical of diet-induced metabolic acidosis. Mainly because I can't find any major organization discussing it (my go-to for confirmations like that are the Mayo Clinic, CDC, WHO, etc.). Perhaps it's less about the acidity or alkalinity of the diet and more about people meeting their body's micronutrient needs? (Again, I'm not a scientist, so I'm just spitballing here.)
This is a good point and I think it goes beyond the alkaline diet to many of the plans we see people insisting made them feel better (keto, veganism, low carb, "clean eating," etc). If you're eating a diet that is relatively low in nutrients and you switch to a more focused plan that gets you more, you'll probably feel better. It's nothing inherent to the specific diet, it's the better nutrition overall that the body is responding to.
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I'm not a scientist, so I have to do a lot of reading and rereading, and I'm pretty open to multiple interpretations on things that I don't understand. That said, a lot of the studies presented seem to be conflating an "alkaline" diet with a balanced diet. An increase in fruits and vegetables in a diet otherwise lacking them showed positive correlations with decreased disease and morbidity. "No *kitten*, Sherlock!" was my reaction to that.
I'm very skeptical of diet-induced metabolic acidosis. Mainly because I can't find any major organization discussing it (my go-to for confirmations like that are the Mayo Clinic, CDC, WHO, etc.). Perhaps it's less about the acidity or alkalinity of the diet and more about people meeting their body's micronutrient needs? (Again, I'm not a scientist, so I'm just spitballing here.)
Hmmm... NIH is not good enough? CDC, NIH, FDA are all under US HHS AFAIK.
But I found pages from both CDC and Mayo clinic on thiamine deficiency causing it. And others on soy based formula causing it. Those examples are about acute acidosis though and I won't make the mistake of linking any more papers here.
Agree that it does seem to be about micronutrients (particularly electrolytes).
So long and thanks for all the fish.1 -
ronjsteele1 wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »lobotomybunny wrote: »How did you read that so fast? I am listening to all comments and am asking for more than just a "no." Sorry.
I think the scientist here explained things fairly well and didn't just say "no."
Because scientists are no different then any other profession. Ask ten of them the same question and you'll get ten different answers. Why would anyone put their stock in one person's statements? Consider it amongst numerous positions, sure. But believe one person on this site because they're a scientist? Forget it.
I don't think you'll get a whole lot of scientists having much debate about this particular issue...
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lobotomybunny wrote: »I'm not a scientist, so I have to do a lot of reading and rereading, and I'm pretty open to multiple interpretations on things that I don't understand. That said, a lot of the studies presented seem to be conflating an "alkaline" diet with a balanced diet. An increase in fruits and vegetables in a diet otherwise lacking them showed positive correlations with decreased disease and morbidity. "No *kitten*, Sherlock!" was my reaction to that.
I'm very skeptical of diet-induced metabolic acidosis. Mainly because I can't find any major organization discussing it (my go-to for confirmations like that are the Mayo Clinic, CDC, WHO, etc.). Perhaps it's less about the acidity or alkalinity of the diet and more about people meeting their body's micronutrient needs? (Again, I'm not a scientist, so I'm just spitballing here.)
Hmmm... NIH is not good enough? CDC, NIH, FDA are all under US HHS AFAIK.
But I found pages from both CDC and Mayo clinic on thiamine deficiency causing it. And others on soy based formula causing it. Those examples are about acute acidosis though and I won't make the mistake of linking any more papers here.
Agree that it does seem to be about micronutrients (particularly electrolytes).
So long and thanks for all the fish.
But again, you are talking here about a balanced diet versus malnourishment, not one that specifically claims to change the pH. The majority of these types of diets (which is part of what makes it a fad diet, IMO) are claimed to be beneficial for everyone, not a subset of people with specific medical needs. No one, I'm aware of recommends obtaining blood work to evaluate their pH prior to undertaking the alkalizing diet. So by what is success measured? In hospital, when patient's are diagnosed with acidosis, they aren't prescribed a dietary change, they are given whatever is needed to change it, depending on the underlying cause. A balanced diet is not going to have a significant impact. A poor diet with excess or lack of specific nutrients, of course, has a considerable impact on health and well-being. That's not specific to an alkalizing diet.6 -
nutmegoreo wrote: »lobotomybunny wrote: »I'm not a scientist, so I have to do a lot of reading and rereading, and I'm pretty open to multiple interpretations on things that I don't understand. That said, a lot of the studies presented seem to be conflating an "alkaline" diet with a balanced diet. An increase in fruits and vegetables in a diet otherwise lacking them showed positive correlations with decreased disease and morbidity. "No *kitten*, Sherlock!" was my reaction to that.
