Cannot lose weight and gain muscle? Whats the Science behind this??
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You can "recomp" (burn fat and add a bit of muscle) and see reasonable results for a while under a few select cases but it will still require a lot of discipline and dedication in the gym and with your diet.
Being new to weight training (untrained) or returning from a layoff (de-trained) and also overweight are among the cases.
However the muscle gains will not be as dramatic as you are probably hoping and will not go on for as long as you may like.
You can gain a lot of strength, but that is not the same as gaining a lot of muscle.
As others have said, Lyle McDonald is the man when it comes to these sort of questions.
The more fat you burn, the lower your overall body fat percentage and the subsequent insulin response changes will continue to make it harder and harder to gain additional muscle. Remember you are eating at a deficit - not enough Calories In to grow on.
You can argue the thermodynamics all you want but I will warn you that I have a degree in Engineering and I've studied a lot of physics.
It may look like you gained a lot of muscle but that will be mostly due to the lower body fat levels and increased definition.
I think most of the people on both sides here are telling you the same thing.
They are just focusing on either "it can be done" or "it can be done efficiently" and/or "for a long time".
Generally speaking a "recomp" to a certain body fat percentage (realistic expectations here) might take twice as long as an equivalent cut and bulk cycle. That being said, some people still prefer to recomp because there is no need to mess around with changing calories and macros all the time.
For many experienced lifters eating at "maintenance" while training and "recomp" are functionally the same thing.2 -
You can definitely gain muscle while in a deficit but yeah, very specific plan, a lot of discipline, a lot of gym time. The idea of having to gain body fat to build muscle is antiquated. The poster above in terms of insulin response... I think he has that backward... the higher your body fat the less insulin response you have. You have to eat just enough so your body doesn't think it's starving but not enough to gain fat. The body is super smart, it won't automatically go after the muscles first if it doesn't have too. Quality protein at a nice even pace throughout the day with every meal... blah, blah, blah. Anyway, it can be done. I am actually doing it right now for a competition in November. Start lean or get lean and the build muscle, not the other way around.1
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Mycophilia wrote: »BusyRaeNOTBusty wrote: »Tacklewasher wrote: »
These are great links! Here's another one that's really good:
https://muscleandstrengthpyramids.com/calorie-deficit-gain-weight/
That is from Eric Helms also (same person that @jemhh linked in the video above. Solid information, he's extremely knowledgeable about nutrition and training. The one linked by @BusyRaeNOTBusty is Lyle McDonald, who is another excellent source.
As others have said, it is possible to gain muscle while in a deficit. The gains are smaller than if you were at maintenance or in a surplus, but the OP is in one of the circumstances in which it is particularly feasible (overfat beginner).
Strength gains are a separate topic from mass/muscle gains. It's possible to make quite significant strength gains even while in a deficit, especially as a beginner. Strength gains are largely driven by neuromuscular adaptation, along with becoming more proficient at the exercises you're doing. There's a big window there - you can put on a considerable amount of strength irrespective of muscle increase.3 -
cushman5279 wrote: »You can definitely gain muscle while in a deficit but yeah, very specific plan, a lot of discipline, a lot of gym time. The idea of having to gain body fat to build muscle is antiquated. The poster above in terms of insulin response... I think he has that backward... the higher your body fat the less insulin response you have. You have to eat just enough so your body doesn't think it's starving but not enough to gain fat. The body is super smart, it won't automatically go after the muscles first if it doesn't have too. Quality protein at a nice even pace throughout the day with every meal... blah, blah, blah. Anyway, it can be done. I am actually doing it right now for a competition in November. Start lean or get lean and the build muscle, not the other way around.
I think "a lot of gym time" might be a bit antiquated as well.
As long as you are doing a progressive load lifting program aka the right program you can do that recomp without gaining fat.
On a bulk you will gain some fat that is to be expected...you are in a surplus but you can minimize fat gains by doing a "clean slow" bulk.2 -
Regardless of what people tell you whether you can or cannot eat at a deficit and loose fat while gaining muscle at the same time, you're seeing the results. Just keep doing what you're doing and enjoy the positive changes in your body. You'll continue getting stronger and continue losing fat as you build muscle. How long this will continue is the question, and you can address that when you get there.3
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It's the same as people who say muscle weighs more than fat.. it does not it is more dense than fat.. with density being a function of mass and volume.. You can CONVERT fat to muscle while losing weight. Look at long distance runners...we are all lean as hell, and we are almost exclusively muscle.1
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also i don't trust any website source unless it ends in .edu or .gov. Years of research has made me very good at discerning the *kitten* on the internet.1
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Tropicoolblonde wrote: »It's the same as people who say muscle weighs more than fat.. it does not it is more dense than fat.. with density being a function of mass and volume.. You can CONVERT fat to muscle while losing weight. Look at long distance runners...we are all lean as hell, and we are almost exclusively muscle.
no you can't convert fat to muscle...wth...two different tissue types...smh
regardless of long distance runners being mainly muscle doesn't mean you have built muscle...it means you have lost enough fat to reveal it.
