Cannot lose weight and gain muscle? Whats the Science behind this??
Replies
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I think from what I have read you cannot technically convert muscle into fat although the recomp process seems to be similar to that but instead of the fat actually converting your body will use the fat as energy to repair your muscles. Thanks everyone for the advice though. I think that I am going to continue with my cardio routine and change up my strength training a little just to make it more consistent. My goal of course it to gain muscle but as long as I am getting stronger and losing weight then I am okay with that for now because I still have about 100lbs to lose3
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My take is it's not that you're converting fat cells into muscle cells, it's that you're building muscle cells through lifting weights and you're body is burning the fat cells to power the new muscle cells.5
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terryt1992 wrote: »I think from what I have read you cannot technically convert muscle into fat although the recomp process seems to be similar to that but instead of the fat actually converting your body will use the fat as energy to repair your muscles. Thanks everyone for the advice though. I think that I am going to continue with my cardio routine and change up my strength training a little just to make it more consistent. My goal of course it to gain muscle but as long as I am getting stronger and losing weight then I am okay with that for now because I still have about 100lbs to lose
trust me losing weight while still lifting will change how your body looks. Im smaller at a larger weight than I was at a lower weight.I dont think I would have been able to accomplish that without lifting.4 -
CharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »Tropicoolblonde wrote: »It's the same as people who say muscle weighs more than fat.. it does not it is more dense than fat.. with density being a function of mass and volume.. You can CONVERT fat to muscle while losing weight. Look at long distance runners...we are all lean as hell, and we are almost exclusively muscle.
if you could convert fat to muscle then obese people who start lifting while obese would become ripped. it doesnt work that way.
Sure it does... Lots of obese people who start lifting while obese become ripped...
Not all of them. but enough to invalidate your assertion1 -
stanmann571 wrote: »CharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »Tropicoolblonde wrote: »It's the same as people who say muscle weighs more than fat.. it does not it is more dense than fat.. with density being a function of mass and volume.. You can CONVERT fat to muscle while losing weight. Look at long distance runners...we are all lean as hell, and we are almost exclusively muscle.
if you could convert fat to muscle then obese people who start lifting while obese would become ripped. it doesnt work that way.
Sure it does... Lots of obese people who start lifting while obese become ripped...
Not all of them. but enough to invalidate your assertion
you cannot change fat tissue into muscle tissue. they can build muscle and lose the fat and look more muscular,also a lot of them build muscle by carrying all that weight around so what you see after they lose the fat is that muscle.you cant change one type of tissue into anything type of tissue/muscle,etc. so no it doesnt invalidate my assertion.7 -
I think the reason people keep repeating in these forums that you can't get muscle while in a deficit (which is untrue; you can) is that they are confusing this with the fact that you can't get heavier and claim it's muscle while on a deficit (which is true, you can't).
In case I was not clear to answer your question - there isn't any science behind it. It is not true.5 -
moonstroller wrote: »My take is it's not that you're converting fat cells into muscle cells, it's that you're building muscle cells through lifting weights and you're body is burning the fat cells to power the new muscle cells.
edited for misreading0 -
CharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »Tropicoolblonde wrote: »It's the same as people who say muscle weighs more than fat.. it does not it is more dense than fat.. with density being a function of mass and volume.. You can CONVERT fat to muscle while losing weight. Look at long distance runners...we are all lean as hell, and we are almost exclusively muscle.
if you could convert fat to muscle then obese people who start lifting while obese would become ripped. it doesnt work that way.
If they eat at maintenance they will become after a long time. Surely you've heard of recomp?
The conversion is not direct of course. The fat is converted into energy which with the aminoacids you ingest is turned into muscle mass when you train progressively.2 -
Here's five examples from personal experience:
1/ Teenage to early 20's - male primed for easy, fast muscle growth. Relatively few training years. "Getting in shape" meant gaining muscle size whilst losing fat for overall weight loss. Probably an element of training harder than most people and perhaps somewhat genetically gifted.
2/ Age 31 - recovering from major injury and months on crutches. Quickly regained 3" of a 5" loss of quad circumference whilst losing some of the weight I had gained.
3/ Early 40's - switch up of exercise routine, far more volume, slow weight loss. Modest but measurable/noticeable muscle size gains and small weight loss.
4/ Early 50's - returning to a previous training level, very small calorie deficit, working hard in the gym, good protein intake. Six months gaining approx. 1lb muscle and losing 2lbs of fat per month.
5/ Age 57 - more intelligent exercise programming (thanks SideSteal....), very small calorie deficit. Gained some size in arms and chest, lost fat, lost a little weight.