I'm very skeptical of diet-induced metabolic acidosis. Mainly because I can't find any major organization discussing it (my go-to for confirmations like that are the Mayo Clinic, CDC, WHO, etc.). Perhaps it's less about the acidity or alkalinity of the diet and more about people meeting their body's micronutrient needs? (Again, I'm not a scientist, so I'm just spitballing here.)
Hmmm... NIH is not good enough? CDC, NIH, FDA are all under US HHS AFAIK.
But I found pages from both CDC and Mayo clinic on thiamine deficiency causing it. And others on soy based formula causing it. Those examples are about acute acidosis though and I won't make the mistake of linking any more papers here.
Agree that it does seem to be about micronutrients (particularly electrolytes).
So long and thanks for all the fish.
But again, you are talking here about a balanced diet versus malnourishment, not one that specifically claims to change the pH. The majority of these types of diets (which is part of what makes it a fad diet, IMO) are claimed to be beneficial for everyone, not a subset of people with specific medical needs. No one, I'm aware of recommends obtaining blood work to evaluate their pH prior to undertaking the alkalizing diet. So by what is success measured? In hospital, when patient's are diagnosed with acidosis, they aren't prescribed a dietary change, they are given whatever is needed to change it, depending on the underlying cause. A balanced diet is not going to have a significant impact. A poor diet with excess or lack of specific nutrients, of course, has a considerable impact on health and well-being. That's not specific to an alkalizing diet.
I'd also think that if this was a huge mainstream issue that ph testing would be a regular thing at your annual physical and wellness checkup. I get a whole host of blood work done annually...to my knowledge my Dr. has never checked my Ph.4 -
Here's something to start with:lobotomybunny wrote: »The links described the theory that a Western diet increases a body's acid load (and I summarized the reasons for it, e.g., potassium etc or lack thereof), and were provided so that the diet, as discussed in the scientific literature that I could find, would be well-defined in this discussion, as opposed to whatever version of a diet is assumed by its name.
The links I looked at did not describe a specific set of foods that would supposedly be the alkaline diet. I admit I did not read all of them.
More significantly, I don't eat the SAD (western pattern diet) and most here who are interested in nutrition probably also do not. I am experimenting right now with something else, so not exactly eating my regular diet, but I generally plan meals around vegetables and from logging at Chronometer am reasonably sure that my diet does not share two common issues with the SAD, low potassium vs. sodium, and low omega-3 vs. omega-6. So if the issue is something like "too little potassium" or "too much sodium," I don't think the "alkaline diet" is really the most sensible approach. Is the problem with the SAD that it is too acidic? Given the main issues with the SAD, I doubt it but that might be a specific thing to discuss.So.. Because it seems to be THE major concern for people who call woo, I am looking for convincing that food-driven acidosis cannot exist
I did not see anything in the articles you posted suggesting that it could (and I mean acidosis as in http://www.healthline.com/health/acidosis?m=2). Can you point to a specific portion that you think disagrees?
Note, I don't think effect from drinking to extreme excess=effect caused by food choice.1 -
nutmegoreo wrote: »lobotomybunny wrote: »I'm not a scientist, so I have to do a lot of reading and rereading, and I'm pretty open to multiple interpretations on things that I don't understand. That said, a lot of the studies presented seem to be conflating an "alkaline" diet with a balanced diet. An increase in fruits and vegetables in a diet otherwise lacking them showed positive correlations with decreased disease and morbidity. "No *kitten*, Sherlock!" was my reaction to that.
I'm very skeptical of diet-induced metabolic acidosis. Mainly because I can't find any major organization discussing it (my go-to for confirmations like that are the Mayo Clinic, CDC, WHO, etc.). Perhaps it's less about the acidity or alkalinity of the diet and more about people meeting their body's micronutrient needs? (Again, I'm not a scientist, so I'm just spitballing here.)
Hmmm... NIH is not good enough? CDC, NIH, FDA are all under US HHS AFAIK.
