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The pH for dummies infographic is belittling and unhelpful - Rational Discussion about Alkaline Diet
Replies
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As for why can't we just let people call a diet alkaline because it promotes the eating of vegetables. Well, why can't we just say, no need to follow a set list of do and don't foods or label it, just get a wide and varied diet with a colour spectrum of veg, fruit if you like it and lots of other good whole foods.
Making claims about what a certain named diet can do to the body is a slippery slope that leads to places such as claiming what you eat can cure cancer.3 -
I posted the multiple links to get a conversation started, figuring that different people would respond to different subjects. Sorry if that was too broad and confusing. The links described the theory that a Western diet increases a body's acid load (and I summarized the reasons for it, e.g., potassium etc or lack thereof), and were provided so that the diet, as discussed in the scientific literature that I could find, would be well-defined in this discussion, as opposed to whatever version of a diet is assumed by its name. To show that some research scientists, not just pinterest bloggers, thought that the discussion was worth merit. Got unhelpful patronizing response, everyone loved it! So helpful. If I did not post a link to any articles that support any of the claims, I'd probably be wrong for doing that as well, because it would all be woo and magic and fad-driven.
I think I asked some pretty specific questions. In direct response to somebody in this thread saying that food does not affect body pH, I posted a quote from a free full scholarly article (seriously doubt it is activist driven) and asked why it was wrong. I also posted a link to a free and full article with data that seemed to show that foods change the balance of buffers. Maybe it's not a big deal in the long run, but this seems to be the main concern from people who argue against the diet (also reflected in the infographic), so that seems to warrant a direct answer to that particular concern. I'm looking for the data on the other side of the coin. Sorry if it is too time consuming. Telling me that I am wrong or getting off track for even asking the questions in response to the comments is not constructive. I think that each of my requests can be answered by the person who claimed the contrary.
As I said a few times, I am not making any specific claims that the alkaline diet is the magic pill for health or weight loss or anything. I don't do that diet. But maybe a wee part of its merit is its buffering capability. If that is what a person has chosen, I would want to move forward and provide information about the potential merits of that lower grain, higher vegetable content diet without shaming them for calling it the wrong name. We are not supposed to shame people for what they eat, right? If you tell me you are on the alkaline diet, I won't simply tell you that it's woo and discourage you from doing it.
Whether or not the general commentary smack-downs are aimed at me, I have read enough of them on this site to see a rather sad pattern, and to really appreciate those who are capable of having a productive discussion.
So.. Because it seems to be THE major concern for people who call woo, I am looking for convincing that food-driven acidosis cannot exist and that food-driven buffering of the acidosis cannot exist (or alkalosis, whatever you want). That's all. And because I know I have to say it again, I am NOT asking about moving pH into death range. Can we please focus on this?0 -
lobotomybunny wrote: »I posted the multiple links to get a conversation started, figuring that different people would respond to different subjects. Sorry if that was too broad and confusing. The links described the theory that a Western diet increases a body's acid load (and I summarized the reasons for it, e.g., potassium etc or lack thereof), and were provided so that the diet, as discussed in the scientific literature that I could find, would be well-defined in this discussion, as opposed to whatever version of a diet is assumed by its name. To show that some research scientists, not just pinterest bloggers, thought that the discussion was worth merit. Got unhelpful patronizing response, everyone loved it! So helpful. If I did not post a link to any articles that support any of the claims, I'd probably be wrong for doing that as well, because it would all be woo and magic and fad-driven.
I think I asked some pretty specific questions. In direct response to somebody in this thread saying that food does not affect body pH, I posted a quote from a free full scholarly article (seriously doubt it is activist driven) and asked why it was wrong. I also posted a link to a free and full article with data that seemed to show that foods change the balance of buffers. Maybe it's not a big deal in the long run, but this seems to be the main concern from people who argue against the diet (also reflected in the infographic), so that seems to warrant a direct answer to that particular concern. I'm looking for the data on the other side of the coin. Sorry if it is too time consuming. Telling me that I am wrong or getting off track for even asking the questions in response to the comments is not constructive. I think that each of my requests can be answered by the person who claimed the contrary.