Two different things cause I can guarantee LD runners are not building much muscle.5 -
The "yes you can" and "no you can't" positions are referring to completely different circumstances. That's the mian reason for the confusion.7
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Tropicoolblonde wrote: »It's the same as people who say muscle weighs more than fat.. it does not it is more dense than fat.. with density being a function of mass and volume.. You can CONVERT fat to muscle while losing weight. Look at long distance runners...we are all lean as hell, and we are almost exclusively muscle.
if you could convert fat to muscle then obese people who start lifting while obese would become ripped. it doesnt work that way.5 -
I think from what I have read you cannot technically convert muscle into fat although the recomp process seems to be similar to that but instead of the fat actually converting your body will use the fat as energy to repair your muscles. Thanks everyone for the advice though. I think that I am going to continue with my cardio routine and change up my strength training a little just to make it more consistent. My goal of course it to gain muscle but as long as I am getting stronger and losing weight then I am okay with that for now because I still have about 100lbs to lose3
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My take is it's not that you're converting fat cells into muscle cells, it's that you're building muscle cells through lifting weights and you're body is burning the fat cells to power the new muscle cells.5
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terryt1992 wrote: »I think from what I have read you cannot technically convert muscle into fat although the recomp process seems to be similar to that but instead of the fat actually converting your body will use the fat as energy to repair your muscles. Thanks everyone for the advice though. I think that I am going to continue with my cardio routine and change up my strength training a little just to make it more consistent. My goal of course it to gain muscle but as long as I am getting stronger and losing weight then I am okay with that for now because I still have about 100lbs to lose
trust me losing weight while still lifting will change how your body looks. Im smaller at a larger weight than I was at a lower weight.I dont think I would have been able to accomplish that without lifting.4 -
CharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »Tropicoolblonde wrote: »It's the same as people who say muscle weighs more than fat.. it does not it is more dense than fat.. with density being a function of mass and volume.. You can CONVERT fat to muscle while losing weight. Look at long distance runners...we are all lean as hell, and we are almost exclusively muscle.
if you could convert fat to muscle then obese people who start lifting while obese would become ripped. it doesnt work that way.
Sure it does... Lots of obese people who start lifting while obese become ripped...
Not all of them. but enough to invalidate your assertion1 -
stanmann571 wrote: »CharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »Tropicoolblonde wrote: »It's the same as people who say muscle weighs more than fat.. it does not it is more dense than fat.. with density being a function of mass and volume.. You can CONVERT fat to muscle while losing weight. Look at long distance runners...we are all lean as hell, and we are almost exclusively muscle.
if you could convert fat to muscle then obese people who start lifting while obese would become ripped. it doesnt work that way.
Sure it does... Lots of obese people who start lifting while obese become ripped...
Not all of them. but enough to invalidate your assertion
you cannot change fat tissue into muscle tissue. they can build muscle and lose the fat and look more muscular,also a lot of them build muscle by carrying all that weight around so what you see after they lose the fat is that muscle.you cant change one type of tissue into anything type of tissue/muscle,etc. so no it doesnt invalidate my assertion.7 -
I think the reason people keep repeating in these forums that you can't get muscle while in a deficit (which is untrue; you can) is that they are confusing this with the fact that you can't get heavier and claim it's muscle while on a deficit (which is true, you can't).
In case I was not clear to answer your question - there isn't any science behind it. It is not true.5 -
moonstroller wrote: »My take is it's not that you're converting fat cells into muscle cells, it's that you're building muscle cells through lifting weights and you're body is burning the fat cells to power the new muscle cells.
edited for misreading0 -
CharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »Tropicoolblonde wrote: »It's the same as people who say muscle weighs more than fat.. it does not it is more dense than fat.. with density being a function of mass and volume.. You can CONVERT fat to muscle while losing weight. Look at long distance runners...we are all lean as hell, and we are almost exclusively muscle.
if you could convert fat to muscle then obese people who start lifting while obese would become ripped. it doesnt work that way.
If they eat at maintenance they will become after a long time. Surely you've heard of recomp?
The conversion is not direct of course. The fat is converted into energy which with the aminoacids you ingest is turned into muscle mass when you train progressively.2 -
Here's five examples from personal experience:
1/ Teenage to early 20's - male primed for easy, fast muscle growth. Relatively few training years. "Getting in shape" meant gaining muscle size whilst losing fat for overall weight loss. Probably an element of training harder than most people and perhaps somewhat genetically gifted.
2/ Age 31 - recovering from major injury and months on crutches. Quickly regained 3" of a 5" loss of quad circumference whilst losing some of the weight I had gained.
3/ Early 40's - switch up of exercise routine, far more volume, slow weight loss. Modest but measurable/noticeable muscle size gains and small weight loss.
4/ Early 50's - returning to a previous training level, very small calorie deficit, working hard in the gym, good protein intake. Six months gaining approx. 1lb muscle and losing 2lbs of fat per month.
5/ Age 57 - more intelligent exercise programming (thanks SideSteal....), very small calorie deficit. Gained some size in arms and chest, lost fat, lost a little weight.
Really if you are over fat, under trained (under a previous level or current genetic potential), have a small deficit, good protein intake, work hard in the gym and don't expect to look like Arnie then yes it's possible, especially for males.
And the worst that might happen if you do all the right things is achieving the personal best that you could have - whether that's adding a little muscle or preserving the maximum amount you could is really irrelevant.9
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFo_wQq8M3Q
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