But I found pages from both CDC and Mayo clinic on thiamine deficiency causing it. And others on soy based formula causing it. Those examples are about acute acidosis though and I won't make the mistake of linking any more papers here.
Agree that it does seem to be about micronutrients (particularly electrolytes).
So long and thanks for all the fish.
But again, you are talking here about a balanced diet versus malnourishment, not one that specifically claims to change the pH.
Yes, this is really the key point.
Can severe malnourishment cause something (like an electolyte imbalance, inability to use nutrients from food properly, probably other things)? Yes, absolutely.
That is different from the alkaline diet claims, which are that your diet is too acidic and is causing hard for that reason. I think not getting enough potassium over time is bad for you and does damage. I don't think that's evidence for the "alkaline diet."2 -
cwolfman13 wrote: »nutmegoreo wrote: »lobotomybunny wrote: »I'm not a scientist, so I have to do a lot of reading and rereading, and I'm pretty open to multiple interpretations on things that I don't understand. That said, a lot of the studies presented seem to be conflating an "alkaline" diet with a balanced diet. An increase in fruits and vegetables in a diet otherwise lacking them showed positive correlations with decreased disease and morbidity. "No *kitten*, Sherlock!" was my reaction to that.
I'm very skeptical of diet-induced metabolic acidosis. Mainly because I can't find any major organization discussing it (my go-to for confirmations like that are the Mayo Clinic, CDC, WHO, etc.). Perhaps it's less about the acidity or alkalinity of the diet and more about people meeting their body's micronutrient needs? (Again, I'm not a scientist, so I'm just spitballing here.)
Hmmm... NIH is not good enough? CDC, NIH, FDA are all under US HHS AFAIK.
But I found pages from both CDC and Mayo clinic on thiamine deficiency causing it. And others on soy based formula causing it. Those examples are about acute acidosis though and I won't make the mistake of linking any more papers here.
Agree that it does seem to be about micronutrients (particularly electrolytes).
So long and thanks for all the fish.
But again, you are talking here about a balanced diet versus malnourishment, not one that specifically claims to change the pH. The majority of these types of diets (which is part of what makes it a fad diet, IMO) are claimed to be beneficial for everyone, not a subset of people with specific medical needs. No one, I'm aware of recommends obtaining blood work to evaluate their pH prior to undertaking the alkalizing diet. So by what is success measured? In hospital, when patient's are diagnosed with acidosis, they aren't prescribed a dietary change, they are given whatever is needed to change it, depending on the underlying cause. A balanced diet is not going to have a significant impact. A poor diet with excess or lack of specific nutrients, of course, has a considerable impact on health and well-being. That's not specific to an alkalizing diet.
I'd also think that if this was a huge mainstream issue that ph testing would be a regular thing at your annual physical and wellness checkup. I get a whole host of blood work done annually...to my knowledge my Dr. has never checked my Ph.
That's because it happens with specific disease states, lung and kidney, diabetes, and alcoholism, along with a few lesser common causes such as severe dehydration, etc. Diet is certainly an important consideration with kidney failure and diabetes, and malnourishment is common with prolonged alcoholism, but again, these are specific subsets of the population.2 -
cwolfman13 wrote: »ronjsteele1 wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »lobotomybunny wrote: »How did you read that so fast? I am listening to all comments and am asking for more than just a "no." Sorry.
I think the scientist here explained things fairly well and didn't just say "no."
Because scientists are no different then any other profession. Ask ten of them the same question and you'll get ten different answers. Why would anyone put their stock in one person's statements? Consider it amongst numerous positions, sure. But believe one person on this site because they're a scientist? Forget it.
I don't think you'll get a whole lot of scientists having much debate about this particular issue...
Yeah, pretty sure 10 out of 10 scientists would agree that no matter what you eat, it will fall into a big balloon filled with extremely potent acid and get mixed together, and brought down to the acid's pH.
Well, maybe not Dr. Oz.4 -
I've spent the last two months working with regulators in drafting a warning to the public on the adverse effects of Apple Cider Vinegar (ACV) overuse. This was in response to a reported increase of serious adverse effects and death reports. I spent the morning reviewing the autopsy of a 34 year old woman who drank a 1/2 cup of ACV daily and it looks as if her entire gastrointestinal system has been bleached.