As I said a few times, I am not making any specific claims that the alkaline diet is the magic pill for health or weight loss or anything. I don't do that diet. But maybe a wee part of its merit is its buffering capability. If that is what a person has chosen, I would want to move forward and provide information about the potential merits of that lower grain, higher vegetable content diet without shaming them for calling it the wrong name. We are not supposed to shame people for what they eat, right? If you tell me you are on the alkaline diet, I won't simply tell you that it's woo and discourage you from doing it.
Whether or not the general commentary smack-downs are aimed at me, I have read enough of them on this site to see a rather sad pattern, and to really appreciate those who are capable of having a productive discussion.
So.. Because it seems to be THE major concern for people who call woo, I am looking for convincing that food-driven acidosis cannot exist and that food-driven buffering of the acidosis cannot exist (or alkalosis, whatever you want). That's all. And because I know I have to say it again, I am NOT asking about moving pH into death range. Can we please focus on this?
Why don't you just listen to the actual scientist who has been posting here?7 -
How did you read that so fast? I am listening to all comments and am asking for more than just a "no." Sorry.1
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lobotomybunny wrote: »How did you read that so fast? I am listening to all comments and am asking for more than just a "no." Sorry.
I think the scientist here explained things fairly well and didn't just say "no."4 -
Oh Ok then. Now I can totally explain why that paper is incorrect. Guess I'll just contact the author now. Thanks for bringing so much to the table.0
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And I have to wonder, if there were merit around this, how would one know they NEED to be so specific about their diet even though clinically they aren't at risk or displaying life threatening symptoms? Is it really useful to someone following this "diet" to affirm their believes they need to somehow alter their pH?3
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cwolfman13 wrote: »lobotomybunny wrote: »How did you read that so fast? I am listening to all comments and am asking for more than just a "no." Sorry.
I think the scientist here explained things fairly well and didn't just say "no."
Because scientists are no different then any other profession. Ask ten of them the same question and you'll get ten different answers. Why would anyone put their stock in one person's statements? Consider it amongst numerous positions, sure. But believe one person on this site because they're a scientist? Forget it.3 -
lobotomybunny wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »lobotomybunny wrote: »Ok... do you have any ideas about foods acting as buffers? Or are you telling me to study acid-base chemistry?
I'd like to hear why people are so reactive when alkalizing foods are mentioned.
Do you mean why people are dismissive of the idea that we should be concerned about the acidity of foods when consuming them? This link explains it pretty well: http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Alkaline_dietThe alkaline diet is a diet fad that started gaining popularity in around 2010, based on the notion that it's possible to alter your blood pH through a change in diet to make it more alkaline, receiving numerous health benefits. There is no evidence whatsoever for this, and everyone selling this notion is a liar. Furthermore, there is no connection between what foods the proponents of this diet recommend and the actual pH of those foods....
The nugget of fact this idea is based on is that food can alter urine pH, which can reduce the impact of kidney stones; this is unrelated to your blood or the rest of your body....
Several lists identifying "alkaline" and "acidic" foods list lemons,[2] limes and oranges as "alkaline", even though they are obviously very acidic. Lemon juice has a pH of 2, is corrosive to some metals and can damage tooth enamel if consumed excessively. Simultaneously, sodium salts of weak acids used as preservatives, such as sodium benzoate, will be always identified as acidic, even though they are in fact weakly alkaline. This disconnect betrays the fact that the "alkaline diet" is the same old nature woo dressed up in scientific-sounding terms that people are likely to remember from school, and has nothing to do with the chemical concept of acidity and alkalinity.
Some proponents of the diet attempt to circumvent the above problem by redefining the concept of acidity. Instead of testing the intact food, they burn it in air and test the pH of the resulting ash. The results of this procedure are trivial to predict: foods high in sodium, potassium, calcium, magnesium and other group I and II metals will come out alkaline, and foods high in phosphorus and sulphur will come out acidic. This crude process has absolutely nothing to do with human metabolism, and the results are completely uncorrelated with healthfulness of the tested food. For instance, unhealthy foods containing lots of sodium, fat and carbohydrates would be alkaline according to this test, while high-protein, low-sodium foods such as eggs and soy would be acidic due to high sulphur content.