Really if you are over fat, under trained (under a previous level or current genetic potential), have a small deficit, good protein intake, work hard in the gym and don't expect to look like Arnie then yes it's possible, especially for males.
And the worst that might happen if you do all the right things is achieving the personal best that you could have - whether that's adding a little muscle or preserving the maximum amount you could is really irrelevant.9 -
Here's five examples from personal experience:
1/ Teenage to early 20's - male primed for easy, fast muscle growth. Relatively few training years. "Getting in shape" meant gaining muscle size whilst losing fat for overall weight loss. Probably an element of training harder than most people and perhaps somewhat genetically gifted.
2/ Age 31 - recovering from major injury and months on crutches. Quickly regained 3" of a 5" loss of quad circumference whilst losing some of the weight I had gained.
3/ Early 40's - switch up of exercise routine, far more volume, slow weight loss. Modest but measurable/noticeable muscle size gains and small weight loss.
4/ Early 50's - returning to a previous training level, very small calorie deficit, working hard in the gym, good protein intake. Six months gaining approx. 1lb muscle and losing 2lbs of fat per month.
5/ Age 57 - more intelligent exercise programming (thanks SideSteal....), very small calorie deficit. Gained some size in arms and chest, lost fat, lost a little weight.
Really if you are over fat, under trained (under a previous level or current genetic potential), have a small deficit, good protein intake, work hard in the gym and don't expect to look like Arnie then yes it's possible, especially for males.
And the worst that might happen if you do all the right things is achieving the personal best that you could have - whether that's adding a little muscle or preserving the maximum amount you could is really irrelevant.
I don't understand why there are so many who are married to the idea that it's impossible to cut pounds and gain muscle from a 40lb+ overfat situation.2 -
gebeziseva wrote: »CharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »Tropicoolblonde wrote: »It's the same as people who say muscle weighs more than fat.. it does not it is more dense than fat.. with density being a function of mass and volume.. You can CONVERT fat to muscle while losing weight. Look at long distance runners...we are all lean as hell, and we are almost exclusively muscle.
if you could convert fat to muscle then obese people who start lifting while obese would become ripped. it doesnt work that way.
If they eat at maintenance they will become after a long time. Surely you've heard of recomp?
The conversion is not direct of course. The fat is converted into energy which with the aminoacids you ingest is turned into muscle mass when you train progressively.
Im not talking about recomp. I do know what recomp is. you cannot change fat cells into muscle and you cannot turn fat into muscle.fat can be converted into energy sure but that is not how muscle mass is made https://www.unm.edu/~lkravitz/Article folder/musclesgrowLK.html
https://examine.com/nutrition/will-lifting-weights-convert-my-fat-into-muscle/2 -
CharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »moonstroller wrote: »My take is it's not that you're converting fat cells into muscle cells, it's that you're building muscle cells through lifting weights and you're body is burning the fat cells to power the new muscle cells.
nope. when you lose fat,your fat cells shrink they dont convert into anything else,they stay fat cells. if you were to gain weight they would enlarge again.
how is this a nope?
the poster said not converting but using the energy in the fat cells which is basically true...2 -
CharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »moonstroller wrote: »My take is it's not that you're converting fat cells into muscle cells, it's that you're building muscle cells through lifting weights and you're body is burning the fat cells to power the new muscle cells.
nope. when you lose fat,your fat cells shrink they dont convert into anything else,they stay fat cells. if you were to gain weight they would enlarge again.
how is this a nope?
the poster said not converting but using the energy in the fat cells which is basically true...
I misread on that one,I saw that their take was they were converting one from another so I will fix that. but I still stand by you cant covert one cell to another0 -
CharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »CharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »moonstroller wrote: »My take is it's not that you're converting fat cells into muscle cells, it's that you're building muscle cells through lifting weights and you're body is burning the fat cells to power the new muscle cells.
nope. when you lose fat,your fat cells shrink they dont convert into anything else,they stay fat cells. if you were to gain weight they would enlarge again.
how is this a nope?
the poster said not converting but using the energy in the fat cells which is basically true...
I misread on that one. so I will fix that. but I still stand by you cant covert one cell to another
absolutely...I still am in shock it was said.1 -
gebeziseva wrote: »I think the reason people keep repeating in these forums that you can't get muscle while in a deficit (which is untrue; you can) is that they are confusing this with the fact that you can't get heavier and claim it's muscle while on a deficit (which is true, you can't).
In case I was not clear to answer your question - there isn't any science behind it. It is not true.