These people all believed, in some manner or fashion, that their diet was too acidic.
There is no rational discussion regarding an alkaline diet. This is completely irrational.15 -
I've spent the last two months working with regulators in drafting a warning to the public on the adverse effects of Apple Cider Vinegar (ACV) overuse. This was in response to a reported increase of serious adverse effects and death reports. I spent the morning reviewing the autopsy of a 34 year old woman who drank a 1/2 cup of ACV daily and it looks as if her entire gastrointestinal system has been bleached.
These people all believed, in some manner or fashion, that their diet was too acidic.
There is no rational discussion regarding an alkaline diet. This is completely irrational.
woah. that's some serious *kitten*. once you've drafted your warning we should consider making it a sticky.2 -
lobotomybunny wrote: »Here is a little primer about pH regulation and food. http://advan.physiology.org/content/33/4/275.full
...
Oh Ok then. Now I can totally explain why that paper is incorrect. Guess I'll just contact the author now. Thanks for bringing so much to the table.
I can't figure out if the paper I've linked to here is the one you're talking about, but it isn't AT ALL a "primer about pH regulation and food"; it's about how the kidneys work to regulate pH no matter the food source.
Also, anyone can look at the impact factor of the journal it's published in here. In this case, we see that it's among the least respected journals in the field.5 -
I've spent the last two months working with regulators in drafting a warning to the public on the adverse effects of Apple Cider Vinegar (ACV) overuse. This was in response to a reported increase of serious adverse effects and death reports. I spent the morning reviewing the autopsy of a 34 year old woman who drank a 1/2 cup of ACV daily and it looks as if her entire gastrointestinal system has been bleached.
These people all believed, in some manner or fashion, that their diet was too acidic.
There is no rational discussion regarding an alkaline diet. This is completely irrational.
Wow, I knew it wouldn't work as a weight loss magic bullet but I had no idea it was so risky.2 -
jessiferrrb wrote: »I've spent the last two months working with regulators in drafting a warning to the public on the adverse effects of Apple Cider Vinegar (ACV) overuse. This was in response to a reported increase of serious adverse effects and death reports. I spent the morning reviewing the autopsy of a 34 year old woman who drank a 1/2 cup of ACV daily and it looks as if her entire gastrointestinal system has been bleached.
These people all believed, in some manner or fashion, that their diet was too acidic.
There is no rational discussion regarding an alkaline diet. This is completely irrational.
woah. that's some serious *kitten*. once you've drafted your warning we should consider making it a sticky.
I don't think this will ever get issued to the public. The only reason I got involved was due to my firm manufacturing acetic acid for medical use. I have to forward any and all adverse events to regulatory authorities - the food/supplement industry is under different regulations and does not, so in all likelihood this will be ignored.2 -
I'm not a scientist, so I have to do a lot of reading and rereading, and I'm pretty open to multiple interpretations on things that I don't understand. That said, a lot of the studies presented seem to be conflating an "alkaline" diet with a balanced diet. An increase in fruits and vegetables in a diet otherwise lacking them showed positive correlations with decreased disease and morbidity. "No *kitten*, Sherlock!" was my reaction to that.
I'm very skeptical of diet-induced metabolic acidosis. Mainly because I can't find any major organization discussing it (my go-to for confirmations like that are the Mayo Clinic, CDC, WHO, etc.). Perhaps it's less about the acidity or alkalinity of the diet and more about people meeting their body's micronutrient needs? (Again, I'm not a scientist, so I'm just spitballing here.)
This is a classic pattern of pseudoscience and health/nutrition scams. Take an intervention that shows efficacy when it resolves a deficit and generalize those "benefits" to the healthy population. I wasted 20 min of my life reading a number of those links myself and came to a similar conclusion. Just because an article/study is indexed in PubMed doesn't mean it's a quality effort.
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cwolfman13 wrote: »nutmegoreo wrote: »lobotomybunny wrote: »I'm not a scientist, so I have to do a lot of reading and rereading, and I'm pretty open to multiple interpretations on things that I don't understand. That said, a lot of the studies presented seem to be conflating an "alkaline" diet with a balanced diet. An increase in fruits and vegetables in a diet otherwise lacking them showed positive correlations with decreased disease and morbidity. "No *kitten*, Sherlock!" was my reaction to that.