Setting aside the specific diets/claims and issues with those, my question to you would be what is the benefit of focusing on the alleged acidity of foods vs. things like nutrient content? One link I found discussing the idea determined that there was nothing to it in the sense claimed, but that a supposedly alkaline diet still could be helpful as it would increase vegetables and fruits, which is good, etc. But certainly the main benefit of eating adequate vegetables and fruits is not how alkaline they are or their effect is or whatever. It would be a difficult and not very helpful way to approach eating IMO, and (again) mostly based on false claims.
I don't know that there is a definite benefit of focusing on the acidity of foods. I really just wanted to have a discussion about it without the stupid condescending meme and the legions of people who come out of the woodwork and think that it is awesome. It is crude and unhelpful and seems like a swat with a rolled up newspaper. Happens way too often. Yes, there is definitely a benefit with a vegetable and fruit-heavy diet that I think everybody agrees is healthy. I think I stated earlier that regardless of the name of the diet or the actual acidity, the foods that are a part of it are associated with better health. So... so what if it is called an alkaline diet? Instead of saying 'duh you'd be dead if you could change your blood pH, derp,' why not reply that there is not enough evidence to fully support that it is the alkalinity generated by foods that provides the benefit, but it's a really healthy diet in many other ways...? I started this thread to discuss the merits of the diet and where the ideas behind it came from. To discuss and learn. Because I see most divisive issues like this in shades of grey. I am not pro-alkaline diet! I am pro-kind, rational discussion. And I agree that it is not helpful to base a good way of eating on false information. But I have yet to learn how the data that I referred to is false. How the papers are wrong.
Rational wiki gives me the same creepy feeling as the meme. Using the words "fad" and "woo" are not arguments in and of themselves. It's great for entertainment but nobody changes their minds when being bashed with their (self-proclaimed) snarky point of view. It is just shaming people. But if you are solely posting it to relate what the MFP community thinks of the alkaline diet, their concept of an alkaline diet does not come anywhere close to the concepts discussed in the links I posted. At least one of the links I posted provided actual blood measurements after eating different foods. Not the pH of foods themselves (I feel like I've been saying this ad nauseum). But nobody seems to be reading or commenting on the links.
In my experience a lot of the reason why people move to using snark is that proponents of things like the alkaline diet (or using ACV for weight loss or detox teas or the idea that gluten is a toxin for everyone or homeopathic treatments, etc) is that you can't use reason with many proponents of pseudoscience. If you come with facts, they will be dismissed with comments like "Well, everybody is different so you can't say it doesn't work" or "Yeah, no studies show it works because studies are biased/it's impossible to quantify/scientists lie because big pharma."
I've been in multiple discussions where people try to change someone's mind with facts and I've seen countless more. I don't know if I have ever seen someone look at facts and then post they realize that they were wrong. So I can understand why people move to snark because many proponents of pseudoscience have absolutely insulated themselves from rationally engaging with counterarguments.10 -
"you cannot change the laws of physics" - Scotty12
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I'm not a scientist, so I have to do a lot of reading and rereading, and I'm pretty open to multiple interpretations on things that I don't understand. That said, a lot of the studies presented seem to be conflating an "alkaline" diet with a balanced diet. An increase in fruits and vegetables in a diet otherwise lacking them showed positive correlations with decreased disease and morbidity. "No *kitten*, Sherlock!" was my reaction to that.
I'm very skeptical of diet-induced metabolic acidosis. Mainly because I can't find any major organization discussing it (my go-to for confirmations like that are the Mayo Clinic, CDC, WHO, etc.). Perhaps it's less about the acidity or alkalinity of the diet and more about people meeting their body's micronutrient needs? (Again, I'm not a scientist, so I'm just spitballing here.)12 -
I'm not a scientist, so I have to do a lot of reading and rereading, and I'm pretty open to multiple interpretations on things that I don't understand. That said, a lot of the studies presented seem to be conflating an "alkaline" diet with a balanced diet. An increase in fruits and vegetables in a diet otherwise lacking them showed positive correlations with decreased disease and morbidity. "No *kitten*, Sherlock!" was my reaction to that.