Yep. We get so many (women especially) who come here and say "I've been working out and eating healthy for 3 weeks and I gained 2 lbs what's going on???" And a bunch of newbies will tell her she probably just gained muscle from all the jogging. So we tend to knee-jerk reaction with - It's not possible!
I do think a lot of people who are losing weight and doing mostly cardio think they have built muscle when what really happened is they revealed the muscle they already had by losing fat. But all these posts have clearly explained how it is possible given the right conditions and good training.
OP congrats on your success so far - Keep it up!!!5 -
terryt1992 wrote: »I think from what I have read you cannot technically convert muscle into fat although the recomp process seems to be similar to that but instead of the fat actually converting your body will use the fat as energy to repair your muscles. Thanks everyone for the advice though. I think that I am going to continue with my cardio routine and change up my strength training a little just to make it more consistent. My goal of course it to gain muscle but as long as I am getting stronger and losing weight then I am okay with that for now because I still have about 100lbs to lose
Stick with it and enjoy getting stronger.1 -
gebeziseva wrote: »I think the reason people keep repeating in these forums that you can't get muscle while in a deficit (which is untrue; you can) is that they are confusing this with the fact that you can't get heavier and claim it's muscle while on a deficit (which is true, you can't).
In case I was not clear to answer your question - there isn't any science behind it. It is not true.
Yep. We get so many (women especially) who come here and say "I've been working out and eating healthy for 3 weeks and I gained 2 lbs what's going on???" And a bunch of newbies will tell her she probably just gained muscle from all the jogging. So we tend to knee-jerk reaction with - It's not possible!
I do think a lot of people who are losing weight and doing mostly cardio think they have built muscle when what really happened is they revealed the muscle they already had by losing fat. But all these posts have clearly explained how it is possible given the right conditions and good training.
OP congrats on your success so far - Keep it up!!!
It's true that the answer does require some context.
A person eating at a huge deficit and doing cardio workouts isn't putting on muscle. But a person who's eating at a reasonable/appropriate deficit, getting adequate protein intake and running a reasonable strength training program has a much better chance - especially if they're new to training and overfat (as has been previously discussed).
With that said, even under optimal circumstances (the latter situation above), it's going to be very highly unlikely that one is putting on enough muscle to offset their weight loss. Losing a pound or two of weight per week isn't hard or unrealistic (over time, given that weight loss isn't linear). But gaining a pound or two a week of muscle, especially while in a deficit, is very unrealistic. It's not even realistic while in a caloric surplus and under optimal diet/training conditions.
So the "It's not possible" response makes sense when an OP posts that they're eating 1000-1200 calories/day and doing six 60-minute cardio workouts per week, but at a standstill or even gaining weight - and somebody 'helpfully' says "maybe you're just building muscle". No, that's probably not happening. Not happening at all.5 -
I never believed it. I think it depends on how much your are cutting. If you're eating 500 cals a day, you may not build muscle.
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To me, "you can't gain muscle while losing fat" stems from the same misconception as "you must not eat below your BMR." Both presume your body makes a judgment about what kinds of energy deficits it's willing to tap into fat stores for.
"You ran a half marathon today and you want me to recover 1000 kcal from fat stores, but you'll still be above your BMR? Cool. You lay in bed all all day because you're sick, and really couldn't stomach a whole lot of food, and now you're about 100 calories below your BMR, and you want me to recover 500 kcal from fat stores so you can reach your sedentary TDEE?!?!? Are you crazy?!?!? No way!!"
"You lifted yesterday and you've eaten plenty of protein, and you want me to tap your more-than-adequate fat stores to make up your deficit of X calories, including the energy needed for the process of rebuilding muscle? I don't think so. Sure I'll get X calories from fat stores if you create an equivalent deficit from some other combination of calorie input and calorie output, but no way am I going to tap the fat stores to make up for a deficit that includes either calories burned lifting or calories used in rebuilding muscle. Uh-uh. No way. Not ... gonna ... happen."4 -
Dear terryT1992
Point 1 : fat cannot be converted into muscles
Point 2 : to lose fat you need to be in calories deficit
Point 3: to gain muscle you need to be on calories surplus.
Now I am not saying that you can't gain muscles while loosing fat, you can but that won't be right approach.
The difference you will see in your body after few months will be next to none.
The best approach is to bring your body fat % to 12-13% and then focus on muscle gain. This is help to avoide excess fat gain during gaining season and you can gain a lean muscle mass.0 -
lynn_glenmont wrote: »To me, "you can't gain muscle while losing fat" stems from the same misconception as "you must not eat below your BMR." Both presume your body makes a judgment about what kinds of energy deficits it's willing to tap into fat stores for.