I'm very skeptical of diet-induced metabolic acidosis. Mainly because I can't find any major organization discussing it (my go-to for confirmations like that are the Mayo Clinic, CDC, WHO, etc.). Perhaps it's less about the acidity or alkalinity of the diet and more about people meeting their body's micronutrient needs? (Again, I'm not a scientist, so I'm just spitballing here.)
Hmmm... NIH is not good enough? CDC, NIH, FDA are all under US HHS AFAIK.
But I found pages from both CDC and Mayo clinic on thiamine deficiency causing it. And others on soy based formula causing it. Those examples are about acute acidosis though and I won't make the mistake of linking any more papers here.
Agree that it does seem to be about micronutrients (particularly electrolytes).
So long and thanks for all the fish.
But again, you are talking here about a balanced diet versus malnourishment, not one that specifically claims to change the pH. The majority of these types of diets (which is part of what makes it a fad diet, IMO) are claimed to be beneficial for everyone, not a subset of people with specific medical needs. No one, I'm aware of recommends obtaining blood work to evaluate their pH prior to undertaking the alkalizing diet. So by what is success measured? In hospital, when patient's are diagnosed with acidosis, they aren't prescribed a dietary change, they are given whatever is needed to change it, depending on the underlying cause. A balanced diet is not going to have a significant impact. A poor diet with excess or lack of specific nutrients, of course, has a considerable impact on health and well-being. That's not specific to an alkalizing diet.
I'd also think that if this was a huge mainstream issue that ph testing would be a regular thing at your annual physical and wellness checkup. I get a whole host of blood work done annually...to my knowledge my Dr. has never checked my Ph.cwolfman13 wrote: »nutmegoreo wrote: »lobotomybunny wrote: »I'm not a scientist, so I have to do a lot of reading and rereading, and I'm pretty open to multiple interpretations on things that I don't understand. That said, a lot of the studies presented seem to be conflating an "alkaline" diet with a balanced diet. An increase in fruits and vegetables in a diet otherwise lacking them showed positive correlations with decreased disease and morbidity. "No *kitten*, Sherlock!" was my reaction to that.
I'm very skeptical of diet-induced metabolic acidosis. Mainly because I can't find any major organization discussing it (my go-to for confirmations like that are the Mayo Clinic, CDC, WHO, etc.). Perhaps it's less about the acidity or alkalinity of the diet and more about people meeting their body's micronutrient needs? (Again, I'm not a scientist, so I'm just spitballing here.)
Hmmm... NIH is not good enough? CDC, NIH, FDA are all under US HHS AFAIK.
But I found pages from both CDC and Mayo clinic on thiamine deficiency causing it. And others on soy based formula causing it. Those examples are about acute acidosis though and I won't make the mistake of linking any more papers here.
Agree that it does seem to be about micronutrients (particularly electrolytes).
So long and thanks for all the fish.
But again, you are talking here about a balanced diet versus malnourishment, not one that specifically claims to change the pH. The majority of these types of diets (which is part of what makes it a fad diet, IMO) are claimed to be beneficial for everyone, not a subset of people with specific medical needs. No one, I'm aware of recommends obtaining blood work to evaluate their pH prior to undertaking the alkalizing diet. So by what is success measured? In hospital, when patient's are diagnosed with acidosis, they aren't prescribed a dietary change, they are given whatever is needed to change it, depending on the underlying cause. A balanced diet is not going to have a significant impact. A poor diet with excess or lack of specific nutrients, of course, has a considerable impact on health and well-being. That's not specific to an alkalizing diet.
I'd also think that if this was a huge mainstream issue that ph testing would be a regular thing at your annual physical and wellness checkup. I get a whole host of blood work done annually...to my knowledge my Dr. has never checked my Ph.
pH is not checked on the routine bloods your GP would do. There is no need.
If you were in significant acidosis or alkinosis (either respiratory or metabolic) you would likely be in hospital where they would run blood gas tests which would look at your pH in relation to other measures such as the anion gap and oxygen:carbon dioxide partial pressures, bicarbonate levels etc.
Basically all patients who are critically ill will have blood gases (which include pH measurement) taken regularly.
It is not really relevant to the general bloods a GP runs though.
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PH diets ARE for dummies.1
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