I'm very skeptical of diet-induced metabolic acidosis. Mainly because I can't find any major organization discussing it (my go-to for confirmations like that are the Mayo Clinic, CDC, WHO, etc.). Perhaps it's less about the acidity or alkalinity of the diet and more about people meeting their body's micronutrient needs? (Again, I'm not a scientist, so I'm just spitballing here.)
This is a good point and I think it goes beyond the alkaline diet to many of the plans we see people insisting made them feel better (keto, veganism, low carb, "clean eating," etc). If you're eating a diet that is relatively low in nutrients and you switch to a more focused plan that gets you more, you'll probably feel better. It's nothing inherent to the specific diet, it's the better nutrition overall that the body is responding to.
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I'm not a scientist, so I have to do a lot of reading and rereading, and I'm pretty open to multiple interpretations on things that I don't understand. That said, a lot of the studies presented seem to be conflating an "alkaline" diet with a balanced diet. An increase in fruits and vegetables in a diet otherwise lacking them showed positive correlations with decreased disease and morbidity. "No *kitten*, Sherlock!" was my reaction to that.
I'm very skeptical of diet-induced metabolic acidosis. Mainly because I can't find any major organization discussing it (my go-to for confirmations like that are the Mayo Clinic, CDC, WHO, etc.). Perhaps it's less about the acidity or alkalinity of the diet and more about people meeting their body's micronutrient needs? (Again, I'm not a scientist, so I'm just spitballing here.)
Hmmm... NIH is not good enough? CDC, NIH, FDA are all under US HHS AFAIK.
But I found pages from both CDC and Mayo clinic on thiamine deficiency causing it. And others on soy based formula causing it. Those examples are about acute acidosis though and I won't make the mistake of linking any more papers here.
Agree that it does seem to be about micronutrients (particularly electrolytes).
So long and thanks for all the fish.1 -
ronjsteele1 wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »lobotomybunny wrote: »How did you read that so fast? I am listening to all comments and am asking for more than just a "no." Sorry.
I think the scientist here explained things fairly well and didn't just say "no."
Because scientists are no different then any other profession. Ask ten of them the same question and you'll get ten different answers. Why would anyone put their stock in one person's statements? Consider it amongst numerous positions, sure. But believe one person on this site because they're a scientist? Forget it.
I don't think you'll get a whole lot of scientists having much debate about this particular issue...
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lobotomybunny wrote: »I'm not a scientist, so I have to do a lot of reading and rereading, and I'm pretty open to multiple interpretations on things that I don't understand. That said, a lot of the studies presented seem to be conflating an "alkaline" diet with a balanced diet. An increase in fruits and vegetables in a diet otherwise lacking them showed positive correlations with decreased disease and morbidity. "No *kitten*, Sherlock!" was my reaction to that.
I'm very skeptical of diet-induced metabolic acidosis. Mainly because I can't find any major organization discussing it (my go-to for confirmations like that are the Mayo Clinic, CDC, WHO, etc.). Perhaps it's less about the acidity or alkalinity of the diet and more about people meeting their body's micronutrient needs? (Again, I'm not a scientist, so I'm just spitballing here.)
Hmmm... NIH is not good enough? CDC, NIH, FDA are all under US HHS AFAIK.
But I found pages from both CDC and Mayo clinic on thiamine deficiency causing it. And others on soy based formula causing it. Those examples are about acute acidosis though and I won't make the mistake of linking any more papers here.
Agree that it does seem to be about micronutrients (particularly electrolytes).
So long and thanks for all the fish.
But again, you are talking here about a balanced diet versus malnourishment, not one that specifically claims to change the pH. The majority of these types of diets (which is part of what makes it a fad diet, IMO) are claimed to be beneficial for everyone, not a subset of people with specific medical needs. No one, I'm aware of recommends obtaining blood work to evaluate their pH prior to undertaking the alkalizing diet. So by what is success measured? In hospital, when patient's are diagnosed with acidosis, they aren't prescribed a dietary change, they are given whatever is needed to change it, depending on the underlying cause. A balanced diet is not going to have a significant impact. A poor diet with excess or lack of specific nutrients, of course, has a considerable impact on health and well-being. That's not specific to an alkalizing diet.6 -
nutmegoreo wrote: »lobotomybunny wrote: »I'm not a scientist, so I have to do a lot of reading and rereading, and I'm pretty open to multiple interpretations on things that I don't understand. That said, a lot of the studies presented seem to be conflating an "alkaline" diet with a balanced diet. An increase in fruits and vegetables in a diet otherwise lacking them showed positive correlations with decreased disease and morbidity. "No *kitten*, Sherlock!" was my reaction to that.