"You ran a half marathon today and you want me to recover 1000 kcal from fat stores, but you'll still be above your BMR? Cool. You lay in bed all all day because you're sick, and really couldn't stomach a whole lot of food, and now you're about 100 calories below your BMR, and you want me to recover 500 kcal from fat stores so you can reach your sedentary TDEE?!?!? Are you crazy?!?!? No way!!"
"You lifted yesterday and you've eaten plenty of protein, and you want me to tap your more-than-adequate fat stores to make up your deficit of X calories, including the energy needed for the process of rebuilding muscle? I don't think so. Sure I'll get X calories from fat stores if you create an equivalent deficit from some other combination of calorie input and calorie output, but no way am I going to tap the fat stores to make up for a deficit that includes either calories burned lifting or calories used in rebuilding muscle. Uh-uh. No way. Not ... gonna ... happen."
Repairing muscle != making more than you had before. You can build some extra muscle in a deficit but the amount is limited compared to actually having ample building material at the ready.
From an evolutionary view this makes perfect sense, not only does building extra muscle increase your deficit, having the extra muscle increases your TDEE (by a bit at least). Not exactly things that would be beneficial to surviving in a (as perceived by your body) shortage of food.3 -
@terryt1992 The thing about strength training is DO IT.
That you began your weight loss journey with strength training is FABULOUS.
That you've lose 80 lb is WONDERFUL.
You benefited from strength training because you were previously out of condition, overweight, and flabby.
For people such as you were, strength training in a calorie deficit can indeed cause muscle growth, but that's only going to be about half as much as you'd get in a calorie surplus. The ability to grow muscle in a calorie deficit disappears as you become more fit, more well conditioned, and closer to a healthy weight. DON'T STOP LIFTING.
Lifting is going to be the best thing you can do to reduce the appearance of loose skin, and the best thing you can do to preserve as much muscle as possible while you continue to lose weight.6 -
The science supports obese beginners to lifting being able to do both unenhanced.
http://www.aworkoutroutine.com/how-to-build-muscle-and-lose-fat/2 -
JeromeBarry1 wrote: »@terryt1992 The thing about strength training is DO IT.
That you began your weight loss journey with strength training is FABULOUS.
That you've lose 80 lb is WONDERFUL.
You benefited from strength training because you were previously out of condition, overweight, and flabby.
For people such as you were, strength training in a calorie deficit can indeed cause muscle growth, but that's only going to be about half as much as you'd get in a calorie surplus. The ability to grow muscle in a calorie deficit disappears as you become more fit, more well conditioned, and closer to a healthy weight. DON'T STOP LIFTING.
Lifting is going to be the best thing you can do to reduce the appearance of loose skin, and the best thing you can do to preserve as much muscle as possible while you continue to lose weight.
Started lifting at 225, now we here. It helps tremendously with looking how you expect to look post cut
Take advantage of the lean mass you have by being obese in the first place. The only good thing to come out of my weight problem hahaha TONS of lean mass from hauling around lard!
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mrsnattybulking wrote: »JeromeBarry1 wrote: »@terryt1992 The thing about strength training is DO IT.
That you began your weight loss journey with strength training is FABULOUS.
That you've lose 80 lb is WONDERFUL.
You benefited from strength training because you were previously out of condition, overweight, and flabby.
For people such as you were, strength training in a calorie deficit can indeed cause muscle growth, but that's only going to be about half as much as you'd get in a calorie surplus. The ability to grow muscle in a calorie deficit disappears as you become more fit, more well conditioned, and closer to a healthy weight. DON'T STOP LIFTING.
Lifting is going to be the best thing you can do to reduce the appearance of loose skin, and the best thing you can do to preserve as much muscle as possible while you continue to lose weight.
Started lifting at 225, now we here. It helps tremendously with looking how you expect to look post cut
Take advantage of the lean mass you have by being obese in the first place. The only good thing to come out of my weight problem hahaha TONS of lean mass from hauling around lard!
Out of curiosity, how active were you before losing weight? I was very sedentary and while I've lifted through all but a few months of weight loss, I don't have nearly the lean mass you do. I'm assuming you weren't as sloth-like as me but I thought I'd ask
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mrsnattybulking wrote: »JeromeBarry1 wrote: »@terryt1992 The thing about strength training is DO IT.
That you began your weight loss journey with strength training is FABULOUS.
That you've lose 80 lb is WONDERFUL.
You benefited from strength training because you were previously out of condition, overweight, and flabby.