I'm very skeptical of diet-induced metabolic acidosis. Mainly because I can't find any major organization discussing it (my go-to for confirmations like that are the Mayo Clinic, CDC, WHO, etc.). Perhaps it's less about the acidity or alkalinity of the diet and more about people meeting their body's micronutrient needs? (Again, I'm not a scientist, so I'm just spitballing here.)
Hmmm... NIH is not good enough? CDC, NIH, FDA are all under US HHS AFAIK.
But I found pages from both CDC and Mayo clinic on thiamine deficiency causing it. And others on soy based formula causing it. Those examples are about acute acidosis though and I won't make the mistake of linking any more papers here.
Agree that it does seem to be about micronutrients (particularly electrolytes).
So long and thanks for all the fish.
But again, you are talking here about a balanced diet versus malnourishment, not one that specifically claims to change the pH. The majority of these types of diets (which is part of what makes it a fad diet, IMO) are claimed to be beneficial for everyone, not a subset of people with specific medical needs. No one, I'm aware of recommends obtaining blood work to evaluate their pH prior to undertaking the alkalizing diet. So by what is success measured? In hospital, when patient's are diagnosed with acidosis, they aren't prescribed a dietary change, they are given whatever is needed to change it, depending on the underlying cause. A balanced diet is not going to have a significant impact. A poor diet with excess or lack of specific nutrients, of course, has a considerable impact on health and well-being. That's not specific to an alkalizing diet.
I'd also think that if this was a huge mainstream issue that ph testing would be a regular thing at your annual physical and wellness checkup. I get a whole host of blood work done annually...to my knowledge my Dr. has never checked my Ph.4 -
Here's something to start with:lobotomybunny wrote: »The links described the theory that a Western diet increases a body's acid load (and I summarized the reasons for it, e.g., potassium etc or lack thereof), and were provided so that the diet, as discussed in the scientific literature that I could find, would be well-defined in this discussion, as opposed to whatever version of a diet is assumed by its name.
The links I looked at did not describe a specific set of foods that would supposedly be the alkaline diet. I admit I did not read all of them.
More significantly, I don't eat the SAD (western pattern diet) and most here who are interested in nutrition probably also do not. I am experimenting right now with something else, so not exactly eating my regular diet, but I generally plan meals around vegetables and from logging at Chronometer am reasonably sure that my diet does not share two common issues with the SAD, low potassium vs. sodium, and low omega-3 vs. omega-6. So if the issue is something like "too little potassium" or "too much sodium," I don't think the "alkaline diet" is really the most sensible approach. Is the problem with the SAD that it is too acidic? Given the main issues with the SAD, I doubt it but that might be a specific thing to discuss.So.. Because it seems to be THE major concern for people who call woo, I am looking for convincing that food-driven acidosis cannot exist
I did not see anything in the articles you posted suggesting that it could (and I mean acidosis as in http://www.healthline.com/health/acidosis?m=2). Can you point to a specific portion that you think disagrees?
Note, I don't think effect from drinking to extreme excess=effect caused by food choice.1 -
nutmegoreo wrote: »lobotomybunny wrote: »I'm not a scientist, so I have to do a lot of reading and rereading, and I'm pretty open to multiple interpretations on things that I don't understand. That said, a lot of the studies presented seem to be conflating an "alkaline" diet with a balanced diet. An increase in fruits and vegetables in a diet otherwise lacking them showed positive correlations with decreased disease and morbidity. "No *kitten*, Sherlock!" was my reaction to that.
I'm very skeptical of diet-induced metabolic acidosis. Mainly because I can't find any major organization discussing it (my go-to for confirmations like that are the Mayo Clinic, CDC, WHO, etc.). Perhaps it's less about the acidity or alkalinity of the diet and more about people meeting their body's micronutrient needs? (Again, I'm not a scientist, so I'm just spitballing here.)