For people such as you were, strength training in a calorie deficit can indeed cause muscle growth, but that's only going to be about half as much as you'd get in a calorie surplus. The ability to grow muscle in a calorie deficit disappears as you become more fit, more well conditioned, and closer to a healthy weight. DON'T STOP LIFTING.
Lifting is going to be the best thing you can do to reduce the appearance of loose skin, and the best thing you can do to preserve as much muscle as possible while you continue to lose weight.
Started lifting at 225, now we here. It helps tremendously with looking how you expect to look post cut
Take advantage of the lean mass you have by being obese in the first place. The only good thing to come out of my weight problem hahaha TONS of lean mass from hauling around lard!
Out of curiosity, how active were you before losing weight? I was very sedentary and while I've lifted through all but a few months of weight loss, I don't have nearly the lean mass you do. I'm assuming you weren't as sloth-like as me but I thought I'd ask
Before losing weight I had a desk job and my exercise was walking from the couch to the fridge lol
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mrsnattybulking wrote: »mrsnattybulking wrote: »JeromeBarry1 wrote: »@terryt1992 The thing about strength training is DO IT.
That you began your weight loss journey with strength training is FABULOUS.
That you've lose 80 lb is WONDERFUL.
You benefited from strength training because you were previously out of condition, overweight, and flabby.
For people such as you were, strength training in a calorie deficit can indeed cause muscle growth, but that's only going to be about half as much as you'd get in a calorie surplus. The ability to grow muscle in a calorie deficit disappears as you become more fit, more well conditioned, and closer to a healthy weight. DON'T STOP LIFTING.
Lifting is going to be the best thing you can do to reduce the appearance of loose skin, and the best thing you can do to preserve as much muscle as possible while you continue to lose weight.
Started lifting at 225, now we here. It helps tremendously with looking how you expect to look post cut
Take advantage of the lean mass you have by being obese in the first place. The only good thing to come out of my weight problem hahaha TONS of lean mass from hauling around lard!
Out of curiosity, how active were you before losing weight? I was very sedentary and while I've lifted through all but a few months of weight loss, I don't have nearly the lean mass you do. I'm assuming you weren't as sloth-like as me but I thought I'd ask
Before losing weight I had a desk job and my exercise was walking from the couch to the fridge lol
Ha! Too funny. Well you look fantastic 1 -
@SezxyStef Good points, but I have to disagree on one... I've seen ultrarunners with calves like Henry Moore statues.lynn_glenmont wrote: »To me, "you can't gain muscle while losing fat" stems from the same misconception as "you must not eat below your BMR." Both presume your body makes a judgment about what kinds of energy deficits it's willing to tap into fat stores for.
"You ran a half marathon today and you want me to recover 1000 kcal from fat stores, but you'll still be above your BMR? Cool. You lay in bed all all day because you're sick, and really couldn't stomach a whole lot of food, and now you're about 100 calories below your BMR, and you want me to recover 500 kcal from fat stores so you can reach your sedentary TDEE?!?!? Are you crazy?!?!? No way!!"
"You lifted yesterday and you've eaten plenty of protein, and you want me to tap your more-than-adequate fat stores to make up your deficit of X calories, including the energy needed for the process of rebuilding muscle? I don't think so. Sure I'll get X calories from fat stores if you create an equivalent deficit from some other combination of calorie input and calorie output, but no way am I going to tap the fat stores to make up for a deficit that includes either calories burned lifting or calories used in rebuilding muscle. Uh-uh. No way. Not ... gonna ... happen."
@lynn_glenmont
The first two make sense, but the last one makes my brain hurt.
General comments;
If you're lifting, you're still taking in calories. The body doesn't have to convert fat to energy for all the calories you're burning, so it has access to calories for muscle repair, assuming you're eating above your BMR.
I'd be interested (but probably out of my depth) to see a discussion on how/if the body can maintain anabolic and catabolic processes simultaneously, considering we all have the hormones that regulate both processes.
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i was 50 Ibs over weight n it was before the days of MFP. i had no tools n no knowledge back then. i ate better n went to.the gym 5 times a week lifting. i lose 50 Ibs of fat n maybe i gained 2 or 3 or none Ibs of muscle during the process. i was not big in any way but much more define n i can even see my six pack. it definitely LOOKS like i gained muscle
OP, regardless whether theres ANY muscle gain or not, it is the right thing for u to do. u will look n feel much better n people also will tell u that gain tons of muscle, even though they were just ur own original ones but was hiding under the fat n now they r stronger n more define.
IMHO, JUST DO IT!
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