Hmmm... NIH is not good enough? CDC, NIH, FDA are all under US HHS AFAIK.
But I found pages from both CDC and Mayo clinic on thiamine deficiency causing it. And others on soy based formula causing it. Those examples are about acute acidosis though and I won't make the mistake of linking any more papers here.
Agree that it does seem to be about micronutrients (particularly electrolytes).
So long and thanks for all the fish.
But again, you are talking here about a balanced diet versus malnourishment, not one that specifically claims to change the pH.
Yes, this is really the key point.
Can severe malnourishment cause something (like an electolyte imbalance, inability to use nutrients from food properly, probably other things)? Yes, absolutely.
That is different from the alkaline diet claims, which are that your diet is too acidic and is causing hard for that reason. I think not getting enough potassium over time is bad for you and does damage. I don't think that's evidence for the "alkaline diet."2 -
cwolfman13 wrote: »nutmegoreo wrote: »lobotomybunny wrote: »I'm not a scientist, so I have to do a lot of reading and rereading, and I'm pretty open to multiple interpretations on things that I don't understand. That said, a lot of the studies presented seem to be conflating an "alkaline" diet with a balanced diet. An increase in fruits and vegetables in a diet otherwise lacking them showed positive correlations with decreased disease and morbidity. "No *kitten*, Sherlock!" was my reaction to that.
I'm very skeptical of diet-induced metabolic acidosis. Mainly because I can't find any major organization discussing it (my go-to for confirmations like that are the Mayo Clinic, CDC, WHO, etc.). Perhaps it's less about the acidity or alkalinity of the diet and more about people meeting their body's micronutrient needs? (Again, I'm not a scientist, so I'm just spitballing here.)
Hmmm... NIH is not good enough? CDC, NIH, FDA are all under US HHS AFAIK.
But I found pages from both CDC and Mayo clinic on thiamine deficiency causing it. And others on soy based formula causing it. Those examples are about acute acidosis though and I won't make the mistake of linking any more papers here.
Agree that it does seem to be about micronutrients (particularly electrolytes).
So long and thanks for all the fish.
But again, you are talking here about a balanced diet versus malnourishment, not one that specifically claims to change the pH. The majority of these types of diets (which is part of what makes it a fad diet, IMO) are claimed to be beneficial for everyone, not a subset of people with specific medical needs. No one, I'm aware of recommends obtaining blood work to evaluate their pH prior to undertaking the alkalizing diet. So by what is success measured? In hospital, when patient's are diagnosed with acidosis, they aren't prescribed a dietary change, they are given whatever is needed to change it, depending on the underlying cause. A balanced diet is not going to have a significant impact. A poor diet with excess or lack of specific nutrients, of course, has a considerable impact on health and well-being. That's not specific to an alkalizing diet.
I'd also think that if this was a huge mainstream issue that ph testing would be a regular thing at your annual physical and wellness checkup. I get a whole host of blood work done annually...to my knowledge my Dr. has never checked my Ph.
That's because it happens with specific disease states, lung and kidney, diabetes, and alcoholism, along with a few lesser common causes such as severe dehydration, etc. Diet is certainly an important consideration with kidney failure and diabetes, and malnourishment is common with prolonged alcoholism, but again, these are specific subsets of the population.2 -
cwolfman13 wrote: »ronjsteele1 wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »lobotomybunny wrote: »How did you read that so fast? I am listening to all comments and am asking for more than just a "no." Sorry.
I think the scientist here explained things fairly well and didn't just say "no."
Because scientists are no different then any other profession. Ask ten of them the same question and you'll get ten different answers. Why would anyone put their stock in one person's statements? Consider it amongst numerous positions, sure. But believe one person on this site because they're a scientist? Forget it.
I don't think you'll get a whole lot of scientists having much debate about this particular issue...
Yeah, pretty sure 10 out of 10 scientists would agree that no matter what you eat, it will fall into a big balloon filled with extremely potent acid and get mixed together, and brought down to the acid's pH.
Well, maybe not Dr. Oz.4
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